When Is a Pool Fence Not Needed?

sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:20
Last edited 17/11/2022 - 15:36

We're going to be installing a pool and have a few questions:

  1. Are there any lockable hard pool covers that mean a pool fence is not required (similar to ones for jacuzzi's that then don't need a fence)
  2. When does a spa or swim spa become a pool? Is it based on size / water volume, etc?
  3. For above ground pools (like container pools), if there is say 1 side that is higher than 1.2m from the ground, does that mean a no fence is required on that side?
    Like this one: https://youtu.be/Tksvxsc4_5A

This is Lake Macquarie council. They are not the most helpful and say to submit a DA for approval. Problem is the whole design will need to change based on what is allowed, so trying to get some basics confirmed first.

Cheers :)

Home & Garden Pool Fence

Comments

  • sharkyoz on 17/11/2022 - 15:21
    +6

    check with your council, they differ

    • b0rnwithabeard on 18/11/2022 - 08:58
      +1

      this is the most accurate answer

    • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2022 - 13:46

      Always required
      Take it from a person that sold pool fences
      Just depends where it must be placed
      Some councils want pool fully isolated.
      Others just want to make sure kids just can’t wonder in from street.
      So in short - YES

  • Xistn on 17/11/2022 - 15:24

    reminds me of this classic lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L8aMI2dwf4

    • ThithLord on 17/11/2022 - 15:29

      The accompanying soundtrack is …. an interesting choice

    • xylarr on 18/11/2022 - 12:56

      Needs more mpeg compression

  • Cheaplikethebird on 17/11/2022 - 15:30
    +5

    Pretty much everywhere requires you to have anything over 30cm deep to be fenced.

    1) Are there any lockable hard pool covers that mean a pool fence is not required (similar to ones for jacuzzi's that then don't need a fence)

    I don't believe this is a thing anywhere in Aus.

    • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:39
      -1

      Anthing over 30cm deep yes, except if its a jacuzzi then no.

      • Cheaplikethebird on 17/11/2022 - 15:44
        +1

        Haha, uh no. Anything over 30cm depth requires a fence and at least in the two states I've checked (NSW and QLD) a lockable cover does not negate the requirement for a fence, I assume this will be the same for every other state also.

        • Quantumcat on 17/11/2022 - 15:50
          +1

          I don't think that can be right. You can buy small spas that sit on your deck and can be moved around. You can't possibly need to install a fence for those. Or for example small blow-up splash pools.

          • Cheaplikethebird on 17/11/2022 - 15:52
            +4

            @Quantumcat: Yeah I think you'll find that all those inflatables are sold with a big disclaimer on them telling you to check local council requirements.

            • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:55
              +1

              @Cheaplikethebird: Correct. And the council even states if water is left in them, they must be locked with a cover or fenced.

              • Drakesy on 17/11/2022 - 18:03

                @sydney1506: @Quantumcat is right, well at least with my council. Due to the height of the spa a lockable cover suffices. Pools would be a different story.

            • Quantumcat on 17/11/2022 - 15:56

              @Cheaplikethebird: So if you have a bucket or watering can in the garden that fills with rain, you need to build a fence around it? Or if you have a rain water tank?

              There has to be a definition of "pool" somewhere that doesn't include things that are not permanent fixtures or semi-permanent (like a spa or above-ground pool)

              • Cheaplikethebird on 17/11/2022 - 15:58

                @Quantumcat: Yeah not sure but I do know that inflatables are bound by the same rules. I vaguely remember there being a thing years ago with a bunch of people getting pinged for unfenced inflatables then they bought in legislation forcing companies to put a disclaimer on the box that say to check local council laws.

                • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 16:15

                  @Cheaplikethebird: Small inflatable pools under 300mm in height
                  Inflatable pools under 300mm in height should carry the following warning labels:

                  Pool owners, parents and carers need to be aware of the potential for drowning even in shallow water. You should always supervise children when they are using these products.
                  Ensure that the water is kept pure. Water left in inflatable pools for periods of time can become contaminated and cause illness.
                  Empty the pool and store it safely (away from young children) when it is not in use.
                  Large inflatable pools 300mm or more in height
                  Inflatable pools 300mm or more in height should carry the following warning labels:

                  the same three warnings as for smaller pools (see above) and
                  pool fencing laws affect this product. Before you buy this pool you should consult your local council.
                  For large inflatable pools of 300mm or more in height consult your council on fencing requirements, child-resistant barriers and a warning sign display.

              • 2esc on 18/11/2022 - 10:05
                +3

                @Quantumcat: Sad thing is toddlers have drowned in buckets of water. They are that small they can fall head first into a bucket and not tip the bucket over. Even with fences it really comes down to constant supervision.

        • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:51
          +2

          No, on this you are actually wrong see point 2.2
          https://www.lakemac.com.au/Development/Compliance/Swimming-p…

          1. Spa pools
            A spa pool (also known as a hot tub or Jacuzzi) is subject to the same requirements as an indoor or outdoor pool. The spa must be surrounded by either:

          2.1 A child-resistant barrier (swimming pool fence) complying with Australian Standard AS1926.1
          2.2 An exemption exists under the legislation that allows spa pool not to be surrounded by a child-resistant barrier (swimming pool fence) if the spa pool has a lockable child-safe structure, such as a door, lid, grille or mesh that is:
          of substantial construction and has no opening through which a testing apparatus* could be passed, and
          fastened to the spa pool by a device that is itself of substantial construction and having no opening through which a testing apparatus* could be passed

          • Cheaplikethebird on 17/11/2022 - 15:55
            +1

            @sydney1506: Ah okay looks like there was a change in 2018

          • Drakesy on 17/11/2022 - 19:16

            @sydney1506:

            2.2 An exemption exists under the legislation that allows spa pool not to be surrounded by a child-resistant barrier (swimming pool fence) if the spa pool has a lockable child-safe structure, such as a door, lid, grille or mesh that is:
            of substantial construction and has no opening through which a testing apparatus* could be passed, and
            fastened to the spa pool by a device that is itself of substantial construction and having no opening through which a testing apparatus* could be passed

            So you don't need a fence then?
            @Qantumcat was right

            • Soluble on 17/11/2022 - 20:05
              +1

              @Drakesy: Thats definitely not the case in vic, a fence is required regardless of a lockable lid, because the lid can be left off

              • Quantumcat on 17/11/2022 - 21:49

                @Soluble: Fence gate can also be propped open - the lid, like the fence, just mitigates risk

                • Soluble on 18/11/2022 - 06:28

                  @Quantumcat: Agreed, i had a spa with just the lid and i kept it on and locked when not in use, to sell the house had to put a fence up.

                  The difference is the spa lid is a manual task. A pool fence is automatic. You dont have to remember to close it, unless you prop it open.

                • brad1-8tsi on 18/11/2022 - 14:35

                  @Quantumcat:

                  Fence gate can also be propped open - the lid, like the fence, just mitigates risk

                  Yes they can be propped open. So many kids have drowned because of of parents failure to supervise children while the gate is propped open.

  • iamherenow on 17/11/2022 - 15:36

    Vic:

    https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/consumers/swimming-pools/pool-safety-barriers#:~:text=Barriers%20aren't%20required%20for,300%20mm%20(30%20cm).

    All swimming pools and spas capable of containing water to a depth greater than 300 mm (30 cm) must have a compliant safety barrier to restrict access to the pool area by young children (under the age of five). Barriers are required for:

    in-ground pools and spas
    above-ground pools and spas, including relocatable and inflatable pools that are capable of holding more than 300 mm (30 cm) depth of water and require assembly on site.
    indoor pools and spas
    bathing and wading pools capable of containing more than 300 mm (30 cm) depth of water.

