Just read the news that staff would start wearing Bodycams in retail stores. Yes totally against abusive customers but regular customer shouldn't be subject to this crap.
Would staff be happy if they are being filmed by customer at all times? I guess No.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/cameras/target-wo…
Irony of this, I went to my local bank to drop off some forms. I went on my motorcycle and wore and open face helmet. When I entered, I was asked to remove my helmet… all while standing behind two people wearing masks and a guy with a face mask and sunglasses on…
I actually think that's more related to armouring yourself as opposed to hiding your appearance.
Don't get into a fight with a motorcycle helmet on.
It makes it really easy to snap your neck, or physically manipulate your head.
@ozbjunkie: Sure. If you are facing someone who knows how to fight.
It would be a huge advantage in 95% of situations
It's a sh!t state of affairs feel threatened . The only time I have seen it is when a staff member challenged a shoplifter and the shoplifter's coroberee outside started to get aggressive.
In such cases I support cameras to use as more evidence in court.
It generally doesn't go to court tho. From what I've seen myself in retail.
I don't care, I assume I'm filmed in every shop I go into. This is just so the employee can capture some more info when Karen loses her shit so the management don't need to wait for it to be uploaded to Youtube first by a bystander.
Not sure what they hope to really capture as its mostly verbal abuse from halfwits.
But hey, if it acts as a deterrent, why not.
I don’t care if they have the cams on (but my fat fingers clicked the wrong poll option 🥴)
Potentially not great for the employees either depending on how they spend their time and conduct themselves. I’d feel uncomfortable at work being watched all the time to this degree.
Couldn't the employee just not turn.the body cam on?
Who knows I guess…
If they could turn it off, would the employee be worried the employer is recording regardless. If not it’s the same as other employees working under constant surveillance, which tends to lead to stress, irrespective of if the employee is doing anything wrong.
The article.says that it's normally off and they choose to turn on? What do you mean if they could turn.it off?
“These cameras will be worn by selected team members and turned on only in the event of an escalating situation where they feel there is a threat to their safety,” the sign said."
@Tleyx: I guess it could start that way and then change. Also it wouldn’t be the first time that an employer had lied and surveilled their staff ie they say it only records when they turn it on, but it actually records all the time. This is also only talking about one scenario, if it becomes more wide spread different employers may use it in different ways.
@morse: Could it actually record all the time.without the staff knowing it would need to be charged
Better ways to spy on staff than a body cam if that's what an employer wants to do
@Tleyx: Yeah not sure on the tech, but perhaps they could also turn on/off without employees knowing. Might not even be company policy, but anyone with the ability could potentially exploit it. I suppose that could happen regardless, eg leaving a recording device somewhere without telling staff. I suppose I’m just not loving a highly surveilled world despite it having some benefits.
I don't like it from the point of view of employees privacy and workplace norms. Just another thing to make retail suck in aus if it gets implemented. This won't stop the really horrid people or theft anyway (plus the cops hardly rock up and choose prosecution carefully anyway), but it'd be used for performance management and coaching I'm sure, which it shouldn't be allowed for anyway, just like security cam footage isn't supposed to be. This will just give more fuel to management and businesses that treat staff unethically imo. If retail unions were actually doing the job they should, it'd be stamped down very quickly.
"it's for your health" worked for ✌️ years.
"it's for your protection". should work now.
Anyone have any bargains for one? I work in retail and this would be great when dealing with cusomters. I would only be turning it on when im requested to the front for a customer
Yes totally against abusive customers but regular customer shouldn't be subject to this crap.
Well it 'regular customers' didn't abuse the crap out of the staff they wouldn't have to wear them.
Wouldn't they be better off just installing more CCTV throughout the store, it would also capture theft rather then just abusive customers.
Because it's not for customers at all.
You are aware, that as a customer you are being filmed by CCTV anyway right?
Bodycams will cover more personal incidents and have mics.
I don't see the issue.
