Cheapest Way to Force Carbonate Small Batches of Cider?

Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 13:49
Last edited 08/12/2021 - 14:12

Hi all,

I've recently been playing around with small 2x 2L batches of (very high ABV) cider, and while the cider itself is quite nice, I'm having issues reliably carbonating it. I've tried using a calculator to carefully measure out the right amount of sugar for each bottle, and even adding some freshly pitched champagne yeast in case all the existing yeast is dead, and I tend to get barely any carbonation 2 weeks later, with quite a bit of variation in success between bottles. I suspect the high (15%+) ABV is to blame despite the strain handling 17-18% on paper, but I'm not changing that haha.

Even if the purist solution is 'wait an extra 2 weeks' - I'd like to try force carbonation via a sodastream or something to compare it to, if nothing else.

So … has anyone tried a sodastream for something like this? Or any knock-off brands? Is there any other (safe) way to carbonate a couple litres a week of beer/cider on the cheap?

Cheers.

Food & Grocery

Comments

Xistn on 08/12/2021 - 14:01

+4

Didn't realise this was HomebrewBargains…

Let me change my Hat!
- Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 14:06
  
  +2
  
  Haha, well I figure booze at bargain prices is pretty Ozbargain!
  
  And I've certainly found a way to make bargain booze. I just wish I had the idea at Uni rather than now I have spare money - A few random $2 bottles of 2L juices from woolies, a $1 packet of champagne yeast, and $2 worth of sugar. Ends up being about $1.25 per Litre of 15%+ ABV brew! Cheaper than goon, and better tasting!
  - Xistn on 08/12/2021 - 14:07
    
    +2
    
    All G, I think your ABV is what is hurting your process, But I ain't no brewer.
SupeNintendoChalmers on 08/12/2021 - 14:06

+2

Initial outlay is not cheap, but overall cheapest long term solution is to buy a Sodastream, an adapter hose and 6kg tank

Hose
https://www.kegland.com.au/freedomone-sodastream-adapter-hos…

Tank
https://www.kegland.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=%2522%252…
- Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 14:09
  
  Hmm. That does seem like a very high initial outlay, considering I probably make maybe 2x 2L batches every couple of weeks or so.
  
  Are there any Sodastream knockoffs that use non-proprietary tanks that don't cost a fortune?
  - maxxpowa on 08/12/2021 - 14:11
    
    Just remember that with a 6kg tank if you get a leak - you can lose the whole lot. I prefer a 2.6kg tank - which isn't quite as cost effective, but still very affordable per kg.
    
    Also, it will take you a long time to use even 2.6kg of Co2 just force carbing.
    
    If you are looking for smaller still then try this: https://www.kegland.com.au/450gram-sodastream-compatible-ref…
    - Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 14:16
      
      Wow, that smaller one seems pretty cool. And that slots right into a sodastream, no adapter required?
      - Gronk on 08/12/2021 - 17:36
        
        +1
        
        @Grazz989: Yes, I have one at home, just screws straight in where the 450g bottle would normally go.
        
        I am a tad skeptical of the Soda Stream solution, whenever I've tried to carbonate anything other than water it ends in a mess.
        
        There are other brands around which will carbonate anything however I'm not sure if there are adapters for those to allow you to use the larger CO2 bottles.
- Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 08/12/2021 - 19:55
  
  +1
  
  OzB bargain way is to just get a 2.6kg co2 bottle, basic connections and use this on PET bottles (OP do NOT use glass)
  https://www.kegland.com.au/plastic-carbonation-line-cleaning…
  
  Also those Groslch style bottles are horrible and will leak eventually.
mskeggs on 08/12/2021 - 14:10

At 15% you'll be killing the yeast. Try some champagne yeast from the brew shop. Make a sugary "starter" and keep it in the fridge so you will always have plenty on hand.
A teaspoon of sugar and a drop of champagne yeast will carbonate in a few days.
- Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 14:12
  
