Recommend a Car for My Mother - Budget $30k - $50K

gromit on 07/12/2021 - 15:10
Last edited 23/12/2021 - 19:37 by 1 other user

My mother needs a new or maybe used vehicle and looking for some good recommendations for her.

Requirements:

Very reliable, she is mid 70's but drives a lot, regularly distances of a 200km to 1000km. probably still averages 1000km+ a week. mix of highways and country roads.
needs to be station wagon or SUV for carrying things.
Needs to be economical to run due to distances travelled.
She likes her comfort but struggles with new tech so beyond sat nav and radio and blue tooth for phone etc it doesn't matter much.
Budget undefined, but guessing 30k-50k.
Reasonable service and repair prices
If new something with great warranty and servicing.

Currently drives a Peugeot 508 station wagon, diesel (circa 2012), very economical but horribly unreliable. She likes Mercedes but prices on anything new enough I think are out of her budget at the moment.

All advice welcome.

Update: For those interested looks like it will be a Rav4, she seems to love it.

Automotive

Comments

  • GG57 on 07/12/2021 - 15:12
    +7

    *advice

  • GG57 on 07/12/2021 - 15:16
    +1

    There is a good comparison article here:
    https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/peugeot-508-gt-v-skoda-o…

    If it were me, I'd look for a more recent 508 wagon to fit your budget.

    • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 15:23
      +9

      No way will she touch another Peugeot after this one. but thanks for article.

        • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 16:20
          +17

          Multiple overheating issues. computer issues, starter motor issues, water leak issues. Nothing that has cost her much but all extremely inconvenient and taking her off the road.

          • GG57 on 07/12/2021 - 16:27
            +2

            @gromit: My experiences with multiple Peugeots over the years was the opposite. No major issues.

            • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 16:31
              +8

              @GG57: maybe she just got a lemon, but it has been her first and will be only Peugeot. The worst part wasn't really even the issues (though they were inconvenient), it was multiple of the incidents took weeks and weeks to get parts from overseas to fix.

              • [Deactivated] on 07/12/2021 - 16:50
                +12

                @gromit: There are more lemons with French cars than good ones, I mean there is even one named after a lemon

        • bobbified on 07/12/2021 - 17:36
          +3

          haaaaaaaaaaaaa! I knew I'd find you here! 😋

        • dr on 08/12/2021 - 21:49
          +5

          ask any Peugeot mechanic they all swear by them

          yes, I bet they do. After all, they have to thank Peugot for putting their children in private schools, for being able to afford couple of holiday properties, small 30ft fishing boat and overseas holidays every two years before Covid struck.

          All of that while at the same time driving Lexus…

          • nubzy on 08/12/2021 - 22:21

            @dr: Only me and about two others on Ozbargain seem to have a clue about Peugeot, everyone else living in the past and talking rubbish!! Problems occur due to owner NEGLECT. The engines are all very well established at this point (just avoid the 3cyl with the wet belt) and they use Aisin transmissions and a mix of Japanese and German parts. PSA have rocketed up the charts for quality and reliability over the past decade. Yes it may not be as reliable as a Toyota in the long term, but lifes too short to drive boring cars.

            • [Deactivated] on 09/12/2021 - 21:28
              +5

              @nubzy: "lifes too short to drive boring cars."

              Right, so you chose Peugeot LMAO

              • nubzy on 09/12/2021 - 21:29
                -3

                @[Deactivated]: What's boring about a Peugeot? They're full of character and quirks. Obviously never owned one :)

                Lightweight chassis, i-Cockpit, tiny steering wheel, luxurious interiors, panoramic roof, spirited yet fuel-efficient engines, sporty styling. What's boring champ? I get in a Toyota Corolla or Hyundai i30 and can't wait to be out of it. Now those are boring cars.

                • [Deactivated] on 09/12/2021 - 21:43

                  @nubzy: You brought up 508 gt wagon which probaby goes for around 55 56k then you compare to corolla or i30n and say they are boring. You on drugs? Lmao

                  • nubzy on 09/12/2021 - 22:01
                    -1

                    @[Deactivated]: Compare it like for like with similar cars then!! Simple stuff!! Peugeot have cars for every class! The point still remains.
                    Think you might be the one on drugs :)

                    • tomleonhart on 10/12/2021 - 04:18
                      +2

                      @nubzy: Appreciate your Peugeot enthusiasm. I owned a 2010 308 XPS, never again. Should have known when the owner got rid of it for so cheap.

