Had the tv on, and saw the wording across bottom screen
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100491122
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China Bans Crypto. Will You Sell or Hold?
Nugs on 25/09/2021 - 10:10
Last edited 25/09/2021 - 10:12
Last edited 25/09/2021 - 10:12
Poll Options
- 19Sell
- 133Hold
- 20Buy
- 13Wait for dip and buy
- 183Got none, won't be getting any
- 10.
Comments
The Chinese government have effectively just put upward pressure on crypto by making it more illegal.
LOL and if China made it legal the fan boys would say the Chinese government have put upward pressure on crypto because now everyone can buy it.
Apparently no matter what happens you always win with Crypto.
Diamond hands.
If authoritarians feel crypto needs to be banned, then it must be doing something powerful and good. When China bans things, those things tend to become more popular.
The question will be what Australia does, if crypto lures the attention and capital of too many younger people. The economy revolves around negatively geared investment properties; anything which threatens that obsession will be viewed with extreme suspicion.
Yes, just like opium!
I think Australia will fall into line behind the EU when they put extra controls, which I think is also just a matter of time.
Uncontrolled transactions are intolerable for countries depending on taxes and wishing to maintain laws.The question is if there are benefits to crypto that outweigh the drawbacks. In any case, expect more rules and regulations to counter the crime and tax avoidance.
It has nothing to do with anything except tax and law enforcement. That regulation might benefit the real estate industry just means there is an extra voice calling for it.In reality, I suspect real estate benefited many, many times over from crypto moving money out of China to buy our property, rather than any leakage from first home buyers into other investments. So you might find real estate is actually on your side
Some criminals/terrorists would propose that having control of your own money outweighs the drawbacks.
I have no doubt though that the majority of Australians will accept the upcoming financial panopticon, where 'your' money must be held by a bank, seizable or debased at a whim.
If you have nothing to hide…
There is nothing upcoming about the financial panopticon, $10k transactions have been under scrutiny for years and people have accepted it.
If you have concerns about the state seizing your money, bury some gold in the backyard or invest in productive assets like a business. There hasn’t been any asset forfeiture in Australia except in the case of proceeds of crime.If you are arguing about freedom to benefit from crimes, well, that isn’t likely to fly in Australia.
@mskeggs: All electronic transactions are already under scrutiny, and the Australian government is itching to ban cash.
Then 'your' money will only be accessible through a bank, so long as you obey the bank's policies, while they pay you zero interest, and the government debases fiat as quickly as possible.
If physical gold starts serving the same use as crypto, then authoritarians will surely support banning that too. If you have nothing to hide…
The only acceptable alternative may be to invest in 'productive' businesses like a negatively geared property portfolio.
@popsiee: Yes, along with a tin foil hat and a book about the flat earth.
If anyone disagrees with authority on one topic, then it follows that they must disagree with all authority on every topic.
@ndea: I'm finding it difficult to position my left shoulder near the scanner though .
They should have put it lower :)
@ndea: personally I’d be more concerned about a Cyprus style bail in than bank transaction reporting.
But while I take your point that privacy exists for many reasons, high value transaction reporting is primarily about organised crime.
I’m not even sure if AUSTRAC info has been used for tax evasion prosecutions, though normal bank records have, of course.Remember, too, that gold was declared illegal to hold in the 1930s. I don’t want to fan the flames of your distrust around fiat money, but crypto hasn’t changed anything except in the fever dreams of a few technologists who imagine there is something desirable about a place with no government. The newsflash being you can already go to those places, and regardless of the mechanism of crypto or gold or something else, that kind of avoidance of government isn’t coming here.
People don’t want nil government, and having government entails laws and tax. You probably already agree with this sentiment, maybe just haven’t thought through what happens if everyone hoped out with crypto - and why that would be a disaster, and will never be allowed in democracies.
@mskeggs: There's no need to 'bail in', if government can just conjure more funny money to fix the problem. At that point, maybe house prices will inflate by 100% per year rather than the customary 25%.
If crypto is banned in democracies like China and Australia, the owners of those dangerous cryptographic private keys will simply move elsewhere.
They government is already able to sieze your currency, and gold/silver, and replace it with paper of their choosing.
If cryptocoins damage the faith in fiat, they will be banned here as well - and the policy to ban them would be in the best interests of the nation, noone will oppose them.
the general public will see bipartisan support for a law and assume some sort of conspiracy. Don't fall into that trap
Can't really ban it, you can generate money in other ways. Not just energy or buying it, we are well past that point now.
Future upgrades to bitcoin add more privacy and smart contracts, these upgrades are months off.
