3x Infringement Notices for Passenger Not Wearing Their Seatbelt

Marf183 on 15/02/2022 - 23:28
Last edited 16/02/2022 - 16:21

I've recently found out I have 3 infringement notices against my name (2 overdue and 1 due in a few weeks) for "Driver drive with unrestrained front seat passenger".

The reason 2 are overdue is that the mail arrived at my old residence during the time I was moving house. So just my luck, I missed them…

My passenger was wearing a seatbelt at the time and it can be seen in some of the photos. The catch is that the shoulder strap is pulled down and in one pic under the passenger's arm (so not on properly).

I have 2 questions I was hoping someone could help me out with:
1 - It's a long shot but if it's clipped in but the shoulder strap is pulled down, does that still count as not wearing a seatbelt?
2 - Is it possible to transfer the demerit points to the passenger's name (the passenger is very happy to take the points if possible)? The QLD gov sites and TRM sites are very difficult to decipher so I was hoping someone had some clear info to help me out here.

As mentioned above it's in Queensland and I do have an open QPL license with no current points against it.

Each infringement is worth 3 points.

I appreciate the help with this not so good situation :/

UPDATE

  • In relation to question 1, the official response that they give everyone is "Seatbelts must be worn correctly to reduce the risk of injury or death. This includes lap belts which the cameras can detect. The top part of the seatbelt must be on the shoulder, and the bottom part on the hips. "
  • For question 2, even though the passenger wanted to take the fine, it can't be transferred.

Thanks to everyone who helped to answer my questions. It's much appreciated :)

Automotive

Comments

      • EightImmortals on 16/02/2022 - 07:29
        -1

        I knew the bastards would coopt that tech for frivolous revenue raising. How long before we start getting tax bills for not wearing masks while driving?

      • dust on 16/02/2022 - 09:46
        +2

        The mobile phone detection cameras are used for other offences too?

    • smartazz104 on 16/02/2022 - 17:48
      +7

      They just want more money.

    • Marf183 on 16/02/2022 - 00:31
      +5

      I have the windows as tinted as legally allowed. Cameras don't have any trouble seeing through it.

    • ol mate on 16/02/2022 - 08:48
      +11

      Because it's illegal to tint the windscreen.

  • iNeed2Pee on 16/02/2022 - 00:23
    +9

    Kudos to you OP for being a good sport!

    Good luck with it

    • Marf183 on 16/02/2022 - 00:32

      Thanks!

  • nephilim on 16/02/2022 - 00:46
    +3

    Worked with a heavily obese dude who kept getting caught not wearing a belt, was hard for him to argue for health reasons.
    Court ended up delaying taking his license for 3months, then he lost it for 6months.

    Irony he ended up getting a government job and leaving us, guess HR were okay with his police check?

    • morse on 17/02/2022 - 05:20
      +1

      Old mate should have looked into seatbelt extenders.

      Irony he ended up getting a government job and leaving us, guess HR were okay with his police check?

      I suspect not wearing a seatbelt is a civil offence not a criminal offence, so wouldn’t be on his criminal record. Speeding is generally a civil offence too unless it’s so bad that you also get charged with reckless endangerment which would be a criminal offence. You can also be employed in the public sector with a criminal record depending what your role is, crimes were and whether you can demonstrate you’re not going to cause trouble for the organisation. They’d be more interested in fraud, violent offences etc.

      • ol mate on 17/02/2022 - 08:54
        +3

        Change Civil Offence to Traffic Offence and you're correct :)

  • MagicTsukai on 16/02/2022 - 00:51
    +1

    can you show us the photos,
    blur out faces, etc

  • holdenmg on 16/02/2022 - 04:16
    +1

    OK, so I found https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/fines/cameras

    I didn't know they used AI, but I guess it makes sense, if you got it, use it…

    I'm a little surprised there aren't privacy concerns over this, but they seem to slip through this by discarding those images that are complying.

    I guess you got done by the smart AI learning.

    I think there is a Sheepskin Wool Auto Seat Belt Cover Seatbelt Shoulder Pad available, but I think even these had some issues being used.

    • kyle on 16/02/2022 - 06:23
      +1

      What a misleading heading on that page "Camera locations".