                      My brother in law was a dealer principle for a Peugeot dealership. Company car is a 3008. He owns a BMW. Told me don’t go near a Peugeot unless I like to waste money. His advice was a tad too late after I already bought one.

                      • nubzy on 10/12/2021 - 09:59
                        -1

                        @tomleonhart: When I recommend Peugeot's, I am only recommending the diesels and anything released after 2014 (when the T9 308 came out). This car was the turning point for Peugeot and if you do your research you will realise this. Before that point, I agree they had issues, especially with the 1.6 Prince engine (early models renowned for HPFP and timing chain issues). But this is no longer the case, that engine has undergone numerous revisions throughout its life and now has very few issues (main thing to be aware of is that it consumes a lot of oil, so keep it topped up and don't rely on the sensor). They are good quality cars now and this is backed up by owner experience and reliability surveys overseas. I would be much more comfortable buying one out of warranty than a Merc, Audi or BMW. When I took mine to get a rego check at a random mechanic, he said he puts Peugeot above BMW and Merc and commented that mine was immaculate. I got it cheap and it has not cost me a cent outside of regular maintenance. Look after your car and it will serve you well.

                  • Agret on 10/12/2021 - 09:16
                    +2

                    @[Deactivated]: He said he compares it to an i30 , the i30n is actually a cracker of a car and what he should be looking at instead.

            • frugal investigator on 10/12/2021 - 23:39

              @nubzy: Absolute crap, Peugeots are not remotely reliable. I have a Citroen and it also is a lemon.
              I had to get a specialised mechanic to fix it and even he says nobody is trained to service them properly.

        • djprima on 09/12/2021 - 07:18
          +2

          Can attest to the pug diesel reliability, have just clocked in 150k without any issue and 200k for my work colleague's. Other mate has one over 400k logged. I know they are normal figures for japanese cars but I'm just countering the stereotype that all Peugeot is unreliable. They are perfectly fine if maintained.

          • ankor on 09/12/2021 - 21:49

            @djprima: 216k on a 2000 corolla. Most expensive service was about 2.3 K to replace 4 bald wheels, control arm bushels, realign steering, general service and replace radiator tank and plug which had split and had been going a bit weird.

            Runs so much better now I wouldn't even bother upgrading it.

        • Zondor on 09/12/2021 - 09:37
          +2

          European Cars =/= Reliable

      • blorx on 10/12/2021 - 09:45
        +1

        Good. Partner had a Peugeot a while back. Had to get parts shipped internationally a few times took ages. Was a PoS would never touch again.

      • afah0447 on 10/12/2021 - 14:07
        -1

        Steer clear of any French car.

        Just like their leaders, they love surrendering.

  • SBOB on 07/12/2021 - 15:17
    +42

    RAV4 Hybrid
    Lower models should be fine if she doesnt need to carry a kayak

    • Archi on 07/12/2021 - 15:21
      +20

      probably wants it in the next few months.. not next few years

    • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 15:22
      +1

      I thought they were pretty much impossible to get in near term.

      • SBOB on 07/12/2021 - 15:49
        +3

        true, but didnt see a deadline in your op.

        non hybrid would be easier to obtain, up to driving roads/stints as to whether hybrid economy benefits would be a factor

      • teamfletch on 09/12/2021 - 08:03
        +1

        Call a broker, they might know of cancelled or unallocated stock that’s around. It’s not impossible to get one quickly but you’ll be paying rrp.
        Also with the 2022 coming out people are cancelling 2021 orders so might have an even better chance of getting an unallocated 2021.
        Can send you the broker I used who is very popular for buying Rav’s

    • MS Paint on 07/12/2021 - 15:31
      +12

      mix of highways and country roads.

      Why waste your money on a hybrid? Just a bog standard RAV4 will suffice here.

      • spackbace on 07/12/2021 - 16:31
        +1

        Not the 2.0L. Lacks the power and response you'd want

        • donkcat on 07/12/2021 - 17:02

          They also made a 2.5L. But even with the 2.0L I don't think the power is really an issue for someone who is not going to tow.

