Hot Water Home Needs

Lsavanaethen on 12/06/2023 - 20:28

I have an outdated hot water system. Recently ceased to function. However, the plumber advised that I might be better off replacing the entire unit if it fails again. gave me a price for work.

Options for continuous flow were not provided.

Which current standard is used? What are the most common installations in homes to heat the water? A continual flow or storage? What are each's benefits and drawbacks? And how do their prices compare? (Costs for setup and maintenance). What about the solar hot water system? Are they energy efficient as compared to electric hot water systems?

Six-person family I have. frequently exceeding the capacity of the hot water.

Electrical & Electronics Hot Water System

Comments

  • boomramada on 12/06/2023 - 20:35
    +1

    You ask plumber for what best for you and price?

  • thatonethere on 12/06/2023 - 20:40

    We have gas continual flow. Problem is that gas not really encouraged any more. Pity as it was good. Trick is to grt the unit close as possible to all hot water services…

    Still have a lng bbq and stove so supply charge dont bother me much.

    • jv on 12/06/2023 - 22:49
      -1

      Problem is that gas not really encouraged any more.

      Who cares?

      • mskeggs on 12/06/2023 - 23:20
        +2

        It will cost increasingly more over time. Gas is already costlier than PV electric or electric heat pumps, there is no suggestion this will reverse. There is an argument to run existing systems to their economical life, but not install new , costlier and more polluting systems when cheaper whole-of-life systems are available

        • jv on 12/06/2023 - 23:34

          costlier

          How much are we exporting it for?

          • Mad Max on 13/06/2023 - 10:15
            +2

            @jv: It has nothing to do with being reasonable or getting best value.
            All to do with politics, narrative and current trend.
            Years ago the government was giving money to install LPG systems on cars. Best, cheapest and cleanest fuel they said. And IT IS. Now it is not trendy any more. Now cars MUST be electric!
            Everything is dictated by politics and taxpayer money grants and funding is thrown at the latest trend to make it economically viable. At the same time good and already viable solutions are made more expensive to force people to change. All in the name of climate change. It does not matter how much pollution is caused to prematurely and forcibly change a system that works.

            • jv on 13/06/2023 - 12:00
              -1

              @Mad Max:

              Now cars MUST be electric!

              Even though they pollute more ?

              That is absurd that they would do that.

              • ForkSnorter on 14/06/2023 - 07:46

                @jv: Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

                • jv on 14/06/2023 - 09:28

                  @ForkSnorter:

                  Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

                  No, in Vic 75% of the electricity used to charge these comes from burning brown coal.
                  Petrol is much cleaner burning that brown coal.

                  • ForkSnorter on 14/06/2023 - 10:45

                    @jv: I think there are other factors to consider. On an individual basis, it can be cleaner to use an EV. My friend has his roof nearly totally covered in solar panels, and barely uses any electricity from the grid. So his EV does not pollute as much as a petrol car.

                    Also, at the local level, driving an EV is obviously better for your immediate environment and your own safety than driving a petrol or diesel-powered car. I don't know sensitive you are to pollution, but I get a sore throat if I'm stuck in a traffic jam for ages with thousands of cars all around me. That pollution isn't caused by EVs. Diesel causes cancer. The heavy metals in car exhaust pollution increase the risk of alzheimers.

                    • jv on 14/06/2023 - 13:43

                      @ForkSnorter:

                      On an individual basis, it can be cleaner to use an EV.

                      Climate change does not work that way, it is based on the net difference.

                      • ForkSnorter on 14/06/2023 - 13:53

                        @jv: EVs have the potential to be almost completely carbon-neutral over their lifetime. Petrol and diesel cars don't. As the electricity grid becomes cleaner, EVs will be far better for the environment than petrol cars.

                        Your statement "Even though they pollute more?" is a little simplistic. In the immediate local environment, EVs don't pollute at all.

