Purchased Used Car with Different Odometer Reading

jinzo5 on 20/06/2023 - 09:19

Now that ServiceNSW provides odometer readings from the last 3 years with their free rego checks, I decided to do a check for a Totoyta Camry I had purchased a week ago from a private seller.

Odometer reading was 70,000km as advertised but when I did the rego check yesterday, it showed:

Condition codes
87 MODIFIED AS PER REPORT NUMBER - 1100232000xxxMP ISSUED 20201211
Odometer readings*
141,321 km
9 October 2022
129,133 km
16 August 2022
129,036 km
16 August 2022

now there's probably nothing I could do now (yes I should have done the car history report prior to purchase) but at my next pinkslip, the mechanic will enter in the current reading which will be very different to the readings above - will RMS think that I've tampered with the odometer?

Automotive

Comments

  • deveshwar0 on 20/06/2023 - 09:23
    +1

    Do you have a signed sale agreement with the seller nothing the odo at the time of the sale?

    • jinzo5 on 20/06/2023 - 09:31

      Unfortunately not

      • netjock on 20/06/2023 - 10:21
        +6

        Doesn't matter unless you wound it back. I would report it. Can't let people do stuff like this. Whether the authorities take action is something else.

      • Euphemistic on 20/06/2023 - 10:23
        +6

        Kept a copy of the ad? Keep a copy of any email/text with the seller.

      • Sinnerator on 21/06/2023 - 08:12

        if its a modern car the odo reading will also be stored in other ECUs in the car, you could get a mechanic to pull these other readings

  • Dumax on 20/06/2023 - 09:32
    +7

    If you're worried - report it now:

    https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/transaction/report-suspected-…

    • jinzo5 on 20/06/2023 - 09:37

      I get to the third page of the form but it asks for the dealer/business details which is not applicable since I had purchased it privately so I think maybe RMS only care if motor dealers are doing it?

      • blitz on 20/06/2023 - 09:46

        Could you contact the original seller and ask where they bought it from? Or is there a service stamp in the service log that might give an indication?

      • Dumax on 20/06/2023 - 09:49

        It seems that it refers you to NSW Fair Trading (who obviously would only be involved with businesses) - perhaps get in contact with Service NSW directly and get some advice as to next steps.

        • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 10:16
          +1

          ..and post the advice (if any is given)

    • scottishdave on 20/06/2023 - 12:41

      NSW Rego Check Now Includes Last 3 Recorded Odometer Readings
      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/782438

  • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 10:15
    +7

    This odo rorting issue looks to be massive, if a few Ozb members can just randomly spot anomalies and this thread then pops up.

    Will wait in vain to hear how the reg authorities follow up on this obvious pre sales scamming (fraudulent behaviour)

    • netjock on 20/06/2023 - 10:23
      +1

      People doing brazen stuff these days.

      Stealing cars, giving them VIN of write offs in another state and selling them etc.

      Second hand car sellers not doing themselves any favors unless they think people won't wise up.

      • CurlCurl on 20/06/2023 - 11:22

        Stealing cars, giving them VIN of write offs in another state and selling them etc.

        I think there is a national list of unrepairable right off's now to stop the above.

  • Gdsamp on 20/06/2023 - 10:18

    Yeah this appears to be bloody rampant

  • pegaxs on 20/06/2023 - 10:23
    +15

    Yikes… This new information has opened a real can of worms.

    I am on a few Facebook groups for selling cars and bikes and the war of words has already started with people doing checks on vehicles advertised with shonky readings. People are already asking how they can bypass or make this information private on other forums.

    I went through Scumtree last night, and about 25% of the vehicles I tested on the rego check website, were coming back as tampered with. It's nuts just how many there are.

    I hope this leads to other states doing something similar, but it wont work in Vic, Qld or SA (and others??) as there are no yearly checks and one person could own a car for 10+ years and never have a road worthy done in some states.

    • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 10:44

      25%. Jeezuss

      Even if it was 10% it would justify a dedicated odo fraud squad.
      Looks like the 'fair go' is dead ,buried,cremated once and for all.
      Maybe states need a formal register of all sales of second hand odos.Permit or something. Onus on buyer and seller of to be recorded on a data base.
      Good luck with 'genuine' kms going fwd. Pffft

      • pegaxs on 20/06/2023 - 10:51
        +2

        I dont know if I just got lucky or what, but 25% of them was alarming… I dont know, I could have gone on for another hour checking random cars and not hit another one, but it's more rife than what I first thought it would be.

        • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 10:54
          +1

          Find out Strayas top 10 selling second hand cars and run them through the ringer…

          Maybe sellers will be made to provide a odo record at point of sale going fwd, although I think a lot of worn out horses have already bolted

        • Gdsamp on 20/06/2023 - 11:13
          +1

          Depends what cars you were checking, there's probably some that would tend to be rolled back more than others
          Utes/SUVs might generally clock up more km's than standard passenger cars
          Perhaps camry/corolla too to minimise their appearance of use in rideshare? I dont know if the vehicle inspections care if odo's been rolled back, just that it meets requirements for rideshare

          • pegaxs on 20/06/2023 - 11:33
            +1

            @Gdsamp:

            Depends what cars you were checking,

            It was random cars and utes, around 10+ years old and only the ones that had rego showing or listed and up to 500km from where I live.

        • rumblytangara on 20/06/2023 - 13:10
          +1

          I did about ten cars (plates found on FB) and found nothing out of order, then someone suggested looking at specific makes/models.

          So I shifted from boring Japanese family cars to Pajeros, and the suddenly the rate of dodgy readings shot up.

      • dcep on 20/06/2023 - 16:17

        Maybe he tested 4 sample size and found 1 to be fraudulent. Hehehe.

        • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 17:08

          Definitely possible. As possible as ppl on Ozb having been victim of the odo scam I guess. Or who knows, some the scammer themselves?
          Humans

        • pegaxs on 20/06/2023 - 21:23
          +2

          For the record, it was about 20 and found about 5. Took me about an hour to find 20 that had number plates showing.

  • brendanm on 20/06/2023 - 10:30

    Those numbers don't really make any sense. Why are there so many so close together time wise? Two on the same day, then they do 12,000km in less than 3 months?

    What do the service records say?

    • [Deactivated] on 20/06/2023 - 10:37
      +3

      Maybe a failed rego check and came back later to get the 'pass'. Renewed rego for 3 months and then had another rego check. In the mean time they drove around Australia?

    • freefall101 on 20/06/2023 - 11:12
      +3

      Probably an deliver/uber driver. Seems a logical scam, get a car, rack up a pile of km on it in a short period of time, wind it back to something reasonable and sell it on for a similar price to what was paid for it because it won't be old.

      • brendanm on 20/06/2023 - 13:45

        Every two months?

  • coffeeinmyveins on 20/06/2023 - 10:39
    +3

    I would get on the forward foot and report it yourself before it comes back to you via other means. If you have the original facebook, gumtree or other ad showing the odo reading, screenshot that asap.

    I wonder how many second hand car dealers are currently sweating bullets at the release of this information.

    • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 10:49

      Agree, be proactive. Get it in the system.
      But methinks there'd be more private ppl doing it, but I doubt they get any attention from the plod or whoever deals with speedo fraud.

      Either way it's making $$ from deception. Fraud

  • blitz on 20/06/2023 - 10:50

    OK. Instead, could it be that the rego website is not reporting the right odo data? To me it's very surprising that so many people are discovering cases of this. I just don't think it's likely.

    • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 10:59
      +6

      Maybe Russian interference. Making us turn against each other. Fight to the death over dodgy odos

    • coffeeinmyveins on 20/06/2023 - 11:11

      I seriously doubt that there is an occasional issue with mis-reporting of ODO readings on a GOV website. Are you suggesting that it's showing ODO readings from multiple vehicles in the same vehicle thread?

      What's more likely is that people have committed fraud and this is now coming out.

      • blitz on 20/06/2023 - 11:17
        +2

        Well, anyone who's worked with large-scale data uplifts would know that weird data artefacts are possible and not uncommon. Winding back an odo is not straightforward. As it happens I have a spare dash cluster sitting here on my desk, and while I could change the odo reading it would take a while to do it. To do it at the kind of scale required for seemingly so many people to be identifying it in their cars - I just think that there is a simpler explanation here. To me, that simpler explanation is that the data itself is erroneous.

        • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 11:28

          Can't ppl just buy a second hand lower kms instrument cluster and swap it out?
          Check them out on fleabay
          https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1…

          This is just one make/model.(Holden Commodore VE) Over 340 listed. Hard to believe that owners of those models need them replaced for faults. (Then there's all the other makes/models) So this is the supply side 'because demand' ?

          Will the odo reading data change the demand or the price?

          TLDR: I think your being too hard on the data resource and too soft on human nature.

          • blitz on 20/06/2023 - 12:05
            +1

            @Protractor:

            Can't ppl just buy a second hand lower kms instrument cluster and swap it out?

