Does your company force you to take leave at the end of the year? If so, how do you feel about it?
Do You Have to Take End of Year Leave?
Ghost47 on 22/12/2022 - 15:19
Last edited 22/12/2022 - 17:21 by 1 other user
Last edited 22/12/2022 - 17:21 by 1 other user
Poll Options
- 67I love it
- 25I like it
- 365Meh, it’s ok, I don’t mind
- 111I don’t like it
- 138I hate it
Comments
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- 2
HR suck spotted
A swing and a miss.
Change jobs?
Probably applies to 90% of jobs, except hospitality and retail
So may not be an option.
What about public sector workers? Police, emergency services, courts, hospital and other health care workers etc…
I work in public transport and we run a normal timetable whether its a public holiday or not. Leave applications open twelve months in advance and if you had christmas off last year you aren't getting it again for a couple of years at least.
It's the only time of the year when I can take a break and know that work isn't building up in the background and also unlikely to get work calls, because noone else is working!
Yeah this. If everyone is taking a couple of weeks, you can come back after a solid break without a massive backlog. There’s no emails that you’re tempted to respond to, an external companies/partners are mostly on leave also.
It’s only 7 working days, so in theory you still have nearly 3 weeks to use in the future for a bigger holiday!
….and the people that do email or try to call don't expect a response. Such a good time to ease the mind!
Most companies make their staff take 2 weeks off, not just 1. 1 is OK as it covers Christmas and New year's, but 2 is cutting into your 4 weeks of annual leave, not ideal.
What are you basing this "most" statistic off?
The most any company has made me take off are the days between xmas and new years - which is usually only 3-4 days of annual leave and about 10 consecutive days off.
@Harold Halfprice: I work in consulting so have an idea based on our corporate and government clients' shutdown periods
For corporates 7 days annual leave is pretty common e.g. return 9th Jan rather than 3rd (still some do less some do more)
I feel like Victorian government clients tend to have shorter shutdowns but I only have one sample
@R-Man: Interesting, I guess I've been lucky then.
Not gonna lie, I'd be a bit annoyed if I had to take a full 7 days - cause I like to save up for overseas holidays.
The 3 days in between I don't mind though as it a pretty efficient use of 3 days leave.
@Harold Halfprice: Absolutely agree. Some firms are encroaching even further up to 10 days forced annual leave under the guise of excess leave banked up from covid and staff "should really take a long break"
(yes nothing to do with reducing liability of course)
Have a sook
Everywhere I've ever worked has been closure with exceptions - show a good reason to come to work and you can. Always ends up that 90% of people take the time off, the people who stay tend to get a tonne of work done and keep the company ticking over.
the people who stay tend to get a tonne of work done
I lol'ed.
It’s actually a fantastic time to work because there’s no one there to hassle/interrupt you.
Everywhere I've worked the employees who essentially gather dust aren't allowed to skip leave.
It's also made clear that if you want to work that period, it's because you have no interruptions, a clear set of work and that work better bloody well be done. Taking the piss out of your employer by not taking the time off then doing nothing is a pretty good way to make sure your career won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Pretty common in Australia.
If the business is actually closed then of course it's logical, although depending on the length of time i feel there should be a sweetener.
For example, i heard of a company that imposes three weeks compulsory AL over Xmas, that is extreme and not fair. At the very least the three days of Xmas week should not be included and just provided as an entitlement.Yep my old one used to. I would always take it as unpaid so it wouldn’t affect my AL balance and so I could take AL when I actually wanted to. Some people at my work would also “buy” those extra days of leave each year and they’d use that so they’d still get paid in those two weeks.
What would be the difference between doing that and just taking unpaid leave when you wanted to take AL? Not trying to be smart, just genuinely interested
spread the cost out over the whole year
That's what buying leave does, not just taking unpaid leave.
@Domingo: Oh right. Sorry, I miss-read your comment. It can be hard to get your employer to agree to unpaid AL. Maybe at some workplaces it is easier to get AL over Christmas when the place is shut down?
@djsweet: another thing sometimes plays into it with 'purchased' leave vs unpaid leave. some employers allow you to still accrue leave, long service, super at your regular rate when you purchase leave, whereas if you take unpaid leave they remove your accruals during that time
My workplace was always really shit about taking unpaid at any other time. If you didn’t have the balance, they wouldn’t really allow it.
But over Xmas they seemed to care a bit less if you did it, especially if you had leave booked already. Basically I’d always make sure I had future leave locked in, and then I wouldn’t have enough left to take paid over Xmas.
But if I did the Xmas leave first and my AL time was empty, they’d just not approve my AL time.
Ah makes sense.
One of the strategies is to book on future leave so you don't have leave over Christmas and then work through/take unpaid as you wish. Then back out the future leave and voila
@Domingo: Yeah I did this a few times. Even if I wasn’t sure. I’d essentially book out my balance for like April. Have no leave at Xmas and take unpaid, then cancel my April leave and use it when I actually needed it.