    • Marf183 on 16/02/2022 - 15:54

      yeh they've got some cool tech going on these days

      Will probs consider the cover, thanks

  • Euphemistic on 16/02/2022 - 05:52
    +11

    You aren’t going to get out of it. A seatbelt not worn properly is considered the same as not wearing a seatbelt.

    Time to pay. Maybe you can save money by collecting some coins from the offending passenger.

    I’m glad they have hear cameras. Phone use and seatbelts should be heavily policed.

      • iamherenow on 16/02/2022 - 08:30
        +14

        Sounds to me like govt has done good work. OP will ensure passengers are safe in future.

        • EightImmortals on 16/02/2022 - 08:32
          -4

          Yep, can't have a car accident if they take your license and a lot of your money.

          • iamherenow on 16/02/2022 - 08:37
            +12

            @EightImmortals: It's called a deterrent.

            • EightImmortals on 16/02/2022 - 09:36
              -4

              @iamherenow: Yes, because not having your seatbelt in the exact proscribed position on your shoulder is deserving of the other person being fined and maybe losing their drivers licence. The 'edumication' system has done it's job well.

              • iamherenow on 16/02/2022 - 09:42
                +9

                @EightImmortals: It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure passengers are wearing their seatbelts correctly. But don't let that stop you having a good sook.

                • EightImmortals on 16/02/2022 - 09:47
                  -7

                  @iamherenow: Were they wearing it or not?
                  If they were then anything else is just Kafkaesque absurdities for the politicians to justify stealing more money and instilling fear in the population.

                  • iamherenow on 16/02/2022 - 10:02
                    +4

                    @EightImmortals: "Were they wearing it or not?"

                    See original post if it's not clear to you.

                    "If they were then anything else is just Kafkaesque absurdities for the politicians to justify stealing more money and instilling fear in the population."

                    Yeah right. Or it could be about safety. Someone needs to protect the bogans from themselves.

                    • Ozpit on 16/02/2022 - 11:17

                      @iamherenow: I disagree. Darwin Awardees make a valuable contribution to the evolution of our species.

                  • Ughhh on 16/02/2022 - 13:37
                    +2

                    @EightImmortals:

                    If they were then anything else is just Kafkaesque absurdities for the politicians to justify stealing more money and instilling fear in the population.

                    person being fined and maybe losing their drivers licence

                    If their sole purpose was to "steal" more money from you, why take away your licence and ruin the cash cow? 🤯🤯🤯

      • dizzle on 16/02/2022 - 08:45
        +5

        Not really the best arguement, particularly when it's done for passenger safety. It's the same for a lot of safety equipment when not used properly. It's not like they are trapping you into not wearing it properly

        "You MUST wear a helmet"
        "OK, no worries"
        "Ah-Ha! you ver not wearing it properly, ve gotcha again! Give us your money peasant!"

        "You MUST get a heavy vehicle licence"
        "OK, no worries"
        "Ah-Ha! you ver not driving it safely, ve gotcha again! Give us your money peasant!"

        • EightImmortals on 16/02/2022 - 09:36
          -3

          Oh yeah, it's always 'for our own good'. lols

          • Euphemistic on 16/02/2022 - 10:44
            +1

            @EightImmortals: Nope. It’s for everyone else’s good. Even in a single vehicle crash where no one else is injured it costs a lot of time and resources to deal with it.

      • lltravel on 16/02/2022 - 16:08
        +2

        dont bother aruging with ppl on this forum, they all love paying fines and bills. I bet these people love to give their money away

        • EightImmortals on 16/02/2022 - 16:29

          hah, yep I've been around here long enough to have that sussed. Sometimes I need the emotional release though…..

        • johnno07 on 17/02/2022 - 15:54
          +1

          No one "loves paying fines". Just stop getting them, you drongos. Being legally required to wear a seatbelt is hardly rocking the foundations of our civil liberties. Pick your battles and take your screeching elsewhere.

  • MS Paint on 16/02/2022 - 07:42
    +7

    What car?

    Many cars have belt height adjustability in the b pillar for this very reason.

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 16/02/2022 - 08:28
      +1

      Obviously an FJ Holden.