    Edit: You updated with location. I'm sure the NSW equivalent can easily be found.

    • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:40

      Thanks. I've got all that info, but doesn't answer the specifics about pool walls and heights

      • iamherenow on 17/11/2022 - 15:43

        if it's above 30cm anywhere, my reading is you need a fence for the whole lot. The pool you show is a large pool. There is no way you can do that without a fence around it.

          • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 16:28

            @sydney1506: That's an above-ground pool deeper than 30cm… it needs a fence

            • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 16:35

              @spackbace: So they need a fence too?

              https://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net/s3/digital-cougar-assets/homes/2022/02/03/7138/Untitled-design-(96).jpg?width=1174&height=950&mode=crop&anchor=topcenter&quality=75

              And them?
              https://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net/s3/digital-cougar-asse…

              • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 16:40

                @sydney1506: http://shippingcontainerpools.com.au/faq

                All states and territories have their own unique interpretations of the Australian Standard with regards to pool fencing, therefore it will be your responsibility to ensure that the pool (fence or no fence) complies with your local council requirements.

                Even one of the companies themselves aren't saying no, you don't need a fence

                https://www.justcovers.com.au/shipping-container-pool-5-top-…

                Less fencing is needed – Pool fencing can add considerable cost to the overall price of getting a swimming pool in your backyard. Whereas if you install a shipping container pool above ground you can combine the fence and gate to a much smaller section of the pool to zone it off. This is a far cheaper option than traditional swimming pool fencing.

                From what it reads, the bare minimum would be a gate below the stairs to it, provided the pool walls were over 1.2m high

                • racer1234 on 17/11/2022 - 22:31

                  @spackbace: I saw a pool at a bnb style property that presumably complies. Above ground with around 1.2m walls. Access was from second floor balcony walkway like a jetty with fencing on the sides and a gate to the pool. In Qld.

  • pharkurnell on 17/11/2022 - 15:41
    +1

    Why would you not put a fence around the pool, regardless of council regulations or anything… ?

    • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:42
      +5

      Because I don't have children and would ruin the view, plus if the pool is high enough, why would I want a fence as well?

      • pharkurnell on 17/11/2022 - 15:44
        -1

        Ruin the view? You never have visitors or will never have visitors with kids cause kids never climb either..

        • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:46
          -1

          Actually no… but i will still have a fence when needed, i'm specifically asking if a fence is needed on one side that will be higher than 1.2m anyways - so it has the same effect as a fence.
          Plus kids are more likey to drown by walking or falling into the lake which is not fenced off and not required to be (so odd!)

          • Cheaplikethebird on 17/11/2022 - 15:51
            +1

            @sydney1506: Kids aren't likely to make themselves into a lake completely unattended but many have found their way into backyard pools without anyone around to fish them out. We didn't regulate pool fencing because we thought it was a good idea, it was done after hundreds of kids drowned in backyard pools.

            • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 15:54
              +2

              @Cheaplikethebird: The lake is off our backyard with jetty and boat ramp… they could make it into the lake easier and disappear than a pool which is raised.
              But this is not what i'm talking about. I'm happy to have a fence where needed, and make sure everything is safe, so if the wall is higher than 1.2m on one side, does it negate the need for the fence on that side.

          • trustnoone on 17/11/2022 - 15:59

            @sydney1506:

            i'm specifically asking if a fence is needed on one side that will be higher than 1.2m anyways - so it has the same effect as a fence.

            Interesting question, I assume it would though as I imagine rules are more like "fence needs to be x metres higher then the top of the pool" and never really thought about it being at an edge like you mention.

            In saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if decking legilsation note that if you have a deck with a 1.2m drop you need a fence so people don't drop there. So you might need one anyway?

            FWIW a slippery floor from pool water next to a 1.2m drop does sound a bit worrisome.

            • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 16:03

              @trustnoone: So the regs actually state from the ground up. And the idea is that there would be no decking on that edge so nothing to stand up on and slip off basically (but thats a seperate issue).

              https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/housing-and-property/buil…

              In NSW, a pool fence must:

              be at least 1.2m high (as measured from the finished ground level)

              • racer1234 on 17/11/2022 - 22:34
                +1

                @sydney1506: I think you will find you need a fence but the pool walls may comply as the fence, Different way of thinking about the problem. Proably ask at the local pool shop who the pool certifiers are in the area and talk to one of them. In QLD as least the fence is certified by a certifier to meet the council rules.The council does not inspect.

                • sydney1506 on 18/11/2022 - 09:06

                  @racer1234: Thanks. Will definitely explore certifiers. Appreciate the advise. This is actually helpful!

                • Bristhrifty on 18/11/2022 - 12:12

                  @racer1234: Yep you can definitely use the edge of the pool as the fence in some cases. My uncle just had one built recently and the part that is quite high off the ground has no fence around it. There is only a fence around the entrance where the stairs are located. Its all certified/approved.

  • AndyC1 on 17/11/2022 - 16:04

    You need a pool fence if it's a pool that has a depth of more than 30CM or a cover that cannot be removed. The cover can be mesh, but I cannot remember the max mesh size allowed.

    As for spa etc ask the pool company.

  • Richmond Tigers on 17/11/2022 - 16:15
    +3

    I like watching those American renovation shows where they have no pool fences interrupting the aesthetics of the yard.

    I will forever curse Lawrie Laurence and his crusade to line the pockets of Big Pool Fence.

    • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 17:07

      Tell that to the parents that have lost children in backyard pools.

      • Richmond Tigers on 17/11/2022 - 17:11

        As cruel as it sounds, that's a them problem.

        I had to install a pool fence to protect who exactly? Spent a fair bit of money to ensure that me, my wife and 2 teenage children who can all swim don't drown?

        Pool fencing is a big scam.

        • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 17:19
          -1

          Your teenagers eventually marry and proudly bring the grandchildren for a BBQ, the 12 month old that has just learnt to walkers wanders around and falls in the pool. No need to have a scam pool fence as it's a * them problem.*

          • Richmond Tigers on 17/11/2022 - 17:28
            +2

            @CurlCurl: MIGHT, being the operative word. But as it stands right now, fences are an expensive scam.

            • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 17:44
              +1

              @Richmond Tigers: So are airbags. All these cars I've had with airbags and never needed them once…

  • Ocker on 17/11/2022 - 16:57
    +3

    How about the parents of ALL young kids do the responsible thing and teach their kids to swim at the earliest possible age?
    The cost to pool owners for installing and paying for compliance checks of pool barriers runs into the 100's of millions of $ a year.

    • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 17:11
      +1

      So a kid can learn to walk by 1yo, and hence walk/fall into a pool… How young do you think you can teach them to keep their head above water? Sure as shit ain't 1yo!

      • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 17:21
        +1

        All my siblings and cousins were drown proofed by the age of 8 months old. You don't need to be able to swim, just learn to roll on your back and keep mouth above the water line. And that was fully clothed - shoes and all!

        • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 17:30
          -4

          And you had your drivers licence when you were two.

          • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 17:34
            -1

            @CurlCurl: Honestly, I'm all for pool safety but just wanted some questions answered.
            And I'm being truthful about drown proofing!

            • Leo Getz on 18/11/2022 - 23:46

              @sydney1506: Drown proofing, wow, you have no idea.
              Taught my kids to swim under the supervision/guidance of a swim teacher who specialised in teaching babies to swim.
              They were far from being drown proofed at 8 months.
              Just fence the pool!

          • cookie2 on 17/11/2022 - 21:24

            @CurlCurl: What is that supposed to mean?

        • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 17:42
          +1

          Right, so in a supervised environment they managed that, yet you think they'd do that when they were panicking and trying to scream for someone?

