Forced to Buy a Burnt-down Property

Hi all,

I am new and joined because I am in a bit of trouble.

I bought a house, and I thought I was lucky enough to win the auction.

However, two weeks after the auction, before the settlement date, the owner had an accident in the kitchen and burnt down almost the entire kitchen. All the cabinets, some walls, and some part of the roof. There is basically a hole on the roof and signs of smokes everywhere. Walls between the kitchen and living room is half gone, the window is broken, and water damage from the fire engine is on every part of floorings and walls. The damage so extensive they moved out straight away.

Now, here is my problem starts.
I then called the real estate agent to cancel the deal. They said they will try their best, calling the owner and see what they can do.
The agent said the owner didn't answer their phone and told me to call my solicitor.

I called my solicitor to cancel the deal obviously.
Here is what he said:
Have you got building insurance? I said no of course, because I haven't settled on it.
My lawyer said the once I won an auction, it is my property, and I have to settle on it, no matter what.
I said, what the F, BS is this??? It is obvious to me that the house is not at all in the same condition it was when it is sold to me. My lawyer said he need to discuss with his colleagues for whatever other legal avenue available. Worse come to worse, he said I lost my 10% deposit. However he also said that if the house then sold at lower price (which is 100% definitely), I may have to pay for the difference. I said again all the swear words known to me. This could costs me hundreds of thousands, plus I can't live there, what am I gonna do with this?

I don't know yet if the owner has building insurance, or if their insurance companies can pay me out.

Sorry for all the rambling, but I just can't.

Edit: 11:41am
Seller's solicitor told mine that the owner have insurance. However it is unclear what will. happen after. I'm a little relieved now.

Edit 11:53 AM:
It seems that the seller meant was content insurance, not building insurance, however it still isn't very clear, and they seek clarification.

Edit 12:05 AM:
Apparently police is investigating this because it involves significant material damage.
Idk what this mean to me tbh.

Edit 2:57 PM:
They definitely have building insurance. However I think perhaps it is still best to back out of the sale, let them deal with the payout and sell it to someone else who can rebuild it. Otherwise, it can be messy for me waiting for them to sort their insurance and transfer the payout to me.

Edit 23/03 3:19 PM:
Vendor's solicitor seems to hold on to the 'unconditional' rule. My instruction to the lawyer is clear, do not settle no matter what. I have told the bank's lender too, and they don't seem to know what to do? I don't know what the vendor want, my solicitor thinks it could be that they want to hold on to insurance payout and full payment too. My solicitor thinks it may gone down to court, but i am more likely to win. I hope this doesn't go on too long, I need a place to live…

Comments

      • Sorry for late response, once you exchange contracts (pre-settlement) you now have an insurable 'interest' in the property and therefore can purchase insurance on that property.

        This is to protect yourself in situations just as the OP describes.

        Usually you would do this for properties where the land itself valuable, i.e. strong potential for capital appreciation, tightly held suburb, re-zoning potential, urban taskforce growth corridors etc. Except you do not want to carry the risk of loss of the building should it go up in flames prior to settlement.

  • +2

    I don't think people are being fair to your lawyer here, especially when you have a number of other lawyers telling you the same thing. The lawyer is there to help you with the contract, not give you insurance advice, unless it's something you explicitly asked for.

    When you go to auction and win, you now have an interest in the property, even if you haven't settled yet. This is why you consider taking out insurance on the property. The advice is actually pretty consistent online.

    https://www.suncorp.com.au/learn-about/buying-a-home/insuran….
    https://www.gio.com.au/know-more/insuring-your-home/home-ins…
    https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/home-contents-insurance/guid…
    https://www.anz.com.au/personal/home-loans/tips-and-guides/s…

    Budget Direct sums it up nicely:

    Despite the insurance requirements by each state, you can still choose to arrange home insurance once the deposit is paid. This is to ensure that your financial interest in your new property is covered appropriately and provides you, the homeowner, with some peace of mind.

    Hope it works out for you.