          • spackbace on 07/12/2021 - 17:39

            @donkcat: I know they make a 2.5L… before you suggest the 2.0L, drive both. The 2.0L is the same engine as the Corolla

            • donkcat on 07/12/2021 - 17:47
              -2

              @spackbace: I’ve driven the 2L before and it was a 08 model, it wont be the quickest off the line but its enough for a 70 year old

              • spackbace on 07/12/2021 - 18:19
                +1

                @donkcat: 2008 models were 2.4L…

                Newsflash, I've driven both on many occasions, hence the recommendation for the hybrid

                • donkcat on 07/12/2021 - 18:40
                  -1

                  @spackbace: Typo, 2018, its fine. A 70 year old doesnt need to b the quickest off the line. And she doesnt need the hybrid even with what you’re saying, she just needs the 2.5L

                  • spackbace on 07/12/2021 - 18:42

                    @donkcat: So buy the Edge model, which is more expensive than any hybrid models (brand new)?

                    Or are you thinking of the 2018 engine options where they were all available with a 2.5L AWD?

                    • donkcat on 07/12/2021 - 18:46

                      @spackbace: Yes thats right the 2.5L AWD, think they also offered it in 19. I mean the hybrid would be great but last i heard they are difficult to come by, but im not sure about the availability of a 18/19 2.5L either

                  • Kangal on 09/12/2021 - 01:23

                    @donkcat:

                    A 70 year old doesnt need to b the quickest off the line.

                    Au contraire, she's got even less time on this planet than the average (30 year old?) driver. If anything she'll need the fastest 🤷

        • pharkurnell on 07/12/2021 - 18:59

          Shes 70… it would have shit loads of power.

          • spackbace on 07/12/2021 - 19:10
            +1

            @pharkurnell: Depends what's she's used to

            The 508 came in 1.6TD with 82kW, 2.0TD with 120kW, up to a 2.2TD with 150kW…

          • Grunntt on 08/12/2021 - 11:38
            +4

            @pharkurnell:

            Shes 70… it would have shit loads of power.

            That's a lot of ageist assumption there - my wife is not that age yet but it won't be too long and she drives a 370Z. She really dislikes driving anything with less get up and go (at least this way my car is always available for me).

        • teamfletch on 09/12/2021 - 08:07

          100% agree, wouldn’t touch the petrol

      • Ade99 on 08/12/2021 - 08:31
        -6

        Hybrids emit more VOC's than a diesel or even petrol ICE.

        • Dogsrule on 10/12/2021 - 07:56

          Source pls.

    • Benoffie on 07/12/2021 - 23:24

      Seconded.

      If your mum isn't fussy about paint or whether it's GX/L/Cruiser, I guarantee you can find one somewhere if you're willing to pay for it.

      I dont know where you're at but country Toyota dealers have demo stock regularly that they will sell but can't move in their locales.

    • pogichinoy on 10/12/2021 - 15:16

      What’s this kayak joke?

  • Masterpupil on 07/12/2021 - 15:18
    +7

    Toyota Prius V. It's a hybrid (good economy). It's Toyota so it is fair to assume it will be reliable. It is a wagon with fold down seats in the back.

    • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 15:26

      Interesting, thanks had not thought of Prius.

      • andresampras on 08/12/2021 - 10:21
        +2

        I drove a prius once. They are genuinely slow. Almost fell asleep in the time it took to get up to speed.

        From Google: Toyota Prius v/Acceleration 0-100 km/h: 11.3 seconds

        Would be scary to have so little power on the open road, I'd think.

    • darshu on 08/12/2021 - 00:20
      +2

      But driving on country roads and highways would not save much compared to driving a Prius in a city.

      • Euphemistic on 08/12/2021 - 06:03
        +2

        This. Prius hybrid system relies on slowing and stopping to generate electricity to accelerate again. There isn’t enough slowing on many country highways to get the benefit of the hybrid system. If the country roads are windy or hilly with lots of braking and accelerating it’ll be better than the dual carriageway Hume Highway.

