Business Vehicle at Fault, Who Is Responsible, The Driver?

billadm on 24/01/2024 - 10:42

So I believe that the title explains why I created this thread.
I know (I assume) what business owns the vehicle because it had the brand name printed on it so I was lucky.
A pick up vehicle with obfuscated (intentionally?) number plate by dust, as usual…..

I exchanged a few e-mails with the business, they asked me for evidence then no more communication.
I made a complaint to Police, they asked me for evidence so that they could run an investigation, I contacted them 3 times already but still no action since mid of December 2023.
So before I take any action I need to know who is responsible, the business or the driver?
Is Police obliged to give me the information or can they troll me all the way around?
Feel free to ask questions related to the incident if you want to just please avoid the useless chit chatting.

Automotive

closed Comments

  • WoodYouLikeSomeCash on 24/01/2024 - 10:49
    +8

    The company is responsible, the is a legal principle known as Vicarious Liability. Nonetheless your car insurance company (assuming this is a car accident) should be able to handle this for you.

    • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 08:35

      I beg to differ
      The driver is always at fault.
      It is the driver that has caused the offense and the damage.
      Vehicles themselves are not entities and cannot drive themselves.
      Companies and not people and cannot drive vehicles either.

      However usually the insurer of the vehicle covers both the owner and driver of the business vehicle.
      The owner of the vehicle would usually take responsibility for the driver whom they have authorised to drive the vehicle.
      Hence OP must direct his claim to the owner of the vehicle who will lodge a claim aganist their insurer.

      But OP wants to know who is at fault….

      This is decided by the insurance companies and depends on the evidence submitted - NOT by what OP claims.
      OP hopefully has taken photographic evidence and has a video statement from the driver acknowledging fault.
      The matter could go to court if there is any dispute.

      Now since OP is foolish enough to not have insurance (SHAME SHAME SHAME) and hence no legal representation, OP might find they are found to be at fault and have the business insurer chasing them for damages.

      YES this is a likely outcome dear OP.

      How many times has the OB community scalded posters for not having car insurance????
      The saying goes:

      if you cant afford car insurnace then you cant afford to be driving a car!

      All I can say is GOOD LUCK!
      You will definitely need it.

      • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 09:48
        -8

        if you cant afford car insurnace then you cant afford to be driving a car!

        That is plain rude and stupid firstly because you have no rights to judge people other than these in your family circle.
        You came here with the choice of giving advices or just move along.
        Secondly, you don't know people's background so again you have no right to judge.
        And finally, if your statement make any sense, I could say if you can't afford to pay for your girlfriend's expensive and luxurious habits so you can't afford a girlfriend!

        • kiitos on 25/01/2024 - 10:47

          It's not a judgement, it's advice. You take a big risk not having insurance, as you can't control what other drivers do and get left with the consequences, like now.

          And I don't see the correlation with the girlfriend analogy.

          And I didn't neg you.

          • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 17:58

            @kiitos: Dont worry
            As I have indicated OP will be paying the consquences for his lack of responsibility in a very big way.
            OP is about to discover the true meaning of RUDE when the other drivers' insurance company sends OP the bill for the damage to the other vehicle.
            And OP is worried about the damege to his vehicle - thats so laughable!

            Yes this happens OP
            Its the high price you will pay for skimping on car insurance
            Not even third party property.
            The OB community frowns on this

              • Euphemistic on 25/01/2024 - 19:22

                @billadm: If you cannot afford insurance for your car, you should consider not driving. Not having insurance is a recipe for financial ruin.

  • 87percent on 24/01/2024 - 11:18
    +3

    do you actually have proof of the accident?

  • JMosk on 24/01/2024 - 11:21
    +3

    Did you exchange contact details with the driver at the time of the accident?

  • Baysew on 24/01/2024 - 11:24
    +3

    Are you insured?

    • WoodYouLikeSomeCash on 24/01/2024 - 12:06
      +6

      Yes it's but unfortunately I don't have car insurance.

      🤦 Please correct this ASAP OP for futures sake.

        • FocusRider on 24/01/2024 - 12:23
          +15

          Then you can't afford to drive a car..