                        A recent study found that people who live on or near a main road are at much higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease (this is also consistent with the knowledge that consumption of heavy metals increases the risk of Alzheimer's disease). Not to mention the risk of lung cancer from breathing diesel exhaust fumes on the road and in houses on main roads. These risks are obviously not caused by EVs.

                        • jv on 14/06/2023 - 13:59

                          @ForkSnorter:

                          EVs have the potential to be almost completely carbon-neutral over their lifetime.

                          Keyword is 'potential'.

                          Maybe in 20-30 years they will. The ones at present, definitely won't.

                        • jv on 14/06/2023 - 14:00

                          @ForkSnorter:

                          In the immediate local environment, EVs don't pollute at all.

                          Not locally, all the smoke, pollutants and carbon are being emitted in Gippsland instead…

                          • ForkSnorter on 15/06/2023 - 08:28

                            @jv: I checked out some sources for this claim. I would say it's bordering on being out of date.

                            This 2019 paper submitted to the Australian government's "The Climate Change Authority" states:

                            Even when EVs are powered by our current energy mix, they still produce significantly less carbon per kilometre in every state except Victoria where electricity emissions are marginally higher. That is expected to change as the Victorian Renewable Energy Target is met.

                            Since then, the Victorian electricity grid has continued to become greener, and it's possible that it is now more environmentally friendly to drive an EV, or will be very soon.
                            Sources:
                            Victorian Renewable Energy Target
                            Graph showing greening of VIC electricity grid up to 2020

                            • jv on 15/06/2023 - 09:01

                              @ForkSnorter: They are hardly from neutral sources.

                              • ForkSnorter on 15/06/2023 - 09:10

                                @jv: These aren't wild claims though. And the first source agrees with your claim. Not sure what you think's wrong with these sources. Two of them are from government websites. The Victorian grid is gradually getting greener and it's not really that far behind the other states.

        • boomramada on 13/06/2023 - 11:23
          +1

          It will cost increasingly more over time

          Till then I would use gas, instent continuous heating and currently way cheaper.

          • mskeggs on 13/06/2023 - 13:37
            +1

            @boomramada: Continuous is good to use, but electric heat pump is already way cheaper that instant gas, and will be even more so after 1 July price rises.
            And if you can get solar panels the whole ongoing cost can be eliminated.

            • boomramada on 13/06/2023 - 13:53
              +1

              @mskeggs: Sorry I was referring to installation cost, I got a perfectly working gas system, and I don't wanna spend $5k more for some running cost benefits. Maybe if my system got a breakdown.
              But then again I prefer gas cooking as well.

              Based on my past billing, most of the cost for me is connection chargers.

        • thatonethere on 13/06/2023 - 19:59
          +1

          Oh the other thing that gas had for us was that it worked even if it was -5 outside. Where as your electric heatpump is defrosting… maybe you can put the outdoor unit under the house to avoid that.

  • AndyC1 on 12/06/2023 - 21:03

    So what did the plumber include in the quote and how much was it?

  • FloatingPoint on 12/06/2023 - 21:06
    +1

    Do you have gas supply or 3 phase power? If no, than no continuous flow for you.
    Solar hws are expensive and do not last. You may as well get solar PV installed and hook up a regular electric storage hws with a timer.

    • LVlahov on 12/06/2023 - 23:19
      +1

      We have solar PV and went with an electric boosted HWS, agree that this is the wrong choice these days but think regular electric is also a no go, timer or not.

      I would definitely be going for a Heat Pump HWS (largest you can get) with solar PV on the roof. Especially for a large family, annual bills will work out far less than electric alone, timer or not, especially if you favour being able to have hot water 24/7.

  • Marty156 on 12/06/2023 - 21:15
    +2

    Put a normal off-peak type hot water system (Bunnings even), add solar PV to house and install HWS with a time clock to only operate between say 11 AM and 4 PM (winter) and earlier to later times in summer.

