How Much Will an Electric Car Save You?

BluebirdV on 03/09/2021 - 13:44
Last edited 03/09/2021 - 19:05 by 1 other user

Hi guys,

I am curious how much an electric car will save in terms of servicing and maintenance costs? Assuming ownership over 15 years. I remember in the NRMA magazine they had a full breakdown of the cost of ownership of different cars with the cheapest around $100 a week to own over it's lifetime and the more expensive models around $500 a week over their lifetime. Also how much will it save of fuel costs? I guess this depends also on the state with some having a tax on electric vehicles.

Also, how far can we expect electric car prices to fall? There is a Chinese model expected to arrive next year for around $35,000. Over it's lifetime would it work out cheaper to own this car than a $15,000-$20,000 petrol model? Assuming petrol prices will go sky high when petrol cars are being phased out.

Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

  • MS Paint on 03/09/2021 - 13:45
    +23

    So many variables

    • spackbace on 03/09/2021 - 14:04
      +3

      So many questions

      • SF3 on 03/09/2021 - 14:23
        +4

        So many not yet decided bait and switch new policies and taxes.

      • Hackney on 15/09/2021 - 09:47
        -1

        So many answers.

        • [Deactivated] on 15/12/2021 - 17:08

          So many opinions.

    • jacross on 04/09/2021 - 12:50

      Yeah indeed. This is a worthy thing to analyse but it is much more complicated than I think an OzBargain thread can handle.

    • Geekless Belle on 17/09/2021 - 09:48

      So many variables

      And yet, Op forgot the most important one : love! A thousand electric cars could run on how you feel when you know that the person you like likes you back. It feels incredible. Like it shouldn't be
      possible. Of all the happy coincidences to ever exist, it's one of the happiest😊

      Anyway, back to your question. A legal challenge to Victoria's controversial EV tax was lodged in the High Court yesterday. Depending on the outcome, you might end up saving an extra 2 - 2.5c/km.

  • Bafranz on 03/09/2021 - 13:46
    +3

    Cheaper & cheaper as they phase out combustion engines just like leaded petrol

  • Cluster on 03/09/2021 - 13:52
    +8

    Don't forget to add a 2.5c/km tax to the EV. Two Australian states are champing at the bit to add the extra cost.

    I would love an EV to replace my diesel hatchback, but at the moment it just doesn't make economic sense.

    5l/100km at $1.30 is $6.50
    An EV usually consumes around 11kwh/100km, and I pay 30c so that's $3.30.

    Great. Now add a 2.5c/km tax to the EV, and it's $6.50 versus $5.80.

    My car also has ridiculously cheap comprehensive insurance at $380/pa. I used the same details for a Tesla 3 and got a $1500 quote.

    I would love a Tesla 3 and will probably buy one, one day. But I won't buy it for economic reasons. I'll buy it simply because I want one.

    EDIT: Looks like Victoria implemented the tax already.
    https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/victoria-passes-ev-tax-…

    • netjock on 03/09/2021 - 15:46
      +2

      Your point is right. In the end it will end up being zero difference to ICE.

      Because every business that is in business now needs to make money in the future. It might just migrate from service departments to the manufacturer of the car. That is why you pay $60k up front for a Model 3 vs $30k for a Corolla sedan.

      Government then still wants their piece. Insurance company wants their piece (because if you can afford a car twice the price you can afford the insurance). Once everyone is plugged into the grid and want to pull 30kwh to recharge their car when their solar only generates half that then power prices will go up (moving the cash from middle east to local energy generators).

      That said. Some people will benefit (because there is anomalies and they can screw the majority but not everyone).

      • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 15:47

        my question would be then would you like your money to shift to the middle east or would you like to let it stay with local and presumably, hopefully renewable sources?

        Further to that do you like paying 42c excise per litre?

        • netjock on 03/09/2021 - 15:50
          +2

          my question would be then would you like your money to shift to the middle east or would you like to let it stay with local and presumably, hopefully renewable sources?

          You know wind turbines are made by European company, and solar panels are most likely from China or the US.

          It doesn't matter because you've already shifted $30k to Tesla. You think middle east people don't need to eat, house their people and buy expensive property in western countries. You'll just end up probably topping them up with foreign aid or arms money.

