Why Are Australians Not Kicking up a Fuss Like The French Do?

Lkaoz on 29/03/2023 - 19:25
Last edited 31/03/2023 - 23:28 by 1 other user

As of 1st July 2023 the age pension eligibility in Australia will be raised yet again to 67 years, for people born after 1st January 1957.

Our social system is declining with more and more social services being privatised and becoming unaffordable to low-income families and individuals.

Why are we not on the streets demanding better living condition and a more equal distribution of wealth, while letting big corporations get away with not paying their fair share of taxes and spending billions of dollars on nuclear submarines.

Has Australia gotten too soft?

Edit: what would it take for Aussies to get up and protest for their rights?
Edit2: definition of aged pension

Education & Work

Comments

  • Drakesy on 29/03/2023 - 19:39
    +102

    People are living till an older age, it's a bit like tax indexation against inflation

    Personally i think the younger generations will have enough of a burden trying to just live rather than support a generation of people who admittedly had it fairly cruisy (from a financial perspective). It's unfair that yes we're penalising them when they get to this age (it'll probably be 70 by then) but additional years on the pension will only hurt the economy in the long run.

    If they weren't already behind the eight ball enough younger generations get the privilege to support baby boomers, pay for their pensions and healthcare while they struggle to even buy their first house and then get blamed for being too frivolous with money. How great is intergenerational wealth!

    • kaoz on 29/03/2023 - 20:08
      +1

      I don’t think the economy should be our main concern to be honest. At least not the economy in its current shape. It should be the well-being of the population that should be the main priority - I mean that is literally supposed to be the job of our elected representatives.
      But I concur with your sentiment about the burden of the younger generations. Add to that an increase in climate catastrophes - especially in AU - and stagnant wages and they do have a heavy cross to bear.

      • garetz on 29/03/2023 - 23:05
        +43

        So says someone who has never lived through a recession let alone a depression. The economy reflects the well being of the population, you basically have no idea what you are talking about.

        • kaoz on 30/03/2023 - 09:16
          +44

          How a country treats it’s weakest, most unfortunate members is what reflects on the well-being of a population. If we have 120.000 homeless people but the economy is in full swing, then all is well? Maybe reconsider your values.

          • Papa Huggies on 30/03/2023 - 10:01
            +4

            @kaoz: "If we have 120.000 homeless people but the economy is in full swing, then all is well?"

            That's the CCP's metric for evaluating how they're doing. People in Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen are rich? Winning. Forget about the homeless and the people living in the regional villages with open sewerage.

            Basically, you can absolutely have a thriving economy while having the population suffering due to wealth disparity. The Top 1% end up heavily inflating GDP metrics.

            • thewiseone on 30/03/2023 - 10:27
              +23

              @Papa Huggies: The CCP part is not entirely correct. In the past 40 years they have lifted around 800 million of their population out of poverty.

              https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l…

              • Papa Huggies on 30/03/2023 - 10:47
                +4

                @thewiseone: Hey happy to have been proven wrong! Thanks for the read.

                My point still stands although the example seems to be outdated. A strong economy doesn't have 1:1 correlation with the well-being of the population.

              • Blitzfx on 31/03/2023 - 15:34
                -3

                @thewiseone:

                To take stock of this achievement, a joint study was undertaken by China’s Ministry of Finance, the Development Research Center (DRC) of the State Council, and the World Bank, with the China Center for International Knowledge on Development (CIKD) acting as the implementing agency.

                Ah yes, because any and all self-reporting or data gathering from China is reliable just like the covid cases

                • kaoz on 31/03/2023 - 19:05

                  @Blitzfx: And Australia is different how exactly?

                  • Blitzfx on 31/03/2023 - 23:56
                    +1

                    @kaoz: You shouldn't participate in discussion if don't know the difference between the CCP and Australia

                    • kaoz on 01/04/2023 - 08:44

                      @Blitzfx: Where do I find the face-palm emoji?

              • kaoz on 31/03/2023 - 19:04
                +2

                @thewiseone: Exactly. We’re being quite badly mislead by the portrayal of china in our western media. Their foreign policy heavily relies on cooperating with other countries, helping to lift third world nations out of poverty and providing loans that are way more favourable than those of the IMF. Aussie foreign policy, as copied from the US’s, consists mainly of aggravating and berating and then using military force (or providing its recourses to their US allies) to intervene. It’s shameful and only leads to more conflict.
                The CCP has done a lot for their people, arguably with a few blunders along the way, but definitely not as terrible as the Murdoch media would have you believe.