Stupid system but it worked to my advantage
Also gotta be careful with how your company approaches taking unpaid leave across public holidays. I started a job a few years ago in October but wanted to take time off across Christmas. Booked the few days at the start with my AL balance and used unpaid for the rest - which happened to span across the public holidays (Christmas, Boxing Day, NYE) and lost the pay from them. Tried to fight it and was told 'too bad, that's the rules'.
If I'd known, I would have bridge the public holidays with my AL and used unpaid for the rest…
An employee can be directed to take annual leave during a shut down if their award or registered agreement allows it.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/annual-leave/directing-an-…
So check your agreement if unhappy. I personally feel that if a business wants to stop activities, the employees shouldn’t have to fund it with their annual leave but that’s me
, the employees shouldn’t have to fund it with their annual leave but that’s me
True, they can take leave without pay instead…
The employee is still subsidising the business by not being paid. Works out to the same. They either lose AL now (thereby cannot take time off later or take unpaid leave later) or lose income now by taking unpaid leave.
If a business cannot function during the new year break, then the employee shouldn’t have to fund the business in that period.
The employee is still subsidising the business by not being paid.
No they aren't.
@jv: If an employee takes AL, business reduces liability. If employee takes unpaid leave, business saves on payroll. They benefit both ways. Employee loses both ways, especially those who are willing to work during the break but aren’t allowed to because the business is shut. Why should the employee lose income for the business’s decision?
PS: I didn’t neg.
If employee takes unpaid leave, business saves on payroll.
No they don't.
If you don't work, you don't get paid. It's pretty simple.
especially those who are willing to work during the break but aren’t allowed to because the business is shut
They are not providing their services and not getting paid for something they didn't do. They are not losing.
Why should the employee lose income for the business’s decision?
They are not losing income, because they are not working.
They are not losing income, because they are not working
They are not working due to the business’s unilateral decision to stop trading. It’s an imbalance in power. If an employee is losing money due to a decision they had no say in, it’s a loss of income, either as a loss in AL or as unpaid leave.
I have worked at a university which closed down during the Christmas break for 5-7 working days. No employee was made to use their AL or request unpaid leave. This is the right way.
They are not working due to the business’s unilateral decision to stop trading.
So ?
I think this response of yours illustrates that we are looking at this problem from the opposite sides. My understanding is that you're putting the rights and needs of the business owners ahead of the workers and I'm doing the opposite. Don't think we're going to agree on anything here.
My understanding is that you're putting the rights and needs of the business owners ahead of the workers and I'm doing the opposite.
No, just common sense.
You work, you get paid.
You don't work, you don't get paid.
@soan papdi: For most businesses an employee taking unpaid leave isn't a benefit, it's lost productivity which is lost profits. It also may mean that during the year when the employee then chooses to take their paid AL that the business needs to pay extra wages in the form of other staff doing overtime etc to cover that employee's time off.
Personally I feel though any employee should be entitled to take unpaid leave during a forced shutdown but just pointing out that unpaid leave isn't a benefit to most businesses.For most businesses an employee taking unpaid leave isn't a benefit, it's lost productivity which is lost profits.
I would agree with you for the rest of the year but for the purposes of this discussion (Christmas-NY period), we can say that the business has already calculated that it's not profitable to stay open during the Christmas break. So an employee taking unpaid leave is not lost productivity. On the contrary, the business is saving on wages (no salary or AL getting used).
This whole yearly behaviour is hard for me to accept because during my entire career so far (one aussie uni and in the australian branches of several US companies), not once have I had to take AL or unpaid leave during the break. Maybe I've just been very lucky. I don't have anything more to offer in this discussion, so this will be my last post. Thanks to yourself and jv, good discussion.
@soan papdi: As someone who frequently works Christmas Day, I say that forced leave would be a blessing.
Businesses aren’t doing anything illegal. They have a right to shut down over Christmas.
Just like employees have the right to choose who they work for.
If you don’t like being forced to take leave, then maybe consider changing employers? Find an employer who doesn’t shut down over Christmas. Or change industries that you work in.
we can say that the business has already calculated that it's not profitable to stay open during the Christmas break. So an employee taking unpaid leave is not lost productivity. On the contrary, the business is saving on wages (no salary or AL getting used).
I see where you're coming from. But I think the reason it's not beneficial like you suggest that the business saves on wages is that the business has already factored the shutdown well ahead in their forecasts to calculate their margins and etc so that they can payout the entitlements over that period (with no or reduced revenue). Unless the business has serious cashflow issues I just don't see show it's beneficial as all they are doing is shifting the AL liability to another time, a time when they most likely are more in need of that workers productivity.