    • Funny that insurers encourage you to take out insurance even though it's not required

  • -2

    Have you got building insurance? I said no of course, because I haven't settled on it.
    My lawyer said the once I won an auction, it is my property, and I have to settle on it, no matter what.

    Your lawyer is right. Why do you use a lawyer if you don't trust what they say is right?

    When I bought my house recently I negotiated for the removal of that part of the contract as I didn't want to be paying expensive home insurance for a month and a half on a house that I wasn't living in and where the contract hadn't settled precisely because I'd heard stories of people being left with a pile of smouldering ashes where the house was supposed to be. My solicitors changed the contract to reflect that and that if anything were to happen to the property between then and settlement that settlement would not continue and I would not be out of pocket, sent it back and they agreed.

    • +2

      I should clarify that I'm in QLD, where by law as soon as you sign a contract to buy a property you are advised to take out insurance as you are legally required to still purchase said property even if it has burned to the ground.

      Source (and every other law firm in QLD btw): https://www.powerlegal.com.au/happens-house-damaged-settleme…

      In Queensland, standard contract terms generally provide that the risk of loss or damage to a property passes from the vendor to the purchaser at 5.00 pm on the first business day after the date of the contract. It is therefore essential that a purchaser takes out insurance to protect the property and for public risk, from this time.

      Downvoted for being correct, what a world we live in.

      • I know right. Ignorance of the law is not a reason that will be held up in court. Although, the law may be different in NSW than in QLD. Op should get a second opinion from another lawyer to verify that.

      • +1

        I downvoted you because you are wrong with regards to the OP's situation. You were replying to someone asking about a NSW property contract and quoting law which we later found out to be relevant to QLD. With regards to property, the applicable state law is important and you create confusion by quoting law from another state. It is nothing personal.

        • +1

          OP didn't mention what state he was in in the original post.

      • +1

        I didn't down vote you guys, but the OP is in NSW and in NSW, he does have protection under the NSW land sales contract, UNLESS the seller removed them under special conditions and the OP has agreed to it and signed it.

      • Your comment led with this completely incorrect statement.

        Your lawyer is right. Why do you use a lawyer if you don't trust what they say is right?

        That's why you've been downvoted. The OP is not in QLD and QLD law has no relevance to the situation.

        Downvoted for being correct incorrect, what a world we live in.

        • +1

          OP should have said what state he was in in the original post.

          • @MrFunSocks: Yeah they should have ideally but it’s the second comment, 20min after his post.

            Your original downvoted post that you are complaining about didn’t specify the state either.

    • +1

      Just give up. Seems like everyone here believes an auction is no more than a mechanism for negotiating a price. Caveat emptor.

    • +4

      Clause 18.4 of NSW Contract for the sale and purchase of land 2018 edition:

      18.4 The risk as to damage to the property passes to the purchaser immediately after the purchaser enters into possession.

      The OP is in NSW so unless clause 18.4 was struck out in the special conditions, it holds for the OP, they are not on risk until possession which is typically at settlement. Sometimes you can be granted early posession and at that point, you are on risk from that point, which would be prior to settlement.

      This thread is full of people quoting law from other states. Just stop, you are confusing matters.

      • +2

        This is correct. In NSW there is usually a pre-settlement inspection specifically for this purpose.

      • THIS, close thread.

  • +5

    What a horrible scenario to be put in. Hope this gets sorted amicably and fairly in your favour.

  • +1

    Anything you identify prior to final inspection can hold up settlement. Prior to settlement you do not own the property, that's the whole point of settlement. Talk to your settlement agent.

  • +1

    I may get negged for this, but there is a chance your lawyer may be right. From our own experience:

    1. We purchased an investment property in Adelaide (SA). Part of the deal was to let the owner have a late settlement so they can live there for another 2 months. I then asked our buyer agent "what happens if they damage the property in due time?". In which their response was "You are responsible as you own the house after auction". So, we seek house insurance straightaway after auction and purchase house insurance pretty much 3 days after signing the contract.

