Speed and Horsepower Is Now Cheap. Car Reviews Need to Change Format

dextr3k on 12/12/2023 - 14:21
Last edited 12/12/2023 - 14:21

I was just watching some EV reviews, and majority of the content was still: 1000 hp! 0-60 in 2 seconds! Drag races! Faster than a Bugatti!

The review is for a $30k EV, it's great that its so much power, but I am starting to get numb to the speed numbers. It doesn't say how accurate the range is, how much power does it lose in the cold? Do I still need to charge it only to 80%? keep it over 20%? so I get 60% of the 300km "optimal" range? If I accelerate and beat that Bugatti, how much range do I get left over when I stop at the Macca's to gloat?

I'm a big car guy and probably will own small explosion machines for the rest of my life, but times are changing, and reviews need to change with it.

In line with Ozbargain tradition. I think new high yield investment machines should be $200k Porsche Taycans

Automotive

Comments

  • Malik Nasser on 12/12/2023 - 14:23
    +13

    You can get a 1000HP EV for $30k? Where do I sign up?

    • dextr3k on 12/12/2023 - 14:24
      -3

      Numbers are exaggerated, just like EV range numbers.

      • Drakesy on 12/12/2023 - 18:06
        +10

        NGL the whole post kind of lost its credibility as soon as i read that.

        • brendanm on 12/12/2023 - 18:23
          +5

          For me, it was after reading the thread title.

      • ColtNoir on 13/12/2023 - 08:25

        Much like ICE L/km? Car manufacturers and dealers have lied and will lie forever, until someone forces them to stop.

  • coffeeinmyveins on 12/12/2023 - 14:27
    +2

    If I accelerate and beat that Bugatti, how much range do I get left over when I stop at the Macca's to gloat?

    Probably not much more than if you flogged the bugatti. Doesn't a veyron use a full tank of fuel to get up to top speed?

    and majority of the content was still: 1000 hp! 0-60 in 2 seconds! Drag races! Faster than a Bugatti!
    The review is for a $30k EV,

    I mean, I get your point, but no need to add this level of hyperbole.

    • dextr3k on 12/12/2023 - 14:32
      -1

      Yeah, sorry, I couldn't be bothered to dig up the performance numbers for a BYD Seal.

      And I think I did see that too, the Bugatti burns through its entire fuel tank in 8min at max speed of 400km/h or something close.

      • coffeeinmyveins on 12/12/2023 - 14:52

        pretty weak 0-100 perf from the looks of it.

        3.8 to 7.5 seconds

        Also need to factor in replacing your battery when it kicks the bucket.

        I remember seeing an article about a guy who did like 1million miles on his Tesla or something? A bunch of EV supporters were cheering it on but ignored the fact that it had like 5 battery replacements and a bunch of new motors LOL

        • dextr3k on 12/12/2023 - 15:01

          5 batteries and new motors, at what point is it still the same car?

          We cheer million mile hilux's, but if the engine is swapped no one considers that the same car anymore.

          • eug on 12/12/2023 - 15:34
            +4

            @dextr3k:

            5 batteries and new motors, at what point is it still the same car?

            Classic example of Chinese whispers. It's 3 battery packs not 5.

            1.6 million kilometres on three battery packs is quite impressive IMHO. That's an average of over half a million kilometres per battery pack. Not many petrol vehicles even hit 500k km.

            The motors didn't fare as well; the first motor lasted 778,000km, the subsequent ones lasted 200,000km each. Still pretty solid compared to a petrol vehicle of the same class. Imagine how many leaks a BMW would have had by 150,000km.

            • dextr3k on 12/12/2023 - 15:44
              +1

              @eug: Fair point, its impressive. I am still on the boat that we should not be comparing EVs to ICEs using the same metrics.

              By that point, is this Tesla more impressive than a Million Mile Porsche? It didnt, but would it be the same impressiveness if I told you they replaced the engine 3 times?

              • eug on 12/12/2023 - 16:04
                +3

                @dextr3k:

                I am still on the boat that we should not be comparing EVs to ICEs using the same metrics.