    No power bill for 10 years on simple 5kW PV system.
    (Only two adults though with 360 litre HWS tank)

    Threw out a useless gas continues heat system, that took forever to get hot water to the sink.

    • mskeggs on 12/06/2023 - 22:16

      This is right, but I voted you down because of the error about “off-peak”. If people wire it up to the off-peak circuit, it will never use their solar PV.

      • Marty156 on 13/06/2023 - 08:31
        +1

        Incorrect!
        I stated a "off-peak type" hot water system - meaning the TANK. Sorry if not clear enough.
        No mention of connecting to an off-peak TARRIF, which -as you said- would be stupid! (And you would be charging (pun intended) yourself for the cost of the hotwater as the meter would be going backwards).

    • jv on 12/06/2023 - 22:51
      -2

      that took forever to get hot water to the sink.

      You can't wait 3 seconds?

      • Marty156 on 13/06/2023 - 08:32

        Took 45 seconds to fill sink one and half times before it got hot.

        • jv on 13/06/2023 - 09:35

          faulty unit? not enough gas pressure?

  • Aureus on 12/06/2023 - 21:28
    +3

    Heat pump + solar PV is hard to beat. Tank is effectively the cheapest, lowest maintenance battery you can get. Depending where you live you may also get good rebates for heat pump.

  • tsunamisurfer on 12/06/2023 - 21:32
    -1

    I have a solar hot water system and it is great. Hot water for free 8 months out of 12, I don't even turn on the booster between Sept to April and it has a timer (there is simply no need).

    However I am in Perth, in other part of Australia is might differ.

    If you have abotu 4 hours of sunlight a day that is enough to heat 300L of hot water. If the kids come home from school and shower earlier in the day there will still be enough sunlight to have another full 300L for the adults later in the evening.

    • LVlahov on 12/06/2023 - 23:27

      We have the same experience, also in Perth, purely on solar 8 months of the year.. but it is still a bit of a pain for the remaining 4. Either a couple of expensive/high use bills, or moderate bills but some patches of luke warm/coldish water if we in any way deviate too far from our regular wash schedule. Our system isn't on a pure north facing roof though, and I believe that could make a difference.

      Solar Hot Water systems have also gotten incredibly expensive though, and I'd say based on our savings vs being on pure gas prior to our solar hot water installation two years ago, our break even would be out to around 10 years at best. Heat Pump hot water, being $1~$2k cheaper than solar hot water, with similar or even lower power usage profile would I think work out cheaper for most, particularly heavy water users.

  • atris17 on 12/06/2023 - 21:53

    I was renovating my whole house, and had no gas in my area.
    So I was force to used Electric Hot Water Tank
    So this is what I did

    Electric Hot Water tank 400L + Solar Panels +[Paladin Solar Power Diverter]! = Decrease Utility Bill

    What you need is the missing link - Paladin Solar Controller
    Excess Solar Energy is diverted to the Hot Water tank
    Hot water tank act as a Battery, storing excess energy in the form of heat
    Large Hot water tank last the night, for variety purpose Eg shower, kitchen tap, washing machine etc
    By morning the Hot water tank get heated up again with Excess Solar Energy up to 70c
    Instead of selling the KWH excess energy to the grid at 5cent/kwh, try to use as much which cost 30cent/kwh
    On Days with bad sun exposure, the Paladin keep the Hot Water tank at minimum 40c
    To prevent legionnaire diseas.

    Check it out: http://www.paladinsolarcontroller.com.au/
    Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnuNXKzdxXI

    Speak to Mark from Paladin, i deal with him when he came to my house
    He does an initial consultation, to check whether the hot water tank and solar panel up for it
    Very Friendly, easy to talk too
    He is base in Brisbane
    Save loads on the Utility Bill
    Also install the methven 5L/min showerhead

    • mskeggs on 12/06/2023 - 22:46

      Not sure why you would need some special hot water system controller if you just set your simple electric system to only heat during sunlight hours.
      I suppose maybe in very extreme conditions with a lot of cloud cover?
      Would it ever pay back in Brisbane?