More rules and regulations only apply locally, crypto works globally if someone wants or needs to get money out they can.
crypto was not the only method used to get money out of China, stocks, movies and companies were used/still are used.
Chinese bought houses to store some value out of China.
I don’t really understand people who say you can’t ban it.
Right now, there are big fines or jail terms for growing all sorts of plants that live in the garden, there are big fines or jail time for having pictures on your phone that are illegal and there are big fines or jail time for hacking into a computer system.You can argue crypto goes underground and is hard to enforce, but then it becomes something a bit shady, some people do get prosecuted and it ceases to be a financial asset in the same way having a kilo of meth isn’t a financial asset when you apply for a home loan.
Governments are very practiced at implementing laws, and if they decide to, crypto is essentially finished.
The best outcome for crypto believers will be one where the state gets visibility and tax, but allows the crypto to continue to exist.Agree crypto was only one way to shift money, but I suggest that doesn’t mean that crypto will be loosely regulated.
@mskeggs: By the same logic, you assert that it'd be normal and okay for the government to arbitrarily ban anything.
@apiecost: Sure, and they do it all the time.
In my lifetime it has been calling people hateful terms or inciting violence against them, smoking in workplaces, riding in cars without a seatbelt, flammable building cladding, selling cars with poor safety features, trailing life insurance commissions, excessive credit card surcharges, toys that have unsecured batteries, pyjamas that easily catch fire, SMS advertisements that don’t allow you to stop etc, etc.The whole reason government exists is to make rules to make a better society.
People regularly disagree on what rules are needed, and if they make bad ones, sometimes get voted out.
I think it is extremely likely crypto will get extra regulation to make it harder to use for crimes and tax avoidance. The bulk of society either will think that is a good thing or won’t care.The best analogy I can give here is to consider refuse classification video games. When they began rating them like movies, gamers said, this will be bad and unworkable. Nobody cared, and some said good. So now we have laws that make it difficult to buy RC games in shops etc. If it was taken more seriously, it would be hard on a steam too.
@mskeggs: To put it another way, crypto has a substantial sovereign risk, which is why the big financial players are onlY dipping their toes in.
Crypto might end up like shady offshore tax havens. If not explicitly illegal in countries like AU, a lot of barriers to discourage it.
@compound: I understand your point, but you must concede it worked well enough to remove drugs as a legitimate asset class for investors!
I don’t doubt crypto will exist at the margins, but I expect it’s use as a means of exchange to be heavily regulated.
@mskeggs: Definitely will be regulated and will be pushed to the black/grey market as with anything that the government can't control.
I am seeing countries being locked up or heavily tied to the empirical currencies adopting it though, and with enough countries adopting the platform I could see it solving a lot of their currency problems.
As with anything cutting edge, there's always a risk. We heard it when banking was implemented online and the crowds had their argument against it. It was valid but the market does what the market does - rational or irrational - for a long as time can remember.
The disruptive technologies are here to stay, like crypto - it's too heavily tied to our institutions.
The next 6-12 months will be extremely interesting for China.
Crypto, Evergrande, Taiwan, Military tensions, Post Covid, Winter Olympics… the list goes on…
And the ripple effects will go on around the world too if your assumptions are correct.
Agreed.
The 'China Cash Crash' could be a good term for it?
'China Country Clash' perhaps?
Oh, wait - just a little too much like the CCC'P… cough sorry CCP.CCC - puppets perhaps? 🤷♂️
The shortest Asian Century on record
Maybe it's a ploy by China to deliberately weaken their currency to (re)promote their manufacturing for global markets again
China's currency is pegged to the USD, it's value is already 100% artificial. They don't need a ploy, they can lower its value by 10% tomorrow. They have relaxed the peg recently but they haven't let it go.
It has consequences, inflation sky-rockets and causes social unrest - they have essentially been living through the high inflation we are now experiencing here, for decades, hence the real estate bubble which is about to pop.
Because everyone is talking about Crypto, I was planning to invest in it to try my luck. But so far I've found it over complicated and too hard for me to understand.
I don't understand why I need to buy(in Kucoin) a currency like Bitcoin or the USDT before I can buy my desired currency. Does this mean for ATO purposes I am trading Bitcoin and the other currency I buy? Does anyone in AUS actually make any money in Crypto trading? Or just end up paying taxes and have a headache.If you're using kucoin instead of T1 exchanges it means your desired tokens are still somewhat under the radar and could have potential to grow a lot when it goes on a T1 exchange.
It's a hassle that I accept for the potential huge gain.And yes, every time you sell or trade a token, it is a taxable event. So the btc transactions would be taxable but if you traded it for a different token immediately after you bought them the taxable amount should be minimal.