      • Euphemistic on 16/02/2022 - 10:44

        Don’t think they had any belts. I had a 1969 model that only had seatbelts in the front.

    • WT on 16/02/2022 - 10:19

      some cars also have adjustable height on the passenger side.

      my mum is shorter then that and wears a seat belt fine. Finding the latch is another story…

      • matt881 on 17/02/2022 - 08:17

        Sounds like my mum!

  • doctordv8 on 16/02/2022 - 07:57

    Busted. Both learn a lesson. Easy to use belts correctly. Both pay up and move on.

    Lucky to not be involved in a crash with possible worse consequences than if wearing it correctly.

    Fortunately only your pride is injured this time.

    .

    • OzCheapo on 17/02/2022 - 20:33

      and his wallet

  • bondi on 16/02/2022 - 08:02

    It is really hard to get out of these charges. You would have problems to convince the judges, but if you have a very good driving records, you might be out by lenience.

    • Marf183 on 16/02/2022 - 15:57

      Yes, I agree.

      My original question seems to have slipped past everyone a bit.

      Just figured I'd ask if simply clipped in wasn't enough and assumed it wasn't but doesnt hurt to ask.

      Also, the passenger wanted to take the points so was asking if people knew if that was possible.

      I haven't had an infringement before so I thought I might find good advice here

      • Qazxswec on 16/02/2022 - 16:16

        your original questions have been answered though havent they, no and no, being clipped in doesnt count, if you were in a crash, your passengers shoulders neck and head would be thrown forward much further so there is no way that is classed as properly constrained, and no, of course you can't transfer the points to the passenger, it is the drivers responsibility to make sure all passengers are restrained properly at all time, whenever you get behind a wheel, you are always completely responsible for all your passengers safety and well being, their lives are literally in your hands

  • Rayzorback on 16/02/2022 - 08:25
    +5

    Next time sit the little delicate flower in the middle back seat.

  • Pelicannn on 16/02/2022 - 09:08

    How did you even get done three times for this?!? Three times on the same day? Or three separate occasions?

    • Euphemistic on 17/02/2022 - 08:44

      As it’s already happened three times, I’d be suspecting there’s also more in the mail if the OP uses the same route with the same passenger.

  • powerinnumbers on 16/02/2022 - 09:32
    +1

    OP. You're going to get nowhere. You are liable for the fines and in my opinion the seat belt was as good as completely off.
    What sucks is your bad luck with the mail

    • Marf183 on 16/02/2022 - 15:51
      +1

      Yeh you're right.

      My original question was mainly just to confirm that a clipped in belt doesn't count and if I can transfer points or not.

      The threads gone a little far from the questions haha

      Yeh, if I had seen the first letter, I would have been all over making sure everyone was stripped in.

      Thanks for the input :)

  • hikaru78 on 16/02/2022 - 09:34
    +4

    I am the bearer of bad news
    The second and third fines are double demerits

    License gone
    I'd be seeking legal advice
    maybe take a good behaviour bond

    • ribze1 on 16/02/2022 - 15:53

      The fact that they were caught on three occasions tells you this is BAU.

  • [Deactivated] on 16/02/2022 - 09:46
    +1

    Unless its a very old vehicle, most cars in the last 30 years have height adjusters in the front. There should be no excuse to not wearing a seatbelt properly. In the event of an accident the result will be exactly the same to the upper body as not wearing one. Huge amounts of trauma to the chest and head from impacting the dashboard, all because of some minor discomfort.
    Seatbelt height at lowest setting and a protector sleeve if that's not enough.

  • pegaxs on 16/02/2022 - 10:51
    -5

    lol… So, you go caught 3 times… You didn't learn after the first one, so you copped a second ticket. Went on to continue not giving a rats ring-bit and copped a third ticket for the same offence? Pay the fines. Learn your lesson and get better friends.

    1 - It's a long shot but if it's clipped in but the shoulder strap is pulled down, does that still count as not wearing a seatbelt?

    I think you answered this one yourself when you said in your OP: "in one pic under the passenger's arm (so not on properly)."