          Yup, course…

          Easy to believe something will happen, when it didn't happen.

          • sydney1506 on 17/11/2022 - 17:46

            @spackbace: Defensive much….???!!!

            • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 18:00

              @sydney1506: Nope, you'd know if I was :)

              • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 18:26

                @spackbace: Sounds like nhs84 is ENTITLED to his view of the lake.

                • cookie2 on 17/11/2022 - 21:25

                  @CurlCurl: Wow, you pulled out the E word. We're all Entitled to our opinions aren't we?

                  • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 21:36

                    @cookie2: In case you missed what I wrote, here it is again. Sounds like nhs84 is ENTITLED to his view of the lake.

                    • sydney1506 on 18/11/2022 - 09:12

                      @CurlCurl: Never said I'm entitled to the view, it would just ruin it a bit.
                      So again, just trying to find out if a raised pool (that a child can't just walk or wandering into) would mean the fence is not required on the one side. And if a raised pool which has a wall higher than 1.2m isn't, then I'll put a glass fence. But no point doing it if its not needed - simple.

      • Ocker on 17/11/2022 - 17:32
        +3

        My 2 kids were "drown proofed" well before they would walk. You sure as shit aint a parent, or if you are you don't know the basic responsibilities of being a parent.

        • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 17:41
          +2

          Before they could walk, you think they could hold their head up in water while stressed and trying to yell out? lol yeah of course…

          Panicked situations can't be predicted, and you can't possibly think that a swimming lesson would be the same reaction as real life for a toddler/baby

          • Ocker on 17/11/2022 - 17:46
            +1

            @spackbace: Suggest you look at a few video's about how young'ens are drown proofed.
            topic closed

            • spackbace on 17/11/2022 - 17:59

              @Ocker: Nah I'm good

              topic closed

            • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 18:29

              @Ocker: Do you think ALL young'ens are drown proofed.

              • cookie2 on 17/11/2022 - 21:26

                @CurlCurl: Oh we're talking about every child in human history now. Ofcourse. That makes sense and is completely relevant.

            • randomvis on 17/11/2022 - 19:14

              @Ocker: I dropped mine in the ocean to test it out— you lied.

              You also owe me some kids.

    • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 17:12
      +1

      Teach them to swim? Do you really think a crawling baby can be taught to swim?

      How do you put a price on a child's life?

      • cookie2 on 17/11/2022 - 21:27

        So put a price on someone designing their pool and backyard in their private property instead?

    • Quantumcat on 17/11/2022 - 17:13

      The lives of human beings are at stake, and kids can't choose who their parents are or whether they will teach them to swim. Their lives are still valuable and worth as much as a kid whose parents can teach them.

      Plus, even with all the skills it is physically possible to teach them, a toddler is unlikely to have the coordination to save themselves. A 4 year old, maybe. Plus add heavy clothing that restricts their movement, maybe even a 4 year old would not be able to save themselves. Frankly you have a pretty terrible opinion.

  • ifyareckon on 17/11/2022 - 17:14

    From https://www.mypoolsafety.com.au/blog/2018/12/7/how-compliant…

    IS A POOL FENCE REQUIRED AROUND AN ABOVE GROUND POOL?
    According to the Swimming Pools Regulations 2008, the walls of the above ground pool (including inflatable pools) is not considered as an effective child-resistant barrier. This means that this type of pools must still comply with the pool fence compliance regulations.

    This regulation was also stated on the Building Code of Australia (BCA) Part 3.9.3. Aside from the pool safety legislations, pool owners should always keep their above ground pools in good condition.

    Seems pretty clear cut……

  • ESEMCE on 17/11/2022 - 18:21

    Wrong question.
    Does a lockable cover exist and is it usable without requiring an on-site crane, for anything remotely close to something that any reasonable person would describe as a pool?