          Further to that do you like paying 42c excise per litre?

          $30k buys a lot of petrol. If you can get 5% dividend I would say it pays for most people's annual petrol bill plus you get capital appreciation. Maybe invest it in a green fund.

          • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 15:57
            -3

            @netjock: i generally have no problem with EU US or even China products.

            i generally do have an issue with anything from the middle east including israel and opec

            its not my concern how any country not even australia tries to feed or house their people

            i think some people here have shifted this to a tesla vs camry corolla thing when the OP didnt state that but even so, a person down there pointed out that by some studies, a model 3 vs camry tco model over 5yrs

            https://blog.decryption.net.au/t/total-cost-of-ownership-tes…

            i would question this but its there

      • [Deactivated] on 03/09/2021 - 15:54
        -2

        It's like you think comparing a $30k Corolla and a $60k Model 3 is a legitimate argument. No one cross shops the two. The Model 3 competes with the 3 series and the C class. It's better than both. It's cheaper than both.

        You're winning from day 1.

    • pangwen on 04/09/2021 - 08:12
      +2

      Depends where you live - $1.30/L is a fairly low petrol price (currently bottoms out in the cycle here in brisbane at about $1.39/L), and 30c/kWh is high for Brisbane too (my anytime rate is about 16.5c/kWh, and even those with inflated usage rates due to a high solar FiT plan are paying 24.915c/kWh (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/538080))

  • popsiee on 03/09/2021 - 13:53
    +10

    Nothing the depreciations kills all savings !

  • Cheeper on 03/09/2021 - 13:54
    +3

    Battery life is one main factor.. some claim very good experiences..
    https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-ba…
    Then again how would the used car buyer feel about buying an electric car say 5 or even 10 years old? That is what will determine the depreciation rate and detract from any estimated savings.
    There are many more factors. Wait an see….

    • spackbace on 03/09/2021 - 14:05
      +7

      Then again how would the used car buyer feel about buying an electric car say 5 or even 10 years old?

      Not to mention the constant advancements in EV tech. Your 5-10yo EV car could be a dinosaur in comparison to cars available at the time

      I believe we're still in the early adopter phase, give it 5-10yrs for the tech to fully mature with quicker charging and far longer range

      • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 15:45

        10yrs it would be hard to predict but we have some precedence at the 5yr mark.

        Give what we know about battery tech I dont think things will be that different in 2025/6.

        We're talking what? A 1,000km Tesla Model S?

        You can go on carsales and cruise 2014-15 Tesla Model S cars and see how they track.

        Now I get that the Model S is a quasi luxury car and Tesla did themselves a favour by not changing body shape… to me a 2015 Model S looks the same a current one.

        Those old model S cars on carsales looks like dreamers to me but it seems like the Model S ticks most boxes for me not that I want to spend $75k on a 5yr old Tesla.

        2015 Tesla Model S 85 Auto
        $76,800*
        Excl. Govt. Charges
        40,641 km
        Hatch
        AC278kW
        Electric (range: 502 km)

        500km is more than enough for me.

        If I'm not buying at 500km then 1,000km isnt going to matter to me.

        • spackbace on 03/09/2021 - 16:28
          +4

          But that's Tesla. No point talking Tesla, if also talking about Chinese EV's.

          What if $75k now buys you 1000km+, yet in 5-10yrs a $40k car does 1000km+, how would your Tesla resale look then? Likely pretty bad

          • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 16:41
            -1

            @spackbace: in 10yrs time I'm not going to care. Any car is effectively worthless barring a porsche 911.

            To quote donald rumsfeld, i'm going on known unknowns, you're going on unknown unknowns.

            We dont have much to go on as far as china evs go. The MG EV that's $45k w/ 300km range?

            I cannot even begin to imagine what a China EV in 2025 looks like.

            I can guess what a Tesla looks like.

            Going on your example, if a 2021 $75k tesla does 1,000km now, and a 2026 China $40k EV also does 1,000km then I would imagine the resale on a Tesla is still going to be something like $35k? no? I can imagine Tesla have enough market cachet that the China cars are irrelevant to them. And thats assuming China can catch up to full self driving and whatever Tesla is already doing now.

