Stormwater not connected to street - Builders warranty as second owner

DrakeIsEasyListening on 12/01/2024 - 11:26
Last edited 12/01/2024 - 15:24
  • House originally built in 2020, located in VIC
  • I am second home owner, purchased last year
  • Recently we had some storms which flooded one side of the house and garage
  • Noticed the appropriately positioned stormwater drain wasn't draining at all
  • Called the local plumber and with a camera has determined that the stormwater pipe is capped and not connected to the street drain. Doh
  • The endcap is located underneath my exposed aggregate concrete driveway - getting access will require jackhammering a hole in the driveway.
  • It appears the water slowly filters out of the capped pipe (perhaps the endcap isn't tightly screwed on?) - so there has been water leeching underneath the concrete driveway and potentially the garage slab, depending where the leak is.

The plumber mentioned I have some rights under warranty, even not being the original homeowner, as its clearly a defect, rather than an issue that's come up through lack of maintenance.

Is it just as simple as contacting the builder for a warranty claim? Anything to watch out for?

Ideally I'd like:

  • Stormwater properly connected
  • New driveway, as you can't patch existing exposed aggregate concrete without a noticeable change in color/aesthetic
  • Structural inspection of that section of the house to ensure slab is still fit for purpose. Any defects found to be rectified by the builder.
  • The cost of the local plumber who discovered the issue

EDIT:

Update:

Spoke to the VBA (Victorian Building Authority for interstate people):

  • The plumbing is defective (rather than the building having a defect), so VBA indicated the builder would just refer me to the plumber who completed the works for a claim
  • Turns out VBA can provide you with plumbers details based on the VBA plumbing completion of works certificate (which I have a copy of).
  • If I don't get a satisfactory response from the plumber, I can go directly to the plumbers insurance company for a defective work claim.

It's a bit odd to me that the VBA was certain the builder has no responsibility here. Can anyone comment?

eg. If I buy a broken Samsung TV from JB Hi Fi, I would go back to JB Hi Fi for the warranty claim not Samsung.

Home & Garden

Comments

  • jv on 12/01/2024 - 11:28
    +5

    pipe is capped

    Doh

    • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/01/2024 - 11:31
      +8

      friday arvo job if i ever did hear of one haha

    • payless69 on 12/01/2024 - 12:41

      you got the first letter right and the length of the word.

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/01/2024 - 11:29
    +8

    ok…in this crazy house of cards that is the Australian building industry - first question - does builder still exist…

  • Gunther on 12/01/2024 - 11:29
    +9

    https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/licensing-and-registration/b…
    The Building Act 1993 allows action to be brought against a builder for up to 10 years from the date the work was completed. This right transfers to a new owner if the property is sold within this time.

    https://avid.com.au/news/builders-warranty-in-victoria-what-…
    The Finer Details
    It doesn’t matter how much your build ends up costing – any domestic building project is covered under the basic builders warranty, regardless of whether there was a written contract. Also, the warranty transfers to any new owners for up to 10 years following the work’s completion

    • ThithLord on 12/01/2024 - 12:14

      Good luck, OP. Hope you can stick it too 'em to rectify

  • skid on 12/01/2024 - 11:33
    +5

    The builder concreted the driveway and then realised the stormwater hadn't been connected. The first owner obviously knew, tried to get it fixed under warrantty unsuccessfully and didn't disclose it in the sale. Building inspection didn't pick it up either.

    • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/01/2024 - 11:41
      +1

      Building inspection didn't pick it up either

      to be fair, my SIL found out the hard way recently building inspections mean basically F all these days it seems…

      The last guy we used was super thorough and literally went everywhere to check everything, unfortunately he has been retired for years.

      • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 12:16
        +2

        to be fair, my SIL found out the hard way recently building inspections mean basically F all these days it seems…

        Yep, they are all all care and no responsibility. Whoops we missed termites eating your house, too bad.

      • ihbh on 12/01/2024 - 12:27
        +7

        How do you expect a building inspector to pick this up in normal circumstances for normal fee - that is, not spend days on the inspection?

    • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 12:17

      The first owner obviously knew, tried to get it fixed under warrantty unsuccessfully and didn't disclose it in the sale

      If you're trying to say the owner sold the house because of this defect, then I doubt it. Even at $20-30k to rip up the driveway, fix the drain, and redo the driveway, it is still cheaper than selling and moving house.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/01/2024 - 12:34
        +3

        having moved twice, i would (and still) bear a lot of issues just to avoid the hassle that is moving house lol

    • iDroid on 12/01/2024 - 15:08
      +1

      Building inspection didn't pick it up either

      You'll be lucky if a building inspector even gets out of the car.