    2. In saying that, others have mentioned each state may have different laws and rules and you need to dig deep into what are those rules. Get a second opinion from another lawyer to verify. Also, look at the angle of suing the owner of damaging your property. Although if part of the contract you signed allow for a late settlement (or a few weeks whatever it is), then the owner may be allowed to live there in the mean time till settlement date.

    All in all, I know it is frustrating but ranting on Ozbargan won't help. Getting another opinion from a good laywer will. Good luck with it and let us know how you go! :)

    • Part of the deal was to let the owner have a late settlement so they can live there for another 2 months. I then asked our buyer agent "what happens if they damage the property in due time?". In which their response was "You are responsible as you own the house after auction".

      But you do not own the property after auction. Ownership passes at settlement, not at the end of the auction.

      At the end of the auction you have a contract/agreement to buy the property.
      After that you transfer Consideration (a deposit) which is not a requirement in all jurisdictions but is a requirement under common law for the agreement to be binding.
      On settlement the property ownership is transferred.

      Before settlement you could say you have a financial interest in the property (the value of your deposit) however you are not responsible for the house as you do not own it.

  • +3

    hey OP, I need closure!!! What is happening?

    • +21

      Hey mate,

      Since yesterday there is few updates. But thanks to this forum the lawyer now things differently, especially from that 119 thing.

      The vendor though, sure they must be in distress, I feel for them, but it seems that they see trying to force the sale, and even offered discount.

      Thing is, the discount offered is nowhere I think, near the cost to repair. Also I don't want the trouble to repair, and where would I live in the meantime. Etc…

      So yeah still trying to force my ass out of this shit.

      • +17

        OP, send your lawyer an invoice for billable hours from this forum.

      • +6

        Lawyer now thinks differently…. and hopefully suitably embarrassed. This is a very critical and basic thing to be across in property law.

        I wonder if they’re originally from a different state with different rules to NSW?

      • +6

        Whatever you think the cost of repairs is, times it by 3. Materials and trades are hard to get hold of and you don’t really know the extent of the damage.

        This whole situation is absurd. Any reasonable person wouldn’t force the OP to settle, it’s a shame if the law states otherwise.

        • And don't expect it to be done in any time frame shorter than 4-6 months.

          Had solar installed, they did an inspection and took photos of the roof before installing and found the pointing is all cracked and in places that can't be seen from the ground almost completely gone.

          I've called every roofer I can find a number for and they can't even quote on it for months let alone do the job due to their already lined up work. Probably going to just patch the worst parts myself then get it done professionally when possible.

      • That cost of repairs should be getting taken care of by the sellers insurance….

        Don't be afraid to get a second or third quote from other builders, you're aiming for repairs costs exceeding 5% of the sale value (allows the vendor to rescind the contract).

        Hope this works out for you.

        • You would never know where they cheap out on the repair though.

      • +1

        Good idea getting out if you can. I don't think it is possible to really calculate how much monetary loss there is.

        For example while I'm sure you got a great deal on the house at auction, it could have gone for far less if say, it had a massive burnt out kitchen, water damage and a hole in the roof. We also don't really know if there are other structural issues that need fixing before bringing it up to scratch.

      • how disappointing to hear how your solicitor is treating their client - name and shame.
        You are paying them for the service and their first advice was to guide you in the wrong direction that could be avoided. Your solicitor just wanted the case closed and still charge for their service like a normal home purchase.

        Not sure if mentioned already. Could you try to score a new kitchen with the insurer but it's a long shot.

      • 119 thing?

      • +1

        Lawyer has been OZBargained

  • +8

    I wish there was an ozb filter on these forums to filter out the irrelevant posts. I can cu this down by a huge amount by removing all the experts who are talking about QLD, SA, Zimbabwe!! OP is in NSW.
    PS: OP you're not screwed, it'll work out in your favour. That is all.

  • +3

    I smell a rat here, I think the seller is doing dodgy stuff……

  • +12

    In NSW, the risk of damage to the property lies with the vendor prior to settlement.