  • mskeggs on 12/06/2023 - 22:43
    +2

    Similar boat to you as our HWS has failed.
    We had a solar system, so I looked into that first as low bills obviously appeals.
    Sadly, the quote for a 300L Solahart system was $6000. This is nuts, and something like $2500 more than 5 years ago.
    A Solarhart style system claims about 3kW in heating power, it isn’t clear to me how this calculation is made (I suppose a 1square meter area collects about 1kW at the equator, so it must be close). But it must vary where I am around Sydney due to the variation in daylight over the year.
    A PV system of the same approx capacity - 3kW, is around $3000. Figure an extra $1500 for the hot water tank that runs on electricity and you start out $1500 ahead, plus any benefits when the hot water is fully heated and the power can be sent back to the grid or used elsewhere.

    The remaining advantage of a solar HWS is it is dumb and doesn’t need power in a blackout. If I take the $1500 saving and invest it in a battery system, I can get an islanding compatible system for a starting price around $3k. So a net $1500 extra to get blackout protection, but also a few kilowatts of free power everyday, compared to only sustained hot water in a blackout.

    The most disappointing thing about solar hot water for me was that the Solahart system only lasted 15 years. 15 years is pretty good for a hot water system, I have had to replace them after 12 years, but the failure for this one was corrosion at a point where it could have been avoided with a better design.

    So my conclusion is simple:
    Never give Solahart any money - they are more expensive than alternatives, and they design their systems for failure.

    FWIW it took 4 emails and calls to get somebody out to see what was the issue before the $6k bill was offered.

    • LVlahov on 12/06/2023 - 23:31

      We went with Solarhart SHWS 2 years back, 320L electric booster for $5,500 and agree with everything you say. Not due for an anode replacement yet but swear I could see the beginnings of rust around the bottom of the tank just today when I looked at it (I hope not).
      We went for them because "Australian made" which is important to us, but the overall solution still needs to be cost competitive with competing technologies on the market…

    • Gotchas on 13/06/2023 - 05:38

      Who did you end up using?

      • mskeggs on 13/06/2023 - 07:19

        Local plumber.

  • AustriaBargain on 13/06/2023 - 04:21

    I have continuous gas in my place. It's great, can shower all day long. Problem is if the power goes out then it stops working, it needs electricity to function for some reason. It's just nice knowing that if someone has a 40 minute steaming hot shower that you can jump right in and have your own steaming how shower. There's so few luxuries in our lives and a long steaming hot shower is not one I am willing to give up, especially since the tub doesn't work because the whole house is falling apart. Turning myself into a lobster in the tub was my favourite thing about my old place.

  • jumpypotato53 on 13/06/2023 - 09:42

    I just replaced my HWS because my previous gas tank failed. We installed a 270L heat pump system. Three people in the house, it is working great. We live in the Wollongong NSW area. For 6 you would need a larger tank, or maybe 2 of those.

    • DoctorCalculon on 13/06/2023 - 19:41

      We installed a 270L heat pump system.

      Was it the EVO270-1?

      • jumpypotato53 on 14/06/2023 - 00:25

        Hydrotherm DYNAMIC/X8
        In some states you should be able to get a gov rebate. Ask your plumber.
        We got about 900 dollars rebate. We needed to pay about 2800 out of our pockets.

        • DoctorCalculon on 14/06/2023 - 13:10

          For VIC, you can claim the Solar Homes rebate (max $1000) in addition to VEEC & STCs for a supply and install.
          I think it is still the case you can only claim the Solar Homes rebate once per property.

  • saltypete on 13/06/2023 - 09:44

    We are waiting for our continuous gas HWS to kark it and we’ll go to a heat pump electric.
    Well then replace dump gas completely and get rid of the ever increasing ‘service’ fee.
    We have a battery system, so the financial argument is not as strong as PV only, but still worth it.

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