(profanity) China
I’m with China on this one. It’s fair enough. All Ponzie schemes and network marketing should be banned. They produce nothing except greed and dreams of making money by doing nothing of value <helmet on for the outrage>
I tend to agree, but people will trample you on their way to hand over their money.
I think we can all take a leaf out of China's lead. They are aspiring us to do better. Rather than creating a posse of HATE, the vassal Ozzie govt should embrace China.
Hard to live life with a black and white view that everything some person or organisation does is evil and everything some other organisation or person does is pure.
Even Hitler loved his dogs.If the CCP is doing a good or a bad thing remains to be seen, and probably comes down to if you value individual liberty in China against common wealth. It is naive to think the crypto bans will impact many but some of the wealthiest in China.
For all the talk of liberty and freedom around crypto it is almost entirely the wealthy and privileged who have any involvement.
Is it me or anyone else associates crypto currencies with the fad about bartering of some years ago?
It was also going to beat the Establishment, money, the banks and anything else in between.
Didn't happen.I agree there is a similar mindset amongst the true believer foot soldiers. But bartering didn’t have the wealthy scammers floating on top pumping and dumping to cream off the little guy’s money.
The only way to ban a permissionless, trustless, and censorship proof network is to shut down the OSI L1. This is impossible unless the whole world gets together and do it at the same time.
The government can make exchanges illegal, tax the shit out of it, make it illegal for shops to accept it.
You wouldnt be able to buy it with fiat, use it, and if you did theyll want their taxThe network is a P2P protocol. It was designed to replace fiat and is being used right now by millions of users all over the world to Tx in its native coin.
https://www.blockchain.com/btc/unconfirmed-transactionsThe first time China ban BTC was around Dec 2013 when the price was $1,000. They ban it every year and the price still goes up to the right. If China can ban it nobody can.
The network doesn't need CEX to survive but the CEX needs the network to make money.
The network doesn't need shops to accept it but shops need the network if they want users to spend their coins in the shop.
The network doesn't need permission from governments to operate but the governments need the network if they want to tax the users.Piracy is a peer to peer, has almost zero repercussions for participants, yet has become massively less common in the past decade or two.
If the gov says it is illegal, it will become 99% less common straight away. Don’t kid yourself that the crypto people will rise up to demand liberty. Nearly nobody has any involvement with crypto, the mainstream view is it is shady for buying drugs, and anybody most people have met who have anything to do with crypto are weird tech dudes or grifter get rich quick types.
When Elon Musk is the most well known source of legitimacy, the PR is shot.
If crypto gets double taxed tomorrow in AU, with 20 year jail terms for avoidance, literally nobody will care after 2 days of headlines.
I don’t care one way or another, except I oppose the environmental cost of proof of work crypto, and I oppose the ponzi coins, and I oppose the unregulated transactions for criminal purposes and I oppose its use for tax avoidance.
That is a pretty substantial list of harms that will need a lot to sway the general public to accept it.@mskeggs: Would expect mass revolt if crypto was made illegal
And cash is the best form of money for criminal activity (bar privacy coins). Also, crypto is not very useful for tax avoidance. Running a restaurant is arguably a better way to avoid tax.
Crypto is the only way to own digital property and we're entering/have entered the digital age.
If you don't like it that's fine - doesn't really matter for the already wealthy and retirees, but if you're young you are going to have to explain to your kids why you missed out on the greatest transfer of wealth in history.
Where do you think young people (digitally native people) will put their money? Gen z are expected to invest $1 trillion in stocks next year. Stocks are 100 times greater in mcap than crypto. If gen z invest in crypto at a rate higher than 1/100 of what they invest in stocks, that's bullish for crypto.
@Toffees: Is this LOL analysis?
Crypto no good for criminal activities and tax avoidance. I'll transfer my cash and restaurant out of China.
Mass revolts if it is made illegal. I guess the Chinese state media is repressing these revolts.
Crypto is the only way to own digital property. OK, I'll join the people over there who won't accept money for digital property. Oh yeah, there is nobody like that.None of those claims are remotely accurate, and if you think they are, you need to do a little research.
You have certainly swallowed the koolaid.
If your investment thesis is young people will buy crypto because it's, like, swag or something, then I think you need to have a big think about how stupid you think young, sorry, "digital native" people are.This is tinkerbell speculation "if we all believe very hard, and put all our money in, then we'll all be rich, rich, rich."
But I understand your point of view. You're trying to hype the "greatest transfer of wealth in history".
Why will it happen? Because you say it will.
What benefits will it bring? Wealth, you say.