                I do agree; I'm guessing it's because they're trying to cater to people who are used to watching ICE reviews.

                Speaking with my EV-owning friends though, they don't overanalyze it. They just set the charge limit to 90% and charge when needed.

                By that point, is this Tesla more impressive than a Million Mile Porsche?(caranddriver.com) It didnt, but would it be the same impressiveness if I told you they replaced the engine 3 times?

                To me the Tesla is much more impressive as the Porsche was serviced 333 times by the time it reached that mileage. A Porsche service is not cheap. If each service cost $400 (in Australia the average cost at the moment is $1077 per annual service), that's $133,200 just in servicing costs.

                On the other hand, at 1.6 million km, the Tesla repairs cost $21,000.

                In any case, these are all just outliers that make for interesting reading. I'm probably not going to drive any car, petrol or EV, for even 300,000km. But that might just be my ICE thinking - we all know how ICE cars tend to start leaking and developing issues from 100,000km or so, slowing turning into a money sink that pays for the mechanic's new weekend car.

                EVs aren't magic and will also have problems. If they can have fewer problems than my ICE cars I'll be really happy. At the moment it certainly seems that way.

                • coffeeinmyveins on 12/12/2023 - 16:37

                  @eug:

                  Classic example of Chinese whispers. It's 3 battery packs(thedriven.io) not 5.

                  Classic example of me saying "something like 5" implying that it was around that number, but whatever.

                  On the other hand, at 1.6 million km, the Tesla repairs cost $21,000(thedriven.io).

                  "as the motors were swapped under warranty twice. The battery was also swapped once under warranty,"

                  Yeah of course it's only showing $21k because it was done under warranty. so let's look at some actual replacement figures, shall we.

                  A quick google shows that a battery replacement would cost $20-35K a pop and the motor would be about half that.

                  So $80k roughly to do that, probably more.

                  • eug on 12/12/2023 - 16:46
                    +3

                    @coffeeinmyveins:

                    Classic example of me saying "something like 5" implying that it was around that number, but whatever.

                    Not sure if you know what Chinese whispers is. Note how the post I replied to stated "5 battery replacements" like it was fact. Your "had like 5 battery replacements" turned to "5 battery replacements" in just one step.

                    Yeah of course it's only showing $21k because it was done under warranty.

                    Looks like the warranty works great then.

                    So $80k roughly to do that, probably more.

                    Right, so it might cost around half as much as just the servicing costs on that million-mile Porsche. :)

                  • Never Pay RRP on 13/12/2023 - 13:32

                    @coffeeinmyveins: It’s a shame you and the OP weren’t able to do a “quick google” to check your own exaggerated hyperbole in your earlier posts

                • ATTS on 15/01/2024 - 17:46

                  @eug: Just wondering what are the common problems for the EV

                  • Euphemistic on 15/01/2024 - 18:43

                    @ATTS: Most common problem is with Tesla and the attitude of the fanbois. Otherwise they are pretty trouble free - like no less reliable than ICE cars.

                    • ATTS on 16/01/2024 - 08:20

                      @Euphemistic: I see thanks. Yeah i was under the impression electrical comppnents were more reliable than mechanical but i saw someone post

                      "EVs aren't magic and will also have problems."

                      So thats why i asked what the common problems were

              • Nugs on 12/12/2023 - 16:45
                +1

                @dextr3k: a million miles you say
                https://youtu.be/YLxbzwdUpAk?t=536
                .

        • Drakesy on 12/12/2023 - 18:11
          +1

          I remember seeing an article about a guy who did like 1million miles on his Tesla or something? A bunch of EV supporters were cheering it on but ignored the fact that it had like 5 battery replacements and a bunch of new motors LOL

          I'd like to see a 1 million mile ICE vehicle on its original engine.

          Also Tesla taxis have been covering 500,000k's+ on the original battery and engine, more than the life of many cars so really its a non-issue.

