Fined for Turning Right at No Right Turn Sign in Medical Emergency (NSW)

BuBerryCo on 05/01/2024 - 16:15
Last edited 05/01/2024 - 17:12 by 1 other user

Hi everyone, as we were driving on a main road, our 10 month old baby started choking.

Distressed and needing to urgently attend to the baby, I turned right at a traffic light (on green turning arrow) into the entrance of an abandoned construction site and turned on the hazard lights. However, there was a "No Right Turn" sign (despite the green traffic light permitting the right turn).

I have dashcam footage with audio where my wife and I have stated "my son was choking". The police officer responded by saying you're close to home (we were a 5 minute drive from home). I then responded saying "do you want me to allow the baby to choke for that long". The officer responded "Hell no…". The cop was totally arrogant and ignored anything we had a to say. It's clear that no reasonable person would turn into the entrance of a construction site but for an emergency.

I've now been fined for disobeying NSW Roads Rule 91(2).

I would appreciate any suggestions or tips.

Many thanks,
Sand.

Automotive Traffic Infringement

Comments

  • belongsinforums on 06/01/2024 - 20:41

    interesting one. plz update if you beat the fine (or just pay it)

  • HelpMeiCantSee on 06/01/2024 - 20:59
    -3

    With the information provided, sounds like you were done by highway patrol- who are regarded poorly by pretty much any other department within police. You were just a number in his target for the day, and he was likely targeting that spot because of the confusion caused by the green light and no right turn.

    I would absolutely take it to court. A baby choking could self resolve in seconds, or be a true life threatening event. As reaponsible parents, you took immediate action to attend to what could reasonably seen as a potential emergency. In court, you can. Mention the dismissive and uncaring attitude of the officer which added to your distress at a high stress incident.

    This is clearly just another revenue raising fine- nothing to do with road safety, but enforcing a rule just because. This is exactly why they have discretion. HWP just love to use that excuse, it’s easy pickings. You weren’t in the (outer) hunter region and got done by “officer” smith? That bloke has literally ticketed his own mother.

    You did the right thing OP. I hope bubs is ok. Trust your gut. Always.

  • happydude on 06/01/2024 - 21:32
    +1

    A lot of shit answers here.

    NSW has the defence of necessity. If the magistrate was to decide this test was met then there would be a not guilty verdict.

    I can't predict which way the cards would fall but this is the test.

    The defence of necessity involves two questions that must be addressed: first, was the accused’s conduct in truth a response to a threat of death or serious injury; and second, if so, did the accused act honestly believing, on reasonable grounds, that it was necessary to do so to avoid the threatened death or serious injury

    https://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal…

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 07/01/2024 - 10:48
      +1

      And this, ladies and gentlefish, is a good example of why you shouldn't keyboard lawyer.

      • MS Paint on 07/01/2024 - 16:17

        I always use the disclaimer of IANAL when offering legal advice while keyboard lawyering.

  • Nebargains on 06/01/2024 - 21:58
    -5

    Love it, bunch of people who probably aren't parents, telling you how you should have responded from the comfort of their computer.

    • MS Paint on 06/01/2024 - 22:04
      +5

      Well, it is a generic public forum not a "new parents who panic" forum. You're going to get a mixed bag of responses for this very reason. FFS.

    • SydStrand on 07/01/2024 - 23:29
      +2

      Having kids doesn't automatically make one a good person, and it doesn't suddenly make your worries more legitimate. We all have friends and family we want to protect, but being a parent isn't a license to potentially endanger other road users just because you have a panic attack. The danger with letting people ignore road rules, is that you're allowing untrained laypeople to make medical decisions about what is and isn't worth worrying about, and guess what: they're usually wrong. I've worked in emergency and critical care, and the vast majority of paediatric walk-ins are time wasters, like the WebMD enthusiasts who think their colicky kid's appendix is about to burst, and abuse you for not rushing into theatre. Btw, hands up: anyone who's actually had appendicitis, or even knows anyone who's needed this surgery.

      What the OP should have done was have his wife call 000 while she was in the backseat, which could have actually given them medical advice, instead of wasting time arguing with a cop. If the OP's case is sound, he'll get off. If he was simply deemed as being irrational and careless, he'll eat the fine. But if he still truly believes his child was dying, then he can rationalise that as the 'right call,' so a $500 or so fine is a small price to pay for having a child survive a make-believe emergency.

  • bingsta on 06/01/2024 - 22:29
    +2

    And so that dashcam footage you were gonna post…??