    In Qld, it is the drivers responsibility to ensure passengers are wearing their belts;

    264A Driver must ensure passengers comply with seatbelt requirements
    (1) The driver of a motor vehicle that is moving, or is stationary but not parked, must ensure each passenger in or on the vehicle—
    (a) is wearing an approved seatbelt that is properly adjusted and fastened; and
    (b) complies with the other requirements applying to the passenger under section 265 or 266.

    and next;

    2 - Is it possible to transfer the demerit points to the passenger's name (the passenger is very happy to take the points if possible)?

    So, no, your "friend" cant take the points, as they were not driving at the time. And even if they were to nominate as the driver, they would then possibly need to nominate who was the passenger.

    • MS Paint on 16/02/2022 - 11:03
      +7

      Are you skim reading again pegaxs? 🙂

      The reason 2 are overdue is that the mail arrived at my old residence during the time I was moving house. So just my luck, I missed them…

      • pegaxs on 16/02/2022 - 13:18
        +3

        I wasnt asking why they are overdue, but how did OP come by having 3. It's literally in the first line…

        I've recently found out I have 3 infringement notices against my name (2 overdue and 1 due in a few weeks) for "Driver drive with unrestrained front seat passenger".

        It reads to me like they have "3 separate infringement notices" all for "Driving with a (fropanity) in the car who wont wear a seat belt correctly"

        Or did I miss the part where OP corrects this by saying that it is only 1 infringements but 3 warnings?? Or the part where 2 of them were for speeding and only one is for the seat belt issue?

        Or did you just skim read my comment? :P

        Added to this, if OP had have transferred their new address to their license within the 14 days that is required under Qld. legislation, 2 of those fines would possibly not be "overdue", so, forgive me if I don't buy the whole "I didn't know I had them" line of bullshit.

        • MS Paint on 16/02/2022 - 13:55
          +1

          That makes sense. Cheers

        • theguyrules on 16/02/2022 - 15:47
          +1

          With the way that the cameras work, they could have got them all on the same day if they drove past it multiple times.
          And with how slow the fines are to actually be sent out, it doesn't even have to be the same day.

          They could have had 3 fines before they even knew that they had one.

  • OzHunterNSW on 16/02/2022 - 13:56

    So who wears a seat belt under the arm…. it is your responsibility to ensure all within your vehicle are properly restrained. Same apples to boating… same applies to almost anything…..
    Now pay for it

  • Misplaced on 16/02/2022 - 14:23

    Make the passenger pay for it. It's them who infringed on the road rule which everyone should know.

  • hazzad on 16/02/2022 - 14:39

    Whilst, yes it is the drivers responsibility to ensure passengers are correctly restrained prior to driving, problem is, once you are driving, you are supposed to be looking at the road and the 100 other things that can go wrong outside of the car, not looking at what the passenger is doing. Surely at some people the passenger has to be held responsible for their own actions once the vehicle is in motion. The driver cant be looking around at passengers AND also focus on safe driving. Seems a little illogical to me.

    • Euphemistic on 16/02/2022 - 15:19

      Yes, there’s a thousand things to be looking out for. awareness of what a passenger is doing is one of those things.

  • GordonD on 16/02/2022 - 14:40
    +1

    If the police stop you they can identify both the driver and the passenger on the spot and impose the penalty on both. The passenger for not doing it. The driver for not ensuring the passenger did it.

    If the offence is camera detected then its like a camera detected speeding offence. They don't know who was driving the car, so they send the infringement notice to the registered owner, and they can offload it to the driver at the time if that wasn't them. So it would be possible, if the passenger agreed, for the driver to offload it to them, by making a false declaration as to who the driver was at the time. If that false declaration would not be obviously detected, by, say looking at the gender and recorded image of the driver, and if both parties were willing to risk the considerable penalty if they were caught.

    • Marf183 on 16/02/2022 - 16:04
      +2

      Hey, thank you for the genuinely good input that answer the questions.

      You are right. I'm just paying the fines. I cant transfer without lying about the driver and the photos are surprisingly crisp.