              • Maxxjet on 31/03/2023 - 20:05
                +3

                @thewiseone: " …..past 40 years they have lifted around 800 million of their population out of poverty……." Everytime I see someone using this line I cannot help but saying wake up. The CCP has been in power since 1949, what have they done in their first 30 years? lifting pepole outy of poverty, is that a mercy? or blessing from the heaven? from their Marxist Gods? That is every government must do, it is bloody not their 'merit" or their "achievement", they use force to stay in power, so what do you expect them to do? Have millions of people keep living with hunger? Earn a living with $2 a day? If CCP bloody cannot do the basic, they shoud go (profanity) themselve in grave. Wake up!

                • kaoz on 31/03/2023 - 20:50
                  +1

                  @Maxxjet: I highly suggest you stop watching Sky news.

                  • Maxxjet on 01/04/2023 - 10:24
                    +2

                    @kaoz: I highly suggest you stop watching CCTV news or whatever propaganda CCP throw at you. This CCP regime is one of the most evil ever in human history. People worried most of CCP are Hong Kongers and Taiwanese, why? They are Chinese themselve and they know too well what CCP's true colour is.

                    • kaoz on 01/04/2023 - 10:43
                      -3

                      @Maxxjet: They worry because they’re under the thumb of the US, much like Australia. And what we get to see on the news is McCarthyism in the 21st century. There’s a Cold War unfolding against China because the US hegemony is under threat and they need the backing of the public to go through with their aggravating policies. Most of these so-called experts on China don’t even speak mandarin yet they’re here to tell us how much of a threat they are. It’s absurd and farcical. People just swallow whatever Sunrise and 9News feeds them.

                      • Maxxjet on 01/04/2023 - 17:36
                        +1

                        @kaoz: So you chose to believe what CCP's mouthpiece CCTV's story? And believe all Chinese own the CCP a huge favor because they were allowed by Lord CCP to be out of poverty by working their ass off? and be forever in debt to the CCP overloard because of the "996" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system give them jobs? CCP claims they have created 40 years prosperity in China, what they bloody didn't tell you is how much they have enriched themselves out of the blood and flesh of oridianry Chinese (one simple example - https://www.smh.com.au/national/son-of-chinas-former-vicepre…). Chinese's economic achievement has bloody zero relationship with CCP. If you know at least a shred of Chinese history, you can easily find out, historically in the last 2000 years, whenever the Chinese government stops to be as***le for as little as 15 - 20 years, the Chinese people would create amazing economic achievements, these stories have been repeated time and time again even in places like HK, Taiwan and to some extend, Singapore and amaong overseas Chinese. Throughtout south east Asia, overseas Chinese created large number of successful enterperises, these have bloody zero business to do with CCP. If CCP were not in power, China would have been just like Japan, South Korea to be advanced to free and prosperous world, and peacefully as early as in the 1950s.

                        Since 1949, tens of millions Chinese perished under CCP's brutal regime, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China_(1949%E2%80%931976), and any decent Chinese should never forget the 1989 Tiananmen square massacre, and nobody as a human being should forget how Covid-19 was covered by CCP and caused millions of death worldwide. I am quite honestly shocked to learn that people in the West with free media and aboundance of resources chose to believe CCP's bloody illogic propaganda! How sad!

                        • kaoz on 02/04/2023 - 06:51

                          @Maxxjet: Look, I get it. I understand your criticism of China and it’s politics. And up until about a year ago I would have completely agreed with you. But you fail to see that we are just as much subject to propaganda as we blame onto others, if not more so. It’s only because our propaganda comes at us in our language, from faces that look like ours and with symbols and words like “freedom” and “democracy” that we are easily bamboozled into believing everything we hear. After all, we all grew up with this propaganda and the red scare and everyone always believed communism was evil and 100million people died under it etc etc. Naturally this continues throughout the generations, unless we start becoming a little more sceptic of what we hear and see on our news. We need to take our own media with just as hefty a chunk of salt as we would with any foreign media outlet.
                          You may remember how our “free media”, as you so beautifully put it, regurgitated and inundated us with the myth that Saddam Hussain had Weapons of mass destruction hidden somewhere in Iraq and he was out to kill us all, if we didn’t immediately intervene to this threat to our global peace.
                          Even after Saddam invited UN weapons inspectors into the country, gave them full access to any sites they wanted to visit and even to places they weren’t even aware of, the accusations in our media continued. What followed should be known by now, but the US invaded the country, slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, flooded the country with weapons, destabilised the economy and pushed thousands of young people into extremism and fanned hate against westerners. The Aussie government was quick to jump on board and joined the US invasion, clearly making life much safer for us Aussies /s.
                          Another example is the free and prosperous South Korea you talked about. It was the US military, spearheaded by General MacArthur, that occupied the south, funded right a right wing puppet government and right wing militias that killed thousands of people and struck down repeated calls by both the south and the north for reunification (this is by the way before the war even officially began). The populations have repeatedly called for reunification after the war as well, but the southern government refused any negotiations.
                          To this day, the US has its largest overseas military base in South Korea at Camp Humphreys, which receives over US$10bn annually in funding.
                          https://time.com/5324575/us-camp-humphreys-south-korea-large…
                          South Korea is thus practically still militarily occupied by the US. Or do you think they could one day get up and say “hey, we are a free and sovereign nation and we’d like to take sovereign control of our land, politics and military. Could you please leave us to deal with our own business?” Do you really think the US would accept this request because Korea is truly “free”?
                          Similarly with Japan and Australia as well. The fact that the US has military bases around the world and does not need to adhere to local laws on these bases, makes it look a lot more like an imperial force rather than a benevolent protector. (Don’t get me started on the spying activities that Edward Snowden revealed or CIA psy ops and election meddling in, again, “free and democratic” countries around the world.)
                          How many more countries around the world could have ACTUALLY been peaceful, free and democratic, if it wasn’t for US (and by proxy Australian [read: Argentina, Indonesia, East Timor, etx] ) meddling. It is only because of their constant aggression, intervention and subversion that many developing countries are at constant unrest and in the dire straights we see them in today.
                          And they’re still at it, for example by funding and training Islamic state terrorists in Xinjiang.