No one will view the footage if you do nothing wrong, the SD card will get full and rewrite itself - unless something happens and they need to take the data off it.
I.E. Same as a regular CCTV in these large stores.
Non issue.
b b b but clive boomer promised me freedom forever!
Cameras monitoring staff sold as a safety measure. One step closer to full monitoring 24/7 by our billionaire tech overlords.
If the employee needs to activate it it’s either jr going to get turned on until too late or left on too much. Footage likely to be mostly useless and/or used against the employee more often.
Just seems unnecessary to me, but then I don’t really know how common issues with customers are serious enough to warrant this type of footage.
In Chinese office jobs, CCTV records you at work, while pc software records your productivity.
People work 996 - 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Don't like it? You won't find a better job somewhere else and will end up unemployed.
I point this out because critics of body cams are quickly labelled conspiracy theorists, but it's important to be aware that this kind of thing isn't a theory, it is already happening.
A couple of things:
as a country develops its standards gradually improve. You cannot expect China to have the same standards as we do today. They will get there. Just like people in this country worked 16hr days in mines in horrendous conditions. But as our wealth increased we were able to evolve.
monitoring software, well that exists here in Australia and is used in exactly the same way. Read your organisation’s IT policy. This is not a ‘China’ issue.
China doesn't lack standards, they lack a moral compass. I don't give them a free pass just because they are 'developing'. I can expect China to have the same standards as we do today because they live in the same year we do. They don't lack wealth, education, or technology.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-city-probing-byd…
The company said in the post it had taken measures to improve the impact of its emission on some residential areas next to the plant. It added, however, that it had filed police reports over the complaints about nosebleeds, saying these were groundless and malicious.
What do you think it means to file a police report against a poor local resident who dares to complain, when you are a millionaire in a corrupt country? They are sending their attack dogs to harass the locals.
Don't defend these scum.
@greatlamp: Lack a moral compass?
How about full time workers at Walmart needing to rely on food stamps to survive because they don’t pay a living wage or needing to work around a dead colleagues body or needing to piss in a bottle so you don’t miss your draconian amazon targets.
How about police arrests and corporations surveillance of indigenous populations because the corporation wants to build a pipeline through their land?
I don’t defend these scum either. My comment was based on facts, yours on an emotional response to ‘China’.
There are still people alive today who were part of the stolen generation, but there are many in our communities including the politicians currently in power who are apologists for those previous actions and refuse to take active steps to right a wrong.
But again, it’s easy to attack ‘China’ because they are different while accepting our behaviours. A bit of self reflection goes a long way.
@Vote for Pedro: How Walmart and Amazon treats their employees is disgusting. It isn't less disgusting because it happens in China- they should be held to the same standards.
That was my point, and I am not going to shy away from it because I am not allowed to criticise countries that are 'different'. It seems you agree they aren't that different. I am not attacking China based on emotions, maybe your defence of China is based on emotions?
If your response was based on facts then so was mine.
@greatlamp: You cannot reasonably expect developing nations to have the same living standards, conditions of employment, environmental consciousness and other factors compared to developed nations that have had since the industrial revolution to get to where we are.
The most appalling fact comes from so called ‘developed’ nations acting without a social conscious or morals. That’s in no way condoning or defending actions of developing nations, rather acknowledgement that we’ve been there, done that (and still continuing to do so in some circumstances) and now others are going through that development journey.
You cannot reasonably expect developing nations to have the same living standards, conditions of employment, environmental consciousness and other factors compared to developed nations that have had since the industrial revolution to get to where we are.
Yes I understand your point. This is not a fact. Culture and technology do not develop hand in hand. I do not give China a free pass, they are NOT poor, they do NOT lack wealth, and they do NOT lack education. They aren't going to just get better with time - just because.
Just because some economist made the connection between Chimney sweeps in Victorian England and child labourers in some third world country does not make it a law.
At what stage in Australia's economic development did we harvest organs from prisoners or run down protesters with tanks?