  • payless69 on 16/02/2022 - 15:59

    Cameras were designed in the Netherlands and eventually did not pass any privacy rules anywhere in Europe. So a secret contractor from NSW got a very lucrative contract to use whatever they feel fit. There is no requirement for either calibration nor any standard of how they process the images. I do know some people who work there.
    I had received a speeding photo taken clearly at night with an aquisition of being at a time that has never night. Yes they admitted that they were in the wrong, their equipment was faulty beyond any doubt. Took it to the judge, he refused to even look at the picture so it was an expensive day. Was even told that if I would ask again there would be a 9 month suspension and good behaviour bond. Good luck to the rideshare drivers who take the game every day. Families with kids of every possible size and luggage to make it impossible to carry a child seat. Most taxis here have no covid register so cash payers enhance the social system. Registered credit card payers still have to check in or the driver never gets the license back. But good news: The Wellcamp Re-Education Centre is now finished. No shortage for virtually unlimited inmates. BTW Insurance companies do no longer have to pay out if they feel they had been left out of information deemed unsave driving!

    • ol mate on 17/02/2022 - 08:58

      Good luck to the rideshare drivers who take the game every day.

      There is an exemption for bus, taxi and rideshare (in certain circumstances).

  • lew380 on 16/02/2022 - 16:28

    Your not supposed to think about anything or question any of our laws that our glorious leaders have blessed us with, pay the fine and just be happy that they haven't opened the gulags yet.

  • Oofy Doofy on 16/02/2022 - 16:43
    +2

    Super duper nanny state at this point. Damn

    • smartazz104 on 16/02/2022 - 17:50

      But then you look at some of the people around you and question how they put on their pants every morning.

      • Oofy Doofy on 16/02/2022 - 22:34

        True. Maybe I'm one of those people? hahahaha

    • morse on 17/02/2022 - 05:03
      +1

      What’s the problem with wearing a seat belt?

      Presumably people not wearing one will want taxpayer funded public healthcare when they go flying through the windscreen.

      Obviously it’s a big enough issue that it’s worth having the cameras there - a shame that it has to be monitored this way (I’d prefer privacy in my car too) but blame the idiots not wearing seatbelts.

  • jrvb42 on 16/02/2022 - 19:03

    Not sure where you are, but in SA I think both driver and passenger are fined. Doubt you can transfer the points anyway. Really depends on jurisdiction.
    Having the seatbelt improperly fitted is effectively not wearing it, and I don't like your chances with any challenge.

    • [Deactivated] on 17/02/2022 - 21:49

      Wouldnt be surprised if true but driver is responsible legally

  • Drakesy on 16/02/2022 - 19:13

    How do you get 3 infringements unless you never learnt from the first one?

    • Euphemistic on 16/02/2022 - 20:03

      Issued by camera, didn’t receive the first two in the post until late due to ‘moving house’ according to OP

      • CalmLemons on 16/02/2022 - 22:59

        You declare that you only knew about the infringements at a certain date and you can nominate or have extra time to respond.

  • Butt Scratcher on 16/02/2022 - 20:49

    Wait, there are cameras that detect whether or not you are wearing a seatbelt now?

    Since when was that a thing oO

    • Euphemistic on 16/02/2022 - 21:38
      +2

      Doesn’t matter if you wear a seatbelt!

  • OhNoUShiz on 16/02/2022 - 22:03

    What about pregnant woman? Can they wear the shoulder strap only?

    • dizzle on 16/02/2022 - 23:21

      Are they less likely to get injured if they don't wear the lap strap?

      I've never known pregnant women not to wear a seatbelt properly and most recommendations state they should:
      QLD Health
      Babycenter
      Mums Grapevine

    • morse on 17/02/2022 - 04:56

      Under the bump!

    • Euphemistic on 17/02/2022 - 05:12

      Don’t believe so. It used to be an excuse to not wear a belt at all, but not any more.

      • Yola on 17/02/2022 - 12:53

        Why would anyone not want to wear a seatbelt?

        • Euphemistic on 17/02/2022 - 15:15
          +4

          Because it’s hot, because it’s uncomfortable, it’s not cool, I’m only going for 5min, I’m not going to crash, it’s a nanny state rule, the airbags will save me……

          All stupid excuses. None of them will get you out of a fine.

  • CalmLemons on 16/02/2022 - 22:59
    +3

    wtf cameras detect these things now?