                          If you’d like to read more about Australia’s connection to US policies, I can’t recommend the book “Subimperial Power” enough. This book, written by former Australian intelligence analysts Clinton Fernandez, provides excellent insights into Australia’s role in the international arena, what guides our foreign policy and also touches on our current and historical relationship with China. It’s a short, easy to read and very recent book wich means it’s pretty up to date with current affairs and provides an unbiased look at modern Australian politics. Mandatory reading for anyone interested in our political landscape. You should be able to find it at your local library if you don’t want to spend any money on a book that you may be critical about.

                          Sorry for the tangent, but to get back to your points; first of all it’s ironic that in one breath you praise the entrepreneurial spirit and achievements of Chinese people overseas, but condemn them when they are linked to the government. It’s the same thing, people get rich ultra because they exploit others. [Many an overseas Chinese (obviously not only Chinese but many among them)“entrepreneur” is controlling slave labour(i.e. on southeast Asian fishing vessels or in mines across Asia and Africa), human trafficking and the drug trade(such as meth production in the golden triangle). “Amazing entrepreneurial achievements!!” /s. ]
                          Australia and many Australian businesses are doing the same thing. The only difference is that we don’t this to our own people(so much, anymore). We’ve outsourced wage-slavery and exploitation to developing nations (China among them) so we don’t have to look at the misery and become filthy rich in the process. The blood and flesh of hundreds of thousands of people around the world is directly connected to a large chunk of Australia’s economy and is enriching many of us along the way. But you don’t see the Aussie government doing anything about that either. No, we actively destabilise the economies and support the genocide of people in Indonesia, PNG or East Timor, when it serves our economical interests. So when we point one finger at China, there are always 4 fingers pointing back at us(and yes, I know the thumb is technically not a finger, blah blah, but you get the point)

                          What China does differently though is it tightly controls foreign investments and meddling in their politics and economy, something Australia could learn a thing or two from. Why do you think Facebook is banned over there?

                          But yes, good point on Tiananmen Square. Everyone knows the video where the fleet of Chinese tanks mercilessly crushed that unarmed man… oh, hang on…
                          You know, you don’t bring in tanks to subdue crowd. That’s what guns and rifles are used for.

                          And COVID, come on now. We can talk a little bit about the mismanagement in the handling of the pandemic in the west and the fact that all along the way, in most places, business was put ahead of public safety. Just look at who received the biggest bailouts and made (and continues to make) subsequently record breaking profits…

                          Again, I’m not a China apologist, but our western perspective is wildly skewed and we need to take the common narrative with a spoonful of salt.

                        • kaoz on 04/04/2023 - 08:32

                          @Maxxjet: Btw, regarding your point on Tiannanmen Square, I’d recommend this video:

                          https://youtu.be/sqPI8xlnrwg

            • RefusdClassification on 30/03/2023 - 12:43
              +8

              @Papa Huggies: Top quintile in Australia, average wealth $3.27 million.
              Bottom quintile: $33,000

              We need a government to redistribute the wealth.

              A few days ago, I read about the 124th wealthiest Australian. He own 11 yachts, including one worth $100 million. Start taxing the rich. Unfortunately the ALP/Greens/Libs (the Uniparty) only care about the top end of town.

              • juki on 30/03/2023 - 13:33
                +2

                @RefusdClassification: the french excuse to that is that the rich will flee the country, not invest and you will be worse off

              • Drakesy on 30/03/2023 - 14:48
                +2

                @RefusdClassification: *Libs only care about the top end of town.

                The Greens and ALP are currently trying to undo all the tax bias put in place in the past decade by the liberals.
                This only widened the wealth divide/chasm.