            Yes, there would be any number of ways to do it. But swapping a dash cluster is not as easy as, say, changing a tyre and most people would have a job doing that. To do it so that there are no errors, and that the other connections still work takes effort and some skill. Hacking a CANbus is even harder. What I'm saying is that the effort required to do it makes it unappealing and/or unattainable for most people.

            The availability of VE dash clusters is not surprising given the popularity of the model, and that dash clusters are not as easy to source from Holden itself (given that it doesn't exist anymore). That's why there are 570+ VE steering wheels:
            https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p233452…
            …and 11,000+ results for commodore ve headlights:
            https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p233452…
            The fact is, you can either wreck a car or part it out: the availability of dash clusters on the second hand market is not an indicator of large scale odo fraud.

            TLDR: I think if someone wants to blame other people they'll find a way to do it.

            • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 12:28

              @blitz: The VE was just an example. Point? There's a market. Is it justified as lots of dodgy odos? Maybe, but anecdotally have not seen that pop up,( anyone? )
              Yes I do know cars are parted out & all components fall into the list. That link was to show readers 2nd hand lower km they are out there, for those who dare.I'm curious as to whether the data is dodgy and/or how many ppl here report back as accurate numbers for their cars.
              Opportunity for a real poll.

              Buyer beware applies, but I still say the tampering number is likely to be higher than we think, and the data more accurate than you hope. Humans

              EDIT. Just checked 2 random Commutes on GT. Second one went back from 2 readings over 140K kms to 61K kms

              • brendanm on 20/06/2023 - 13:50
                +1

                @Protractor: In lots of cars you can't just swap the cluster, as it is either part of the immobiliser system, or various parts talk to each other, and any discrepancy is flagged. There are ways to do it on these, but in lots.if cases it's far harder than swapping the cluster.

                • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 14:08

                  @brendanm: It may be hard, but ppl still hack, then share the info online.It's like they live in bubbles where they think nobody outside the forum (etc) looks in. I mean check out the online websites and news stories screaming out about secret holiday destinations etc.
                  Then they(everyone wonders) why the place fills up or gets trashed by exploitation via ppl discovering it from the 'secret' write up.
                  Humans

                  • brendanm on 20/06/2023 - 15:09
                    -1

                    @Protractor: It's not that easy. You need expensive tools, knowledge, ability to solder surface mount components in some cases.

                    • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 15:42

                      @brendanm: Looking fwd to seeing how rife it is or isn't.
                      If it is, rife, then either ppl are smarter than given credit, and just maybe there's potential of a racket of individuals or locations doing the conversions.Someone is making all them lower km ebay 2nd clutsers fire up again.

                      When it comes to +$$$> human nature

                      • Euphemistic on 21/06/2023 - 08:31

                        @Protractor: In the good old days of a mechanical ODO it was easy to go to the wreckers and buy a lower km dash cluster - but they did sell pretty quick for popular cars. Half a dozen screws and some wriggling around in the dash.

                        Now it’s probably ‘easier’ in respect to changing some electronic parameters but it probably requires more equipment and knowledge to do it.

      • brad1-8tsi on 20/06/2023 - 14:05

        My data is spot-on.

        It will be interesting to see when the insurance companies that offer "limited yearly mileage" policies start using this data to deny claims.

        • coffeeinmyveins on 20/06/2023 - 14:07

          They already will because they ask for ODO reading, they don't need to go through rego check site to get this.

          • Euphemistic on 20/06/2023 - 15:16

            @coffeeinmyveins: Now just makes it harder to game the system. You can’t make up a figure for the insurer if they can relatively easily check it via rego.

          • brad1-8tsi on 20/06/2023 - 16:17

            @coffeeinmyveins:

            they ask for ODO reading,

            Do you think people wouldn't try and game the system?

  • hasselbladsnapper on 20/06/2023 - 11:24
    +2

    Only buy a vehicle with consistant servicing records!

  • CurlCurl on 20/06/2023 - 11:38

    The figures below for my vehicle from Service NSW are correct.

    351,372 km
    22 February 2023

    346,346 km
    16 February 2022

    339,003 km
    25 February 2021

  • CurlCurl on 20/06/2023 - 11:41

    This from Transport NSW.

    Transport for NSW makes no warranty or guarantee as to the accuracy of odometer readings. The most recent odometer readings provided to Transport for NSW, usually by third parties as a result of previous registration inspections are recorded here, however Transport for NSW cannot verify their accuracy. A maximum of three readings will be displayed. It is recommended that customers view the vehicle’s log book and service history and make their own enquiries as to the vehicle’s odometer reading. If the fields are blank, there have been no readings provided to Transport for NSW.