            I'm not trying to pent up Tesla, I'm not a fanboy but we already know that Tesla have been doing this since 2012.

            Look as my past post history. I'm clearly a fan of China EVs but Tesla's track record is there.

            • spackbace on 03/09/2021 - 16:46
              +3

              @tonyjzx: There's so many who are already developing EV cars that it's not just a question of Tesla vs China, not over a 10yr period. Don't simplify my comment by just talking about those 2.

              Tesla are already known for having shoddy build quality and questionable luxuriousness, the only things going for them are the EV drive-trains themselves and the brand's image. Once there's more of an equal playing field in terms of what you get for your money, then things will change

              • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 16:53
                -2

                @spackbace: The problem is you keep expanding what your argument is.

                You first start in general terms. Then you dont like it when I talk Tesla and the only car on the market now, the MG.

                Then you dont like it when I dont acknowledge there are other mysterious players in China that you dont mention either.

                I dont disagree with your assessment of Tesla but I do disagree with your notion that there's going to be incredible advances coming out of China.

                If you know so much about all these incredible China brands/models coming out I'd love to hear it. Genuinely. China cars do fascinate me. China EVs even more but I dont have your enthusiam but yeah, maybe you know some new models I dont know about.

                • spackbace on 03/09/2021 - 17:12
                  +2

                  @tonyjzx:

                  The problem is you keep expanding what your argument is.

                  No I don't

                  Read my comments in isolation

                • cloudy on 03/09/2021 - 18:02

                  @tonyjzx:

                  but I do disagree with your notion that there's going to be incredible advances coming out of China

                  Each to their own, all opinions about the future is valid since no one can possibly know with certainty.

                  But I would hesitate to underestimate the future, especially when we talk tech. And cars nowadays is all about tech it seems.

      • Ade99 on 04/09/2021 - 08:23

        15 years ago an EV could not travel 26 miles…….

        • Mistredo on 15/12/2021 - 12:56
          +1

          Electric cars in 1920 did more than that…

  • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 14:15
    +2

    lets get a few variables fixed

    just say you have the average $30-$35,000 car like a camry or medium suv like a rav4 outlander crv etc.

    just say you replace it with a chinese ev and assume its the same cost and same fixed admin costs, eg. effectively $2k covered for rego, green slip, comprehensive

    for the sake of the argument either car is paid off so you're just up for maintenance, in this case $300-$400 fixed per year on the petrol car, less on the ev

    2.5c ev tax = 20,000km = $500

    = 385km a week = $57.75 a week in petrol at $1.50 given 10l/100km

    = ~$3,000 a year petrol

    so minus the $500 ev levy = $2,500 to spend on electricity

    I dont know how much your household spends on electricity but an example here would be something like $400 a quarter for a 2 storey house in syd., say $1,200 a year

    I cannot imagine you would spend another $2,500 on charging the car?

    That's assuming you do not have panels on your roof.

    Also assuming your lifestyle means you dont need to drive more than 300-400km on one car charge and the chinese ev can do that.

    Tell me my maths is wrong, people love telling me that at work.

    • Stewardo on 03/09/2021 - 14:36

      It depends how these cars are taxed in the future, how much electricity costs and is taxed in the future and how much the oil cartels sell the oil for, knowing there is an alternative option that is increasingly competitive.

      “The recent federal Budget shows Australian motorists will pay over $11 billion in net fuel excise this financial year, and $49.3 billion over the next four years. For the typical household, this year’s fuel excise bill will be $1,188.”

    • netjock on 03/09/2021 - 15:53
      +5

      Probably a new battery at 10 years.

      Camry you can probably drive for 20 years no problems.

      • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 16:03
        +1

        i would probably have questions about this one

        the Model S is just getting onto 10yrs so there would be data out there on high km units running, I guess, the old 18650 cells

        they're doing better than i would expect

        also people love this thing where you can drive a camry for 10yrs 15yrs 20yrs

        if i'm say a typical 35y.o person, why the hell would i want to drive a camry until i'm 55 y.o.???

        if I did, I really really really stuff up my finances.