                But for the first time in a while they've managed to disenfranchise entire generations as their policies favoured the wealthy boomers and pensioners. I think the liberals will be on the periphery for a good decade whilst they do some soul searching.

                Can't favour one generation and destroy the wealth of others without some form of pushback.

                • heal on 30/03/2023 - 20:25
                  -2

                  @Drakesy:

                  The Greens and ALP are currently trying to undo all the tax bias put in place in the past decade by the liberals.

                  Can you please link to all their attempts to do this in the past 7 months since they have been in parliament. I could only find one piece of legislation in this period that mentions tax, and that is about bilatiral tax agreements between Australia and Iceland. It seems that the bias you mention is against the Liberals because of your belief that Labor and the Greens will undo the tax bias.

                  Once upon a time, wealthy companies and people were always supportive of the Liberals, howver as they have become more progressive, I've seen the support move to the left, towards Labor, Teal and the Greens. I don't think Labor will bite the hand that feeds it. Happy to be proven wrong and see the very wealthy individuals and companies pay more tax. Look at Coles and Woolies for example, grocery prices are through the roof and they're currently experiencing record profits.

                  • p1 ama on 30/03/2023 - 22:36
                    +5

                    @heal:

                    Once upon a time, wealthy companies and people were always supportive of the Liberals, howver as they have become more progressive, I've seen the support move to the left, towards Labor, Teal and the Greens.

                    Wrong - Labor has moved significantly towards the right. Whitlam was the last of the traditional left-wing progressive ALP prime ministers, Hawke and Keating were "third way" progressives, similar to Bill Clinton or Tony Blair - generally socially progressive, but with more business-friendly, free market policies. Rudd and Gillard were simply continuations of that shift. Albo basically ran a small target campaign that proposed no real policies, and has governed like a caretaker with no policy convictions.

                    The LNP has actually significantly shifted towards the right as well - Abbott, ScoMo, and now Dutton are all significantly further to the right vs. Howard, who was already further to the right than Fraser (even back then, Abbott was known to be the most conservative minister under the Howard government). All of the more small-i liberal ministers from the Howard era have all either been pushed out or retired.

                    I don't think Labor will bite the hand that feeds it.

                    They tried to do this at the previous to last election, but voters were spooked.

                    • heal on 30/03/2023 - 23:39
                      +2

                      @p1 ama:

                      Wrong - Labor has moved significantly towards the right.

                      I initially thought you were having a laugh. It's both unfortunate and scary you actually believe that.

                      • p1 ama on 31/03/2023 - 01:20
                        +1

                        @heal:

                        It's both unfortunate and scary you actually believe that.

                        Your statement is in and of itself illogical.

                        You say "I don't think Labor will bite the hand that feeds it. Happy to be proven wrong and see the very wealthy individuals and companies pay more tax.", which basically implies that the ALP is too conservative, so how can you turn around and say that the LNP has moved left? What are you talking about?

                        Or are you another one of those conservative dimwits who likes to posture as being for the little guy?

                      • R4 on 31/03/2023 - 20:18
                        -3

                        @heal: Yep. The ALP and the LNP have moved decisively to the left. You see this all over the world now though - in the US with Biden and the current UK government being conservative in name only.

                        Albanese and Chalmers are genuinely hard-left operators - fortunately, they can't go too far down the hateful socialist route as they have political realities to deal with and the Australian people don't do hard-left.

                        • kaoz on 31/03/2023 - 20:51
                          +2

                          @R4: Lol! You had me there for a second…

                          • R4 on 01/04/2023 - 12:53

                            @kaoz: Nah! Two seconds at least..

                  • Drakesy on 31/03/2023 - 08:52
                    -1

                    @heal: 1 decade of biased policies will never be undone in 7 months.

                    And they've actively opposed the unfair pensioner franking credit refund policy that the liberals wanted to keep

                    They went to the polls opposing negative gearing

                    • heal on 31/03/2023 - 23:29
                      +1

                      @Drakesy: Still waiting on info on how Labor and the Greens are undoing the LNP tax bias…..

              • plasmog on 30/03/2023 - 21:17
                +1

                @RefusdClassification: I have been looking for this stat, can you share the link?

                Tax on wealth would be way better than what we have, which seems to be to tax the working poor while those with 6 houses coast by on negative gearing & CGT exemption.

                • xavster on 31/03/2023 - 21:25
                  +1

                  @plasmog: For clarification:

                  CGT Exemption only applies to your main residence. i.e. the place you live in.

                  50% CGT discount applies to investment assets that you own for over 12 months. i.e. investment properties.

                • thewiseone on 01/04/2023 - 12:05

                  @haru: I think the problem is often misconstrued.
                  Taxing the ultra-wealthy should be the target not the 'rich'. We need to properly tax the Gina's and Twiggy's worth billions not the 'rich' medical professionals earning 1-2m per year.