        • Dogsrule on 10/12/2021 - 08:03
          +2

          My 3rd gen 2010 Prius has been used almost exclusively on the highway over 350,000km and it has used 4.5L/100km over its life. Our RAV4 AWD Hybrid uses 5.2L/100km in the city and 5.5L/100km on the highway. Highway fuel consumption of Toyota hybrids is still a fair bit better than non-hybrid competitors due to the Atkinson cycle the engines use, plus the almost lossless hybrid transaxle. The electric motor and battery is only part of the efficiency benefit of the hybrid system.

      • PoKGuy on 08/12/2021 - 08:14

        Yep, I had a rental Hybrid Corolla an when driving on the freeway (100km+), the hybrid system isn't contributing to the drivetrain, it's engine power.

        • stewy on 08/12/2021 - 18:42
          +5

          I've got a Camry Hybrid and you still do see the electric motor working at times on the motorway. For a 20km trip to work that is atleast 50% motorway, I'm still seeing sub 5L/100km fuel economy. On longer trips between Wollongong and Syd, I'd probably be in the 5 to 6L/100km range on the freeway.

          Having the CVT keep the engine revs low and using the electric motor on hills definitely does seem to still help a bit on the motorway.

          Where the Hybrid shines though is you get V6 performance when you want to overtake whilst still getting better than a regular 4 cylinder's economy. I feel that it has better overall driving refinement too compared to the non-hybrid Camry.

          I'd happily buy a Toyota hybrid again.

          • Jackson on 09/12/2021 - 13:38
            +1

            @stewy: Last time I rented a 4 cyl camry I was on holiday driving around 3 adults and 2 kids, and it never felt underpowered, and it didn't use much petrol over a week either. for a 70 year old lady the 4 cyl is fine, and she may not see the savings at her age by the time she stops driving

            • stewy on 10/12/2021 - 01:03
              +2

              @Jackson: Have you driven the Hybrid Camry to compare?

              My previous work had the non-hybrid 4 cylinder Camrys which I spent a bit of timing driving (mostly on the highway) and overall I felt they weren't as nice a car to drive. If you want to overtake, then the extra power from the the electric motor helps.

              I believe the hybrid is only around $4000 dearer and the hybrids would appear to be holding that extra value well in terms of resale prices.

              • Jackson on 10/12/2021 - 10:27

                @stewy: I have driven both, however a model apart (the non hybrid I drove was the previous model to the hybrid) . I like the Hybrid Camry, just not sure it serves this old lady well.

                I drove a hybrid corolla too, even though I drive quite conservatively it really felt like the petrol motor was on all the time and it was the Atkinson cycle doing all the petrol saving.

          • Dogsrule on 10/12/2021 - 08:09
            +1

            @stewy: Exactly, the other contributor to their great fuel economy, whether in the city or on the highway is the Atkinson cycle that the engines use, which is more efficient than the Otto cycle typically used in non-hybrids.

  • Archi on 07/12/2021 - 15:22
    +5

    21/22 hyundai tucson 2.0 diesel

    • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 15:35

      Thanks looks worth looking into.

    • MS Paint on 07/12/2021 - 15:37

      Just hope the urea shortage doesn't come to fruition

      • Archi on 07/12/2021 - 15:52
        +9

        korean diesel cars don't have a seperate tank for adblue (urea) mainly trucks and european diesels have the need for this.

        • MS Paint on 07/12/2021 - 16:09

          TIL - cheers

        • Geoff01 on 08/12/2021 - 09:37
          -1

          Never seen a road car need AdBlue. It's not a thing. Only trucks due to emissions. No European diesels I have had ever need AdBlue.

          • Archi on 08/12/2021 - 09:52

            @Geoff01: probably, i have never seen it on the cars i have come into contact with either however

            • Ford Everest, Ford Endura and 2.0L Transit require it.
            • Mercedes bluetec also uses adblue
      • Ade99 on 08/12/2021 - 08:33
        +2

        Those cars which don't use adblue will soon probably start to attract a premium in the second hand car market.

        • stewy on 08/12/2021 - 18:44

          Newer diesel cars that don't use AdBlue will have DPFs in them. No one is paying a premium for a DPF-fitted vehicle. Well not unless its a Toyota 200 series!