        I get that people do do that. For some a car is just a car is a fridge. If it goes from A to B then its good but geez… putting this into perspective, do I want to keep a driving 2001 Camry today that I bought just before 9/11 happened?

        • netjock on 03/09/2021 - 19:30
          +1

          if I did, I really really really stuff up my finances.

          Do we do price difference Camry vs Model S invested in super compounding at 7% for 20 years?

          For the average working person it is the difference between a decent retirement and non retirement.

  • tonyjzx on 03/09/2021 - 14:31
    -1

    when i lay the numbers out like that whats most shocking to me is that pretty much every everyone EVERYONE spends something like $50 plus a week on petrol… i asked a few guys at work, i mean that's what car guys talk about… it seems the basics, getting to work, going out (I know prior to covid) shopping, visiting parents, dropping off kids etc.

    then $50-$100 is not an unusual thing

    i think we are used to that… when I see petrol cheap I just fill up and pull out the $100 note or use the card and eh… I dont think about it

    my daily is a crappy old 2.5 litre xtrail and i remember how much it cost to fill up a V8 etc.

    so on that alone, if you never need to fill up again and you somehow manage to charge your EV then that's all the motivation I need

    lets not even get into the zero tail pipe noxious gasses thing

    • Ade99 on 04/09/2021 - 08:26

      At the moment a tank would seem to last the whole lock down, with a limit of 5km the fuel will "go off" before I can use it all.

      • tonyjzx on 16/09/2021 - 12:23

        most of the people i know are essential, no wfh

  • Euphemistic on 03/09/2021 - 14:35
    +1

    Your piece of string is twice as long as half of it.

    You need to do some sums on YOUR usage case. Maintenance is typically less on an EV, no oil to change. Do you buy new or lease or used? How many kms do you travel? When will you charge? do you pay for that electricity? have you got solar?

    At the moment, with no calculations I’d be surprised if the additional cost and potential tester depreciation (battery degradation) probably are fairly equivalent to petrol and servicing costs.

    I suspect that most current EV buyers are buying to reduce environmental impact ICE vehicles. (Yes, even with coal fired sparks an EV is less polluting than an ICE car over time).

    • ZachBlasphemy on 03/09/2021 - 21:55
      +1

      Just a small thing I wanted to bring up, EVs do require transmission oil changes per it's particular servicing schedule. Not that traditional oil changes are expensive.

      EVs still require tyres, brakes, brake fluid, coolant and cabin filters.

      I still like the idea of an EV, people still just need to maintain their vehicles and an EV won't prevent that.

      • Jackson on 04/09/2021 - 00:09

        Nissan Leaf service schedule goes up to 120000 miles/193000km and does have changing the transmission fluid as a service item. On that note the coolant also doesn't need changing for 15 years. So effectively the only fluid you need to change is brake fluid, and even then some people say they get 15 or 20 years out of brake fluid if the system is sealed and s doesn't have any issues

      • Euphemistic on 04/09/2021 - 05:40
        +1

        True, but all the EV service items are likely to be several years between replacement, unlike ICE oil changes every 6-12 months. Ev servicing costs will be significantly lower.

      • turbochris on 04/09/2021 - 11:47

        Here is the actual servicing requirements from Tesla:

        https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/support/car-maintenance

        No transmission oil change.

        • ZachBlasphemy on 04/09/2021 - 12:18
          -2

          Tesla aren't the only ones making EVs and there's plenty of services cars need that aren't "required" from the manufacturer. I also wouldn't look to Tesla as a beacon of how cars should be manufactured and supported.

          https://youtu.be/dMlngPWEbQ4 Hyundai mechanic at a dealership doing a Kona EV "reduction gear" oil change on schedule and recommends doing it sooner than what is written. As it's an EV the naming is different but it's an assembly with gearing full of oil. I know most don't have a traditional transmission but you get the point.

          Some people care about the vehicles they own and sometimes that means performing preventative services to ensure their car lasts longer.

          Again, I'm not anti-EV, I just want people to look after their vehicles.

    • htc on 05/09/2021 - 11:52

      I like you point out less maintenance, like save cost on no oil change, does the battery last a long time or only 10 years before requiring replacement?