                  It has been abundantly clear that the wealth in the top 1% has been becoming more and more concentrated. Just look at what happened to Gina Rinehart's wealth over covid while others have been wiped out.

              • LanceVance on 05/04/2023 - 21:43

                @RefusdClassification: Government redistribution merely picks winners and losers, and further increases the wealth gap. It is like getting a blood transfusion from one arm to the other and spilling half the blood on the floor in the process. There can never be enough government, there can never be enough 'free' stuff, but there is only so much of other people's money.

          • Drakesy on 30/03/2023 - 11:24
            +8

            @kaoz: Dont need to look far to see how this results in the downfall of a country's economy. Greece's default some decade ago was largely due to an overweight pension system which the older generation refused to give up even if it was sending them broke.

            Now the country is cooked, all the young people left because of the shambles and theres a significant brain drain going on.

            • kaoz on 31/03/2023 - 19:16
              -1

              @Drakesy: Wow, so it was the old folks on their pensions, not an unfair IMF debt trap or predatory credit unions that caused the collapse… you realise that this is quite a stretch?

            • p3nf0ld on 31/03/2023 - 22:26
              +3

              @Drakesy: Yep Greece had generated so little GDP off the back of early retirement ages, short working weeks, high levels of healthcare that they had become reliant on Germany writing them loans they were never going to pay back. When German workers realized they were working longer hours, higher retirement ages & lower levels of healthcare compared to their Greece colleagues they decided that enough was enough.

          • Dsiee on 30/03/2023 - 18:19
            +2

            @kaoz: No. However, we need to have a strong enough economy to have the resources to fix those problems. Look at the correlation between homelessness, median income and wealth equality. We need strong of the later to minimise the former. Obviously we can do multiple things at once and should actively be working on both.

          • FlyingMiffy on 30/03/2023 - 22:28
            +1

            @kaoz: yawn and this is how you get a lazy population who prefer to get handouts. There is circumstance sure, but what you do in your circumstance is always a choice. What you are promoting is charity for those that have made their own choices.

            • kaoz on 31/03/2023 - 19:55
              -2

              @FlyingMiffy: What I’m trying to promote is better conditions for everyone, regardless of their circumstances or how much they’re able to save throughout their careers. It’s appalling to me how little compassion a lot of people on this forum have for their fellow countrymen. A lot of people seem to be only out for themselves.

              • FlyingMiffy on 31/03/2023 - 20:05

                @kaoz: Why not donate your earnings to other people! Save everybody!!!! Delusional just like the climate skeptics.

              • LanceVance on 05/04/2023 - 21:45

                @kaoz: I think everyone is a supporter of equality of opportunity, its when you start talking about equality of outcome that you lose people. The amount of individual effort and taking laziness into account never seems to enter the topic when we're talking about redistribution and 'fair share'.

                • kaoz on 07/04/2023 - 13:09

                  @LanceVance: Thank you for your input.
                  It’s true that we can never completely get rid of “laziness” and there will always be people who are driven more than others.
                  I like to think, however, that in the current system people who put in a lot of effort aren’t fairly compensated either. Think of all the people doing hard manual labour and long hours. Assuming equal wages as, say a white collar worker, they still have to work just as long to reach the point where they can afford to either retire or go on the state pension. That’s just not a fair system in my opinion.
                  Not to mention the disparity in effort and remuneration between a mining ceo and one of the cleaning or building crews at the bottom of the wage tier.
                  A maximum wage could address this, but I know exactly how popular this is going to be with the law makers and a lot of the public, despite the fact that the latter would greatly benefit from such a proposal through lower product prices and higher wages.

        • Extreme on 01/04/2023 - 06:39

          Considering Australia went through a recession in 2020, I suspect that most people commenting here would have “lived through a recession”…..

        • rumblytangara on 30/03/2023 - 09:57
          +19

          You can say this with a straight face after the past five years, even just looking at Australia?

          • lew380 on 30/03/2023 - 10:39
            -8

            @rumblytangara: Yes, bush fires are natural phenomena that effect us more due to mismanagement of burning off zones and the more people that move into heavily forested areas(me) the more people that will take the risk of fire damage.

            Floods will always occured while we build land developments in swamps and don't account for excessive drainage during large weather events.

            Or you can believe that the existence of rain and fire is proof that the world is going to blow up soon unless we give politicians and the elites more money and submit to communism.

