Weird Priority on Frederick Street - Is This Real?

pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 08:52
Last edited 22/09/2022 - 09:16

I'm visiting Sydney from QLD at the moment, and needed to drive through the Inner West yesterday. Google put me onto Frederick Street, which felt like a major suburban road. Suddenly, I came across this at the intersection with Eccles Street (https://goo.gl/maps/g4pS1274mcx5GjjNA)

EDIT: Some posters have pointed out that there are "Do Not Queue Across Intersection" signs at Eccles Street. That's a good point, but there's the same line treatment a bit up the road at Hedger Avenue where these signs aren't present (going north) - https://goo.gl/maps/WHjEExzdo84fzyRJ7.

It looked like through traffic on Frederick Street (the more major road in this intersection, and the through road at the T) needs to give way to Eccles Street (the minor side road). There's no Give Way signage, but that definitely looks like a give-way line to me - and my understanding is that the road rules say that the line is as good as a sign.

EDIT: As above, there are "Do Not Queue Across Intersection" signs at Eccles Street, but if you head northbound on Frederick Street you don't see a sign at Hedger Ave, so if you just cruise through Eccles because you linked the lines with the 'do not queue' sign, let me know what your thoughts are northbound at Hedger Avenue!

I slowed down here to see if anyone was coming from Eccles Street, but didn't notice anybody else doing that. If you go into Street View, you'll notice that driving from Frederick St (north->south), you can't see easily see what's coming from Eccles Street until the give way line.

So - I'll throw it to the drivers of OzBargain who have been through here before - do you slow down on Frederick Street?

Poll Options expired

  • 7
    Yes, I slow down approaching this Give Way line
  • 12
    No, I just drive straight through without slowing
Automotive

Comments

  • skid on 22/09/2022 - 09:06
    +7

    It's not a Give Way line. The dotted lines are so that cars do not queue across the intersection.

    • Payne on 22/09/2022 - 09:08

      Yep, this. It's just so that if there's a lot of traffic on Frederick St, cars from Eccles Ave can still get out.

      • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:29

        This seems to be an unusual way of doing this. Usually they would paint a big "KEEP CLEAR" on the road rather than dashed lines across the intersection. They've done that at Elizabeth Street/Benalla Avenue just around the corner, so it's not like they've got a policy against "Keep Clear" words on the pavement.

        • Ghost47 on 22/09/2022 - 10:29
          +4

          I agree, that would be much more obvious to drivers.

          The dotted lines imply you should beware about moving into the space, be it during heavy or even light traffic — although a solid line would be more definitive in both situations but this would probably cause people to come to a full stop, which Transport for NSW probably don’t want (and this is the same for Hedger ave to the north).

          What’s weird is that Albert Parade (in between Eccles and Hedger) doesn’t get this treatment, instead the dotted line implies to let traffic pass on Frederick St. so basically if you’re on Albert Pde during peak hour traffic you’re screwed and have to hope a nice Sydneysider (good luck finding one of those in peak hour traffic when it’s basically The Hunger Games on the roads) will let you get onto the road. Why would they not apply the same treatment there I wonder? Maybe someone at TfNSW dated someone who lives on Albert Pde and it didn’t end well so in spite they designed the road like that specifically to make their life hell.

          Not surprised that as an interstater you’re bamboozled by the weird roads. The only people who think they’re normal are people who grew up in Sydney and are used to how weird they are.

          This post reminds me, TfNSW is finally investing some of their money into upgrading the intersection outside one of the shopping centres nearby I need to follow up and let them know my thoughts about the design (it already needs work) and a big and obvious “KEEP CLEAR” sign was exactly one of the things I was going to recommend to them to assist traffic flow out onto the main road (because the main driveway is so close to the main road that only 5-6 cars can queue up before backing up past the driveway making it harder for people to actually leave the centre and get onto the main road).

          While you’re in Sydney I recommend driving on Parramatta Rd sometime, it’s a really nice and well maintained road and is just a joy to drive on. Also recommend driving around Hurstville.

    • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:08

      I would have said so too.. but there's no give way line or sign on Eccles Street?

      Also, there's a similar treatment further up the road at the intersection with Hedger Avenue. There's not really any queues that would extend up to this point of Frederick Street (I think? I haven't driven through here in peak hour).

      • kerfuffle on 22/09/2022 - 09:12
        -1

        There's not really any queues that would extend up to this point of Frederick Street (I think? I haven't driven through here in peak hour).