    • 2esc on 13/01/2024 - 09:09
      +3

      Building inspections dont normally involve sending cameras up pipes.

      When i bought my house i discovered when they constructed it they must have rolled in the trenches to compact the soil problem is most of the pipes were half crushed having to dig them up was a right pain by hand as property has a lot of established trees/plants i wanted to keep.

      While putting the new pipes in i added 6 inspection points that the pipes can also be cleaned from.

      Its not expensive to add these inspection points but properties rarely have them or in ideal locations.

      My inspection points are also on a angle so its easy to send plumbing rods down to clean if required.

      Each pipe on my proposal can be cleaned out with no digging required most have a potplant hiding the access cap.

  • Porker on 12/01/2024 - 11:46
    +5

    HA!.. I thought it was just me, but I had very similar issue however, the section of underground storm water pipe was not connected and the location was in the middle of my garden. Easy enough to fix, right? They removed the lawn and started digging only to find a concrete slab on top of the disconnected pipe section.

    Both the plumber and builder started to tell me that it was an old section of concrete from the demolished house that wasn't removed by the demolition crew blah blah. I said that it seemed odd that the installation plumber stop the pipe there for that reason (I knew their answer was BS). Then we discovered that the whole garden/lawn is sitting on concrete slab (oddly) and so I politely explained that it would be impossible to lay any section of pipe under that slab unless it was poured on top of the pipes - the pipe section leading to the disconnect was also buried under concrete.

    Plumber/Builder brought a jackhammer to break open the concrete and connect the pipes. Fortunately for me, unlike you OP, the ground/lawn could easily be restored. My less than 5 year old house has had a whole host of issues.

    I can't provide any insight or guidance, only perhaps comfort in knowing that you're not alone (?)

  • MS Paint on 12/01/2024 - 11:49
    +8

    Get Site Inspections on the case. He would be all over this.

    • Porker on 12/01/2024 - 11:51
      +2

      As it were, I fully intend to get this guy in on my next build! New build doesn't mean good build (above reply)

    • EightImmortals on 12/01/2024 - 12:02

      Thanks for that link. :)

    • DrakeIsEasyListening on 12/01/2024 - 12:24

      Ha. If I can't get any action on the repairs I'll shoot him a message

    • Miami Mall Alien on 12/01/2024 - 18:10
      +2

      I smell non-complianceeeeeeee…

  • EightImmortals on 12/01/2024 - 11:51
    +5

    Defect?

    How about gross incompetence?

    Shouldn't the plumber have checked the end of the pipe?
    Shouldn't the guys who laid the driveway have noticed what they were laying it on top of? "Hey should that drain pipe still be capped"?
    Is it normal to lay pipes under driveways anyway? How plumber get access to repairs without ripping up the driveway?

    So many questions, so little time….

    • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/01/2024 - 12:18
      +6

      Shouldn't the guys who laid the driveway

      being concreters …who probably sub out the work to the cheapest bidder who get the cheapeast workers that was probably zero forks were given.

      builder: concrete the driveway
      concreters: u got it

    • Nugs on 12/01/2024 - 12:21
      +2

      OR, driveway installed after building done, driveway people broke and capped pipe before laying concrete to hide issue?
      .

    • ihbh on 12/01/2024 - 12:31
      +1

      Perverse incentive - concreters came out with material; wouldn't be paid if work not done; can't afford to waste a day/job - after fix could go to someone else.

  • theHMASfriendship on 12/01/2024 - 11:57
    +2

    Contact VBA for advice https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/

    • DrakeIsEasyListening on 12/01/2024 - 12:25
      +1

      I'll definitely be doing that

    • jv on 12/01/2024 - 12:32
      +17

      Contact VBA for advice

      Or just use C++.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/01/2024 - 12:43
        +2

        ok this one made me laugh. take my upvote.

      • stashman on 15/01/2024 - 00:15

        C++? For an overloaded drain maybe; this just needs to be unblocked. Connect with C.

      • cameldownunder on 15/01/2024 - 09:48

        MS Basic

  • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 12:12

    Is it just as simple as contacting the builder for a warranty claim?

    Basically. Lodge a claim and see what they say. Don't expect them to 'jump' at fixing it.

    I'll be honest on the next section.

    Ideally I'd like:
    Stormwater properly connected

    You might get this done in the next 12 months.

    New driveway, as you can't patch existing exposed aggregate concrete without a noticeable change in color/aesthetic

    Did the builder do the driveway? If not, zero chance of getting that done.

    Structural inspection of that section of the house to ensure slab is still fit for purpose. Any defects found to be rectified by the builder.