@greatlamp: We stopped stealing kids from parents in the 1970’s and in Canada this lasted until the 90’s. What’s worse mass graves of indigenous children were found on church grounds.
Segregation only ended in 1964 in the USA and took a generation to implement with many pockets of resistance to this day.
Lynchings of the black population only ended in the 60’s
@greatlamp: Absolutely not.
But we need to remember China’s economic transformation started in 1978 compared to the UK, Europe and USA which started with the industrial revolution in 1760’s.
So we shouldn’t be hypocritical and we should understand how economic and social development transitions between undeveloped and developed. It’s not a light switch that you turn on and expect it to be instant.
We’ve had 260 years to transition from an hand based manufacturing and farming process to where we are today. With that comes all of progressive improvements to social and moral standards. Yet it took us until the 70’s to stop stealing kids from families in Australia and the 90’s in Canada.
@Vote for Pedro: It is also 2022 in China, just like it is in the west. China has advanced technology just like in the west.
It's not hypocritical to expect the same standard of morality from all prople.
China is not a backwards third world country. They don't deserve to be coddled and appeased.
Social and moral standards are not driven by economics. They are driven by cultural change.
You keep throwing around your logical fallacies like your point is self evident, but your points (that the west is also responsible for many moral failings) only supports my point - that technology and economic development has no connection to cultural standard of morality.
@greatlamp: Today, police resources in Canada and the USA are being used to arrest indigenous land owners for protesting a private corporations pipeline through their land. Hows that for a moral compass for us developed nations?
In Australia we continue to refuse to change our constitution to recognise indigenous Australians. This land was not terra nullius.
We invaded a country on fake intelligence results in the deaths of 550,000 people.
We fail to act on climate change despite being the most advanced nations in the world.
We do deals with extremist regimes for oil and turn a blind eye to their terrors.
Morals morals morals. Perhaps only when it suits.
@greatlamp: You believe so strongly in your position you should do something in your own backyard before criticising others.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Something tells me you don’t actually care about the issues, rather it’s about the subject of your ‘concerns about morals’
@Vote for Pedro: Stop crying hypocrisy and address the point. I am not going to answer you anymore, you aren't being honest
@greatlamp: Typical right wing snowflake. Attacks others relentlessly then cries when you shine a light on their behaviour.
Or, even worse than a right winger, you could be a green. Actually that smells closer. A tree tory.
@Vote for Pedro: pathetic.
You don't even know what to accuse me of. Did you have fun looking through my post history?
Why can't you just admit you made a mistake defending China? There's no shame in making a mistake. Or at least bow out, instead you only care about having the last word and being 'right'.
I don't have to play your game. You are wrong. You are just too much of a weasel to admit it.
@greatlamp: Yet here you are. Continuing to attack China (which I agree with) but failing to condemn our own appalling behaviours.
You say it’s 2022 and China has no excuse. What’s our excuse then?
I guess there’s possibly a hint of xenophobia at play.
@Vote for Pedro: My point is not made less valid by behaviours of other countries.
You are only saying that so you can 'prove me wrong'. That is not a logical argument, it is a strawman.
There is no xenophobia. I suspect you are ethnic Chinese and feel the need to defend China. I attack Chinese culture within China.
I have no issues with Chinese people in Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore or any other country.
Don't accuse me of racism, another weasel argument.
@greatlamp: You literally have zero capacity to reflect on your (our) own behaviour so you justify that by attacking the ‘scary other’.
Elon Musk, Apple and many western organisations have production based in China using your despised 996. Yet silence from you.
Remember, it took us a long time to shift to an 8hr work day where previously we were doing 16hr days and using child labour.
I suspect you are ethnic Chinese and feel the need to defend China
True colours coming out. You try to diminish my argument on the basis of ethnicity. Sad. Incredibly sad on your part. This absolutely fits into the narrative that you are either right wing or a tree tory (greens).
For the record, I’m from Western Europe and have lived in Australia probably longer than you’ve been alive.
You try to diminish my argument on the basis of ethnicity.
