New J Tarrif Times = Using Your Solar and Charging You More than Peak Power for It

• 

  avoidfullprice on 26/05/2022 - 01:39

  +2

  So what this means is we lose 16c per kWh export, plus paying 19c/kWh for our own generated electricity. Or in other words the J tarrif off peak is 16+19= 35c/kWh vs full peak at 33c/kWh.

  If your HWS is consuming 1kW that period, it will not double dip and draw 1kW from solar and 1kW grid at the same time.

  16+19 part implies your HWS is heating up twice as fast.

  Your post then escalated about someone not taking responsibility. I didn't quite follow.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 15:13

    Some confusion. What I mean is that by charging me for my own solar, I'm losing 16c per kwh feed in, and then being charged 19c per kwh for it. So the net cost is 16c+19c… Madness

    • 

      avoidfullprice on 26/05/2022 - 17:46

      Not right.

      If your HWS is consuming 1kW, it either self consume solar or from grid.

      If solar, your are losing out 16c

      If from grid , you are paying out 19c.

      You are actually saving 3c by using solar. Like the comment suggested below.

      The fact that your HWS is on, and I assume is on via the J tarrif signal, is what worsening your situation, because your water is boiling at a time you don't need.

      How the HWS timer work is something I don't know enough.

      • 

        tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 19:33

        Thats how i think it should work as well.

        But I can 100% confirm it is using my solar energy, not paying export for it and then charging me for it.

        Someone else complained about the same thing on a Whirlpool forum. Mine is exactly the same.

        • 

          Euphemistic on 26/05/2022 - 21:01

          @tunzafun001: Doesn’t sound right to me. Off peak hot water was always a separate circuit with a separate meter. This was specifically so that you couldn’t heat your water except when the grid had excess generation (at night). You couldn’t heat hot water other than off peak as a compromise for having cheaper rates. The separate meter received some sort of signal from the grid to turn it on/off. The new smart meter seems to be able to use excess grid solar in the same way, so when there’s excess in the grid the pump it into everyone’s HWS, then don’t need so much over night.

          Your solar should not be connected to the off peak circuit unless you have had a diverter installed that pushes excess solar into the hot water before it sends excess to the grid.

          Solar generation might be down due to cloudy weather?

          • 

            tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 22:58

            @Euphemistic: Check out my response to the comment below.

          • 

            ESEMCE on 27/05/2022 - 08:48

            @Euphemistic: Yeah, you're probably right.
            BUT the solar export should be still occurring through the other meter, so OP would be paying 3c for import assuming the solar is generating sufficient to cover household usage (which the household meter wont record either in or out) as well as the Hot Water J tarrif consumption.

        • 

          avoidfullprice on 26/05/2022 - 22:15

          @tunzafun001: For our better understanding, what do you use to monitor instant generation, consumption and export?

          If what you say is right, then the meter is configured with gross feed in but not registering export. However, the solar energy is indeed feeding back off the grid, before you consume from the grid.

          It depends how you get the figures.

          • 

            tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 22:53

            @avoidfullprice: Ok.

            So I have monitoring with my solar / battery setup (Eastron energy meter). Plus you can log in and check your historical power usage from the Atlas 7A smart meter via the Grid suppliers website (SAPN).

            The smart meter has a "boost" function so you can heat your water further if you use a lot of hotwater during the day (only for 2hrs). This is still charged at J tarrif rates.

            I recently replaced our element, and know it's a 2100 watt element.

            When I press the boost function, our solar export drops instantly by 2100w. I then hit the breaker and solar export comes back, re engage breaker, export drops again.

            Then when I check the billing on SAPN, we have been charged for 2100w at that time, and our export reduced by 2100w in the same time period.

            Basically..100% confirmed that we are paying for our own solar when J tarrif is being used during the day.

            Now just recently i noticed these 2100w block changes happening during the day. It never used to be an issue as J tarrif was only at night, or when boost was pressed. But now they are engaging it during the day, so it's a problem.

            • 

              avoidfullprice on 26/05/2022 - 23:19

              +1

              @tunzafun001: With this, I take what I said back.

              I agree with you that it is the meter is at fault. Specifically the software is defective. The export is calculated on the grid side, when it should be on the mains side; or hws usage is accumulated regardless of your net export status

              So if there are three current sensors in the meter, say I_main (positive means from meter to house + solar), I_grid (positive means from grid to meter) and I_hws (positive means from meter to HWS), the software is calculating HWS usage even if I_main is negative.

              Hmm, I would make complaint to the energy ombudsman on Lumo the retailer as they are the one ultimately billing you. Describing your situation to the ombudsman will be a challenge

              • 

                tunzafun001 on 27/05/2022 - 00:18

                @avoidfullprice: Yep that's it… I think…Thanks for this.

                I figured either the solar needs to be fed in 'house side' of both the I_main and the I_hws circuits (is this doable?)

                Just to confirm, as per your scenario where the negative value should be deducted from the usage value. Ie with a 16c feed in and 19c usage, we should only be paying 3c/kWh for our own solar? or if the negative kWh offsets the usage kWh entirely, then nothing should be charged?

                And lastly ….what happens if the peak energy and j Tarrif is being used at the same time and solar only covers a bit of it. Ie. How is the negative value applied (50/50) to each?

• 

  rektrading on 26/05/2022 - 07:42

  Solar power is costing the supplier 💵.

  It was only a matter of time before they shut down the free lunch.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 15:16

    I understand that, but by simply changing the offpeak time of J tarrif, they are incorrectly charging people for their own solar output.

    Currently I have no charge for solar output…but I am actually paying it as they haven't considered the implications of a time shift.