    The builder won't pay for that, you'll have to pay for that if you want it done, also best of luck with having the defects fixed, you are 4 years old, its basically a structural warranty now.

    The cost of the local plumber who discovered the issue

    LOL nope not going to happen.

    Did the plumber give you any options? Could you connect into the drain pipe before it enters under the driveway?

    • holdenmg on 12/01/2024 - 12:31
      +3

      A possible work around is to cap the downpipe, drop another downpipe into the gutter.

      I had a long gutter with downpipes with insufficient diameter to evacuate the water from a long roof/gutter.
      (Cheapass builders).

      So I ran in an extra downpipe and connected it to a rainwater tank. This got the water off and away and the bonus was fresh rainwater for the garden. Then you need to run a pipe off the tank for the excess into deep drainage.

      Good luck with it all.

      • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 14:06
        +1

        Yes that is what I'm thinking as well. Leave that down pipe as is and either divert it before it goes under the driveway or install extra down pipes to take the water away.

        Also thinking this is most likely what the builder might do too if they 'fix' it.

  • Drakesy on 12/01/2024 - 12:33

    I'd ask if it is allowed to feed into the council stormwater system.

    When i was in urban development i'd say 75-80% of lots were all to infiltrate on site with no direct connection to the council network permitted (unless it's emergency overflow but very rarely. This may be your case and the builder just undersized the soakwells and said she'll be right.

    I'd definitely look at your council's lot stormwater policy to look at the legalities of direct connection. Else put it back on the builder/developer.

    • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 14:08

      So when a stormwater system is not a stormwater system? What's the point if you can't direct storm water to it?

      • Drakesy on 12/01/2024 - 14:21

        In short

        The council's stormwater system is sized to cater for runoff from the streets and verges, stormwater systems such as soakwells for houses are sized to the house.

        Houses are to retain and infiltrate on site (except in extreme cases where outflow pipes are permitted in clay heavy soil). If everyone directly connected to the council's stormwater system, the drainage basins/lakes would be inundated immediately and would likely flood.

        • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 17:18
          +1

          stormwater systems such as soakwells

          Ahhh just noticed you're from the west. Carry on then….. Yes it's all different over there with your guys being built on sand. OP is in VIC, they have a storm water system that you are allowed to connect to.

          • Drakesy on 12/01/2024 - 17:40
            +1

            @JimmyF: Ohhh, yeah we have it pretty easy over here.

            • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 18:02

              @Drakesy: Yeah sand is a lot more forgiving for drainage! That is for sure!

          • cameldownunder on 15/01/2024 - 11:19
            +1

            @JimmyF: Was having the same thought. All the holes in the curb that I see around where I live ….

  • zoombie on 12/01/2024 - 13:59
    +1

    looking at your list of wanting, I'd say you're dreaming. This is australiaaa mateee, if any builder is willing to do all of that, they probably wouldn't have missed this issue.

  • apple2016 on 12/01/2024 - 14:05

    If you have insurance, let them handle it? they will chase up the builder

    • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 14:07
      +1

      House insurance doesn't cover this.

  • Tiredman on 12/01/2024 - 15:21

    Contact the builder as the house is still under warranty. If he is no operating anymore (normal for this shithole industry), go through VMIA.

  • DrakeIsEasyListening on 12/01/2024 - 15:24
    +2

    Update:

    Spoke to the VBA (Victorian Building Authority for interstate people):

    • The plumbing is defective (rather than the building having a defect), so VBA indicated the builder would just refer me to the plumber who completed the works for a claim
    • Turns out VBA can provide you with plumbers details based on the VBA plumbing completion of works certificate (which I have a copy of).
    • If I don't get a satisfactory response from the plumber, I can go directly to the plumbers insurance company for a defective work claim.

    It's a bit odd to me that the VBA was certain the builder has no responsibility here. Can anyone comment?

    eg. If I buy a broken Samsung TV from JB Hi Fi, I would go back to JB Hi Fi for the warranty claim not Samsung.

    • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/01/2024 - 15:48
      +1

      surely being the VBA they would know what they are on about…? maybe?

      As for the tv example, I think retail works different to construction. Though when we had issues with our office build, we still chased up the builder, who after months of calls and email chase up, did eventually arrange a sub contractor to come fix up the plumbing and joinery issues. I guess it wouldnt hurt to approach builder and plumber?

    • JimmyF on 12/01/2024 - 17:23

      It's a bit odd to me that the VBA was certain the builder has no responsibility here. Can anyone comment?

      Yeah I'm sure the VBA would know who is responsible, it's what they do all day long. But nothing is stopping you from talking to the builder about fixing it.