You literally just accused ME of racism you weasel. I am trying to understand why someone would be an apologist for the CCP. I understand now you are only interested in feeling like you win an internet argument. You don't care about anyone or anything except yourself.
Keep throwing mud my way, keep trying to say my point is invalid with whataboutism. That is your game.
@greatlamp: I accuse you of racism and you then try to diminish my argument based on race.
Where have I heard that one before from the racists, bigots and xenophobes? Oh right yes ‘Stolen generations happened so long ago, why can’t they get over it’.
I guess I’m the problem and that’s a win for you.
ITT: OP not knowing that they are being filmed at retail stores
We are tracked everywhere, one more video doesn't make a difference.
Lol management doesn't even want to pay for regular security. And they are pretty much recording staff if they have bodycams, which sounds awful. Imagine a performance review where they can pull up clips of how you talk to customers.
It actually amazes me that it's come to this.
I heard something on the radio about Target being the first to try it.
Which low life, bottom barrel pleb is attacking retail staff in the first place?
What do you even attack them for? I've not once had to resort to this behaviour.
You're a real piece of shit if you have to attack someone who is providing you a service.
You'll find the worst dregs in life come out to abuse and belittle people given the lack of consequences. They're quite indignant and furious if they're treated as they should be by staff. Physical threats aren't uncommon but most experienced staff members simply don't lower themselves into situations where this can occur.
Also, despite danger and abuse, there's always shut-ins and losers that come in and to start arguments/get validation for their stupid beliefs because they have no one to listen to them outside of work. I can't count the amount of people who've tried to start arguments about masks/vaccines etc completely unprovoked.
Majority of retail work is solving problems for people, the minority is problem people - and they stick in your mind for a long time.
Understand where they are coming from with this move. The need for this really is sad and says a lot about where society is headed. Speculation would be things like cuts to education, housing prices (LNP policy), etc.
I think we're all aware that we are monitored on CCTV to a degree when shopping. Personally, I hate the retailers putting it in our face so overtly. I also really hate Woolworths checkouts showing the front camera output.
I think this will likely push more people toward online shopping and be another blow to retail.
No issues with it at all.
There is a lack of respect in our society.
One only has to drive around and see the vandalism of liberal propaganda in my neighbourhood, the disrespect of teachers, nurses etc.
It was probably moreso angry men in the past but far out, women are becoming angrier by the minute.
Wait until people start going broke over the next couple of years.
What if it was you that was wearing it during your work day? Consider this, what makes you think people will actually be more respectful if they're on camera in all retail settings? We see videos of people acting inappropriately all the time. I watch and listen to people in stores, act and speak in a way that I find morally wrong all the time. They know I'm there. I don't think recording interactions all the time, will create a more positive interaction for most. It just depends if they're motivated to be nicer by being watched. Not everyone cares about that and it won't change behaviours of the many.
I never claimed it would improve behaviour.
If it doesn't improve behaviour then it's not a deterrent. And without that it's useless imo. But do tell, would you be happy to wear one through a full workday, every shift?
@cookie2: I never claimed it wouldn't improve behaviour
Bac tests do not stop drink driving.
As for the qn as to would I wear one, well I have to wear a face mask every day at work so I guess it would be far less of an inconvenience than that.
You sound like one of the reasons why a bodycam is required in the first place lol
I quit my retail job during the end of covid lockdowns because i simply couldn't handle the customers anymore, was losing sleep and being constantly on edge and anxiety went through the roof to new levels i didn't even know existed.
I saw this post and immediately thought it would be an amazing idea i would have signed up to in a heartbeat, but thinking about it more, it's not going to be able to stop anything more than current practices.
These people are still going to get up in your face and cause trouble except now you'll have video footage of it which of course will be useless to the police because they dont stick around for 30 mins, you're still not able to fight back or detain, and they're certainly not going to let you put it on youtube to cancel someone, the footage will be largely useless just like current security tech and just act as a deterrent which already isn't stopping people.