          LOL

          • coffeeinmyveins on 13/12/2023 - 14:16

            @Drakesy:

            I'd like to see a 1 million mile ICE vehicle on its original engine.

            https://www.topspeed.com/finest-examples-of-one-million-mile…

            LOL

            • eug on 13/12/2023 - 14:52

              @coffeeinmyveins: I wonder how much was spent on maintenance and transmission replacements on the few that did last that long.

            • Drakesy on 13/12/2023 - 15:00

              @coffeeinmyveins: You did notice that all those cars are olddddd, you won't get near that with the new ones. Oh and the number of repairs that would've had to occur vs EV largely being untouched…

          • Hackney on 13/12/2023 - 15:00
            +2

            @Drakesy: ,they were banging on about what fantastic mileage, but conveniently left out the repairs that it needed.

          • Hackney on 13/12/2023 - 15:03
            +1

            @Drakesy: They only seem to report what suits them,never the negative aspects.

        • ATTS on 14/12/2023 - 20:55

          Oh do ev motors brake down aswell?

      • Eeples on 12/12/2023 - 20:01
        +1

        Or the correct Australian price. Starts at just under 50k… and you won't get quick for that money.

    • Shadowsfury on 12/12/2023 - 14:37

      From memory the veyron would use up its tank in 12mins if going at full speed

      • rodericb on 15/12/2023 - 17:06

        An EV would flatten it's battery pretty quickly if it was held at flat-stick.

  • Euphemistic on 12/12/2023 - 15:02
    +1

    It’s just part of the arms race for cars. They have to build some sort of hero car to get us interested. Utes have tow or load capacity, ICE has fuel economy, EV has 0-100 times.

    • dextr3k on 12/12/2023 - 15:09

      Thats a good point. But I think they focused on the wrong stat.

      I agree Utes have tow capacity, but I would venture to say ICE has 0-100 times, and EV's havent found their comparative niche, which is what I'm trying to say

      Reviews need to change to cover "that" aspect of EVs thats more relevant to EV buyers, because its great that the Cybertruck is 800hp and can beat a Lamborgini Urus, but is that what Cybertruck should be focusing on as the selling point? And does that comparison steer you away from a Lamborgini Urus?

      • Bigboomboom on 12/12/2023 - 15:57

        Most EV review (in-depth, not first drive) will touch on range. Power is not lost via cold (by meaningful degrees), it's usually lost by battery SoC, low SoC lower output. Cold mainly affects range (consumption). Australia temperature is mild, there's no point to fuss over cold. Try again when you are running under -15C over over 45C.
        As confirmed by one of the early peep who bought BYD Seal Performance, it does 0-100 in 3.8s at 44% SoC and that's very healthy. EV is also different to ICEV, efficiency is not affected as much by slapping on big power motor (they weigh tiny compare to engine), mostly the larger battery pack is the one that weigh it down. A 1000hp can easily run as efficiently as a 200hp EV, provided you are not flooring it and keep it at max speed. A V8 twin turbo is not going to (never) be as efficiently as a I4 NA.

        Also EV consumption in the cold is frequently overblown, ICE suffer too. In low enough temperature you lose 30-40% range on ICE too.

      • Euphemistic on 12/12/2023 - 16:26

        I think EV 0-100 times are the big thing for EVs. They are selling the instant off the line acceleration that is better than ICE and the fact that a ‘basic’ EV will be a LOT quicker to 100 than all but high powered ICE vehicles.

        They know range doesn’t really sell, because in the back of peoples minds range equates to anxiety of some sort - although it’s largely irrational. Range also equates t waiting at a public charger - also not something you want to focus on.

        That is, they have looked at something to excite people about EVs. The rest is just ‘car’.

        • Nugs on 12/12/2023 - 16:49

          "The rest is just ‘car’." or appliance
          .

      • Gunnar on 12/12/2023 - 17:15
        -1

        EVs give the owners an irrational smirk that they’re somehow better than you because they have an EV

        …And in the case of the Tesla owner they get to drop in mid conversation that they have a Tesla even though you are’nt even talking about cars

        • eug on 12/12/2023 - 17:17
          +1

          Those are of course generalisations. Maybe you just need better friends. :)

        • LFO on 13/12/2023 - 14:13

          Noticed something similar with pickup owners.