  • miwahni on 16/02/2022 - 23:18

    This wouldn't happen to be at the intersection of California Creek Rd and Beenleigh - Redland Bay Rd at Cornubia would it? There's a little white camera thingy bolted to the existing traffic lights, and I've been wondering about it.

  • neverlate on 17/02/2022 - 03:43

    where is this seatbelt camera?

    • Euphemistic on 17/02/2022 - 05:13

      Wherever there is a mobile phone checking camera. NSW have a number of fixed cameras and a few mobile units.

  • morse on 17/02/2022 - 04:54
    -1

    I would probably go to court, say you weren’t aware of your passenger doing this (even if you were). Say that they were strapped in properly when you set off. I would be extremely apologetic, say you’ll rectify the issue and how. I wouldn’t even try to argue the height thing, you’re going to look like you’re making excuses. You could say that’s the reason they gave to you later, but I wouldn’t admit that you knew they were doing it. As it could cost you your license it’s worth a try in court.

    • Euphemistic on 17/02/2022 - 05:14

      Might get you some leniency for a first offence, it when you’ve got three to your name the court is going to see it as habitual, not an error in judgement.

      • morse on 17/02/2022 - 05:21

        I think they got three in a row so they weren’t aware of the first one when the second and third occurred.

        • Euphemistic on 17/02/2022 - 07:41

          Yes. But photo evidence of you doing it 3 times doesn’t point to a momentary lapse of judgement. It shows a habit.

          My guess is that the passenger is not from Australia, probably somewhere where seatbelts are not enforced as we do, but that’s not much of an excuse either.

          • morse on 17/02/2022 - 08:00

            @Euphemistic: No not an excuse. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for seatbelts and think OP and passenger did the wrong thing. My comment is really just that I think they might have a shot in court. I don’t think OP and passenger will be doing it again.

            • Euphemistic on 17/02/2022 - 08:42

              @morse: If you did go to court and please ‘I wasn’t aware the passemger did this and they were strapped in when I left’ I don’t think the judge would go lightly. To me that seems a dumb defence.

              Maybe you’d get some leniency if you could show the passenger wasn’t aware of ‘the Australian way’. Ie hadn’t been here long. Or possibly you could say I know I’m guilty and I’ve learned a valuable lesson and these fines/points will cause undue hardship.

  • creesy on 17/02/2022 - 12:33
    +1

    Feel for you op,. Rediculous to expect the driver to adquately concentrate on drive whilst making sure their passenger is wearing their seatbelt correctly at all times.

  • IanC on 17/02/2022 - 14:07
    +1

    These cameras were given huge publicity and had a long phase in amnesty period.

    If a driver can't spend 5 seconds asking their passenger whether they have their belt on BEFORE starting the vehicle then so be it,

    but don't bleat about the fines.

    You have three simple choices :

    1. Check before starting.

    2.Don't carry passengers.

    3.Buy a new car which has an audible warning regarding seat belts.

    My problem with the cameras is it hasn't been extended to the include the fag sucking idiots as they light up while driving or winding their windows down to to throw their cancer

    stick butts onto the roadside or flicking their ash out the window to avoid some of the foul stench inside their cars.

    • OzCheapo on 17/02/2022 - 20:38

      Your last sentence painted a totally different picture before I read the cancer stick buds… Does that mean road activities between passengers and drivers are now illegal?

      • IanC on 18/02/2022 - 11:26

        sorry not following. "Does that mean road activities between passengers and drivers are now illegal?"

  • A Driver on 17/02/2022 - 15:24
    +3

    I have a couple of “friends” who I always have to remind to buckle up. Then halfway down the road I’ll check again and they would have undone their belts so I pull over and wait (and fight about it) again. Their behaviour is so disrespectful but you can be assured I’m in no hurry to drive them anywhere ever again!

    • THICKnSLOW on 17/02/2022 - 20:29

      You must be a childcare worker

    • keejoonc on 18/02/2022 - 12:13
      +2

      They should stick to catching the bus then. No seatbelts to contend with on buses.

    • DiscountForThee on 18/02/2022 - 12:42
      +1

      What are the reasons they give for not wearing their seat belts?

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