    To get out of the sales contract and get your deposit back, you would need to 'rescind' the contract. Under a 'rescission', you will get your deposit back in full.

    The Conveyancing Act 1919 provides the purchaser the right to 'rescind' if there is substantial damage to the property (Section 66L).

    So knowing this, how do you 'rescind' the contract?

    Option 1: Get your solicitor to serve a written notice to the vendor's solicitor of intention to rescind on the basis of substantial damage to the property, which is provided for by the Act (needs to be done within 28 days of being aware of the damage)

    Option 2: Make a claim amount for compensation of damages to the property that makes it unattractive for the vendor to proceed with the sale. Under clause 7 of a standard NSW sales contract, the purchaser can make a claim of compensation for any damages to the property prior to settlement. The clause also provides the right for a vendor to rescind if the claim is more than 5% of the purchase price.

  • +5

    Real Estate Agent here. Just for anyone buying a home in SA and was curious, if you win an auction or signed a contract, you need to take out building insurance or a cover note ASAP. It has happened to me at a lesser extent and the vendor won.

      • +4

        i think you need to, the OP was just given advice which is useful

    • Why?
      Ownership doesn't transfer until settlement.

      The contract is for the house in the condition when it was auctioned.
      The vendor can't live up to their end of the contract.

      • I understand that Ownership doesn't transfer, but as soon as the contract is signed, basically it belongs to you. Settlement is the process of transfer of ownership.

        So you both need to take out insurance at the same time, if anything were to go wrong, you leave it to insurance to fight it out. If you don't have insurance, you're basically (profanity).

        I believe its only QLD and SA that has this rule. The rules of the other states is the opposite, i believe it is only when it settles then its your responsibility.

        • but as soon as the contract is signed, basically it belongs to you

          No it doesn't. You have agreed to purchase the house with ownership transferred at a future date.

          At the end of the auction you have a contract/agreement to buy the property.
          After that you transfer Consideration (a deposit) which is not a requirement in all jurisdictions but is a requirement under common law for the agreement to be binding.
          On settlement the property ownership is transferred.

          Before settlement you could say you have a financial interest in the property (the value of your deposit) however you are not responsible for the house as you do not own it.

          An insurable event occurring would mean that the house as you purchased it is no longer the same house
          This would mean that the vendor has not held up their end of the contract (transferring ownership of the house in the condition you agreed to purchase it in) so you as the buyer can terminate the contract.

          • @spaceflight: Not sure where you're getting your information from.

            This is from the legal services commission in SA.

            "Even if the property is fully inspected things can happen before settlement. For example, the hot water service might break down. Usually, a contract states that the risk (of any damage) passes to the purchaser once the contract is accepted.

            So if things break down with normal usage, or if the house burns down accidentally, the purchaser has no claim against the vendor. To be able to claim from the vendor, the purchaser will have to prove that it is most likely that the vendor negligently caused the damage after the sale was entered into.."

  • +2

    This is a troll post.
    No solicitor is that bad to not know settlement day allows the buyer to reinspect to insure the property is the same and all items are in same condition as at the time of auction.

  • So will this be a knock down and build a brand new house all paid by insurance? If it is true, would this be a good deal, can the settlement be delayed until a new house is built?

  • +4

    Is this a uni case study?

  • +1

    Call LegalAid for second opinion.

  • It's ok. In a few years you won't own it and you will be happy :)

  • +1

    This is laughable - Surely you're trolling all of us.

    100% the vendors problem. Significant changes to the properties condition before settlement are absolutely grounds for cancelling settlement and receiving a full refund of the deposit.

    NSW standard contracts even include a provision of 5% of the purchase price to be held in escrow if parties can't agree on costs for material changes or undisclosed issues that the vendor knew about.

    Any competent conveyancer or lawyer would handle this for you while sipping on their morning coffee.

    Is your solicitor being paid by the vendor or the vendor's agent?

    Once you're done with this, refer a complaint about your solicitor here: https://www.olsc.nsw.gov.au

    Side note: This is exactly why no one should ever accept a special condition in a purchase contract to release their deposit to the vendor during settlement. If they've spent the money, the purchaser will have to sue them to claw back their deposit. If it's held in escrow, it'll be much more easily returned.