          Embarrassed of their redneck Hillbilly truck they repeatedly call it "ute" … ain't that cute :-)

  • pharkurnell on 12/12/2023 - 15:57
    +2

    They have to make it appear appealing to the suckers…
    fictional range with about 50 variables on how they got 15,000klms out of 1 battery,
    fictional speed (when you can only do 100 in most city areas

    Same as reviews for ever… one bike magazine in the 70's did tests on a Jap brand, and wrote an honest review.. they werent given another bike from that brand for 10-15yrs
    Same as car of the year manure… BMW X5 won 4wd of the year once…. the defense rests.

    • Speckled Jim on 13/12/2023 - 10:12

      Holden Camira also snagged Wheels COTY.
      It's all $$$ and who can extract them the quickest/most/best.

      • pharkurnell on 13/12/2023 - 10:27

        and who pays the most for the 4 page spread with lots of photos

  • Dollar General on 12/12/2023 - 16:44

    Everything seems to be about speed. Fast cars, fast food, fast internet, fast fashion etc except when it comes to sex where it needs to be slow for some reason

  • Brick Tamland on 12/12/2023 - 16:56

    EV's are still very much in the early adopters phase so they kind of need that hook to appeal to those buyers. Once they start really going mainstream I think all the other stuff will follow and we will see less huge HP machines with a focus on more every day attributes.

  • pegaxs on 12/12/2023 - 17:07
    +2

    I just want to know how much torque it produces, how far it goes on a fill/charge (without lying about it), how much it is going to be to insure, how hard it’s going to be to get parts for it and how much it is to service.

    • dextr3k on 12/12/2023 - 17:17

      Yeah, the relevant ownership stuff!

      I remember when Tesla just came out and there was massive demand for it, the wait for a body panel was 6+ months when you got into a fender bender. I think RichRebuilds had a recent video where he scratched his Rivian and was waiting months for parts to get it repaired.

  • Mechz on 12/12/2023 - 18:09
    +1

    How fast can they take corners though? That's where the actual fun is.

  • Protractor on 12/12/2023 - 18:16

    Oh goody, fast quiet cars save the planet,quickly Yay. And thank goodness there's born again ICE experts who have adapted their shtick, to read an article about EVs and regurgitate it.
    I hope they get paid in crypto.

  • Ocker on 12/12/2023 - 19:45
    -3

    I am sick and tired of the EV proponents trying to ram EV's down our throats!

    • Never Pay RRP on 13/12/2023 - 13:59

      Well this discussion began as an EV Bashing exercise with some seriously questionable stats/numbers. I’m not sure I’d categorise people jumping in to correct the blatantly incorrect assertions as “EV proponents trying to ram EV's down our throats”

      Disclaimer: I do not own an EV

    • LFO on 13/12/2023 - 14:06

      Like pushing for RAMs?

      • Protractor on 14/12/2023 - 10:13

        So I'm probs the only one 'facetiously' plumping for RAMs ( they are needle dick penis extension) who else is seriously campaigning for them?
        The point is ppl are jabbering and debating about menial shit while the planet virtually evaporates. So IMHO, buy what you want, you'll be too busy frying,drowning or being blown apart in 10 years time, to worry about your choice of ride, laptop or rice cooker..

        • LFO on 14/12/2023 - 12:41

          Today's brainwashing motto:

          "He who dies with the most toys wins."

          • Protractor on 14/12/2023 - 12:48

            @LFO: You exemplify the problem. And how we got here.The motto is and always was wake up and do something. Not surprised.You can roll over & go back to sleep now

    • Euphemistic on 15/12/2023 - 15:52
      +1

      I am sick and tired of the EV proponents trying to ram EV's down our throats!

      And I’m sick of all the uninformed EV bashers that roll out the minute they are mentioned.

      No one is trying to ram EVs down your throat. They are selling themselves as people realise they are just better in the city. Of course, they aren’t suited to every market yet.