I've got to say you are very fortunate to work for businesses that (by the sounds of it) give you 5-6 weeks annual leave a year of which 1-2 weeks of that is mandated over the Christmas/NY period, that's the dream for most workers right there.
As others have said yeah it can be a bit of a negative to take forced leave but it sure is nice to take guilt free time off that doesn't leave a tonne of work piled up when you get back. Thanks for the discussion too.
Had to talk to fairwork recently about a couple of things related to leave, found out under my award I can actually refuse to take annual leave over the shutdown and work will have to pay me out all the days. I didn't pull that card mostly because I didn't want the hassle in the new year from the directors.
In a way it's a good thing, forces people to take some time at home with their kids or just away from work.
I'm now at a gov organisation and for the first time in my career i don't have a shutdown period and am not sure how i feel about it.
There's a few people in the team with family who have to be at work to cover for it.
I'm forced to take the annual leave - it's nice to have a break but also effectively only having 17 days of voluntary leave slightly bothers me.
My partner's company lets the employees have the week off without taking leave at all.
Encouraged but not forced.
Work does tend to slow down during that time but as a lot of people will be away it's pressure on the people who stay back to cover things.
Yes. Have to save eight days of annual leave if I want to be paid the same as the other times as paid, or go unpaid (which I had to do first two years I started at the company)
I think it sucks personally, leave should be for when you want not the company, but think 1 week is ok.
Sort of makes going to Europe for 4 weeks in July impossible if that was your plans.one place tried to force 2 weeks, it was meant with grumbles, then 3 weeks and loads quit so they u-turned
yeah because we have to pander to the stupid parents in the company.
Were your parents unemployed?
I can’t imagine any business would close if the economics meant staying open was more profitable. I don’t think family status has any bearing.Maybe you could consider changing employers or industries and find a job with a business that doesn’t shut down over Christmas if it bothers you that much…
Many companies with forced leave will give a couple of extra days to cover the year end period.
My ex BIL, a teacher, used to drive me crazy every year asking about me getting time off over Christmas. Every year, I would respond that I worked in a bank and we didn't have any shut down periods.
Then I met my future husband, who worked for a different bank, and worked in the ATM area and had to actually work on Christmas Day, making sure the ATMs were filled and serviced. As he/we didn't have kids, he always offered to work then so the dads (it was an all male group) could have time with their kids.
Ex BIL would still ask every year if we were having time off and would be horrified that we didn't… he was an idiot. Still is.
Sounds like ARMAGUARD
I have the option to take it as leave without pay or annual leave.
Yep, 3 days worth to cover business days between Xmas and the first business day in Jan 2023 (which is Jan 3). Our shut down is from today though and we have been gifted tomorrow as a freebie AL day that doesn't come out of our balances.
I'm a bit cynical about it tbh. It kind of feels like management band-aiding criticism about work loads and being all, "We DO look after you, see we gave you one day of AL you can't complain about burn out". I guess I can't argue with a free day though, better than nothing.
I am so glad my working year is over….
They only let crap workers take annual leave where I am. If you're valuable, you only get the 2 weeks everyone gets.
Yes, typically. But I've accrued so much TOIL I haven't had to take annual leave for two years, including some actual holiday leave.
We also get four whole-of-company days off during the year that isn't part of AL.
We get the stand down period in addition to annual leave - no raiding your annual leave allocation. Seems the only fair way to do it.
Is it fair to others who don’t get a shut down period?
The fact is, it’s part of the job. Shut downs are legal.
If you don’t like being forced to take leave, then you could always consider changing employers, to someone who doesn’t shut down….
My work shuts for 2.5 weeks this year, I don’t mind for myself because I have children to look after, but for others that want to work (or new people that have joined recently) it sucks to either take unwanted leave or go into leave debt.
Where I work we don't close for the Christmas - New Year break but as most of the related industries are closed, we only have a skeleton staff and usually it's dead quiet. I've always worked it, so that those with kids could have the days. Christmas 2020 there were only two of us out of a team of 13 that worked and we were absolutely slammed - big change from the usually cruisy few days.
This year our skeleton staff has been reduced to only a few bones and I actually have the time off. Comes out of annual leave, but still nice to have the holiday season off work for a change.My work enforces this every year … "skeleton crew".
Every year it is the same from upper management - must do this/etc - to try and save money, employees not needed/etc.
Even to the point of de-hiring equipment (just for the 1 week) to save afew $$$.Then …after the fact first week of JAN - upper management ALWAYS come back and hound us …
"why weren't things done properly?"
"why did these delays happen?"
"why was your dept late with these cut-offs?"
"why did so many stuffups happen during this 1 week period?"Then always the last question …
"why did we have so many ppl off in the first place?"I'm on holidays from Friday PM … so this year I can gladly say …
"not my problem - deal with it" :) :) :)In healthcare I have to book leave months in advance. I had to book 3 weeks of leave a year in advance.