    • +1

      That’s what the OPs lawyer incorrectly told them, and that was their understanding at the time. Hence the title

  • +3

    I do appreciate that the OP is still providing updates and hope they reach a satisfactory outcome.

  • vendor should not just cover costs for the repair - but your resonable legal costs + resonable time / make the sale still worthwhile
    taking it to court wouldnt be in anyone's interest at this stage…

    looks like they might have signed/settled on another properly and need to move asap so they dont want the sale to fall through aswell….

  • My understanding is that to obtain an insurance policy you need to have an insurable interest. But that may have changed
    https://www.millsoakley.com.au/thinking/do-you-need-an-insur…

  • +3

    Regardless of what the laws are here (and they seem to be on the buyers/OPs side) this is just plain sh*tty behaviour from the vendor. How morally bankrupt do you have to be to burn down a house you just sold (even by accident) and think it's fair / reasonable to force the sale anyway. Wouldn't you feel bad? Jeez.

    I'd feel embarrassed/apologetic enough as it is and certainly wouldn't push the sale forward if the buyer didn't want to. I wish the vendor was here to justify their appalling behaviour.

    Keep us posted OP, I really hope this works out for you!

  • Im curious, are you taking out a loan, and would the bank even lend you the money to settle, don't they conduct a valuation, and being that it's damaged that valuation I assume will be alot lower than anticipated.

    Note. Not qualified, just curious?

    • Yeah interestingly, the bank valued before auction. Funding then given at settlement…

      I was wondering what happen if I settle anyway.

      So the bank only cares if I can't pay. Once I can't pay anymore, they order me to well, any difference, I will pay it in future loans I think.

      • bank definitely cares if property has changed significantly after valuation (which it has). The onus is on you to inform them of that.

      • Also don't you need to submit your insurance certificate to the bank before they release the money.

  • If OP did go through with the sale, I doubt they would be able to get insurance on the house. Insurers will not insure a burnt down house, period for a new cover.

    Thus, it is literally impossible for this sale to go through until the house is fixed, as simple as that?

    Vendor would need to delay settlement until they repair the house. As vendor could not settle on the date of settlement, honestly it should be OP who should be sending a bill to the vendor.

    Even though the vendor WANTS to settle, the house is not in a condition for settlement to proceed. OP bought a house NOT burnt down, not a semi burnt down house.

    • if time is not of essence and property is for investment you can potentially renegotiate delayed settlement with price to purchase price minus insurance payout if the owner needs to settle urgently and does not want to deal with the hassle and dmg is significant. may be a shrewd buy for KDR

  • +1

    Who is ur solicitor? Let us know the company so we know to avoid . Absolutely bs whoever that person is

    • I'm not ready to burn my solicitor yet

      • but you don't have one, only a conveyancer. to be honest even a conveyancer should know unless they are from interstate and not up to date. either way it's no excuse for the most basic of what they do

  • +1

    So you actually have a solicitor, or are you using a conveyancer?

    You need a solicitor. Not a conveyancer.

    Big difference. It sounds like you are using a conveyancer.

    • +1

      I hired a law firm lawyer I suppose. But they give the job to a conveyancer working in that firm, who told me that initially. Didn't know his title until I saw one of his email.

      My assumption always that they are all lawyers, after all it is a law firm…

      • +2

        No. Many law firms hire conveyancers to do jobs like this because that is what they do, and much cheaper than getting a fully fledged lawyer to do something so straight forward.

        Not everything is written in law, so for any law firm, it's going to be about intepretation and if there is ambiguity for the courts to decide and make judgement on your unique scenario.

        Also, being a lawyer, doesn't mean you are good at what you do.

      • So you have not spoken to a solicitor. Ask for a solicitor.

      • +3

        OP I would at the very least lean heavily on your conveyancer to bring a solicitor to the next conversation given his advice has been shaky at best. I would also put a call in to the Principal or Managing Partner at the firm to advise him of the situation with the Conveyancer.