        Ahahahahaha you definitely have no idea about Sydney peak hour traffic.

        • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:14

          Good point, but why do this treatment for Hedger Avenue and Eccles Street, but not Albert Parade or Mackay Street between those two intersections?

          • kerfuffle on 22/09/2022 - 09:52

            @pangwen: Why don't you ask TfNSW instead of OzBargain?

            • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:54
              -1

              @kerfuffle: I did, they replied "we're on holiday today, go away" (/s). Also, OzBargain seems to be the place to ask all of your road rules related questions.

  • kerfuffle on 22/09/2022 - 09:06
    -1

    What OP hasn't mentioned: the two lots of Do Not Queue Across Intersection signs on Frederick St.

    • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:09
      -1

      Yes… fair.. but there's also another intersection further up the road (Hedger Avenue) with no "Do Not Queue Across Intersection" signs or Give Way signs (on Frederick St going northbound). Same question applies there.

  • Ugly on 22/09/2022 - 09:07
    +1

    The lines go with the “do not queue across intersection” sign.

    • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:10
      +1

      Yes, that's true, but there's also another intersection further up the road (Hedger Avenue) with no "Do Not Queue Across Intersection" signs or Give Way signs (on Frederick St going north). The same question applies there.

  • AndyC1 on 22/09/2022 - 09:14
    -1

    It's a do not queue across intersection, not a give way.

    https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.8834419,151.1207038,3a,7…

    Helps if drivers look at the signs.

    • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:15

      Yes, that's true, but there's also another intersection further up the road (Hedger Avenue) with no "Do Not Queue Across Intersection" signs or Give Way signs (on Frederick St going north). The same question applies there.

      • AndyC1 on 22/09/2022 - 09:39
        -1

        You need to use goolge maps a bit better than you are. Open your goolge maps and head south at the new intersection you have an issue with.

        • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 09:40
          +1

          Yes, there is one going south.. but what about going north? If you were driving north, there's no sign to indicate to you that the broken line across the road is anything other than a give way line.

          Also, my reading of the road rules is that the broken lines are still a give way line despite the presence of the "do not queue" sign. The NSW Road Rules state that ""give way line" means a broken line that is marked across all or part of a road and is not part of a marked foot crossing."

          • AndyC1 on 22/09/2022 - 09:43

            @pangwen: Call the council and let them know the sign is missing.

          • GordonD on 22/09/2022 - 10:22
            +1

            @pangwen: I don't see that anywhere in the rules. The stop or give way sign tells you you have to stop or give way. The line, if it there. just tells you where you have to do it, but only if there's a sign that tells you you have to do it. If there's no line you have to do it at the sign.

            I don't see it anywhere in the rules that if there's only a line on the road, you have to act as if there's a sign. Unless there's supposed to be a sign there and its been knocked down, vandalised, or similar.

            • pangwen on 22/09/2022 - 10:39

              @GordonD: That's just my interpretation of this: http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/nsw/cons…

              A driver at an intersection (except a roundabout) with a give way sign or give way line must give way in accordance with this rule.

              My reading of the or is that it doesn't matter if you're approaching an intersection with either a give way sign or a give way line, you need to follow the give way rules. If they intended it only to happen if there's a sign, then they wouldn't have mentioned the give way line in that sentence.

  • Rako on 22/09/2022 - 10:10
    +2

    They look the same as give way lines to me

    • pegaxs on 22/09/2022 - 11:42
      +1

      Yep, me too.

      Under NSW Road Rule 96, it states;

      96 Keep clear markings

      (1) A driver must not stop on an area of a road marked with a keep clear marking.

      (2) In this rule— "keep clear marking" means the words “keep clear” marked across all or part of a road, with or without continuous lines marked across all or part of the road.

      In neither of these examples is there the words "Keep Clear" on the road.

      What a "Keep Clear" road marking should look like is outlined in the Road Delineation Manual - Section 9 - Messages on pavement, page 9-5.

      Give Way lines are oulined in Road Delineation Manual - Section 6 - Traverse Markings on page 6-5. The NSW Road Rules also defines a give way line as;

      give way line means a broken line that is marked across all or part of a road and is not part of a marked foot crossing.

      Now, tell me, do OP's examples look like Section 9 road markings, or Section 6 lines?