    I think we all know the answer here.

    So install a fence or forego the pool.

    Or (your lame argument works both ways) be satisfied with your Jaccuzi sized "pool" with lockable cover.

    • sydney1506 on 18/11/2022 - 09:03

      Happy to get a crane, thats not the issue.

      • ESEMCE on 18/11/2022 - 18:44

        I think you missed the point.
        A lockable lid for a pool is going to be unbelievably heavy.
        In order to remove it, you'd need a crane or barest minimum some very heavy duty hydraulics.
        It's not a thing cause it'd be bespoke engineering and nobody wants a crane parked in their backyard forever.

  • cookie2 on 17/11/2022 - 19:04

    I sh!t you not, in Vic even a blow up kiddie pool is 'supposed' to have a pool fence. Anything more than 30cm , well start building that council approved fence and pay the $$$$$. This is what humans have created. https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/consumers/swimming-pools/pool-saf…

    • CurlCurl on 17/11/2022 - 19:16

      Only if you leave it full of water. Tip the water out and you can leave the pool up.

      • Quantumcat on 17/11/2022 - 21:52

        But presumably it would need a fence when it has water in it. Unless you never use it, it would need a fence. I still don't think it makes sense.

        Maybe there should be a provision for only needs a fence if it contains water when there are no adults supervising it

  • randomvis on 17/11/2022 - 19:12

    Ok, in most councils there is a loophole for fish ponds and councils won't be able to regulate it either.

    Councils cannot regulate them because if they did they would have to install and maintain a child safety fence around every body of water that is under their control, which would be prohibitively expensive, lmao. This is the case for most councils, so just call your "pool" a fishpond instead.

    But this means you actually need to create a "natural" swimming pool fishpond rather than a chlorinated pool.

  • jv on 17/11/2022 - 23:05
    +1

    When Is a Pool Fence Not Needed?

    When you don't have a pool.

  • dan2k on 18/11/2022 - 07:48
    +1

    Just call someone who inspects pool fences for council and ask them the requirements.
    Our inspector came and looked and gave us advice, then we complied and he signed off on it. it wasn't expensive but I did have to pay for it.
    it's up to the inspectors interpretation if there is a grey area. In my experience you need to err on the site of caution.
    if you don't want to look at a fence, get a glass one..

    • sydney1506 on 18/11/2022 - 09:07

      Thanks. Looks like a certifier might be the best route. Appreciate the helpful suggestion.

  • jayta on 18/11/2022 - 10:35

    I had previously looked into what constitutes a spa and it was something about how it was used. I cant find the source now though. On the lake mac website it says: " The exemption for a lockable lid does not apply to swim spas or spa pools that are manufactured for the purpose of swimming." https://www.lakemac.com.au/Development/Compliance/Swimming-p…

  • bamzero on 18/11/2022 - 10:58

    It may vary between councils, but there should be documentation somewhere. Generally self closing doors resistant to a minimum force for anywhere that has access to the pool.

    At my parents place, they made the screen doors self closing and latching. The flyscreen was strong enough (from memory they had aluminium mesh on the doors, but fibreglass on the windows also passed. Tested with bricks to the correct weight swung at the screen in front of the inspector which passed what was written in the requirements)

  • psdillon on 18/11/2022 - 13:32

    When I checked VIC rules about 4 or 5 years ago, there was an exception if the pool was normally expected to be emptied after use. I guess for spa-baths, so not helpful for OP but thought I'd mention it. I have seen some display homes that do this kind of thing, with a large round ~500mm deep tub that could fit 3 or 4 people, with no pump/filter.

    We planned to have a spa in an area up against fixed floor-to-ceiling windows of our house, to minimise the amount of fencing and create a nice view. Never ended up doing it tho.

  • jrvb42 on 18/11/2022 - 21:30
    -1

    You don't need a pool fence if you pay cash and the pool is not visible to prying neighbours or the public or council.

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