If it was implemented in conjunction with much tougher penalties and giving security guards some actual rights to stop and detain these people then it would make sense, but right now i feel like it would make me feel just as powerless as before, if not more because now i have proof of things not getting done.
Im ok with it as long as it isnt abused by the employer to harass the employee.
Truth is retail customers in Australia are way more rude than other countries. There are a lot of degenerate feral people out there that take out their days frustrations on the poor retail worker.
I wonder what is the cause though? Do shopkeepers in other countries just beat the ferals with baseball bats? There certainly aren't any consequences to abusing staff here.
Yes, especially those entitled centrelink junkies that spazs out and steal in dollar shops or supermarkets.
hey can i price match this?
no
but your marketing clearly states you will price match anything! can you turn your body cam on to confirm that you are advertising misleading facts
no
I'm worried that these body cams will just lead to more workers being injured as turning it on would be obvious, but even if you haven't turned them on someone may assume you have. The people being abusive or threatening already aren't thinking clearly. They can easily forget or ignore the cameras on the ceiling, but having one directly in their face will piss them off more. There'd be a higher chance of someone screaming abuse turning to physical violence.
Some would try to grab the body cams and destroy them, potentially hurting the wearer in the process. Other, calmer full-time arseholes may actually walk away, but then get revenge on the worker later when there are no cameras recording.
It's not that uncommon for people to leave work and find their vehicle damaged by some "customer" who's gotten pissed off that day. Reporting incidents to the cops isn't even safe, as once they've been visited by a cop, the abusive person might come back later and hurt the person that reported them, or even someone they just think reported them.
And then there's the other issue. It'll start out as them just being for safety with the wearer being in control of when it records. But many employers would love to change that to always recording so that they can watch everything someone does and discipline them for daring to pause in their work for a second, or for chatting to coworkers while working.
Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is. Everyone says full time security guards, but the truth is that everyone knows they can't really do anything even if something is happening in front of them. At the moment, the safest option (though shitty) is for workers to follow deescalation training, let thieves go / give screamers what they want / sympathise if that's not possible. If a "customer" is screaming about something they want not being available, sympathise, try find it elsewhere and give them something else for free if it will get them to leave.
If it comes down to it, try to walk away and hide elsewhere. Hell, have every staff member just walk out and leave the abusive person to do what they want alone. Only works of course if that person doesn't follow you. No guarantee of that.
Unless every store has security the entire time someone is in the store, and that security is legally able to actually take action against someone being abusive, with no chance of store or individual being sued, nothing is going to change. And of course, even that just foists the problem onto someone else to deal with.
Presumably customers are free to do likewise? Protection should go both ways.
Police wear body cams I believe, and don't seem to like it when the public record them.
It's a bit like businesses recording calls. I might be ok with that if they provided a copy to me (and let's be clear it has nothing to do with training).
Further indication of the decline of western civilisation
If it makes staff feel safer and not have to deal with POS customers as much then I'm fine with it.
Ah, yet more infringements of our personal freedoms all in the name of "SAFETY" (derp). If you agree with this kind of thing (perpetually being spied upon because of a non-existent threat), I feel sorry for you. You're path3tic.Grow up.
found the guy abusing Target staff!
I'm curious, what personal freedoms do you think you're losing when retail employees have the ability to record customer interactions?
His personal freedom to be an asshat
Ah yes, Booker De Witt, matyr of the vox populi….. :P
Should be used by the employee to document shitty interactions with managers.
That'll be the day.
Now that i would definitely get behind.
I managed loss prevention for a very large retail chain, if you are upset about being recorded pay more attention to the amount of cameras in a store. The chain I worked in averaged about 70-80 cameras per store, you couldn't pick your nose without being on camera. With 400+ stores we were recording thousands of hours of footage per hour.
I do feel sorry for some retail staff. Especially security rent-a-guards and COVID marshalls. They put up with so much crap. Last week I watched a KMart guard be chewed out and threatened with lawsuits because he asked the customer to empty his pockets because the security gate kept going off. Yes, it's not much fun to be accused of theft, but there's a normal and rational way to deal with it without resorting to shouting and threats.