        I would avoid mentioning OzB in any conversation with your lawyers, just point them to the various links you found through here. You’re in for some serious money and you deserve the best help that form can provide.

  • +2

    I’m so heavily invested in this outcome. Rooting for you OP! Keep the updates coming :)

    • I am checking updates every hour. I am curious. I wish you good luck OP, but its a sad state of affairs if one needs luck instead of law to resolve issues like this.

  • -5

    The vendor can take you to supreme court to enforce the contract. If you go down that route, it's going to cost you tens of thousands in lawyer fees… easily your deposit cost. Plus on top of that any penalty interest you have to pay for not settling.

    Have you consulted another solicitor? An actual lawyer specialising in property and conveyancing?

    • +1

      Likewise there is a risk to the vendor should they wish to go down this path. OP can sue for damages as well as go for adverse costs.

      Expensive for sure and the reason many are fearful of going down the litigation path. But at the end of the day it could mean being in a better financial position if the OP has a legal win. All comes down to good legal advice and weighing up risks involved vs the alternative to do nothing and accept a loss.

  • +2

    Seriously, how inept is the OP's lawyer firm to not be able to figure something out.

    A quick Google in less than few seconds gets me this:

    The Conveyancing Act 1919 (NSW) (the ‘Act’) provides that risk for a residential property under contract does not generally pass to a purchaser until the contract is completed. This means that vendors are responsible for any significant damage to the property and should therefore retain insurance until settlement.

    The exception to this rule is when a purchaser takes early possession of the land. Possession of the land means an entitlement to occupy the property (through licence or otherwise) or to receive rent from the property.

    And even without that, just think rationally for a second.
    * If the risk stays with vendor, then they will be the one that needs to repair or at least compensate the OP for it.
    * If the risk passes to OP, then vendor can be held liable for property destruction.

    Unless OP has a seriously incompetent and useless lawyer (which it seems to be), the vendor won't get away with it.

    • Bakhos v Fenner and Anor [2007] NSWSC

      https://www.shirelegal.com.au/obligations-regarding-maintena…

      Anyone who says 'the vendor wont get away with it' doesnt understand that the law is rarely black or white.

      • +1

        In the case of Bakhos v Fenner as per your link, it seems that the fire itself was not as a result of the vendor's doing, which is very different from supposedly "accidental" kitchen fire in OP's case. Furthermore, the vendor seeks to repair in order to settle, rather than fobbing it off as the purchaser's responsibilities.

        The law is rarely black and white, yes, I agree. That's why people engage with experts - in this case OP hired a law firm, which seems to be quite incompetent at best.

        You can't shirk your responsibilities either when you sign a contract of sale, which is what the vendor in OP's case seems to try doing. That's what I meant by the vendor won't get away with it.

        • how do you come to the conclusion that it was a 'supposedly' accidental fire? That seems a very long stretch given what OP has told us

          And by 'shirk your responsibilities', are you talking morally or legally. Not the same thing. If, as per the case, the court said 'no significant damage' then OP has to buy it. Even if you think its 'unfair'. And nothing in the Conveyancing Act talks about whether the damage was caused by the vendor or not, thats irrelevant - the issue is whether there is significant damage to the property. Is the house in this situation 'significantly damaged' - a question of fact. Do you know those facts - no.

          I'm not sure why you keep saying 'law firm is incompetent at best'. OP called up a conveyancing clerk who said 'i think this is the answer but I'll get back to you'. Now, the response should have been 'I'll get back to you'. But the fact that a conveyancing clerk doesnt know every single section of the Conveyancing Act doesnt make them incompetent.

          • @dtc:

            how do you come to the conclusion that it was a 'supposedly' accidental fire? That seems a very long stretch given what OP has told us

            It could be deliberate, or it could be purely accidental. Timing seems too convenient for the vendor. (and yes this is a speculation in my part)

            And by 'shirk your responsibilities', are you talking morally or legally. Not the same thing. If, as per the case, the court said 'no significant damage' then OP has to buy it. Even if you think its 'unfair'.