How will that happen? It just will, all it takes is people to keep putting more and more money in.
I mean, it worked for tulips.Best of luck, but if you aren't a grifter you'll be a bag holder on this one.
Napster was one of the first mainstream P2P. They killed it pretty easily (but it was privately owned).
There is no technology that uses P2P that has been adopted by the mainstream for the long term since the introduction of PC's
Windows and other OS's/app uses P2P for distribution purposes but it's not used in the same contextthe strength of crypto is in blockchain coupled with P2P
@paradise: Napster was never a decentralized P2P network protocol. Their centralization led to their downfall.
BitTorrent is a true decentralized P2P network protocol that is still being used after 20 years by millions of users.
@rektrading: perhaps in your small bubble world
i have high standards, minimum billion with lots of 3rd party app support
I've been searching for different ways to make money since retirement and besides online selling, been investing in shares, forex and more recently Crypto trading. Came across a very clever way to trade so been learning that with success even with the recent large corrections, so there is a smart way to trade, if you know how.
HODL
Obvious hold. BTC will be worth 2x or more what it currently is in 12 months, mark my words.
At least 2x.
China and the US get in a serious scuffle in the South China Sea and your BTC will be worth 10% at the most :)
Australia will the be first white country to eat a nuke from China if they think they will lose. New Zealand is the second.
Japan and South Korea will also go.
Nobody will care about BTC or dollars when 1/2 the world is radioactive.
Marked.
BTC will be worth 2x or more what it currently is in 12 months
Do you want to make that bet.
I'll take that bet.
I'll pay you 1 BTC if it doesn't 2x in 12 months. If it does then you'd pay me 1 BTC on the day it hits 2x.
You should buy 1 now at $42,000 when it's still cheap. The pill will be harder to swallow when it hits $84,000.
If you feel so confident, why you the need to get rewarded 1 btc.
You know bets are based on probability. The higher the chance of winning stake, lower rewards for that bet. Since you are the one with that much confidence (low chance of failure & low risk for you), I would say 0.25 of gain is fair enough for you.
Since I say that is unlikely, I would be risking a lot more. hence get compensated the amount until it reach the target price.
@No ONE: Confidence does not equal probability. Show us how you calculated the probability and that it is in BTC's favour. Those would be factors that affect the price, not one person's feeling towards it.
Confidence does not equal probability
I'm aware of that. One involves mathematical/statistical formula and one involves gut feelings.
Gut feeling is good enough for op to change that to 100% probability. He has got nothing to loss, only 25% of gain on profit.@[Deactivated]: Going by your history of comment, you can't control your temper. You need to be put down like a mad dog!
Words marked.
Every time China banned BTC.. Price in USD.
5/12/2013 - $1153
11/9/17 - $4122
5/2/18 - $8271
3/9/18 - $7279
22/11/19 - $7748
21/5/21 - $37174You ban something one time. If you have to ban something more than once that just shows you failed.
That's really not quite right. Every time they've "banned" something it was something to do with the process this time it is a complete ban on transactions, in other words you will no longer be able to participate.
Your dates are only valid in hindsight because if you wind back/forth 6 months you will see they go on to lose 30% each way.
However I believe cutting off the Chinese market is a good thing, we now have surety that any comments from now on will have zero effect.
This time its different.. Have heard that before.. anyways be prepared to be surprised… one fine day you will see BTC at 100k and China will ban it again..
Yep, they can still ban possessing it at all, forcing the HODLer's in China to sell.
Meh Btc at 100k is less than 3x hardly any gain to get excited about
This happens every 3 months - China is becoming more and more irrelevant in the crypto space
Buy - Stake - Hold - repeat
No way they can ban it. The more they try to ban it, the more they want it.
I think the ban might work in crypto's favour. There is talk of "regulating" crypto in a lot of countries. But know any regulation will seem like being hardline like China so I feel this may reduce the likelihood of excessive regulation in the rest of the world
It looks like China is serious about this ban. UNI and SUSHI are popping off on the news that Huobi is closing Chinese accounts. Bullish news indeed.
Cut off one head and two more will grow back.
Dydx.. We are past the point of needing exchanges.
Heard of it but never used it.
The crypto game is just another Ponzi scheme.
Yeh people design a new coin, make a few forum posts hyping up its prospects/discuss how it's better than existing coins. ??? Profit
It's like a pyramid scheme. Those already with a coin interest tell others to buy in and boost the coins profile. Property, ETFs and lithium stocks are the holy trinity
Nice own goal lol
After reading the comments, now I'm confused about whether to hold or sell my crypto.
