Full Time Working Rules - Warehouse

oxonomo on 31/03/2022 - 18:15

I would like some help!

I received a Full Time job offer and the letter says:

  • "You shall work an average of 42.5 hours a week, averaged over successive 26-week periods." But as far as I know it is normally 38 hours per week. Is this allowed by law?

  • In another part of the letter it says: "Hours: 06:00am - 03:00pm (includes ½ hr unpaid lunch break)". Normally the working hours would be from 06:00am to 02:06pm?

  • The part that I don't understand the most is this: "All overtime rate over 38 hours and early morning shift is already included in your salary package as listed in the Letter of Employment" Does this mean that all the extra hours that I do will not be paid? That's absurd!

Can someone help me to understand this better, please?

Tks!

Education & Work

Comments

  • brokenglish on 31/03/2022 - 18:23
    +19

    No, you understood it alright. It’s pretty clear. They even told you that they will not be paying you overtime. If you do not agree with their terms, don’t work there 😂
    They are not forcing you to take the offer.

    • AustriaBargain on 31/03/2022 - 23:13
      +1

      Or effectively 4.5 hours of overtime per week is being paid, which puts his standard effective hourly pay even lower than he thought it was.

    • AndyC1 on 31/03/2022 - 19:23
      +18

      Don't you mean another candidate they can screw over by NOT paying for 5 hours per week.

      • tsunamisurfer on 31/03/2022 - 22:14
        +1

        They haven't screwed anyone over.

        They have been open with the terms of engagement.

        The OP is no worse off by not taking up the offer.

        • Vote for Pedro on 16/04/2022 - 23:18
          +1

          Just because an employer is ‘open’ with their offer does not make it legal.

  • brendanm on 31/03/2022 - 18:24
    +9

    You will be paid the overtime hours, they will just be at the ordinary rate of pay. They get away with the "already included in your salary package" thing, as they are paying above award rate.

    If you don't like it, don't do it. I certainly wouldn't be working overtime for standard pay.

    • bweiss on 01/04/2022 - 08:37

      According to the terms as written they would NOT receive any extra pay (i.e. $0/hr) for any overtime.

      It seems shit, I would:
      a) decline the roll
      b) report to fair work, there cannot be the expections of normal time work being >38hrs per week average. There can be an expectation of overtime, and the rate (inclusive of expected overtime) must be >= award rate.

      Their first condition appears to exempt you from taking any leave (whether paid/unpaid/annual/sick) unless you do significantly above 42.5hrs per week also.

      • brendanm on 01/04/2022 - 09:52

        Have to say that you haven't read any of the terms correctly.

        • bweiss on 04/04/2022 - 20:12

          How do you equate this:
          "All overtime rate over 38 hours and early morning shift is already included in your salary package as listed in the Letter of Employment"

          With meaning they would get paid for overtime?

          • brendanm on 04/04/2022 - 20:17
            -1

            @bweiss: "overtime rate"

            So you are getting paid overtime, just at the standard rate.

            • bweiss on 13/04/2022 - 23:00

              @brendanm: Having had a contract worded almost exactly as the OP.. this is not the case.
              What the company means (by the bad wording) is that you do NOT get paid overtime (all hours above 38hr is your charity to the company).
              It is considered 'reasonable' that your fixed salary is full remuneration for all hours worked.
              Any overtime that you perform is included within your already agreed salary.

              You could potentially argue that the wording is wrong and misleading, but I doubt a court would agree in this situation, even if the onus is on the contract author to get the wording right, there's not a sufficiently plausible alternative understanding for the overall document intent to make that a worthwhile challenge.

              Your claim (that hours over 38 are paid extra) makes no sense when the average hours are 42.5hrs (and overtime hours are those hours above 38hrs/week).
              The simultaneous equations to solve for overtime pay is simple… (A= normal time pay/hr, B=overtime pay/hr)
              38A = $XXXX
              38              A + 4.5*B = $XXXX
              Hence B = $0, you will get paid $0/hr for all overtime (all hours beyond 38hrs).

  • Drakesy on 31/03/2022 - 18:25
    +3

    so your pay is 42.5 hours a week.
    That means you'll need to work an average of 42.5 hours a week, some weeks more, some weeks less.