            • FocusRider on 25/01/2024 - 15:51
              +1

              @billadm: What are you dribbling on about?

              If you can’t afford insurance you can’t afford to drive simple as that. Let’s say you hit a Mercedes and the repairs cost $20k.. Can you afford to pay for this? I’m guessing NO since you can’t even fork out money for third party insurance.

                • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:00

                  @billadm: Time to boot OP off this platform
                  OP has proven himself to be a TROLL

        • AustriaBargain on 24/01/2024 - 14:04

          If you were not at fault then would you need to pay any excess at all? The business if not the driver's own insurance would pay.

          • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:07

            @AustriaBargain: OP claims they are not at fault
            The way OP is trolling everyone you can guess its OP thats at fault
            Especially as they are uninsured.
            So OP has no legal defense to back him up
            Insurance companies are not charities.
            The business insurer will rely on thier driver's story which is certain to be different to OP's.

            Then OP will receive a bill for the damage caused to the other vehicle.
            So OP must either pay the bill or take it to court and suffer the legal costs as well.
            with no guarantee of winning against the insurer's legal eagles.

            You really have to laugh at fools that drive cars without car insurance of any kind.
            And they are a menace to society because they have no money to pay for the damage they cause.

              • FocusRider on 25/01/2024 - 19:28

                @billadm: is plain rude and stupid firstly because you have no rights to judge people other than these in your family circle.
                You came here with the choice of giving advices or just move along.
                Secondly, you don't know people's background so again you have no right to judge.
                And finally, if your statement make any sense, I could say if you can't afford to pay for your girlfriend's expensive and luxurious habits so you can't afford a girlfriend!

        • blitz on 24/01/2024 - 14:38

          I was looking for a third party insurance but prices went insane since last year

          Insurance is only expensive if you don't need it. Now you need to do all your own legwork, in addition to managing the stress of the whole situation. What if you'd hit something really expensive?

          Shop around for a good quote with a well-known insurer (not Youi) and buy yourself some peace of mind.

          • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:09

            @blitz: Too late

            OP now has an accident on record.
            It matters not who is at fault.
            So insurance costs for OP just doubled
            That is if OP can even get insurnace now.

            But you have to wonder why Op claims 3rd party insurnace was so expensive
            Says a lot about OP's driving record really

    • AustriaBargain on 24/01/2024 - 14:02
      +6

      You really should have got comprehensive insurance, would save you a lot of bother right now. You could be sitting back drinking beers while your insurer does all this running about figuring out what's what.

      • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:14

        Drinking beers???
        Not before driving.

        Dont forget its not settled as to who is at fault.
        OP claims the other driver was at fault.
        I can assure you that the other driver will be claiming OP is at fault.

        Legal representation is where acr insurance has its greatest value!

        OP doesnt even have that

        But nonetheless
        OP will certainly be drinking beers and getting drunk right now.
        But not for the reasons you have stated.

  • El cheepo on 24/01/2024 - 12:31
    +1

    Is the accident clearly visible on the dashcam?

    If so, are you sure they were legally at fault?

    What was the accident?

    • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:15

      OP has gone into hiding

      Chastised by the OP community for not having any car insurance whatsover

        • El cheepo on 25/01/2024 - 19:19
          +1

          K.

          Not what i asked, but sure.

          I can see why the police and others want nothing to do with helping you.

  • original15 on 24/01/2024 - 12:42

    Gunna need to share some of the screenshots here (blurring any business details) so we can give advice

    • smalltime0 on 25/01/2024 - 11:15
      +1

      Also a MS paint diagram

  • Baysew on 24/01/2024 - 12:42

    What is the cost to repair your car?

  • solidussnake on 24/01/2024 - 14:24
    +2

    Hopefully the cost of saving all that insurance money will make it worth your time chasing them

    • dtxau on 24/01/2024 - 15:30

      Just paid mine for another year. Thanks for the reminder OP.

  • Euphemistic on 24/01/2024 - 16:06
    +2

    How bad is the damage?

    Get a quote for the repairs. Send a letter of demand to the business. Be prepared for them to ignore it. take them to court if necessary. You’ll have to do a lot of work yourself.