    Ie. Offpeak is infintely more expensive than peak (as, if my HWS was on peak tarrif, it would be offset by solar at $0 cost)

• 

  Mokr on 26/05/2022 - 07:59

  Opportunity cost is a spilled milk concept

• 

  RockyRaccoon on 26/05/2022 - 08:49

  Some solar installtions have feature to divert power from solar to HWS if it determines that the rate is more favourable. This would be in the solar management system itself. Eg Enphase setup if you have enphase system.

  You might want to contact your installer as often they have access to this setup. Maybe some of the prices have changed so the setup wont detect them. Maybe the solar installer (or you) updated them and got it wrong. I dont know, but the controlling of the switch would be most likely in the software of your solar controller.

  Then again maybe it's nothing like this.. Good luck

• 

  ESEMCE on 26/05/2022 - 09:26

  +4

  Nope… doesn't work that way.
  Solar that you generate doesn't pass through the meter unless it's being exported.

  The actual thing that's happening is that you're saving at least 3c for every kWh you consume/don't export.
  BUT, I wonder how the maths works if you've also got the Oven on at the same time and you're importing?
  Does the Solar offset the J Tarrif as a priority or the regular tariff?

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 23:24

    Yeah, I see what you are saying. Unfortunately this isn't the case. I can log in to the grid provider website and see that solar export drops by just over 2100 watts (which is the element) at exactly the same time I'm charged for just over 2100 watts (but charged in FULL). There is no reduction from the solar input. Confirmed further with a phone call to them to check.

    I had a look at a few different ways a Smart Meter with J Tarrif can be wired. It appears that these 7A meters were wired with the solar feeding in before the peak meter only. Like you I would think solar should be house side of both meters (so only the extra drawn from the grid is counted on both meters). Which raises your connundrum ..what happens when J Tarrif and Peak are drawing at the same time, and solar isn't enough to cover both. Do they just split it 50/50 (both the solar usage and the import)? Good question!

    I don't think my case is unique. Well I know it isn't as another poor guy raised it on an AGL and Whirlpool forum (most thought he was insane, and AGL fobbed him off). But he is 100% correct.

    All works fine when J tarrif is only at night. But now with solar sponge enabling J tarrif during the day, I recon a lot of people are getting ripped without knowing it. Find it hard to believe my Atlas 7A is wired different to any other in the street.

    • 

      ESEMCE on 27/05/2022 - 08:52

      Yep, I've reconsidered… it sounds like they've merged the two meters into one and either there's a software issue or a wiring issue that is buggering things up.
      Definitely worth taking to the Ombudsman if you're getting no joy from the retailer.

• 

  Switchblade88 on 26/05/2022 - 09:39

  +3

  the electricity is coming from our solar panels, then straight through the smart meter and then off to the HWS

  This is the incorrect assumption you are basing the rest of your argument off. That's not how metering works, that's not how your meter board is wired.

  So noticed our solar exports are down for the last few months

  Maybe because we're almost in winter?

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 23:26

    Hi mate. Can you elaborate more on what you think is happening? In particular how the 7A's with J Tarrif are wired.

    Please see my comment here which explains what I can confirm with both local and grid monitoring.

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/12182611/redir

    Thanks

• 

  Drakesy on 26/05/2022 - 10:02

  +3

  Electricity definitely doesn't work like that.
  Your meter is set up to only count the import and export. The HWS would be pulling straight from the panels, any excess required comes from the grid.

  • 

    Euphemistic on 26/05/2022 - 15:41

    Off peak hot water often has a separate part of the meter, separate circuit. The rest of the power used in the house will be on a single circuit with the in/out from the solar counting against the main power circuit.

    • 

      Drakesy on 26/05/2022 - 16:07

      Pardon my ignorance. But why would you have a separate part of the meter for a hot water system?

      • 

        Euphemistic on 26/05/2022 - 16:19

        Off peak is metered separately as far as I know. It is so that water can be heated overnight and charged at a separate cheaper rate. It is also separated so you get a discount for the ‘inconvenience’ of only heating from around 10pm to 6am or whatever the times are.

        In the good old days there were two physical meter dials. Now it’s just one digital display. Somehow the power generators send a signal out for the off peak to turn on and take up load not otherwise used from the grid. Modern smart grids should be able to do this anytime there is excess generation eg sunny days when no one is using AC.

        • 

          tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 23:38

          @Euphemistic: Yep, this is correct. The issue is where the solar is feeding back into the meter vs where the J Tarrif and Peak Power is coming back in.

          In simple terms, if more power is going out than in, then its an export.

          However, it all falls over when J Tarrif is using it up.

          Then there is no export (or at least reduced), and the J Tarrif just records the kWh going through it. It doesn't know where it is coming from.

          Net result. You are paying the full amount for all electricity going through the J tarrif recorder and losing your solar export.

          Or in other words….you are paying for your own solar…and worse, the net cost is more than paying peak power from the grid.

• 

  tunzafun001 on 26/05/2022 - 23:46

  +1

  • Update - SA Powernetworks called me today and said the retailer needs to commission a job for ES to come out and re wire the meter. He feels that this isn't the way they are meant to work.

  So even though ES owns all the meters and rents them to Lumo/ AGL etc, they don't need to fix them unless a job ticket is raised by Lumo /AGL etc.

  He said if they (Lumo) don't come out to fix it, then report them to the Ombudsman.

  • 

    Euphemistic on 27/05/2022 - 07:39

    Agree from what you say it sounds like your meter is not wired correctly.

    • 

      tunzafun001 on 27/05/2022 - 10:33

      Be interesting to see how many others are exactly the same. This only caught my attention as I saw someone else reporting it on a forum.

      I'll report back on how this plays out.

  • 

    ESEMCE on 27/05/2022 - 08:54

    Sounds like a good result, now to calculate your losses for reimbursement!