    If you suspect odometer tampering or fraud has occurred, please refer to the Buying a vehicle guide.

  • spackbace on 20/06/2023 - 11:44

    Hope you did a PPSR…

    • CurlCurl on 20/06/2023 - 11:48
      -2

      Hope you did a PPSR…

      It's my current vehicle. Owned it from new,

      • spackbace on 20/06/2023 - 11:55
        +5

        I decided to do a check for a Totoyta Camry I had purchased a week ago from a private seller.

        Wasn't replying to you. If you see a reply under your comment, it's directed to you. If it's not, it's directed to the OP…

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 20/06/2023 - 11:44

    Got any proof the private seller you bought the car off owned it prior to 9 October 2022? Receipt from a previous service, previous transfer etc?

    If so - I'd consider having a crack at them.

  • GOMOOTYPRO on 20/06/2023 - 12:05

    Do you have the link for the free rego check?

  • Ocker on 20/06/2023 - 12:14
    -1

    Try Google

  • randomusername2017 on 20/06/2023 - 12:21

    87 MODIFIED AS PER REPORT NUMBER - 1100232000xxxMP ISSUED 20201211

    Anyone know the significance of this section?
    Not seeing any similar entries on my vehicles.

    • kerfuffle on 20/06/2023 - 12:27
      +2

      Looks like it's been modified. E.g. if you add a sunroof to a non-sunroof car, you have that entry.

      • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 12:50

        ….add reliability to a Captiva…

    • turbochris on 21/06/2023 - 08:20
      +2

      Code 87 is when the car has an engineering certificate for modifications.

      • Cliche Guevara on 21/06/2023 - 14:50

        So possibly an engine swap to one with lower kilometres…

        • turbochris on 21/06/2023 - 15:01
          +2

          Could be but there is no engineering certificate needed to swap out an engine for the same type of engine, or any engine optioned by the manufacturer in that model.

          Usually it means:

          • Engine swap - performance engine from a different model or manufacturer - e.g V8 engine in a Corolla
          • Suspension or other modifications (big lift kits)
          • Disability modifications - e.g. Rear wheelchair ramp in vans
          • LHD to RHD conversion
          • Campervan conversion
            etc.

          Engineering certificates cost quite a bit ($1k++) - would only be done if necessary.

          Of course many people don't bother with engineering until they get a defect and need to get an engineering certificate to get it cleared.

          So not really a sign of shonkyness - actually the opposite.

  • Protractor on 20/06/2023 - 12:53
    +1

    Discussion about cluster issues with interesting points (italics)

    https://forums.justcommodores.com.au/threads/ve-dash-not-wor…

    " Their are various places that can reprogram any cluster to your vin and any kilometres you want. Plenty of second hand ones on eBay and some advertised including reprogramming for a couple of hundred bucks or so. Some second hand ones for as little as $50 so worth just getting one And giving it a shot. Cheaper than a sparky"

    • toomuchdogfur on 20/06/2023 - 14:07

      I was looking into upgrading VW/Skoda cars from the standard instrument cluster to "Virtual Cockpit" - the odometer data is stored on the cluster itself, so your car would show the odo of whatever the original donor car was. So an experienced mechanic could simply swap in a cluster from a younger donor car to get a lower odo reading, no "rollback" required!

      Additionally the odometer could only be rolled upwards by simulating a speed signal to the cluster, meaning that if your donor car had significantly less kilometres than your target car, it could take days or even weeks to get your new cluster to the correct odo reading. The somewhat amusing conclusion to this is that dealers reselling the clusters would charge you additional $$$ to do the right thing and roll odo up to your correct reading… so I could imagine some people just wanting the new clusters and not paying for odo rollup driving around with dodgy odometer readings as well.

  • kiitos on 21/06/2023 - 08:31

    Just checked mine and it seemed accurate.

    Then checked a random car that was driving past and was surprised at the small changes in readings for such a long time:

    Odometer readings*
    37,905 km
    31 May 2022
    35,772 km
    7 October 2021
    32,744 km
    1 October 2020

    Not saying it's wrong, just unusual.

    • [Deactivated] on 21/06/2023 - 08:53
      +1

      That's might be my Mum's 2008 Corolla, she only drives to the supermarket & art class once a week, still has the original tyres!

      • Protractor on 21/06/2023 - 09:59

        Them tyres have growth rings by know

      • kerfuffle on 21/06/2023 - 20:55
        +1

        Your mum should get new tyres

  • turbochris on 21/06/2023 - 15:02

    Is the car modified? Did you get a copy of the engineering certificate? (You are required to carry it in the vehicle at all times).

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