  • gth on 13/12/2023 - 07:59

    I'd be happy if they at least added battery size to the specs panel. I don't think folks realise the wide variance in this value especially some hybrids which barely fit definition.

    The automatic knowledge of a 4 cylinder vs V8 will eventually translate to knowledge that vehicle XYZ has a 2 kWh battery vs vehicle ABC that has 100+ kWh.

    • Euphemistic on 15/12/2023 - 15:56

      The EV reviews I’ve seen state battery capacity - and some even say ‘usable capacity’ knowing that you can’t run them down to zero.

  • 2esc on 13/12/2023 - 17:35

    99% of cars can do well over the speed limit pretty pointless really. Acceration rate of many cars (all types) is way quicker than needed and beyond the ability of 99% of drivers. How quick do they need to accelerate to the next set of lights and jam the brakes on?

    • Protractor on 14/12/2023 - 10:22

      I can see all sorts of traffic and accident issues as the mix gets more complex, ICE,performance EV and EV.
      Prepare for a flood of insurance threads,real and imaginedof course.

      • Euphemistic on 15/12/2023 - 15:58

        Unless they really get ‘mis-acceleration mitigation’ sorted there’s gonna be a bunch more EVs driven by seniors parked in the local cafe too. The faster they accelerate, the more likely they are to get ‘out of control’ when granny steps on the pedal too hard then panics.

        • Protractor on 15/12/2023 - 16:01

          Frightening, isn't it. The rate of tech advancement has outpaced our ability to adapt safely for way too long. Look at the carnage e-scooters and e-bikes have already created. Police & lawmakers just look away and expect some other body to sort it.
          But everybody plays the 'nanny sate' and 'woke' cards and adult and safety discussion shuts down to appease the bullies who demand free reign access and usage on everything new.

          • Euphemistic on 15/12/2023 - 17:44

            @Protractor: Not sure about the ‘carnage’ of e scooters and bikes. The medi love a good beat up story and picking on the new thing is also a favourite for them. Pretty sure if you looked into it it would not be much different to regular bikes and scooters. Although, they are heavier and faster so maybe any injuries caused are more serious than regular bikes.

            • Protractor on 15/12/2023 - 18:25

              @Euphemistic: That's the thing, fast and quiet, driven a lot of the time by inconsiderate riders,wrong place & time . And the collisions are way faster . . Rules require adherence to and policing of, and the lobbyists won the day cos 'nanny state' card played. Tell that to elderly victims with life changing injuries.
              The least the law should require is really extensive 3rd party insurance and speed /location restrictions. They should be on the road and run the risk, not on paths or shared paths.

              • Euphemistic on 15/12/2023 - 19:06

                @Protractor: So it’s not OK to endanger ‘elderly victims’ but it’s ok to put them ‘on the road and run the risk’?

                What did the lobbyists win?

                As I said, I don’t believe its a big problem, just the media love to pick on them so it’s seems worse than it is.

                • Protractor on 15/12/2023 - 19:50

                  @Euphemistic: I'd rather that they (the fwits ruining it for careful riders) risked their own meat in traffic, than plough into older or any people on footpaths or public spaces. Those events can destroy the last part of a mobile and healthy and/or older person.

                  What did the lobbyists win? The right to e scooters/bikes to access roads and paths before their were PROPER safeguards.

                  Do you have one??. If a mobile older person is suddenly incapacitated years before they should be, in a single reckless event, that's enough for me to say (profanity) them having access to where pedestrians are. It should be safe zone,period.

                  • Euphemistic on 15/12/2023 - 20:04

                    @Protractor: No, I don’t own either, but I cycle. Personally I’d rather not have to ride on roads. It’s far more dangerous dealing with 2t of metal that with pedestrians. A mate was hit and run by a car while cycling home. He’ll never be the same. Too many cyclists getting maimed on the roads, I don’t think putting escooters out on the roads is going to reduce any injuries, more likely to increase then.

                    Here in NSW e-scooters are still illegal. It’s dumb because there are just so many out there. The ‘lobbyists’ haven’t done anything effective here

                    We do have an escooter hire trial locally but they are bill picked to stupidly slow speed (10?) which means that no one uses the ‘legal’ ones. Plenty of illegal ones doing a more reasonable speed (25) though.