            In both sense I guess? Even in the case earlier mentioned, the vendor repaired the house before settlement and had a structural evaluation of the place, meaning vendor had done everything they can to ensure settlement can go forward.

            Had the vendor not repaired it, would the court still make the same judgment/decision?

            the issue is whether there is significant damage to the property. Is the house in this situation 'significantly damaged' - a question of fact. Do you know those facts - no.

            We know that the damage is quite substantial based on OP's description, and police investigation has been started on it due to significant material damage.

            As per OP's post: All the cabinets, some walls, and some part of the roof. There is basically a hole on the roof and signs of smokes everywhere. Walls between the kitchen and living room is half gone, the window is broken, and water damage from the fire engine is on every part of floorings and walls.

            Whether or not those damages can be classified as significant as per the court's definition, is probably pending the result of further investigation.

            I'm not sure why you keep saying 'law firm is incompetent at best'. OP called up a conveyancing clerk who said 'i think this is the answer but I'll get back to you'. Now, the response should have been 'I'll get back to you'. But the fact that a conveyancing clerk doesnt know every single section of the Conveyancing Act doesnt make them incompetent.

            The law firm only noted of the Conveyancing Act after it was mentioned to them. Why does it have to be OP's job to alert them of these things? What is OP paying the services for a law firm for?

            OP's word regarding his law firm: But thanks to this forum the lawyer now things differently, especially from that 119 thing.

  • +3

    What kind of dumbass seller burns the house down before settlement, and then tries to palm it off to the buyer?

    Lawyers on both sides are also disgraceful. Surely if it was stipulated in the contract that the buyer has to purchase no matter what the seller did to the property it would have been made clear by the lawyer doing their job right and reading the clauses.

    Name and shame! Absolutely disgraceful and shameful behaviour.

  • If I were OP, I would fire the p.o.s solicitor and leave a very bad review on his google page

  • Hope you get the best outcome out of this. I believe that your conveyancer is right that you can’t back out from the sale with the damage this level, however it’s still the responsibility of the vendor to repair and bring the house back to the original condition when the contract was signed. It’s still a painful situation for both sides since you’re also affected.

    I suggest not to accept a discount offer but let the vendor deal with all the repairs and have an inspector check everything at the end

  • +1

    so…. sell house
    burn house down, get insurance payout and also the sale

    jackpot? besides insurance fraud and court case

  • OP, make sure you update us on this!

  • I would be getting the current owner to repair under their insurance and then settling on the property. Look at the bright side you get a new kitchen and repairs to the house.

  • I think any judge in the land (except Mordor) would side with you mate if you took them to court. You hadn't settled the property and they damaged it before you took the keys.

    Some good notes in this article here on the subject (assuming it hasn't already been posted)

    https://www.equilaw.com.au/what-happens-if-your-house-is-dam…

  • +11

    Update today,

    Not much of an update, things are still pretty much the same. Basically while it seems I'm in the right, the law is not 100% clear. The auction rule didn't say that it is unconditional, except if this or that. Although it's likely I can win it in court.

    So for now I will keep pushing what I want. I think the vendor will wait until they can get paid from the insurance, before they are ready to cancel settlement. Maybe just in case they don't get paid, or what not.

    I'm not 100% in the right either, because in all honesty, I didn't do all the checks that people usually do before auction, pest report, building report, etc. What if they said the building has existing structural problems that causes the fire? At that time, I thought it is highly unlikely, especially given it has stood for 20-30 years.

    Anyway, I'm gonna try to get some good sleep tonight and think what to do again tomorrow.

    • Structural defect would not cause a fire. Unless a wall collapsed and ripped out a power cable, but then still unlikely.

    • Structural problems don't cause fires. Fires may make them worse but a building inspection isn't a crystal ball into the future either. You will be okay.

    • thanks for the update.

      I think everything will be OK but sucks having to deal with this kinda of thing!
      Hope you get some good sleep :)

    • Thanks for the update.