      • Euphemistic on 05/09/2021 - 14:03

        Time will tell, but given manufacturers are offering 10y warranty they should last beyond that. Degradation is real, but shouldn’t be a problem with well designed charge and heat management - and that is improving all the time.

  • Orico on 03/09/2021 - 14:58
    -1

    They cost too much now. It will cost me more over 5 years.

  • Jackson on 03/09/2021 - 16:32

    It will save you heaps. e.g if you are keep to get in on the cheaper side, a nissan leaf 30kW about 2 years old can be imported for under $20k or so I'm told, and then you aren't paying for petrol or servicing, that's got to be saving you at least $2k/year if you are a regular driver (avg. 15k km/y). If you add that up over 10 years it's a free car. It doesn't get any better than that

    • BluebirdV on 03/09/2021 - 20:42

      Sounds great. How do I import one at the moment?

      • Jackson on 03/09/2021 - 20:58

        There's heaps of jap importers, but there's also a couple that are dedicated to EVs because of the sad state of affairs with EVs in Australia. Try a search and I will have a look and get back to you

        • BluebirdV on 03/09/2021 - 20:59

          Is this a good website to start? https://www.evolutionaustralia.com.au/nissan-leaf-buying-imp…

          • Jackson on 03/09/2021 - 21:01

            @BluebirdV: Yeah they are ok, there's even a coop which bring in a bunch at a time, if you are happy to plan ahead 6 months or so. Check the Nissan Leaf Australia Facebook group, lots of good info there

            • BluebirdV on 03/09/2021 - 21:04

              @Jackson: Great, thanks. I guess the 2018 onwards - the ZE1 would be the pick of the bunch if you can get it for $20k.

              • Jackson on 03/09/2021 - 21:29

                @BluebirdV: I doubt you'd get that price from evolution, but maybe from the other mob

          • Jackson on 03/09/2021 - 21:03

            @BluebirdV: https://www.goodcar.co/

            Try these guys too

            • htc on 05/09/2021 - 11:57

              @Jackson: Thanks, for the imported car from jap, would the language in the head unit changeable to English? I read from YouTube, lots of car mechanic recommend getting a brand new electric car as it is more reliable, if something is wrong, it will be very expensive to fix, what is your take on this?

    • pegaxs on 04/09/2021 - 17:34
      +2

      a nissan leaf 30kW about 2 years old can be imported for under $20k or so I'm told

      A 2019 Nissan Leaf fully imported and complied for under $20k. Who ever “told” you that is pulling your leg. Most of the auctions start around the $15~20k mark. Then there is about $3k shipping, $2k compliance, $2~3k GST and allow more for other fees like terminal fees, cleaning fees, broker fees, booking fees, import approval fees…

      You’re not getting a 2019 Nissan Leaf into Australia for “under $20k”… because, if you could, the market would be flooded with them.

      • Jackson on 04/09/2021 - 18:52
        +1

        Sorry, I was a bit lazy with the "couple", the last guy who got one said 2017, so 4 years old, but still low kms being jap and battery hardly worn

        • htc on 05/09/2021 - 13:11

          Hi Jackson, have you bought an ev imported from Japan? Tell us about your experience if you have.

      • htc on 05/09/2021 - 11:59

        Also insurance fee for shipping the car, is it true if you don't buy insurance, if the car got lost at sea, you will lose the car?

        • bobs burgers on 05/09/2021 - 12:44

          No, it's not lost, it will just need to be collected from the bottom of the sea

  • Series4Episode10 on 03/09/2021 - 16:38

    If you leave your car at home and you loaned to buy it, the extra cost of the vehicle would probably never be realised during it's expected life, if the vehicle was reliable and you kept it many many years it may return your investment in running costs depending on the original cost, you would need to take into account many variables including the cost of charging, whether any solar system attached to your home or business could charge it and whether you could use the cars stored charge to power your home if you are on a smart meter that charges higher charges during the periods where grid usage is high, you would need to do your own calculations and take into account several factors, or just buy it because that's what you want to do!

    • netjock on 03/09/2021 - 19:32

      Even if you didn't take out a loan you have a depreciating asset vs even buying the share index you get 3% dividends. It is the opportunity cost.