                    E-scooters need to become legal, exactly what controls should be in place I’m not sure on.

                    • Protractor on 15/12/2023 - 21:57
                      -1

                      @Euphemistic: Your problem , like all the planets problems, is too many humans.
                      ( On the roads and everywhere.)

                      Then I suggest licensing e-scooters, and push bikes period. Plates and all. The license has a compulsory 3rd party component.
                      I know of similar incidents where a cyclist suffered permanent life changing injuries via a hit and run situation. Ruined for life. They eventually caught/charged/convicted the gutless AH responsible, but as usual the sentence was pathetic. Hit and run events like that should equal loss of license for life.

                      I think e-scooters on busy pedestrian areas pose an equal risk to the vulnerable, as cars to cyclists, given the age of many of the victims. There is no easy answer beyond regulation, but politicians have no gonads on this topic.And the greens demand for more of this shit -without any adult ways to safe guard the victim component.
                      The money wasted on the greens, since Bob Brown left, would be way better spent , directly, on mass tree plantings.

                      • Euphemistic on 16/12/2023 - 05:58

                        @Protractor:

                        Then I suggest licensing e-scooters, and push bikes period. Plates and all. The license has a compulsory 3rd party component.

                        That’s not a solution. It’s been discussed many times and it’s just not practical nor cost effective. The numbers of incidents is not significant enough to warrant the cost burden on all users.

                        Hit and run events like that should equal loss of license for life.

                        Don’t disagree there.

                        • Protractor on 16/12/2023 - 09:14
                          -2

                          @Euphemistic: The numbers ( e riders and accidents related to) will grow, and cyclists are way thicker on the ground now,too. justifying the process.

                          There's just too many humans driving all of our issues, and now too fast adoption of tech.We demand and get shit before society is ready for it's downstream impacts.
                          Either the law makers bite the bullet or we all sit back and watch the mayhem evolve.As per now.
                          I'm not sure the term 'cost effective' has any gravitas any more. Look at th cost of living. Fuel cartels balckmail the public, big corps rule the roost.

              • Euphemistic on 20/12/2023 - 17:21

                @Protractor: What a wonderful but not very informative story. There is very little real information in it.

                256 people presented with scooter injuries at a cost of $2m. Compared to what? How much is it up? How has this affected bicycling or pedestrian injuries? How much did motor vehicle trauma cost in the same time period? How many non scooter rider were injured as a result of those crashes? Your reckless hoons crashing into little old ladies story isn’t supported at all by the at story. It’s all about the drunk 20’s male injuries.

                Yes it’s time to do something with e-scooters, but mainly because they are still illegal, not because they are a danger to little old ladies.

                • Protractor on 20/12/2023 - 19:26

                  @Euphemistic: Jesus H Christ, you said it was not a significant number of incidents,I show you some relevant numbers, (fresh today) you go all what about cars and stuff.
                  Most of the data collected in multiple studies, fails to include the pedestrian toll, but it's a factor

                  eg>

                  " Ben Rossiter, executive officer of advocacy group Victoria Walks, said that was a gap in the data.

                  “Technically, the e-scooters should be on the roadways, not the footpath, but we know there is a lot of non-compliance, which is a concern,” he said.

                  “Particularly for older walkers, people with disabilities, families with kids, when e-scooters are breaking the law [by riding on footpaths] it makes it harder for them to move about. It is not just crashes, it is fear of the risk of injury,” he said.

                  Victoria Police road policing command acting assistant commissioner Justin Goldsmith said police actively enforce e-scooter rules, with 744 e-scooter infringement notices issued across Victoria from December 2021 to October 30 this year."

                  from >
                  https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/hospitalisations…

                  You said>
                  "The numbers of incidents is not significant enough to warrant the cost burden on all users."