    • JDMcarfan on 07/12/2021 - 15:58
      +1

      Agree strongly with the above, but given her age and the unlikeliness of using all the features available on modern cars (like my parents!) maybe even just a mid-top spec tucson/sportage from the outgoing generation to save some $$$. They'd be next to new (might even get run out demo's) and significantly cheaper. More or less the same mechanicals just a different body/suspension and a whole heap of cabin/tech upgrades.
      Yes the new ones are always better but how much extra value is she going to realise from them. I prefer the looks and fit and finish of the Tucson over the Sportage (have driven both) but the 7 year warranty, slightly bigger body (and cargo space) and lower price tag of the Sportage might convince you/her to shop for that.

      (edit: NVM about getting a run out. Just looked at the prices and the 10% discount for a 2 year old car vs a brand-new new refreshed model is definitely not worth it (45k vs 50k approx.)

      • Nereosis on 10/12/2021 - 14:05

        Sportages are surprisingly nice cars for the price.
        Got a second hand one for 26k for my partner and I never hate driving it like I did with her old Pulsar or her mothers Toyota Kluger (drives like a boat).

        • JDMcarfan on 10/12/2021 - 16:29

          They’re great value cars and I’m not trying to tarnish the name. Just personal preference goes to the Tucson for that generation given the styling and interior layout.
          For the current gen however it’s a much closer playing field. I’d say prices would be the sole determinant of which one I’d pick if it were me.

  • Mokr on 07/12/2021 - 15:45
    +4

    Think about how many driving years she has left.

    Mother is older. Please get a car with modern safety features like auto stop

    • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 16:25
      +13

      She is probably a far safer driver than many of the posters here on OzB, she doesn't speed or play with phone or think traffic signs are meant for other people. 60 years of driving (the last 40 years averaging 1000-2000km a week) and never an at fault accident. MY grandparents both lived till late 90's and were still driving till late 80's. So would think she has quite a few years left of driving yet.

      • Mokr on 07/12/2021 - 16:34
        +1

        Some good genes

        • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 16:36

          yep, Mothers side of the Family are very long lived. Wouldn't surprise me if she outlives me as my fathers side all die under 70 lol.

          • andresampras on 07/12/2021 - 18:00
            +1

            @gromit: Just curious, why does mum drive so much? Is it for work?

            • gromit on 08/12/2021 - 16:59
              +5

              @andresampras: used to be for work so for 40 years driving 1200km a week just back and forth to her shop, plus 1000-2000km a week for doing quotes and deliveries. hence driving a lot doesn't bother her. I have 2 brothers and a sister we all live 200-1000km from her and she will regularly drive to visit, she has no interest in moving from her country town location as she likes it there and knows everyone there and the distances don't bother her in the slightest as they are relatively small compared to what she used to driving.

              • andresampras on 08/12/2021 - 17:02
                +3

                @gromit: Ah OK makes sense.

                Let us know what she ends up buying!

    • andresampras on 07/12/2021 - 16:27
      +9

      No idea why this would be downvoted.

      Auto-braking is something I would definitely look for in a car driven long distances by a septuagenarian.

      OP, I'm biased here based on my own experience, but I think a Golf / Passat Alltrack or Skoda Octavia / Superb Scout would tick several boxes - mod cons + safety features + huge boot + AWD + slightly raised height when compared to a regular wagon.

      I don't think they make new diesel versions any more, if she prefers/is used to the way a diesel drives. Could still get one 2nd hand though.

      • OldSchoolHarry on 08/12/2021 - 17:20
        +3

        septuagenarian

        I learned a new word today. Thanks :)

  • bitesized on 07/12/2021 - 16:20

    Honda Odyssey?

  • Drakesy on 07/12/2021 - 16:26
    +12

    Where's that guy that reckons Peugeots and Renaults are the most reliable cars out there?

    • bobbified on 07/12/2021 - 20:27
      +7

      He beat us all to it right…… here! lol

      • Drakesy on 07/12/2021 - 22:15
        +4

        godammit

  • cashless on 07/12/2021 - 16:27

    Camry

  • brendanm on 07/12/2021 - 17:40

    2018 Passat wagon tdi.

    • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 17:54

      Hmm interesting, I had an R36 for 7 years, was awesome car . Definitely one to consider.