    6:00am-3:00pm will be your work day, in theory you could skip lunch and work until 6:00am-2:30pm (8.5 hour days - 42.5 hour weeks)

    It's up to you if you want to take it, personally i'd wait for a 40 hour or 37.5 hour week. Losing an additional 2.5 hours a week adds up.

    And sounds like they want to do a shifty one by saying expected overtime is already incorporated into you base hourly rate. I'd call them out on this and tell them to take a hike.

    It's your call, but these terms are really rough tbh. Shortage of labour right now means employees are in the bargaining seat.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 31/03/2022 - 18:29
      +3

      There won't be a true hourly rate. "Salary package".

    • SBOB on 31/03/2022 - 18:32
      +4

      in theory you could skip lunch and work until 6:00am-2:30pm

      Not if they've stipulated the working hours as there may well be warehouse work requirements that need attention between 2:30 and 3:00pm

  • orangetrain on 31/03/2022 - 18:29
    +7

    Calculate your salary by dividing it by hours worked. If less than the industry award or enterprise agreement, then they are going to illegally underpay you.

    I would calculate salary / commute time + work hours + lunch hours to determine how much it is per hour and compare with other jobs. Your loyalty and time should only be available to the highest bidder.

    That said, you can also negotiate with them or walk.

    • Kangal on 31/03/2022 - 22:11
      +4

      ^This.

      However, the commute time is only relevant to OP in their private assessment. Don't bring it up to the employer or Fairwork. But I would absolutely send a copy of that contract to the relevant Union Body and to Fairwork if you discovered that they are paying you below the Award. Heck, it is good practice to share with them even if it is AT the minimum, because you know they will be more demanding. I say this because I learned my lesson a little too late; your time, expertise, and value are not a plaything for others.

    • TheOtherLeft on 01/04/2022 - 08:37
      +1

      Commute time is irrelevant in the hourly rate calculation.

      • trankillity on 01/04/2022 - 09:12
        +4

        But not for the "is it worth working for them" calculation. Too many times people forget to calculate their own free time into roles.

  • SBOB on 31/03/2022 - 18:30
    +5

    But as far as I know it is normally 38 hours per week. Is this allowed by law?

    100 percent allowed.
    38 hours is a 'standard' working week but many industries do more.

    They have clearly spelled it out, the expected working hours and the salary you will get for those 42.5hrs. assuming the hrly rate is above aware minimum there is nothing 'wrong' with their salary or wording.

    There's plenty of dodgy employers out there that would be much less clear about employment terms.

    Youre either happy with the working hours and salary, or aren't.

    Does this mean that all the extra hours that I do will not be paid? That's absurd!

    It means hours up to and including the 42.5 he average are included in the salary $ they have told you. You're being paid for those, and any award early hour allowances (if applicable), within the total they have quoted you.

  • holdenmg on 31/03/2022 - 18:40
    +2

    You can look at Storage Services and Wholesale Award [MA000084] or contact https://www.fairwork.gov.au/about-us/contact-us

  • garetz on 31/03/2022 - 18:41
    +6

    Sounds like a garbage job, don't like it, don't take it, i sure wouldnt.

    • pharkurnell on 31/03/2022 - 19:10
      +3

      it depends how much you need the money… take it until something better shows up

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 31/03/2022 - 19:18

      What if the salary is 120k?

      • holdenmg on 31/03/2022 - 19:23

        Well, you could get someone from Airtasker to do your job… lol

      • garetz on 31/03/2022 - 20:04
        +2

        if it was such a high paying job, then there wouldnt be a 42.5 hour work week

        show me any warehouse job that pay anywhere near that.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 31/03/2022 - 20:11
          -4

          https://www.seek.com.au/job/56386402?type=standout#sol=4a666…
          https://www.seek.com.au/job/56374439?type=standout#sol=b1e17…

          5 seconds on Seek gave me those 2. Don't really understand your point of view tbh.

          • garetz on 31/03/2022 - 20:50
            +4

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: So they are paying 120k ?

            Warehouse and Operations Manager and Warehouse and Distribution Supervisor not a warehouse worker

            a warehouse worker is not what you think it is

          • SnoozeAndLose on 31/03/2022 - 22:22

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Doesn't say it is 120K. warehouse managers just walks around in the warehouse, they don't do any warehouse worker's work.

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 01/04/2022 - 09:53
              -1

              @SnoozeAndLose: Where does it say what OPs job title is? Most shitkicker warehouse workers aren't on salary. They are paid hourly.