Im in healthcare. We have a you can only take 2 weeks annual leave rule at a time so as more people can take leave over this popular period.
Unpaid leave is not an entitlement. Employer doesnt have to allow. There are staff who have excess leave so we use this time of year to reduce leave as leave is seen as a liability.
You cant take unpaid leave if you actually have leave (esp lots) you must use annual leave first.
I'm a Government contractor yes forced to close over Xmas and I don't get paid since in not at work, it sucks but its also nice to have time off to visit family and friends and unwind
We've just got christmas day off. Im taking it LWOP, annual leave is for when i go on holidays or want time off. Not when im forced too.
Yes, 2 weeks. It makes complete sense to me from a business point of view. I work in a massive financial firm, and I’ve seen firsthand that once a critical mass of partners and directors take time off at the same time, nothing moves in the business. At least, enough stops moving for it to be pointless to be giving a bunch of people the option of working over Xmas. They’d just have nothing to do and be paid for it.
This already happens unofficially around Easter when a lot of people take the extra week off (maybe between Easter and ANZAC day).
That said, it’s not really that cool from an employee POV but I just take leave without pay if I want to save up my leave.
Where’s the “No, I’m working Christmas” option in the poll?
I don't like it being compulsory. Our workplace shuts down. It also reduces leave available for a decent holiday in the northern hemisphere during their summer (mid-year). This is just another reason I will likely be quitting. And the holiday is already booked. If they accommodate the holiday leave, guess I'll stay, but it's doubtful.
It’s not compulsory.
You do have the right to change employers if it bothers you….
If it is not compulsory, then solution is not changing the jobs.
No one is forcing you to work for your current employer.
Hence, it isn’t compulsory. You have a choice.
@baldur: Of course it’s the discussion.
The solution is simple.
If you don’t like being forced to take leave over Christmas, find another job where you aren’t. There’s plenty of jobs where people work through the Christmas period.
If you want change, create it yourself. Changing employers is a way of doing this.
@Extreme: Dude, the solution is to it being compulsory is its not being compulsory. Simple as that. The issue is its being compulsory. If it is not compulsory problem is solved. Its on the employers, not employees. Forcing shouldnt be justified in this circumstance.
@baldur: Disagree.
Businesses are following the law.
If you don’t like it, change jobs. You should be grateful you actually get time off over this period. Plenty of people don’t. I’m working tomorrow.
Maybe it shouldn’t be compulsory for people to work Christmas Day either…..
This year in protest of losing a week of my hard earned annual leave, I chose to take mental health days instead and used personal leave. I feel I need a recharge rather than a holiday
It got approved so I’m pleased with this years forced closures (for a change)
recharge from a holiday
holiday to recharge
tomato tomatoeMental Health days is not a thing
Then why did it get approved?
Mental Health days is not a thing
Lol it's just regular sick leave dude. Mental health is no different to physical health.
It’s not compulsory anymore but I do want to take some time off to spend with family and friends during this period.
Despite being off from the 23rd and returning on the 3rd, I’ll only use 2 annual leave days.
Got forced into a leave, good that they allowed negative balance up to 10 days (I ended up with negative 6), bad that when I actually want to take a leave next year it will be unpaid because of the negative balance. We had 9 working days forced annual leaves on top of Christmas/New Year Public holidays.
Yes. I think it's a great idea. Means the whole place shuts down and there is absolutely no expectation that anything will be done over that period. Alot of people finish up a few days earlier and come back later. It's a great time of year.
Yep and I don’t mind it at all. Got 3 weeks off currently and loving it.
Some might say “but what if you want to go on a holiday during the year”…I still can and if I have to dip into negative leave a little bit that’s still fine.
I would much rather be taking my leave when I want to than when the organisation dictates, but as only 3 days of leave is netting me a 10 day break, I'm not hugely upset.
I work for an organisation that runs 24/7, Xams, NYE and other public holidays are just another day.
The way the roster worked out this year has me having Xmas and Boxing Day as a normal day offs so I will get paid those days.I prefer to use my annual leave out of school holidays (my kids are all adults)
That way I can have my annual leave when its more suitable for me.
I never take leave during school holidays as its cheaper, less people about.
I like forced leave over Christmas.
This year it’s not compulsory and I actually have to come back early because I’ve run out of leave.3 weeks for me, don't mind it but like others have pointed out, it leaves very little leave balance for the rest of the year
I work in IT so I don't get the time off AND I get stiffed with on-call.
My wife's work gets 25 days AL a year with 5 days being reserved for the shutdown period.
We get our Christmas shutdown period off without having to use annual leave. Pretty sweet!
Why would you even want to work across xmas and new year? I hear only government jobs will give you extra holiday leave, private sector jobs make you take your own leave.
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1 week, yeah ok. anymore and it hampers saving leave for a decent holiday
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