      If I don't get a satisfactory response from the plumber, I can go directly to the plumbers insurance company for a defective work claim.

      This is correct, but as someone who has been down this path many moons ago, it isn't a fast one. VBA will do an investigation, issue a repair order for the plumber etc, who if they don't fix it, will then pass on the insurance details to you to lodge a claim. Who oddly enough, will then complete the same steps as VBA, investigate the issue, issue an order to fix, before paying out for someone to fix it.

  • netjock on 12/01/2024 - 16:09
    +2

    It's a bit odd to me that the VBA was certain the builder has no responsibility here. Can anyone comment?

    It is because the builder would ask the plumber to fix it or plumber's insurance to pay out to fix it. The builder is not qualified to do the work.

    One thing about laws around responsibility is chain of responsibility or indemnity.

    If you buy a food product from supermarket and you get sick. You'll sue the supermarket and the supermarket will sue the supplier for indemnity and supplier insurance will pay out (only if they can't pay does the supermarket pick up the tab).

    That is why you'll see plumbers and electricians would carry their own insurance separate to builder (unless they are employees in house).

  • Euphemistic on 12/01/2024 - 19:24
    +2

    Aside from the whole warranty thing, it is possible to get a new pipe connected that doesn’t require disturbing the driveway? That is, cut off the existing pipe and connect a completely new one where it’ll be easy to dig up in the future.

    • DrakeIsEasyListening on 12/01/2024 - 21:31

      Not possible as far as I can tell. The entire length of pipe to the front of the property is either under a concrete footpath, garage slab or driveway.

      Currently all the stormwater pipes grade to the front of the house. If you abandoned it and tried to run stormwater pipes around behind the house and down the alternate side, you would be ripping up and replacing a 15m x 2.5m length of concrete footpath in the process. Perhaps this may be cheaper than a new driveway…..

      There is a small 0.3m gap for a garden bed between the concrete footpath and the fenceline on that side of the house however I’d assume there is a minimum offset clearance requirement for stormwater pipes that would prevent a plumber from installing pipe practically right underneath a side fence.

      • Euphemistic on 12/01/2024 - 23:13

        Look for the cheapest easiest route for a new pipe.

      • stashman on 15/01/2024 - 00:40

        You know what they say about "assume". "Practically under" is not "under". If there's a minimum distance, you might justify an exemption. (Hey, they've been known to happen! 🤔)

        Too much money/pain to miss a chance to save it, but that's just me.

  • HomerJ on 13/01/2024 - 08:53
    +1

    Where’s your “Legal Point of Discharge”? This will help determine where your pipes should be going

  • jonkvh on 13/01/2024 - 08:59
    +1

    I'd be having a go at the builder's supervisor, for not even picking it up in the first place.

    Everything on a building site happens in layers or stages, you can't go ahead to the next stage without Site Supervisor approval. Having done drainage on building sites a couple of times, it would have happened that, the drain plumber would have not bothered contacting the Site Manager about the concrete blocking the drain path. Be interested to see what was on the original plans, have you got those?

    • DrakeIsEasyListening on 13/01/2024 - 15:42
      +3

      Yeah I agree - there’s more failures here than just the individual plumber who forgot to connect the pipe.

      I do have the original civil and drainage plan. It shows the capped stormwater pipe is supposed to be connected and discharge to the front of the house.

  • JIMB0 on 13/01/2024 - 09:20
    -1

    Just connect it to the sewer system. Don't forget the water trap.

    • jonkvh on 13/01/2024 - 16:33
      +1

      Don't follow this advice.

      • JIMB0 on 13/01/2024 - 23:25

        If you don't put a water trap in you'll get found out when they blow smoke into the sewer and see it coming out of your down pipes.

  • Rahonui on 13/01/2024 - 10:47
    +1

    -It's a bit odd to me that the VBA was certain the builder has no responsibility here. Can anyone comment?

    The plumbing has a separate compliance certificate. The builder will never actually sign off on certain aspects, as they are done by the licensed trade involved. Pretty much any electrical, plumbing and often waterproofing items have certificates that state the work is compliant. What you have here is extremely dodgy!

    • jonkvh on 13/01/2024 - 16:34

      They signed off on it without inspecting anything. No one wants accept blame or the financial second fix bill.

      • Rahonui on 15/01/2024 - 11:28

        It's the plumbers fault - not the builder. The builder gets the certificate from the plumber, and signs off based on that. The builder doesnt need to inspect anything, thats what the compliance certificate is for

  • kiitos on 13/01/2024 - 11:03

    How many downpipes do you have? Do they all go straight underground around the house?

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