      One thing i haven't been clear on from other's comments is the thing about unconditional - Yes an Auction is unconditional because there's no cooling off period… Every other transaction also becomes unconditional after the cooling off period ends after (usually) 5 days also… so in my mind the Auction vs private treats is no different after 5 days anyway.

      • It's very different. For example, what is most often happen is financing can cause things to break down in private treat, but cannot be a reason in auctions.

        Say buyer lost their job, banks can pull out their approval, so buyer can pull their offer out also. This is more than 5 days, but usually less than 2 weeks.

        Or like my case, bank saw major defects and pull out from using that property as security. Although they haven't stated so, and this happens after 2 weeks and my income still can service the loan.

        • +1

          What you’re suggesting is a private treaty with “subject to finance” cooling off period, which is usually 5 days, but lately has been more like 10 with banks taking longer.

          Same still applies, once the cooling off period ends, the contract goes unconditional and you’d be obligated to buy the property.

          The finance thing can still be an issue, for example off the plan properties, cooling off period ends, but the bank doesn’t value property til construction completes. Heard many occasions where the bank values property less before settlement (ie contract price: $1m, bank value: $800k). You still have to pay $1m, but the bank will only lend 80% of $800k. So you thought you had to pay 20% of $1m ($200k), you now need to pay the difference ($360k).

          Long story short - once cooling off period ends for PT, all property contracts are the same, unless there are special conditions in the contract.

    • +1

      Even if there were existing problems, it is still the vendor’s responsibility to keep the property in the same condition as was inspected.

      Unconditional doesn’t literally mean you must purchase under any condition. It means you can’t cancel because of cooling off, building or pest inspection or finance clauses which may have been inserted in the contract. The vendor can’t deliver their promise and the contract is void. They must return your deposit. We’re not taking about minor damage here. It’s not habitable and that frustrates the contract.

      The insurance company won’t make a determination for 4 months and wont cover your accomodation for god knows how long it takes to get repaired.

      They are trying to make their problem yours.

      • +3

        This is the correct answer, the "unconditional" refers to the auction process and NOT the settlement of contract.

        i.e. You cannot "condition" your auction bid on a "subject to finance" clause.

        I want to make this clear to the OP, the "auction" is just a type of selling process. The other common type of sales process is private treaty. The NSW land sales contract is the ACTUAL contract, and any recourse you have will be based off this contract.

        The issue here is NOT the auction, that has finished and you have exchanged contracts after the auction. The issue here is settlement, given the vendor has failed to deliver their part of the contract and are unable to produce the land as it was originally described upon settlement.

        I strongly suggest you go and find a more experienced solicitor versed in conveyancing law.

        • +1

          Agree, either the current conveyancer is hopeless or the OP is not understanding what they are saying. You likely can't stop settlement, but the amount you settle for will (/should) likely end up being the purchase price LESS whatever the agreed cost will be to return the property to the condition you bought it in at auction (or more likely you will settle for the full amount but the insurance payout the vendor gets will be transferred to you - not sure on this, IANAL).

          OP I get that you want to back out of the purchase (and I completely understand why) but legally you will likely still have to settle but you may (after a bit of a wait) end up getting a brand new house (or at least a renovated house) which might make all the hassle worthwhile

  • +7

    NAME YOUR LAWYERS ASAP!
    i am looking to buy in NSW and need to know who to avoid!

  • +1

    Well they damaged your property why arent they liable to fix it? Or can I burn down peoples kitchens and walk away with no consequences?

  • I bought in VIC (via auction) and my broker and solicitor both advised me to get insurance ASAP. Broker sent through a complimentary free building insurance with AAMI until settlement, then I took over with a paid policy. OP sorry for your unfortunate situation but it seems like your solicitor is incompetent in acting in your best interest.

    • This is incorrect. In vic and nsw, purchaser is responsible for insurance after settlement.

      • I'm in VIC, 3 years ago my lender advised (forced) me to get building insurance prior to settlement.

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