              None of those jobs appear if you set the options to under 120k.

              • tonyjzx on 01/04/2022 - 11:17

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: yeah this

                if it was a manager supervisior type role OP wouldnt even bother posting here because he'd be smart enough to work out there's swings and roundabouts on a high salaried long hour unlimited overtime position

                what the above job sounds to me is like the multitude of salaried high paid white collar jobs where you are expected to do 50hrs a week but you are paid $100k or more a year.

                So you make your deal with the devil before you sign.

  • El cheepo on 31/03/2022 - 23:34
    -2

    Its just a wordy way of saying you’ll do a bit of overtime every day on your usual rate (so effectively losing almost an hour (0.9hours) of ot pay per day (so working an extra 30-54 mins per day as a standard and then losing 30 mins worth of pay))

    Assuming as a Wharehouse worker your on $25ph you stand to lose $62.50 a week because of the contracted ot.

    Not the end of the world, but annoying.

    Personally I’d never do a salaried job in that industry as it will frequently blow out into more overtime (depending on the company)

    • tonyjzx on 01/04/2022 - 02:32
      +5

      giant fokken red flag

      its rare for a std. warehouse worker to be on salary given you're missing out on a whole raft of shit that makes blue collar work worth it

      • El cheepo on 01/04/2022 - 12:10

        Agreed, thats why I wouldn’t personally do it.

        But in saying that it depends on the Wharehouse work… for example
        - transport
        no chance in hell, work loads fluctuate and additional ot is expected, so a salary is a joke.

        Just a storeman type role at a wharehouse with fixed opening/closing hours might be worth considering depending on the pay.
        Pay Example: again assuming the normal rate for that role is $25ph but the employer want what the ops role is advertising.
        If they are paying $26.50, the ot is in-fact included, so assuming no additional OT is required thats fine imo.
        The only thing i would be concerned about is will holiday pay be paid at 7.6hour days or 8.5?

  • 82norm on 01/04/2022 - 08:20
    -1

    Take the job, if hours become unbearable or you feel you’re getting ripped off, then resign. Who knows, the extra hours maybe ok, the people you work with may be great, the environment, conditions etc. If you work at a place that is conducive, ‘fun’, stress free, that alone can be worth more than some monetary loss. Need to flexible, it’s about giving and taking. Don’t get ripped off and exploited by all means, but I’m a firm believer that hard work, good attitude pays off over time. Who knows the company maybe pretty good.

  • RMBC on 01/04/2022 - 08:51
    +1

    This is very common in employment contracts where your conditions, primarily pay, are above award conditions (if they aren't, it's illegal).

    In essence, you are agreeing to terms that are above and beyond the award in exchange for extra services provided.

    If you have concerns, the first port of call would be the potential employer to raise with them. This doesn't raise any flags from the information provided, however as always, you need to be comfortable and understand anything you're signing.

  • Thrifty1 on 01/04/2022 - 10:12

    The part that I don't understand the most is this: "All overtime rate over 38 hours and early morning shift is already included in your salary package as listed in the Letter of Employment"
    I read this as you are paid overtime, it's already been calculated into the salary package on offer

    • tonyjzx on 01/04/2022 - 11:14

      yeah this makes sense if you're on $100k… but then they're expecting you do to unlimited overtime… and the fact you're already committed to 42hrs…

  • MontyMacaw on 01/04/2022 - 10:30

    As long as they pay at least minimum wage all the fancy wording in the world won’t change much. Maybe look into RDO’s though. That might spook them.

  • Hirolol on 01/04/2022 - 11:11

    The worst part about this is, if you don’t take the job, someone else will.
    good luck in your job hunting and hopefully you find something better.

  • Chandler on 01/04/2022 - 11:25

    https://www.fairwork.gov.au/tools-and-resources/fact-sheets/…

    What are the maximum weekly hours of work?

    An employer must not request or require an employee to work more than the following hours of work in a week, unless the additional hours are reasonable:

    • for a full-time employee, 38 hours or
    • for an employee other than a full-time employee, the lesser of:
      • 38 hours
      • the employee’s ordinary hours of work in a week.

    The hours an employee works in a week must be taken to include any hours of leave or absence (paid or unpaid) that is authorised:

    • by the employer or
    • by or under a term of the employee’s employment or
    • by or under a Commonwealth, State or Territory law, or an instrument in force under such a law.