  • [Deactivated] on 07/12/2021 - 18:55
    -1

    needs to be station wagon or SUV for carrying things.

    personal choice as it comes down to preference of model but as a fellow road user i would prefer you chose a station wagon so the car behind can have better visibility which may prevent someone slamming into you. that and SUV's are highly susceptible to rollover when at highway speeds in an accident and are also not suited for evasive maneuvers due to their center of gravity being up so high. (unless you are driving around in a BMW X5 where the weight and wide tyres compensate for this so it is not as much of an issue)

    if you have some time on your hands go on youtube and search "moose test" and watch a few videos , will open your eyes up a little.

    Needs to be economical to run due to distances travelled

    since you mentioned station wagon or SUV you can kiss fuel economy goodbye especially if having the need to carry things. i would not be considering your next car choice based on fuel economy , but the car needs to be FWD if fuel economy is important but if safety is more of an importance choose AWD, additionally the weight of the car and the engine capacity also is important (the lower the better in both categories up to a point).

    If going on the highway a lot i would recommend at least a 2 liter turbo motor or a 2.5 liter naturally aspirated motor (for fuel economy)

    If going on the highway and fuel economy isn't a big deal then a V6 engine would be ideal due to the low down torque and overall smoothness of acceleration, but if most of your journeys are short or stop and go then scratch this suggestion and go with the above.

    Budget undefined, but guessing 30k-50k.

    Pick a car with all the associated safety features a modern car would have but without that high of a price tag , a 50k car isn't necessarily a better package over a car that costs 30k based upon your requirements , additionally nor would it be any safer as these days most modern cars come with airbags and ABS brakes as standard , some higher models have emergency autonomous braking which can be helpful but won't stop a fender bender and in some cases if the sensor is dirty cannot be relied upon and the same goes for the blind spot sensors (if the car isn't washed regularly)

    ultimately choose a car that you would not be upset over if it were involved in a crash or put you in a bit of a difficult situation financially and make sure it is fully insured to the value of the car.

    Reasonable service and repair prices

    Don't choose anything euro if you want reasonable service and repair prices , i have read online that Skoda is of euro quality but without the price tag so they might be worth looking into but i have never personally had one so i cannot comment any further on it , but if you want reasonable stick to Japanese or Korean brands.

    If new something with great warranty and servicing.

    Kia often have 7 years warranty on their new vehicles and i believe Hyundai do as well otherwise most other manufacturers (but not all) offer 5 year unlimited km and capped price servicing as standard.

    Good luck to you and your mum, take anything you read online written by anyone with a grain of salt.

    • SBOB on 07/12/2021 - 18:58
      +4

      take anything you read online written by anyone with a grain of salt

      Like some of the comments in the post above :)

    • andresampras on 08/12/2021 - 10:16
      +2

      @JollyHotdog love the effort put into your post, but disagree with your comments on fuel economy & engine size (you've forgotten about turbos) and I question the bit on service/repair prices (For example I've heard Subarus are not cheap to own. Also I've had Skoda Octavias, they're similar or a bit cheaper than Golfs to maintain - plus if you service at a competent independent mechanic, you'll get better service at lower cost). If she's used to Peugeot and Merc servicing costs, there are plenty of euros that would be fine.

  • pharkurnell on 07/12/2021 - 19:00
    +7

    70 yrs old and regularly drives upto 1000klms… lol

    I hear that Lindsay Bros Transport are looking for drivers

    • El cheepo on 07/12/2021 - 19:27
      +1

      Not sure why the Neg, that gave me a great laugh

    • gromit on 07/12/2021 - 19:42
      +7

      that is actually a pretty big cutback in what she used to drive while working. was 1200k's a week just driving back and forth to work, deliveries and quotes for the business could add another 1000+ to that easily. She used to have a Mercedes, was bought new in the 80's, Clocked the odometer (1 million kms) before finally being put to rest in the early 2000's.

      • [Deactivated] on 08/12/2021 - 00:05

        Wow… 1M kms on a Merc…

        • gromit on 08/12/2021 - 12:58
          +3

          Was around 1.3 by the time she disposed of it, still running when she sold it.

          • knasty on 08/12/2021 - 19:34
            +1

            @gromit: Was the odometer even 7 digits? After 1M you put value back into the car by making it 'low mileage'? Asking for a friend, ferris Bueller day off style…

            • gromit on 08/12/2021 - 19:50

              @knasty: no, 6 digits only, so 1m read as 0.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join