    OR cop it on the chin and get insurance for next time.

    • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 09:37

      Be prepared for them to ignore it

      Police also is ignoring me after they agreed to investigate the incident.

      • skullster704 on 25/01/2024 - 10:07

        You don’t give any details of the “evidence” that you’ve provided to the police. Beyond your assertion that the other vehicle is at fault you’ve not provided any detail as to why you believe this. It certainly reads like “I think I’m a good driver so it must be their fault”.

        The police may have looked at your “evidence” and decided that:-
        1) it looks like you are at fault, or
        2) the evidence is unclear either way, or
        3) the damage to your car is of low value so not within their remit to investigate, or
        4) the damage to your car is less important than allocation of resources to other investigations.

        To paraphrase- your lack of planning and preparation doesn’t make it important to other agencies.

        • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 10:34
          -2

          To paraphrase- your lack of planning and preparation doesn’t make it important to other agencies.

          What agencies are you talking about?
          Regarding the Police, whether your opinions apply or not, they are still ignoring me.
          By the way, give me an example of any lack of planning or preparation in your life that didn't deserve support from some kind of public funded agencies?

          • skullster704 on 25/01/2024 - 11:09

            @billadm: They are not my opinions they are a selection of possible reasons, one or none of which may apply in this case.

            My life isn’t perfect, but I do take responsibility for picking up the pieces and moving onward.

            “Deserve” is such a big word, full of self righteousness and pomposity. It implies that you believe that the spending of public funds on your car crash is more important than spending it on something else.

            In this case you appear to believe that because you didn’t have insurance (for whatever reason) it should be important to the police to investigate. It obviously isn’t.

            Even if the police conduct an investigation, find the other party apparently at fault, charge them, and secure a conviction, the police are still not required to provide you (as a random person) any of the evidence for you to then pursue as civil claim, and may be breaking privacy laws if they do.

            If you wanted a crash investigation to be a priority then you could pay for someone to conduct it, either prior to the crash (insurance), or after the crash (lawyer, private investigator), or do the investigation yourself and take it to civil court.

            Public funded agencies have a responsibility to strive for the efficient, equitable, and just allocation of limited tax funded resources. Doing a crash investigation because you didn’t have insurance doesn’t strike me as equitable or just.

            • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 11:39

              @skullster704: But Police is still ignoring me, they could easily say sorry we can't help you!

              • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:20

                @billadm: There is no case to answer
                Police dont have to do anything when it comes to car accidents.
                Only when someone is injured. which there wasnt luckily.

                So that is another huge error of judgement on your part OP.

                Get ready to receive a letter of demand for the damage you caused to the other vehicle mate.

                They have the lawyers on the case.
                You have nothing.
                Now suffer the consequences (for acting so irresponsibly) like a man!

    • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:18

      And the other driver's insurers will be doing the same!

      But with the insurer's expert lawyers on the case.

      Imagine all the laughter in the room when the insurer receives OP's poorly written letter of demand and without any legal backing.

      I know who will come out worse with this one.

      • Euphemistic on 25/01/2024 - 18:21

        And then OP shows dashcam footage of other party at fault? (Assuming OP is correct as to who was at fault)

        • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:27

          my friend
          OP cant even afford a dashcam. No mention of one in OPs post

          And dashcams catch very little in reality
          Only whats immediately in front of the camera
          For example they dont capture whether you indicated to turn,
          nor if your brake lights dont work,
          nor what happened beside you
          nor what happening behind you.

          And you cannot assume anything regarding fault.
          The insurer will believe thier client's version of what happened and take action accordingly

          Remember that OP has no legal represenation either

          • Euphemistic on 25/01/2024 - 19:24

            @HeWhoKnows: Missed that. Thought I’d read that OP had a dashcam but couldn’t get the rego off the footage.

        • Euphemistic on 25/01/2024 - 19:25

          It is not rude. It is stupid to drive a car without insurance. If you cannot afford to insure your car at least third party then you should not be driving.

          It is not rude. It is valuable advice.