Hold, long term its still going up regardless of what China does.
don't be the last person to hold onto shitcoin bags
I would like to repeat, Better late than never. Get out of this useless over-hyped coins before you lose everything.
Have a look at the below video for some info on why this is not gonna last.
https://youtu.be/iomRREashI0Really, Techlead is the reason to get out?
MILLION 🚀 🚀 moon.
Techlead just talks about one aspect. Data.
Forget about him. Explore yourself. There are enough red flags.
Seek and you shall receive the information.
If you buy the dip 30 minutes after the FUD “Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt” news you would be up 5.3% already. 56.48k>58.63k AUD
How can they ban P2P trading?
They can ban P2P trading by turning off the internet as they did in Myanmar. That is the only technical way to shut down a P2P network.
The non-technical way is to beat people up until they give up the seed words.
The latter is something the Australian police are good at.
https://twitter.com/FiveTimesAugust/status/14414272561324769…My question was a bit sarcastic though.
Can’t ban people from creating off exchange wallets and do P2P trading/underground remittance to foreign exchanges through intermediaries.
exchange regulations
My understanding is, they have criminalized the exchange of cryptocurrencies, but not possession of them. So if you hodl them, its fine, but the second you exchange it for something, eg cash or services, that's illegal.
Oh no.
Anyway…
China banning crypto is inevitable. It is as inevitable as the crypto market being bigger and better in the next decade and the market cap of Bitcoin eventually overtaking gold.
The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is all about control, once you see their actions through this lens, you will understand why they take certain actions.
With the roll out of the e-CNY, their version of the CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currency/Coin), they'd be pretty stupid to not outright ban Bitcoin and other cryptos. Given a choice, who would use e-CNY over Bitcoin, ETH and other decentalised coins? With the e-CNY their complete take over of their citizen's financial lives is complete. Now they have absolute and complete control, they see what you spend, they can cut you off or confiscate your money at any time. The blockchain which their CBDC runs on is centralised, they can do whatever they like.
As for the impact to the wide crypto market, I think it is quite bullish, just like their ban on mining which removed the threat of centralizing mining hashrate in China. The rest of the world is moving towards embracing cryptos, so its fine. El Salvador adopting Bitcoin is just the first domino. Western financial regulators are usually aligned, to prevent firms from moving around to different western jurisdictions to escape regulator scrutiny. The fact that Canada has already approved a Bitcoin and Ethereum ETF means that it is only a matter of time before the US, Australia and UK follows suit.
There will be various bumps and falls along the way, the road from $1 Bitcoin to $44k Bitcoin was not smooth at all, the road to $1 mil Bitcoin will not be any better, however we will get there eventually, it is inevitable.
For those nay sayers who keep predicting the demise of Bitcoin, have a read of the various Bitcoin Obituaries over the years here, https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/. Its all the same, just the number for the price is different. Bitcoin will keep smashing expectations.
Read up on what was said about cars early on when they were first invented. Read about the internet as well, so many people called it a fad. The same is true for Bitcoin and other cryptos. Those who take the effort to educate themselves, will be very rich, just like those visionaries who saw the value of cars and the internet early on in their adoption lifecycle.
What happened to you, China? You used to be cool!
I hope India also follows suit and bans this nonsense.
With two of the largest economies putting an end to this useless sh#tcoin, hopefully it will bring people to their correct senses.I hope you are not hording the ultimate sh#tcoins, USD, AUD, any fiat coin.
Oh Yes, I am doing exactly that.
Looking forward to a bright future. Buying whatever I need with AUD.I buy whatever I need with AUD, but none of my investments are in AUD. I'm not investing in trash. I will gladly give you trash in exchange for goods and services though. :)
@techlead: Did I tell you about my investments?
Chill mate. Why are you so jumpy?. Enjoy your investment, And yeah, Keep your trash to yourself. Please.
I don't usually take into account actions of countries that commit several human rights violations (organ harvesting, concentration camps, slave labour…etc) when making my financial decisions. So no, I don't care if China bans it.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Chinese government is doing the exact same thing as Elon Musk.
The Chinese government has been accumulating Bitcoin for themselves while continuing to ban their citizens from trading digital currencies over the past 8 years.
They're the 3rd biggest BTC hodler on record with 194,775 BTC that accounts for 0.928% of the total supply.
https://www.kevinrooke.com/bitcoinTheir wallets haven't been doxed but they're somewhere on the top 100 rich list.
https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.…
I mean, cocaine has soared in value since it was made illegal, so you could definitely say criminalising the asset put upward pressure on prices.
But carrying weight is a risky trade, even though everyone can agree the returns might be there.