            • SpainKing on 30/03/2023 - 12:32
              +1

              @lew380: The government/elites get enough money to fix these problems but it's not in their financial interest to do so so they don't

              The existence of rain and fire is a good thing. It's when they're engulfing your house on a regular basis that people start to get a bit upset

              If the world were on fire/completely flooded I'd argue it would be a similar outcome to being blown up. I don't know why they're your preferred methods to die but I'd rather have my atoms blown to bits than: slowly treading water until my body gives out, burning to death, or starving from a famine caused by an inhospitable climate

              Communism has nothing to do with it, you just seem to want to use it as a scapegoat for why people shouldn't care about the future of their planet. I'm not a communist, but I'm also not willfully ignorant at the problems posed by our excessive energy consumption

                • SpainKing on 31/03/2023 - 12:26
                  +2

                  @lew380: Can you please source your claims it's pseudoscience? It feels like you'd be denying the hole in the ozone layer when CFCs were being heavily used

                  Batteries and solar panels are not the most toxic forms of acquiring energy? If anything nuclear forms much more dangerous waste. Fossil fuels are finite, make the air quality worse and contribute to the greenhouse gas effect (which we disagree on)

                  Who are these heavily corrupt individuals? I'm sick of their names being kept a secret. What we experience here in Australia is nowhere close to communism

                  Yes there are more effective ways of helping the third world than sending corporations over to exploit their local labour force. I don't see how you draw a connection with raising the retirement age in Australia and absorbing the third world's problems

                  • buckster on 01/04/2023 - 07:27

                    @SpainKing: Don't worry, you can bet that these heavily corrupt individuals will be something like:

                    Bill Gates
                    George Soros
                    & Anyone of great wealth and good intentions for the world

                    Lew380 has been on the koolaid way too long

                  • lew380 on 01/04/2023 - 17:23
                    -1

                    @SpainKing: The models are worthless, the climate is far more complex than scientists can currently understand. The margin of error on the measurements to derive the warming exceeds the warming itself, if you have any grasp of science, then the global warming phenomena is realistically a mathematical error. It also doesn't account for the facts that grapes used to be grown in England and North Africa used to be the bread basket of the Roman Empire, these extreme fluctuations in temperature and climate are ignored by modern science as it messes up their formulas. Science isn't as settled as some talking heads like to say it is.

                    • SpainKing on 02/04/2023 - 02:03
                      +1

                      @lew380: I appreciate you sharing your views, though we disagree

                      What do you think the climate scientists are leaving out of their predictive models?

                      Personally I'd find it hard to come to the conclusion that so many scientists wold agree with a rounding error and rally behind it. I know some disagree but they're in the minority

                      How do the grape growing statistics and North Africa invalidate scientific findings? It sounds like an interesting line of reasoning

                • SBOB on 31/03/2023 - 12:28
                  +2

                  @lew380:

                  the most toxic means of acquiring energy.

                  you said that with a straight face?
                  laughable

                  They dont grow on trees, but to claim that its 'the most toxic' of the potentially current range or energy sources is just idiotic

                  • lew380 on 01/04/2023 - 17:15
                    -1

                    @SBOB: Batteries and solar panels take a lot of resources to create, sure you don't see the waste as a consumer but it's already been dumped into the atmosphere, or do you believe that if you can't see it, it doesn't exist? Also we can't recycle solar panels and batteries, we just dump them in landfill, better off using coal at this point, far cleaner. It's a pipe dream, they have real world applications like underground mining, power in remote locations etc but to suggest that it will end our energy problems is just ignorant at best.

                    • gmatht on 02/04/2023 - 15:27
                      +2

                      @lew380: Actually, batteries can be recycled. Don't throw them out. Take them to your local recycling centre. https://www.cleanup.org.au/batteries

                      • lew380 on 03/04/2023 - 08:11
                        -1

                        @gmatht: No they aren't, we ship them to China, who have little to no hazardous waste disposal laws, and they mark them off as "recycled", just like everything going into your recycling bin. They can be recycled, but the costs are prohibitive. Like I said, maybe a cost effective solution will be found, but we are waiting as far as I am aware.

            • LanceVance on 05/04/2023 - 21:46

              @lew380: The buy in to the 'climate catastrophe' is strong on OZB

              • lew380 on 05/04/2023 - 23:04
                +1

                @LanceVance: Propaganda works all to well. Can't blame them, it's all they know.

      • aboogee on 30/03/2023 - 11:55
        +3

        Sorry but I have to say that the belief that economy is not our main concern is just wrong.

        Some one is actually paying for it. It so happen to not be you / us.

        Assets / entitlements are not created out of thin air and certainly not free. When a group on people is thinking how to live comfortably without working for it, there will be another group of people (whether present of future) thinking why they have to work so hard to just make ends meet.

      • drfuzzy on 31/03/2023 - 09:19
        +5

        TLDR: I want free nice things now and don't care if future generations cop the bill

      • the wiz on 01/04/2023 - 16:13
        +2

        the well-being of the population that should be the main priority

        If the economy is trashed, how do you plan on paying for this?