  • Myone888 on 25/01/2024 - 08:14

    It’s shocking to know you are NOT insured! Car regulations need to be revised

    • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 09:35
      -6

      It’s shocking to know you are NOT insured!

      Dude nothing illegal, I advise you look at different forum threads for chit chat trolling.

      • Euphemistic on 25/01/2024 - 18:21
        +2

        It’s not illegal, but it’s pretty dumb not to be insured. If you’ve read any other of the ‘I got in a crash’ threads on here you’d find out that non insured drivers are told in no uncertain terms that you should have insurance.

      • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:32

        Best OP doesnt refer to people trying to offer advice as "dude"

        its very insulting

  • dkwon10 on 25/01/2024 - 10:09

    Can you upload the evidence?
    And how much it cost to repair your car?

  • smalltime0 on 25/01/2024 - 11:26

    "I made a complaint to Police, they asked me for evidence so that they could run an investigation, I contacted them 3 times already but still no action since mid of December 2023.
    So before I take any action I need to know who is responsible, the business or the driver?
    Is Police obliged to give me the information or can they troll me all the way around?"

    Ideally you inform the Police at the time of the accident, they'd basically determine if they needed to attend (it doesn't sound like it in this case) but they'd likely jot it down in an incident report. At least in WA you are suppose to have done this within 48 hours of the incident occurring. In WA you can attach photos and videos of the incident on the online submission tool, along with the other party's details and a description of what occurred. They determine if they require further information, and will contact you if that is the case. https://www.crashreport.com.au/ocrf/

    The Police don't need to give any information to you unless you take this further (court etc.), as others have said you need to follow this up with the driver/business. If the business/driver ignore you, you send them a letter of demand via registered post (i.e. they have to sign their receipt of it).

    • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 13:46

      I did everything you advised in regards to the Police, the standing point is that I was told to wait 2-3 days, then I called again and again, e-mail sent too, they could simply say sorry we can't help.
      Not a professional and community's friendly and welcoming attitude by the Police.

    • HeWhoKnows on 25/01/2024 - 18:34

      Police only get involved if some is injured.
      They leave the rest to the insurance companies.

        • Euphemistic on 25/01/2024 - 19:26
          +1

          I like how you’ve copied this response and posted it time and again.

          The fact you’ve had to paste it lots of times should be telling you something.

          GET INSURANCE!

          One minor slip and an at fault incident could push you from not being able to afford insurance to bankruptcy.

  • backpaqer on 25/01/2024 - 12:40

    It's a learning experience. Without insurance, it's you who has to do all the running around, chasing people up, engaging solicitors and possibly not having a car for a very long time. With insurance, you simply pay your excess (even if it isn't your fault) and get your car fixed, let your insurance company do all the leg work and then when they determine that you really weren't at fault, they give you back your excess.

    With "self-insurance", you go through the stages of "please give me money" to "show me the money" (formal letter of demand) - you can do this yourself, or engage a solicitor, through to having to go to court. If you're going to fix your car anyway - you give the other party the chance to review quotes and pick one and give them a reasonable chance to do so and when they demonstrably avoid doing so - you pick one and get your car fixed out of your own pocket (if you can afford it) or at least get it so the police aren't going to pull your car off the road for being unroadworthy. In court, unless the other party did something completely heinous like running a stop sign or red light where you have 0% chance of avoiding a collision then the judge will look at things like if a reasonable person had a chance of avoiding the collision and if so, they start apportioning blame and it is entirely likely that if there's any grey areas in your story, video footage or documentation…you'll be both told to walk away and wear your own costs.

    So now that you know this lesson…will you keep driving without insurance?

  • Garry044 on 25/01/2024 - 18:58

    From a review of the thread, it looks like the OP hasn't mentioned dashcams at all. So from a police/investigative/legal perspective, unless there are independent/corroborating witnesses OR an injury then it is extremely unlikely that this will be a priority for investigation by the authorities.

    OP - in my experience (VIC) - the police are generally overworked and inundated with requests to investigate/prosecute/penalise on behalf of people who have been wronged, offended or had property stolen/damaged or otherwise. Sheer logistics means they cannot possibly follow up on every single case as quickly as complainants would like, nor as quickly as they offer to (as it will be frequently be overtaken in priority by something else that happens the next hour/day etc).