  • Windows98 on 06/01/2024 - 23:00
    +4

    I'm confused. The child was choking and the cop pulled you over and they didn't see the child choking anymore or witness you out of the car to pick up or attend to the child?

  • OhToTheZee on 07/01/2024 - 08:40

    If you head backwards down the street on street view about 50m (this is more likely where the emergency for OP started) you can see it is quite a long slip lane with several right turn arrows, on the left hand side of the road are clear do not park signs as that is also a slip lane for left turn only. It's only when you get within metres to the actual intersection would you realise that an additional sign now says you can't turn right. Rather than having a no right turn, it needs to be a U-turn only when green arrow present and then can have XYZ vehicles excepted underneath.

  • TightAl on 07/01/2024 - 10:43
    +2

    Does the dashcam have the choking distress before the offier came along?
    Post to youtube

  • iknowtj on 07/01/2024 - 14:14
    +2

    As long as your dashcam picks up the choking and wife telling you to pull over you'll win the appeal imho.

    The common sense test says you didn't endanger anyone taking that turn and was probably best spot to park.

    If you don't have the footage and you only fired camera up when the cop arrived, you're screwed.

    • JimmyF on 07/01/2024 - 15:56
      +2

      Wife was in the back seat with the kid, OP didn't need to stop instantly to save the kid.

      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/824655?page=1#comment-1480…

      • iknowtj on 07/01/2024 - 16:12
        -1

        Yeah but if strapped in a car seat can be hard to access with ease to assist, especially if the child needed a pat on the back etc.

        • JimmyF on 07/01/2024 - 16:18
          +1

          LOL Wife could have done all that while the OP found a safe place to legally stop.

          The fact was, the kid wasn't alone, wife was there to help.

          • tomfool on 07/01/2024 - 16:40

            @JimmyF: They would have then been fined for having an unrestrained child.

            • JimmyF on 07/01/2024 - 16:43

              @tomfool: sure sure….. So the OP was going to be fine either way then ;)

          • iknowtj on 07/01/2024 - 20:11

            @JimmyF: I look at my child seat for my toddler, being setup rear facing at this time. Would actually be harder to get to my kid leaning across from the passenger side than from through the door imho.

            If my wife was yelling for me to stop I'd probably have just jumped up the kerb and stopped tbh but not outside of the realms of a fair response.

  • Stingy Student on 07/01/2024 - 14:49
    +3

    Getting fined like that would be hard to swallow.

  • nikey2k27 on 07/01/2024 - 18:25
    -1

    To court you fight it tell them that show court why most will no fine chuck it out most like cop are to lazy to turn up

    • Blokeinhisundies on 07/01/2024 - 18:42
      +1

      Are you choking?

    • 82norm on 09/01/2024 - 20:18

      The cop doesn’t need to turn up. That’s the police prosecutor’s job to present the cases to the magistrate.

  • Dagwood-Dog on 07/01/2024 - 18:53
    -1

    ACAB

  • saltysalt on 07/01/2024 - 20:33
    +2

    Post up the unedited video!

  • jumpypotato53 on 07/01/2024 - 21:33
    +1

    Why did they put a green arrow light with a no right turn sign?

    • howcan on 07/01/2024 - 22:07
      +2

      They were using the block of land at that intersection as an access area for the construction of the North West Metro railway line, it used to have an exemption for the construction & railway vehicles to turn right there. So they needed a traffic light to turn into there, but they wanted to prevent the general public from turning into it, so they put a No Right Turn with an exception sign for the railway vehicles, basically blocking anyone from turning right there apart from the excepted vehicles, even if you had a green arrow. Now that the construction is done the exception has been removed, so it's just a no right turn for everyone (it doesn't go anywhere) until they develop that block of land and that intersection becomes the access road.

      What doesn't make sense is the OP is claiming it was an an urgent emergency to turn in there, but he must have pulled into the turning lane and sat there for a while at the traffic light to trigger it so he would get the green arrow phase, instead of just pulling the car over somewhere else? He would already have been stopped in the turning lane too, if your baby was dying wouldn't you just stop the car there and attend to them? No wonder the cop didn't believe his emergency story, and this is why the OP is refusing to post the dashcam footage 😂

      • jumpypotato53 on 08/01/2024 - 06:16

        Once he stopped in the turning lane the shit is done already. Pulling off that lane could be more dangerous. Yes, OP didn't pay enough attention but traffic signage is far from ideal in this case.

      • BuBerryCo on 08/01/2024 - 08:50
        +1

        Thank you for the comment. Yes - that's right the area has been and is still under construction for the metro.