        There's no magic pudding. You can't Robin Hood an economy to prosperity. Eventually you kill the motivation for effort and investment and run out of other people's money.

        The economy gets taken for granted by too many. It isn't indestructible.

    • mattyman on 31/03/2023 - 14:41

      "People are living till an older age"

      I'm not sure that is going to turn out to be true. COVID and the long term damage it does, will likely lower that. It's going to be interesting to see if it is affected.

    • Toffees on 01/04/2023 - 03:14
      +1

      I think technology will soften the burden on younger generations. At this rate AI and robotics should enable people to live in abundance in the not too distant future, increasing the standard of living of the average person and lowering the need for an older workforce.

      • kaoz on 01/04/2023 - 08:42
        +1

        I wish this was true. Under capitalism, though, you just increase your personal productivity even more whilst wages remain fairly stagnant, ie don’t rise proportionally to your increased productivity.

  • AustriaBargain on 29/03/2023 - 19:40
    +21

    I'm probably not going to live beyond 65 anyway. I can feel it in my bones.

    • carlJack on 29/03/2023 - 19:54
      +5

      You sure not your liver?

    • kaoz on 29/03/2023 - 20:09
      +8

      Even more reason to be out on the streets for a lower pension age…

      • baldur on 30/03/2023 - 12:56

        Edit: nevermind, misread it.

    • altomic on 29/03/2023 - 20:26
      +1

      Life hack

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 30/03/2023 - 04:51

      Osteosarcoma?

    • umoddbro on 31/03/2023 - 04:54
      +2

      Bloody oath, I'm 30 and my body feels like shit…. Can't get any good sleep and body aches all around.. Not sure how I'm gonna do this for another 30+ years..

      • iSamurai on 01/04/2023 - 01:33
        +2

        when i was in my 20s, i had friends in their 30s who told me to look after your body (i'm now 32). i thought i was invincible at that time haha :P the formula is simple if you put in some effort.

        • good quality sleep
        • exercise, at least 1/2 hour moderate to intense
        • eat healthily
        • try not to stress
  • Hjshakenwin on 29/03/2023 - 19:49
    +11

    Most people I know simply think it is an issue to them too far down the road and can't be bothered. Too me I think the balance would be implementing 4 day work week (80% working hours same pay) and pushing back retirement age by a few years.

  • chrisn26 on 29/03/2023 - 19:57
    +64

    I think this has to do with cultural differences. The French have a rich history where their society has actual struggles with freedom (French revolution for example). Here in Australia we don't have the same struggles with achieving our freedoms. I would go as far as say that on the most part, as a people, we kind of inherited our freedom. When something is not earnt, it tends to be taken for granted.

    • kaoz on 29/03/2023 - 20:18
      +7

      Not to be offensive, but there are certain populations in Australia who fought hard to retain their freedoms but were horribly squashed by the British rule.
      But I get your point about unearned things taken for granted. What would it take tho for people to get properly upset?

      • cookie2 on 29/03/2023 - 20:47
        +3

        Something taken from them now, impacting them now AND at the same time impacting enough other people for it to not be frowned on to go out and protest. And make it convenient, I don't want to miss work for it. Also a belief that there may be a change from the effort put in. If i thought I had a chance to help make the positive change then I'd try (within reason) but I don't.

        • kaoz on 29/03/2023 - 20:55
          +2

          seeing that the unions in France paid a large role in organising and instigating strikes, walk-outs and protests, are we lacking enough union memberships in Australia?

          I mean, yes, people are afraid to miss work for a protest, but that could be mitigated by being organised in a union where there is a collective strike and strength in numbers. Not to mention the other benefits of being in an organised union…

          • Eeples on 30/03/2023 - 12:36
            +1

            @kaoz: You might need to get some facts about unionisation in France.

            Ie. It isn’t that high. (around 10%).

            https://www.statista.com/statistics/1358561/unionization-rat…

            • kaoz on 31/03/2023 - 09:41

              @Eeples: I didn’t say everyone in France is in a union, but that they played a large role in the protests. They are well organised and cooperate across the board, thus being very effective at what they’re doing. Imagine what they could achieve with a higher membership rate.

          • gfjh567gh3 on 26/04/2023 - 16:04
            +1

            @kaoz: You're right about the union aspect in France, as I heard on No Agenda Podcast. Specifically, they're activist Marxist side of the union.

            However, regarding Australia - the trades were one of the first groups to be put under vaccine mandates. They protested and sought redress through the union. What did the union bosses do? They literally brought in bikies to protect union officials and assault due paying tradesmen.

      • greatlamp on 30/03/2023 - 10:07
        +8

        The first step is having a collective identity. In a country were 60%+ were born overseas, or their parents were born overseas, there isn't an Australian identity at the same rate as there is in many other nations.