  • pegaxs on 03/09/2021 - 16:42
    +1

    Not as much as you think… I did a post on comparing the cost a while ago

    InB4 all the Tesla owners claiming that their Tesla paid for itself in fuel savings alone in just 2 years…

    • mapax on 03/09/2021 - 17:59
      +3

      Surely for those Tesla owners who fuel their cars on nothing but smugness that 2 years isn’t entirely unrealistic?

    • netjock on 03/09/2021 - 19:34
      +2

      Same owners that believe Elon is selling FSD for $10k on a $60k car that will be worth $600k when FSD turns it into a robo taxi.

      Problem is it still isn't working so first generation model S will be on club plates by the time they do get it working.

    • Boogerman on 04/09/2021 - 08:47
      -2

      Here an Australian scenario found that a Tesla Model 3 is cheaper over 5 years than a Toyota Camry
      But most people are too stupid to see or think beyond the sticker price. I would happily bet $10,000 that the majority of these short term thinking people are conservative voters
      https://insideevs.com/features/521424/tesla-model3-camry-hyb…

      Additionally, the Camry has nothing like the Model 3 autopilot, so you could argue its more likely to get in an accident, which costs excess fees & increased insurance rates in several subsequent years. However, although this is logically intuitive (maybe not to conservatives) I am not aware of any pertinent quantifiable data

      • pegaxs on 04/09/2021 - 12:28

        God damn it, I just had 3 pages typed out and lost it all because fat fingered the F5 key… Anyway, here I go again…

        You need to do a video where it covers Australian conditions, not the USA where prices for these cars are very very different, So, I'm going to break it down now "for 'straya"

        Let's compare the two vehicles on price vs difference vs economy, etc… I am going to give the Tesla the best chance to win by comparing their cheapest model to the most expensive model in the Camry range. I am also going to assume that the Tesla can fill up for free and that there are no servicing costs, because that's what all the fanbois carry on with… ("lol @ fuel and servicing costs. What are they??" Every Tesla fanboi, ever.) and I am going to base it over a 5 year period (Average length of "new" car ownership in Australia)

        Costs:
        Purchase Price: (Drive away prices were sourced from the respective manufacturers website with the same postcode used for regional NSW)
        Camry Hybrid SL in White: $51,950 Drive Away (Top of the line.)

        Tesla Model 3: $64,660 (In white, bottom of the range)

        Camry in front by $12,710

        Insurance: (50yo male, regional NSW, no accidents, wholly owned, personal use, etc etc. random same insurers quote.)
        Camry: $1,079

        Tesla: $1,449

        Camry in front by $310 for first year. Averaged down to $275/y difference over 5 years for $1,375ish
        Total: $12,710 + $1,375. Camry up by $14,085

        Servicing Costs:
        Camry: $195 fixed price, 12 months (approx $1,000 over 5 years)

        Tesla: LOL. WhO sErViCeZ Ev'S??? $0 (Even though there are servicing costs for a Tesla)

        Total: $14,085 - $1,000. Camry up by $13,085

        Depreciation: To be fair to both vehicles, all figures were pulled form Redbook for both vehicles, using 2019 model "new" prices with todays "highest" trade in valuation. (InB4: LoL. tEsLaZ SeLL fOr MoRe SeCoNd HaNd ThAn ThEy dO NeW!!!11!1…)
        Camry Hybrid SL (White);
        New: $41,590
        Trade in: $32,900
        Loss: $8,690 (lost ~21% of its value)

        Tesla Model 3;
        New: $66,000
        Trade in: $39,600
        Loss: $26,400 (lost ~40% of it's value)

        Camry in front by $17,710 after 2~3 years of ownership. (let's assume neither car falls in value for the next 2 years or if it does, it's about the same)
        Total: $13,085 + $17,710. Camry is up $30,795

        Fuel costs:
        Camry: 22km/L (or 4.5L/100km in dumbarse) PULP. (Working on $2/L to allow for inflation/price cycles/tax/anything)
        Average distance/year 15,000km.
        15,000 / 22 = 681 litres of fuel per year
        681L x $2 = $1,363/y
        $1,363 x 5 years = About $6820

        Tesla: LOL. WhO PaYz FoR fUeL??? $0 (Even though there are charging costs for a Tesla)

        Excluding depreciation; Camry still in front.
        Total: $13,085 - $6,820 = $6,265 ahead after 5 years.