        The baby wasnt "dying" but was very distressed. My judgement call (in light of a distressed wife and baby) was to stop and take action urgently BUT not stopping in the middle of the road and actioning it immediately.

        Stopping in the middle of a busy road and walking around traffic is legal but seemed a very dangerous option to me. Historically there's been many instances of oncoming traffic knocking stationary cars like that.

        Believe? The cop needs to listen first to do that. He just wanted to do a breath test and move on after issuing the fine. My dashcam captures him pretty much ignoring what my wife is saying. He just said respond to the fine.

        I have dashcam footage. Uploading video footage of my wife and baby distressed and screeming to Youtube isnt something i'd want to do for privacy reasons.

        • howcan on 08/01/2024 - 09:31
          +1

          You're pissy at the cop for booking you, but look at it from their perspective. Your story has gone from a critical medical emergency (choking baby) to a distressed(crying) baby, so when he rocks up to your window there is no emergency in progress, plus they've seen you have enough time to sit around waiting for a green traffic light cycle too. Everyone lies to them to try and get out of a ticket. Everyone. They would hear it dozens of times a shift. That's why they don't want to hear it. For most people if their baby was actually "choking" they wouldn't be sitting around waiting 1-2 minutes for a green traffic light arrow to come up so they can find a place to park. It was either an urgent situation that required you to break road rules, or it wasn't.

          Anyway, if you have a 10+ year clear driving record you can follow this process to get the fine converted to a caution. https://www.nsw.gov.au/money-and-taxes/fines-and-fees/fines/… . If that fails you can take it to court, plead guilty and ask for it to be section 10 dismissed. Or plead not guilty and fight it, which can be expensive and risky especially as you have no concrete evidence of an emergency.

          • Eeples on 08/01/2024 - 09:42

            @howcan:

            Everyone lies to them to try and get out of a ticket. Everyone. They would hear it dozens of times a shift.

            Yeah, people do make lots of excuses. But the OP didn't break a road rule to get an advantage in the traffic flow for example.
            I mean turning right there doesn't get him home any sooner.
            I mean his illegal turn did not benefit him (except to attend his child).

            A choking child ought to have made perfect sense to the Officer in the context of where the OP ended up.

            and risky especially as you have no concrete evidence of an emergency.

            The OP has the dashcam audio of the incident as stated.

            • Spalf on 08/01/2024 - 10:49
              +1

              @Eeples:

              Yeah, people do make lots of excuses. But the OP didn't break a road rule to get an advantage in the traffic flow for example.
              I mean turning right there doesn't get him home any sooner.
              I mean his illegal turn did not benefit him (except to attend his child).

              The thing is - how is the cop to know he is actually going home. For example - perhaps the police officer suspected he was going to Rouse Hill Town Centre and got caught in the wrong lane and was trying to recover by making a turn there - or perhaps the cop was following him prior and noted some average driving and then all of a sudden, he is making an illegal turn, which perhaps made the cop think he was avoiding him for some reason, hence the breath test.

              Don't get me wrong - I think its a pretty minor thing to be fined for in the scheme of things and probabbly something i'd maybe expect a warning for with a good driving record - perhaps that is part of the issue, the driving record.

              My question - did the cop follow you in there from the same direction you were driving or did he come from the other direction or from The Ponds?

              My only suggestion to OP at this point would be that if you have the dash cam footage that truly supports everything you say happened, i wouldn't be trimming that footage to only show the exchange with the cop. You'd need to include the lead up to the incident that supports the 'medical emergency' with your wife asking you to pull over in a panic, otherwise its just going to look like an over reaction to a screaming baby. Providing dash cam of you telling the cop that your baby was choking, isn't really adding a lot unless he denies you told him that.

        • Eeples on 08/01/2024 - 09:36

          Were you stopped sitting in the right turning lane waiting for the green arrow to be triggered?

          If so, how long did it take to trigger?

  • tonka on 08/01/2024 - 00:41

    In NSW if you have no demerits on your license just write a letter apologizing and asking leniency and it should be cancelled.

    • 82norm on 09/01/2024 - 20:21

      Yeah, you wish.

      • tonka on 09/01/2024 - 23:13
        +1

        No need to wish. Have done it before. Unless things have changed it's a standard thing in NSW, if you have a clean record you get can request leniency as a good driver who made a mistake. And of course you could have googled it before you snarked.

        • howcan on 10/01/2024 - 09:46
          +1

          Yep it's still a thing in NSW, a lot of lower grade offences like this one will still be converted to a caution, but just a correction you need a 10 year clear driving record, not 0 demerits.