                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-25/warning-of-exponentia…

                  • Euphemistic on 20/12/2023 - 19:42

                    @Protractor: You showed me some numbers but they had nothing to corroborate them with other than doctors saying ‘number are up’. There was no comment on numbers of self inflicted injury vs injury fo others. How can you say it’s a significant number. Compared to what? It was a typical media beat up story. Critical thinking involves not taking stuff at face value.

                    The journalist failed to inform us of a lot of pertinent info. Why are the elderly so scared of them? Well they probably get a bit of a fright as they pass, just like a bicycle does, but the rest of the fear results from media beat up stories like ‘e-scooter injures are way up’

                    As for the last story - of course there’s been an exponential increase in e scooter injuries since 2017. They were virtually non-existent before then and there’s lots of them now.

                    What regulations do we need for them? Helmets? Probably. Speed/power restrictions? Probably Bells? Probably. Restrictions on usage around pedestrians? Yes. Banning them from footpaths? Only for busy pedestrian areas or well end up with more scooters being hit by cars. But what else? Definitely not licences and insurance

                    • Protractor on 20/12/2023 - 19:50

                      @Euphemistic: OMG denial central The frikking EDs are sending alarm bells over the numbers.
                      Beat up. Mmmmk

                      You keep going in circles.You have had the answers, you rejected them, then circled back. License them
                      with inclusive insurance.
                      I don't care if they ban them.I have no vested interest.

                      • Euphemistic on 20/12/2023 - 20:11

                        @Protractor:

                        The frikking EDs are sending alarm bells over the numbers.

                        The EDs may not be the best measure of these things. They only see the end result of crashes. Yes, it’s important to know about potential injuries but it’s not the only thing to consider. Participation rates factor in.

                        ED numbers were a big factor in the introduction of bicycle helmet laws. They only saw head injuries. They didn’t consider that cycling rates would plummet and probably increase obesity and other problems. The rest of the world hasn’t mandated bicycle helmets and their injury rates are not significantly worse than ours and their participation rates are higher.

                        Licensing is not the answer. There’s no point banning them, they are not legal here and it certainly doesn’t stop anyone using them. Insurance? Like CTP? That’s for other people, but the indication from the stories is that the injuries are for riders, not others.

                        Education is the answer, along with somehow teaching respect for other road/path users.

  • Protractor on 20/12/2023 - 20:16

    "The EDs may not be the best measure of these things. They only see the end result of crashes" ergo the tip of an iceberg or at least a smaller % of the real picture? Or do you think everyone injured and attending are the only ones?

    You cay licensing is not the answer.I disagree. They should be in the pool given the impacts, and they need to insure for the 3rd party component. I care not about the riders, it's their choice.

    Education??? is the answer? Are you NEW to humans in 2023?
    You must be either senior bureaucrat, or a retired school teacher.

    Teaching respect? Oh yes. That should work. /s

    • Euphemistic on 20/12/2023 - 20:50

      "The EDs may not be the best measure of these things. They only see the end result of crashes" ergo the tip of an iceberg or at least a smaller % of the real picture? Or do you think everyone injured and attending are the only ones?

      Or the other way of looking at it is if you only see the bad results you get conditioned to expect it. They fail to see other aspects like how e-scooters can reduce car usage and provide cheap effective personal transport. They don’t see the bigger picture.

      Your argument for 3rd party insurance doesn’t stand up. If the majority of incidents are rider only why do we need 3rd party? Same for cyclists, joggers etc. the costs of such a system would outweigh the benefits when we already have Medicare.

      Yeah, I get it getting respect into the equation isn’t easy, but it’s essential for a society to function well.

      • Protractor on 20/12/2023 - 21:16

        Or an e-scooter seller or share holder. But whatever blows your hair back sits well with utter denial.
        We stopped functioning well as a society when ppl thought lurching to the right was an option, and long after considering nature was merely a means to an end

        Over and out. Find another more receptive ear> to worm ,bruh

        • Euphemistic on 20/12/2023 - 21:40

          You might think it’s denial, but I prefer to get some more solid facts around this sort of discussion.

          Thanks for the chat. Unfortunately I’ve got no idea what that last bit is supposed to mean.

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