    The consensus of advice in this thread is correct (even though it's unfortunately not going to help you out) - in the absence of corroborating independent evidence, it is at best going to be your word against the other driver's. From a legal perspective, that means both cancel each other out. Usually in these situations, it comes down to the insurance companies and their settlements teams and lawyers to negotiate an outcome (this is ultimately what premiums and excess fees fund). In the absence of insurance, it means you're exposed to these costs if you choose to self-insure (regardless of the reasons why).

    No judgement in the above - these are simply the facts of the matter.

    As I see it, you likely have a couple of options:
    a) Actively follow up with the police - this will involve calling the station and speaking with the officer you reported it to, or chasing the report number on a daily basis and becoming a pain in their neck until it becomes a priority and you either get an answer, or confirmation that they won't investigate further.
    b) Try to force the hand of the business by sending a letter of demand as others have suggested and take up the follow-up path and escalation yourself. The risk here is that they will counter-claim (if they haven't already claimed), which may expose you to defending accusations of being at-fault.
    c) Seek out evidence from nearby businesses or council locations with CCTV that may have captured the crash and could supply independent corroboration around who was at fault. This could help in either/both a) and b).

    Otherwise, the only alternative I can see is to let it go.

    • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 19:26
      -1

      Thanks for the advices but my main concern is who liable, the business or the driver?

      • Rahonui on 25/01/2024 - 19:39
        +1

        No-one here can give you the slightest idea who is liable as there are no details of the "accident"

      • El cheepo on 25/01/2024 - 19:59

        Judging by your attitude here, you are probably liable.

        Was probably you at fault and now your looking for some unfounded confirmation bias.

      • Baysew on 25/01/2024 - 20:11
        +1

        The first two replies state that the business is liable as Vicarious liability - a legal concept that holds an employer responsible for the actions of their employees or agents. (In one of your other posts, you said didn't get the drivers details anyway.)

        I suggest you get a quote or two for the damage and send a letter of demand to the business. (I wouldn't wait for anything from the police, it's probably not going to be very timely or of any help)

  • Garry044 on 25/01/2024 - 19:35
    +1

    The driver of the vehicle is responsible for their actions under criminal law (e.g. speeding tickets, dangerous/culpable/drunk driving).

    In the case of an accident where damages are concerned, whoever is at fault is usually liable. In most cases, vehicle owners have purchased an insurance policy in order to limit their liability/exposure. Where the vehicle owner is a company, it is dependent on the terms of their policy who is liable - e.g. driver vs company.

    For example - I know of instances where company cars have been involved in accidents (rear-ending someone through following too closely) and the company took care of it - no impact to the employee. I know of other instances (different company) where the company car was damaged and the employee had to pay the excess on the insurance claim. That's usually between the employee and the company.

    AFAIK, there's no hard and fast rule that can be applied to determine it.

    • billadm on 25/01/2024 - 20:33
      -1

      In the mean time I contacted again the Police because I need the details of the other vehicle and the driver.

  • BeamMeUp on 25/01/2024 - 21:07

    TLDR. Why is it too long, OP keeps reposting the same lame reply. 🥱

    • dkwon10 on 25/01/2024 - 22:35
      +1

      I think op only want us to tell him what he wants to hear. He didn't provide additional information when asked. he was probably the one at fault therefore refuse to provide footage or diagram

  • Leanne59 on 25/01/2024 - 22:51

    Then you can't afford to drive a car

    That is plain rude and stupid firstly because you have no rights to judge people other than these in your family circle.
    You came here with the choice of giving advices or just move along.
    Secondly, you don't know people's background so again you have no right to judge.
    And finally, if your statement make any sense, I could say if you can't afford to pay for your girlfriend's expensive and luxurious habits so you can't afford a girlfriend!

  • El cheepo on 26/01/2024 - 01:35

    This has to be the most boring troll thread of 2024 so far.

    The only saving grace could be this making it to the main page because of all his spam replies and OP getting roasted a bit more.

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