  • Eeples on 08/01/2024 - 09:30
    +1

    I think your hazard lights should have been turned on when your child starting choking. ie. before you turned right.

    But, of course, your child is choking so you pulled over as fast as you could; no time for extra thinking; perfectly reasonable imo.

    Yes, you should respond to the fine as the Officer said.

  • jonkvh on 08/01/2024 - 10:09
    -1

    Had to deal with a couple of 'thick' police officers at front counters in a couple of Police stations. Wasn't until I complained about the condescending treatment of a serious issue that a Snr Sargeant called me back and helped me out. Just remember, don't complain about the officer, just the process.

  • EnALup on 08/01/2024 - 12:46
    +2

    OP, can you upload the dashcam video here ( My Account-> Files) or another platform and share the link. Curious if dashcam recording stating "My son was choking" was when discussing with police or before taking the right. If its before, contest it.

  • stumo on 08/01/2024 - 13:29
    +3

    I have dashcam footage with audio where my wife and I have stated "my son was choking".

    So that same dashcam footage will also have the son choking and you guys freaking out and deciding to do an illegal/emergency stop right?…

    And the police dashcam will show you guys racing out of the car to the back seat to check on your son, right?…

    …didn't think so.

    The police footage will show you pulling into the abandoned driveway AFTER the lights and sirens, then putting on hazard lights AFTER the lights and sirens as you hurriedly make up some BS excuse. Also showing you both calmly sitting there the whole time while your son supposedly chokes to death in the back seat lol.

    The cops and magistrates have heard it all before. But sure, may as well try your luck?

    • Scantu on 08/01/2024 - 22:02
      -2

      Lick those boots stumo

      • stumo on 16/01/2024 - 10:21
        +1

        No lol. I can just smell a crock of shit.

  • drfuzzy on 08/01/2024 - 14:19
    -2

    If your child didn't choke to death then you've already won and can pay the ticket happily.

  • mistermarky on 08/01/2024 - 17:52
    -2

    typical arrogant twat who gave you a ticket. contest it and shame them out

  • Scantu on 08/01/2024 - 22:02

    Appeal it however you can. Our road laws are arcane and designed to punish without discretion just for the sake of it, it is a disgrace.

    • BuBerryCo on 24/01/2024 - 08:22

      Many thanks!

  • Davo1111 on 08/01/2024 - 22:06

    If your story is real, take it to court.

  • Antikythera on 08/01/2024 - 22:19
    +1

    pay the fine. cheap price to pay for the life of your child.

  • billy72 on 11/01/2024 - 17:36
    +4

    I won't believe OP's story unless the footage is posted

    • BuBerryCo on 12/01/2024 - 08:12
      -3

      Uploading private footage of their baby and spouse distressed onto a public forum is not something a reasonable person would do.

      • howcan on 12/01/2024 - 14:38

        Strip the audio out.

      • stumo on 12/01/2024 - 16:17

        facebook, tiktok, et al, has entered the chat lol.

      • randomusername2017 on 13/01/2024 - 21:26
        +3

        So it doesn't support the narrative?

  • BuBerryCo on 16/01/2024 - 13:25
    +1

    I've submitted the appeal with screenshots of the dashcam (Revenue NSW doesn't offer an option to upload video).

    I can provide the footage or alternately, the entire conversation should be covered by the cop's body cam.

    Will keep you guys posted.

    • stumo on 16/01/2024 - 14:11
      +2

      Do you honestly think they haven't heard this one before? Its one step away from "Just waitin for a mate."

  • Jono05 on 16/01/2024 - 21:57
    +2

    I smell bullsh!t…

  • BuBerryCo on 24/01/2024 - 08:19

    Morning everyone,

    I received the letter from Revenue NSW with the outcome of my review request ahead of the 42 days review timeframe.

    Firstly, many thanks to the many people that shared helpful and empathetic responses. My apologies I have not been able to respond to each msg seperate.

    The purpose of my post was to reach out to people with experience or insight on the review process.

    Unfortunately, I may have created the wrong impression that I was asking for a case review of the evidence by OB, hence why some wanted an upload of the dashcam or formed the view I was looking to get validation of the facts.

    Outcome- “our investigations conclude a caution should apply in this instance”.

    Primary grounds I ticked was the clear driving history. However, the write up focused on there actual facts leading up to and during the offence.

    General experiences - the word limit made it very hard to capture all the relevant facts. The system also allows uploading images. Which made it hard to share any of the pre and post offence conversation.

    I’m happy to share insights with the community on my experience and process. Just for clarity, I was not seeking validation or review of the evidence or case by forum.

    Cheers
    Sand

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