        It also doesn't help that even the smallest efforts to create a national identity are quickly labelled as fascism by a media that serves the wealthy elite who would rather that government's only role is to collect taxes and give it to them. As a result any support for nationalism from the left doesn't exist, our unions are either too small to have any impact or are useless and corrupt, and everyone just worries about their own personal wealth while they watch their neighbors sink into poverty.

        • bio on 30/03/2023 - 11:30
          +3

          What does retirement age have anything to do with national identity? I was born overseas, but I would definitely support anything that would benefit Australian people, even if there is nothing in it for me.

          • greatlamp on 30/03/2023 - 14:34
            +3

            @bio: The thread is also about protests.

            I'm sure most Australians will support things to help others, and I'm including immigrants in that. I don't think they will feel so strongly as to protest about it, Australians do not have much empathy for welfare recipients

        • Stromae on 30/03/2023 - 17:03
          +8

          I agree with your comment about the french having a collective identity. They certainly do. However just like us they have a large migrant population.

          Australia does not have a collective identity and it is more due to mindset rather than where people are born.

          The french firmly believe in equality. They do not think it is fair that the garbage bin collector or bricklayer should work till 64 like the office worker due to the fact that people doing physical work have a harder career and it is fair that they retire earlier.

          The unions in France are very organised, in close contact and lend their support to each other. There are even unions for pensioners. So when Macron tries to screw them, you quickly see the unions shut down the trains, schools and power grid.

          The French's ease to take to the streets when they are not happy with their government is something to be admired.

        • gfjh567gh3 on 26/04/2023 - 16:06

          Absolutely. They are demonising SAS soldiers and telling us that the far right is the largest terror threat. At some point, people realise what is shown in the media doesn't match with what they see in real life.
          Our ancestors went from a penal colony to the greatest country in the world in 200 years. This should be celebrated and the machinations understand. Instead, children learn about indigenous affairs.
          We also don't have a bill of rights, nor do we have a revolutionary history. We also gave up most of our weapons rather easily, despite zero effect on the homicide trend
          Meanwhile, apparently both sides of politics decided we were going to do "big Australia" and our countrymen and neighbours now look, sound, and act a lot less like us.

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 30/03/2023 - 05:05

      Re:

      'I think this has to do with cultural differences.'

      I agree with that, but I would go on to appraise the situation further, thus:

      "The frogs are typically a bunch of whingeing girls' blouses, who historically have often shied away from banding with their supposed allies in times of conflict, yet somewhat ironically also evidently have a penchant for internal/civil conflict. Conversely, (champion) Aussies will always step up to defend a mate, and are generally smart enough not to shit in their own swimming pool."

      • Stromae on 30/03/2023 - 17:07
        +1

        By defending a "mate" you mean defending the British empire?

    • Bidet Mate on 30/03/2023 - 07:37
      +1

      You can actually see this in legislation too.
      Eg getting laws like seatbelts or even the recent lockdowns through gov is relatively quick in Australia, whereas countries like the USA, where fear of oppression is built into their constitution, have a lot of work to do to satisfy the constraints.

      • stjep on 30/03/2023 - 10:30
        +5

        Eg getting laws like seatbelts or even the recent lockdowns through gov is relatively quick in Australia, whereas countries like the USA, where fear of oppression is built into their constitution, have a lot of work to do to satisfy the constraints.

        Nah, the US is the way it is because there is no society to speak of, so anything that resembles one is treated with contempt and skepticism. Things that resemble social safety nets are actually not that. Obamacare was a gift to private insurance, not a way to help people (being required to pay thousands for insurance that you can't use is not Medicare For All, for example).

        If the USA was as truly afraid of oppression then they would have rejected the Patriot Act, they would have burnt DC to the ground over PRISMA and the other domestic spying mechanisms, and there would be riots right now over TikTok bill being used to usher in criminal sanctions for using a VPN.

        The American idea of freedom is so incredibly narrow and myopic it is surprising that anyone actually still takes that seriously.

      • GnarlyKnuckles on 30/03/2023 - 18:49
        -1

        Good point 900.

        Gun laws spring to mind. Howard's buy-backs were almost universally supported here, and were thus highly successful; whereas in the US the 'gun lobby' seems to run the show (despite being a minority group!), and consequently that joint still has a school shooting every moth etc.

        • cheng2008 on 31/03/2023 - 03:18
          +1

          Interestingly their argument seems to be that they need more guns, since more people with guns and armour can stop the shooters more easily.

    • reactor-au on 30/03/2023 - 09:43
      +2

      I think fact that most of our population is imported has a lot to do with cultural differences. Feel a bit odd protesting pension when you just got here.

      • buckster on 01/04/2023 - 07:31
        -1

        Technically everyone who isn't indigenous is imported…

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