      100% these are "Give Way Lines"

      InB4: "There needs to be give way signs!!!". Bzzzzt, wrong. NSW Road Rule 69 (giggity) states;

      69 (Giggity) Giving way at a give way sign or give way line at an intersection (except a roundabout)

      (1) A driver at an intersection (except a roundabout) with a give way sign or give way line must give way in accordance with this rule.

  • GordonD on 22/09/2022 - 10:14
    +4

    It should be noted that it is an offence to enter ANY intersection "if the driver cannot drive through the intersection because the intersection, or a road beyond the intersection, is blocked".

    (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104…)

    So where there are signs they are just asking you to especially not do it there, because it creates special problems there. And where that's the case there'll probably be special enforcement of the rule.

  • elgrande on 22/09/2022 - 10:18
    +3

    Ahh yes, all Sydneysiders know Frederick st.

    • bobbified on 22/09/2022 - 13:22

      One of my work mates mentioned that his kid was conceived in that traffic! 😅 (we did ask him whether we heard him correctly but no-one asked for any further details!).

  • Ryanek on 23/09/2022 - 07:30
    +1

    That IS confusing. Take this intersection

    Church street has to give way but this is not obvious if you're the one travelling down Boundary Ln.

    • kerfuffle on 23/09/2022 - 07:35

      It's obvious. There's give way signs there on either side of Church St. They just ignore them, and the broken lines on the road, and drive straight into your car.

      Source: Knew where it was as soon as you mentioned those two streets. One of my five not-at-fault accidents happened there because the person driving straight on Church St towards Cabramatta Road West failed to give way to me on Boundary Lane.

      • Ghost47 on 23/09/2022 - 16:10
        +1

        Looks like an accident waiting to happen. If I were driving down Boundary Ln to Church St I would instinctively slow down on approach even though I legally have the right of way.

        I feel like this is an intersection where everyone approaching needs to slow down and not just drive right through. The street parking is also prohibitive to seeing oncoming traffic on Church St also.

        Who designed these stupid intersections.

        • kerfuffle on 23/09/2022 - 16:12
          +1

          An accident did happen. I was in one at that location (not at fault)

          • Ghost47 on 23/09/2022 - 16:16
            +1

            @kerfuffle: Yes, I read your comment. That would be a frustrating accident to be in, hope it wasn't bad!

            • kerfuffle on 23/09/2022 - 16:18
              +1

              @Ghost47: Not as bad as the fifth one ha. This one in Cabra was on the left hand side and while it couldn't really go any faster than 40km/h as it made noises if I did, was still able to drive back home. Took a few weeks to repair and lasted another seven years until said fifth accident wrote off my car.

              • Ghost47 on 23/09/2022 - 16:22
                +1

                @kerfuffle: Sounds like you have terrible luck when it comes to driving on these roads lol, what a pain.

                • kerfuffle on 23/09/2022 - 16:24
                  +1

                  @Ghost47: Yeah haha. Fingers crossed new car doesn't suffer the same fate!

    • Ghost47 on 23/09/2022 - 16:07

      Not surprised at yet another inane T intersection in Sydney with a weird priority.

      I wonder if instead of having those dotted lines where they're painted now, which IMO just feels unintuitive and somewhat dangerous (although I guess it makes sense if Boundary Ln is often full of traffic that has to exit onto Church St), they instead painted a solid line and placed a stop sign at the end of Boundary Ln?

      If Church St is normally quieter than Boundary Ln then maybe stop signs and a solid line on either side would be more obvious.

      • kerfuffle on 23/09/2022 - 16:11

        If Church St is normally quieter than Boundary Ln then maybe stop signs and a solid line on either side would be more obvious.

        You could put all the signs in the world there and people will still ignore them. It's Cabra.

        • Ghost47 on 23/09/2022 - 16:15

          Lol fair enough. Maybe a set of lights with a red light camera then.

  • tabitha731 on 23/09/2022 - 16:14

    This spot is a high accident area. With a death in recent months, locals have petitioned to have ways to slow traffic down do pedestrians area safe to just be on the footpath or to even dare cross the road

  • jzdhgkd on 03/10/2022 - 08:31

    As a Sydney sider I completely agree with you it is very confusing for someone who hasn't driven through that street before.

    When I was on my red Ps my first time driving through there was late at night with a car full of passengers. At that spot I thought I was about to run a give way sign at 60km/h and slammed the brakes before realising what the road markings were actually indicating! Embarrassing moment that one.

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