  Whoops - I should've been specific. Yes, I'm using champagne yeast for both the initial fermentation, and for the little dose of extra yeast for the secondary. After throwing in 6.5g of sugar per bottle, then the cider itself, I literally just throw a heavy sprinkle into a shot glass of warm water, let sit for 15 minutes, and dose in a few drops into each 330ml bottle.
  - njastar on 08/12/2021 - 14:45
    
    What type of bottles are you using? And what type of juice or whatever starter are you using?
  - mskeggs on 08/12/2021 - 14:56
    
    Are you securely tightening the lid on the bottles after adding the yeast/sugar?
    If you are adding yeast and sugar, CO2 will be produced unless the temp is very hot or very cold, or something no else is killing the yeast. During the initial brew you let it escape so the bottles don’t explode, but the last bit needs a tight lid. (Apologies if this is obvious, just trying to think of things that sometimes go wrong for new brewers).
    
    15%ish should be ok for champagne yeast. Normally, the sugar is all consumed before the yeast produces that level of alcohol. Your cider should taste very, very dry, with no sweetness.
    I presume you are over-adding sugar to get alcohol as high as possible. If so, and you still have unfermented sugar in the mix (it tastes sweet at all) you have reached the ceiling in alcohol, and that is what is killing your yeast. So adding more to a poisonous mix won’t carbonate.
    
    Normally, it is a good idea to make sure all the sugar is fermented, so the last bit of added sugar provides the carbonation. If you are hitting the alcohol ceiling you might need to look to forced carbonation.
    Could you instead target 14%, so you have the headroom to naturally produce the carbonation?
    - Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 15:12
      
      I'm quite confident the bottle lids are secure, as I'm using new flip-top bottles (y'know, like Grolsch style ones?).
      
      It's about 20deg in the little walk-in wardrobe where I store my brew here in Canberra. It would never get below 15 or above 30 here.
      
      I don't think I have any unfermented sugar, as indeed it's definitely quite dry. I usually wait for a few days after the last bubbles are visible. Further, I used a calculator (taking into account the existing sugar in the juice) aimed at 15% and just added the indicated sugar*.
      
      I suppose I could target 14% next time, but at this stage I'm questioning whether it's worth the effort of targeting a lower percentage, the effort of preparing the right amount of sugar and an extra dose of yeast, carefully measuring it into each bottle … etc etc. Or I could just get a sodastream or something and do 1L of the stuff at a time and just pour it, ready to drink, right into the bottles. Less sediment and cloudiness too I imagine. It also means I can cold crash the primary vessels in the fridge and not having to worry about it being so cold that it screws up the secondary (I haven't been cold crashing so far).
      
      *Calculations: I figured there's 10g/100ml sugar existing in the apple juice, which is 100g/1L … To which I added 300g to the 2L bottle for a total of 500g/2L or 250g/L. A calculator spat 14.7% at me.
- Ryanek on 08/12/2021 - 14:31
  
  +1
  
  You're always wealth of knowledge mskeggs
  - Pecan on 08/12/2021 - 14:48
    
    +5
    
    Her name is Ms Keggs, she should know how to homebrew.
weezlebub on 08/12/2021 - 14:58

don't use soda stream, the carbonation process with any sort of sugar in the water will be explosive (i've learnt that a few times over) …

get a second hand keg-fridge, swap to the 20L kegs with a CO2 bottle … i was able to brew ginger beer @ 15% with bubbles
- Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 15:15
  
  20L is just way too much for me. I'm doing this as a fun little small scale hobby, not really something to make a lot to drink on a daily basis.
  
  What if I were to put high conc. sugar syrup into the beer bottles, sodastream up the (dry, sugarless) cider, and then simply pour that into the bottles, cap them, and shake to mix the syrup in?
Third_Gear on 08/12/2021 - 15:13

I would bottle it after primary ferment and add one carbonation drop (available at the supermarket in the fermentation section) per 350ml of liquid. Store it in a warm place for min 2 months. Cider takes a bit more time to get the full flavour and will get better with more age. Not sure how you are making it though. Try Mad Millie’s Yeast for cider and Keg King has some nice cider yeast though not the highest of ABV like you are after.