A friend of mine was threatened with physical violence after my friend raised the price of petrol at a Coles Express store. What do people think, that the employees raise the price for lols just to spite customers?
I don't think it's fair for the staff because it will end up being used by the employers to check on their staff every minute.
I'd prefer they have their privacy and keep cameras in the store to record incidents with customers.
Where will they stop.. everything these days is recorded.
The more people say yes to these things the further it will go.
Eventually you won't be able to a sh!t without getting it recorded.
I'd support it, not just for retail but most face to face service/hospitality sectors too. Equip them with cattle prods as well while they're at it.
My partner works as a manager in one of these areas and the amount of mouth breathers with no lives that come in and verbally abuse(and frequently physically attack) staff over the most minuscule things is insane. Doesn't matter if it's an old person or a teenager in front of them and this seems to have gotten more worse after the pandemic, with the additional hostility driving people away from these sectors and creating staffing shortages adding more stress and workloads on remaining workers.
Just because i've never seen it, doesn't make it true obviously…
But wtf are retail staff really being abused more than before? Why?? Surely now that the Great Toilet Paper Wars and the Epic RAT Shortages are over, it has mostly stopped?
Retail staff have always been targets for abuse, experienced it first hand many times e.g. when I had to refuse the return of a special order (something custom made purchased for a wedding, they were warned it was non returnable due to special order and a colour no one else would want when ordering), soon as wedding was over they conveniently decided they didn't like the colour and the amount of abuse because I was violating their consumer rights and they were going to go to ACA and I had better watch over my shoulder when walking at night blah blah blah. I only worked in my parents business part time and I personally had at least half a dozen incidents and I know my parents had many many more. has it got worse? would not Suprise me with the entitlement attitude many have now, but even if not worse it was always pretty bad.
A few years back at work we had a presenter at a workshop who went to the toilet next door But forgot to switch the bluetooth mic off, and well, lets just say we heard the shit drop in our meeting room as well as a few more things..
I would have thought with the huge costs associated with such body cams it would simply be cheaper to install more thorough high-definition CCTV with audio throughout the stores. i.e. the casino style of setup.
Don't abuse retail staff and you'll be fine. One of the conditions of entry into a retail space is that you may be recorded.
Do you think the abuse in this case would be coming from the employer by monitoring each and every movement of the staff member? eg not only interaction with customer, but interaction with other staff and then lunch breaks, toilet breaks, cigarette breaks, walking too slow, unpacking too slow…. many reasons there for dismissal over piddly diddly squat
You really think that a store with 40 staff working at any one time is going to employ 40 staff to watch the workers camera footage in real time?
Also "lunch breaks, toilet breaks, cigarette breaks, walking too slow, unpacking too slow" those are already able to be seen with current CCTV.
No problem with me if that put an end or minimise karen dramas
Hopefully a Youtube channel like Dash Cam Australia but with Karens
Do people still go into stores?
Yeah for sure! to try on shoes before ordering them online!
yep, anytime you need something instantly or to have a look at or try something on before buying online.
Yes, still seems to be rather popular. I'm sure Woolworths and Coles would like nothing more than to close all their retail spaces and fire all the staff, but that isn't happening.
Woulda loved this all the years I worked retail, it's not just the abusive customers it's the one who claim to corporate that "They said this" and corporate not just bowing down to those people but punishing you even know you did nothing wrong.
As long as it's not a cover story for them snooping on employees and customers all the time…
Sorry but I can envisage big employers willingly outlaying all that money to equip staff with body cams. If they do, probably half of them would have left off the charge overnight and flat the next morning for the shift and the other half broken or lost. And from my experience in retail, managers will use the cams to spy on staff rather than the intended purpose.
Good. I can however imagine companies will use it to nitpick staff they don't like though.
I guess I'll go back to wearing face masks in shops.