    An employee may refuse to work additional hours if they are unreasonable.

    And then under averaging arrangements;

    Example

    The award regulating Malcolm’s employment includes averaging arrangements in relation to hours of work, so that full-time employees would ordinarily work 152 hours over four weeks (an average of 38 hours per week). Over a four week period, Malcolm’s work pattern is as follows:

    • Week 1 – worked 21 hours
    • Week 2 – worked 60 hours
    • Week 3 – worked 38 hours
    • Week 4 – worked 33 hours

    The averaging arrangement would be relevant in determining the reasonableness of the additional 22 hours that Malcolm was required to work in Week 2. Other factors such as Malcolm’s family responsibilities, his health and safety, and the notice he was given of having to work the additional 22 hours would also be relevant.

    As usual, they don't actually say whether the 60-hours worked in week 2 are reasonable or not :/

    See also my comment here

  • Jugganautx on 01/04/2022 - 14:06
    +2

    Working unpaid overtime as a salary employee? Gee wiz. Neveeeeeer.

    • MontyMacaw on 01/04/2022 - 20:07
      +1

      A lot of big companies have been hammered for this as it sometimes drops the employee’s pay below the minimum wage among other things. Just because they have been getting away with doesn’t make it legal.

  • cupcake on 01/04/2022 - 15:59
    +1

    Please see an accredited specialist in employment law before you even sign any employment contract. Let me know if you need one.
    I wouldn't agree to a yearly fixed salary and then be expected to do hours and hours of overtime and not be paid for it.
    If you work a full day, you should also get an hour for lunch break each day, even if unpaid. That's too long a work day as it is.
    Ask if you can be paid for overtime, time and a half at least.

    We have a family friend who was a warehouse manager for 30 years and he made very good money doing overtime.
    In his retirement now and he has two homes, and plenty of superannuation so he isn't even on the age pension.

    I would decline signing that employment contract if I were you!
    38 hours a week plus unpaid lunch breaks. The salary should be for that only. Not including overtime. I would renegotiate with your employer and ask for overtime pay.

  • freefall101 on 02/04/2022 - 16:15
    +1

    "You shall work an average of 42.5 hours a week, averaged over successive 26-week periods." But as far as I know it is normally 38 hours per week. Is this allowed by law?

    Yes, it's allowed, by signing the contract you are agreeing to work overtime on an ongoing basis.

    The averaging over 26 weeks is sketchy, by award that should be 4 weeks. If you find yourself working a lot over short bursts (like Christmas) you should get paid more overtime than this agreement suggests.

    In another part of the letter it says: "Hours: 06:00am - 03:00pm (includes ½ hr unpaid lunch break)". Normally the working hours would be from 06:00am to 02:06pm?

    Yup, you'd be working .9 hours (54 minutes) of overtime a day.

    The part that I don't understand the most is this: "All overtime rate over 38 hours and early morning shift is already included in your salary package as listed in the Letter of Employment" Does this mean that all the extra hours that I do will not be paid? That's absurd!

    They're allowed to do it, so long as you're being paid above the award rate (also check if the company has a site agreement via google). But it sounds like the salary you're being paid is for the 42.5 hours you agreed to in the contract.

    For example, a Storeworker Grade 2 is $853.50 per week for 38 hours, plus 4.5 hours at time and a half ($33.69 an hour) is $151.51, so the minimum they can pay you is $1,005.01. Assuming they offered a "salary package" of at least $52,300 a year then they're fine, this is all allowable, because it's all agreed up front. Any additional overtime they would have to pay you.

    It's just a way of pumping up their numbers, much like employers put a "salary package" inclusive of super (usually to help game job search boards that put salary ranges). It looks better than it really is. If this job sounded too good to be true in terms of salary package, then yeah, it probably is and you're working for it.

    Early morning shift is interesting, I thought it was already part of the award (it's meant to be before 7am is early morning but by agreement they can shift that back to 6am).

    You should be asking your potential employer these questions though, not us, while I'm saying what is allowed under the agreement they may actually be paying overtime, I haven't read your whole contract. But your interpretation of those few phrases is legal for them to do.

  • Vote for Pedro on 16/04/2022 - 23:16

    Get in touch with your union. They will be able to advise if there is an award/agreement in place and whether the offer of employment is legal.

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