The other option is a pressure ferment - I can make and drink beer in 5-7 days straight from the pressure fermenter with a 15Psi PRV valve on it. So easy!! Enjoy your new hobby!!
- Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 15:19
  
  Carbonation drops are just pre-measured sugar. It's the 'store in a warm place for 2 months' that might be the issue here, but if so … I really would like to speed that part up if possible.
  
  I know it'll probably taste better with age, but I'd like to be able to drink at least some of the batches with carbonation now, and store the rest for another try in 2 months.
  
  A pressure fermenter seems interesting. Have you got a link to something like that? I'd be looking for the very smallest one possible.
  
  Edit: I had a look at kegland and it had some interesting vessels - 18L is their smallest, seems reasonable. Do you need to have external CO2? Surely if you just dump the primary in there it'll get up to pressure naturally? If I need external CO2 with all that hassle and expense then it's probably just something to look at when I want to expand later.
  - Catullus on 08/12/2021 - 16:17
    
    Just get CO2 bulb adapter at bike shop.
    - Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 17:14
      
      Pardon?
      - Catullus on 09/12/2021 - 11:26
        
        @Grazz989: easiest source of co2 is the ordinary bulbs sold in supermarkets, bike riders use them blow up their tyres via a little adapter that screws on the bulb. is an easy way to use.so if you need co2 for other projects
        
        Grazz989 on 09/12/2021 - 11:33
        
        @Catullus: Fair. But from what I've seen the hardware cost to use the bulbs is similar to that of a proper setup … So I'm left with three unappealing choices:
        
        Shell out like $75 + $10 for gas for bulb setup, and be stuck with poor value tiny bulbs over the long term, especially if I want to go big in the future.
        
        Shell out like $95 + $25 for gas for a 450g sodastream & type-30 compatible setup, but that can't be refilled without a proper 2.6/6kg keg so once it runs out I'm going to have to buy one anyway
        
        Shell out like $85 + $70 for a straight type 30 2.6kg setup.
        
        And who knows what the shipping will cost for all those.
  - Third_Gear on 09/12/2021 - 07:40
    
    Keg King chubby is the best value with the extra 15Psi prv valve. You would need external co2 to force the liquid out.
DJR9000 on 08/12/2021 - 15:38

what i would do…

either dilute the juice before you ferment it to have a more manageable final ABV… or failing that use forced carbonation.

buy some carbonation caps from kegland and a small co2 bottle with regulator, e.g. the 450g bottle with mini regulator, then you can just force carbonate it. Get it cold, push pressure up to 30-35psi or so, shake it a few times (make sure you don't invert the bottle and get liquid in the hose and into the regulator). You can then just fill PET bottles like 2L coke bottles or the big brown PET bottles kegland sell.

I did something similar to make carbonated water, works pretty well (although now i have a dedicated 5L mini keg for water). You can just connect the gas quick disconnect into the carbonation cap to add pressure, then remove the disconnect and shake it, repeat a couple of times and you should be able to get the exact pressure / carbonation level you are after.

Also.. yeast nutrient might be the issue here - if you're using pasteurised filtered apple juice there is not a lot of nutrient in there for the yeast to grow cell walls etc… There's simple nutrients out there like fermaid O, fermaid AT etc
- Grazz989 on 08/12/2021 - 17:18
  
  For nutrient I'm adding a significant amount of boiled baker's yeast. Probably not much of that left after primary fermentation but I wouldn't have thought much would be required for secondary and ec-1118 yeast.
  
  Apologies for being dumb - but could you link me to that regulator? I can find the 450g bottle just fine, but the regulators all look like they're for big setups.
  - DJR9000 on 08/12/2021 - 18:07
    
    this is the type i mean
    
    https://www.keg-king.com.au/mini-all-in-one-regulator-with-p…
    
    you still need an adaptor if you go down the sodastream bottles - as the mini's are still designed for a big bottle. For the same price you can just get a kegland mk4 and then grab an adaptor, the mk4 will be usable on a larger bottle if you decide to go that way.
    
    i've got a mini regulator and it's ok, but can be prone to leaking and the PRV is set to go off at about 30PSI which isn't ideal .
    - Grazz989 on 09/12/2021 - 10:37
      
      Thanks again!
      
      So … in short I can go with Kegland and get:
      
      A Mk4 regulator: https://www.kegland.com.au/co2-gas-regulator-mk4-dual-gauge-…
      -Do I want 65 or 35 PSI? I've heard the PET bottles can handle like, upto 100?
      
      Some cheap Carbonation caps: https://www.kegland.com.au/plastic-carbonation-line-cleaning…
      
      A Sodastream to type 30 adapter: https://www.kegland.com.au/deluxe-sodastream-cylinder-adapte…
      - And that way I can use either the 450g sodastream or the 2.6kg type 30 cylinders.
      
      Do I need a hose or anything between the regulator and the carbonation cap?
      - DJR9000 on 09/12/2021 - 10:42
        
        @Grazz989: yeah you'll need some beer/gas line and a grey gas disconnect between the carb cap and the reg.
        
        the reg I think comes with a 8mm duotight adapter, i'd get another 8mm duotight to MFL adaptor (to go on the disconnect), a gas quick disconnect and a length of 5mmx8mm gas line. I think kegland only sell it in 8m packs or something, so that'll be heaps. not sure if you can get it per metre.
        
        Cut a length and you can just insert that into the duotight adapters to connect the gas bottle to the disconnect.
        
        65PSI gauge is better - for force carbonating you might want as high as 45PSI
        
        edit: also the carb caps have a short internal pipe that you can put 5mm ID line on - you can play around with having a length of beer line inside the bottle to let the bubbles from the co2 push into the liquid rather than the headspace, or even put a carbonation stone on the end of the line
        
        Grazz989 on 09/12/2021 - 11:10
        
        @DJR9000: Holy moly. That's a lot of random parts, the cost adds up really quick.
        
        The reg does inded come with 'duotight 8mm x FFL'.
        
        So I want this disconnect: https://www.kegland.com.au/premium-plastic-ball-lock-disconn…
        
        And a whopping 12m set of 5mm x 8mm line: https://www.kegland.com.au/evabarrier-5mm-x-8mm-double-wall-…
        
        However I just noticed that on the carb cap page it says: "NOTE: The duotight fitting shown in the photos does not come included. If you want to attach the duotight fitting on the back of this fitting then you can use the this one that will allow you to attach 8mm OD EVABarrier 4mm or 5mm ID Beer Line. "
        
        … Does that mean I need to buy yet another thingy? i.e. this: https://www.kegland.com.au/duotight-6-5mm-1-4-x-8mm-5-16-red…
        
        Is that all, or did I miss one or two? Many thanks for the handholding, you must be going through the exact same exasperation I sometimes get when giving tech support haha!
        
        DJR9000 on 09/12/2021 - 12:21
        
        @Grazz989: yep this is the part list
        
        gas bottle
        adaptor if using the sodastream bottle
        regulator
        duotight to MFL adaptor x2 (1 of them is included)
        MFL gas disconnect
        Carb cap
        5mm x 8mm beer line
        
        You could just go to a local home brew shop for the beer line as you should only need a metre of it
        
        note also you need to refill the gas bottle when it runs out - i fill mine as an emergency from a 6kg bottle, you can't just swap it like the branded ones though. You'll only use about 6g of gas per litre though. Cider i guess you want about 3 volumes of CO2 which is 6g per litre. Or if you want it really champagne level carbonation you'll use a bit more
        
        Grazz989 on 09/12/2021 - 18:54
        
        @DJR9000: You're the best. Thanks a million for all the help!
AndyC1 on 08/12/2021 - 17:58

True Oz bargainer trying to brew his own and then asking when something does not go right.

I would go into a home brewing shop and ask them, BUT make sure the one you go to has reasonable prices as some have high prices.

Cheapest Way to Force Carbonate Small Batches of Cider?

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