        Including depreciation; Camry WAY in front.
        Total: $30,795 - $6,820 = $23,975 after 5 years.

        Again, I could blow this WAY out of the water by comparing a base model Camry Hybrid ($37,360 Drive Away) to a base model Tesla Model 3.

        And as for that "autopilot" feature. Toyota has a very similar system in their Lane Trace Assist and Safety sense package…. And this autopilot… that isn't the same one that has been causing Teslas to crash into emergency vehicles, is it? Sounds like a GREAT feature…

        And you can just PayPal me the $10,000 through "Friends and Family" or if Osko is easier?

        • Boogerman on 04/09/2021 - 20:55
          -2

          Redbook is totally wrong with resale values. Model X is under by about $20K to $30K
          And then there’s a thing known as real world fuel efficiency - my Prius was advertised 3.9/100km. I got around 6/100km
          I’ll keep my 10K
          LOL

          • gromit on 05/09/2021 - 14:44

            @Boogerman: Redbook is not wrong, Redbook is NOT resale value, it is tradein value. Tradein value is always well below what you could sell it for, this applies to all vehicles.

            • Boogerman on 06/09/2021 - 08:09

              @gromit: Yes they are wrong. There is both private & trade in price guides.
              For Tesla they are way under reality

              • pegaxs on 13/09/2021 - 07:26

                @Boogerman: If that is the case, then they are also wrong on Camry price guides, so the maths remains the same.

                • Boogerman on 13/09/2021 - 08:29
                  -2

                  @pegaxs: No, your maths are out.
                  Camry SL prices are ~ $11,000 loss between used 2019 price & new 2021 price
                  Tesla SR+ prices are ~ $2,000 loss between used 2019 price & new 2021 price
                  (Note that's 2 years of depreciation, not 5. That said, EVs last longer than ICEVs - so a true comparison should really be 10 or 20 years, but the paradigm shift is probably beyond the intellectual grasp of your average ICEV owner)

                  And the advanced driver assistance system on the Toyota is a pile of dung compared to Tesla autopilot (which can be used on single lane winding mountain roads, as well as throughout city streets)

                  • pegaxs on 13/09/2021 - 22:31
                    +1

                    @Boogerman: No… if the Tesla price is wrong… the Camry price is wrong to the same degree. This is why I used “trade in prices” and not “what idiots have them advertised on Carsales for” prices. It used hard searchable data, not made up Tesla fanboi figures.

                    I also made note of it only being 2 years and not 5, as there is no data on a 5yo Model 3, if you actually cared to read what I wrote. But at the 5 year point, the depreciation would be about the same trajectory on both vehicles.

                    And I did the whole comparison over 5 years, because that’s what you said and what Tesla fanboys always trot out… (“a tEsLa WiLL pAy FoR iTsELf iN 3~5 yEArZ”)

                    As for EV’s outlasting ICE cars… yeah, I’m not convinced. How’s that currently working out for Nissan Leaf owners?? Plenty of 20+yo ICE cars out there that people are still using as daily driver (even shitbox Vectras, Barinas and Peugeots.) but I’m happy to revisit this in 20 years…

                    !settimer +20years * check in on EV reliability vs. ICE

                    And this “autopilot”… the same one that causes Tesla cars to kill their drivers and that Tesla is currently being actively investigated over by US authorities? Is Toyota being investigated over their fatalities related to their “pile of dung” system?

                    Get off the Kool Musk Aid.

                    • Boogerman on 14/09/2021 - 09:27
                      -1

                      @pegaxs: You've replied with a lot……..of nothing. Apart from your response being not current (Nissan Leaf….LOL)
                      Get off the Koch Bros Aid

                      • pegaxs on 14/09/2021 - 11:08

                        @Boogerman:

                        Apart from your response being not current (Nissan Leaf….LOL)

                        You stated that EV's will outlast ICE vehicles, quote;

                        That said, EVs last longer than ICEVs, so a true comparison should really be 10 or 20 years

                        The Nissan Leaf IS current, as there are no 20 year old Nissan Leafs in existence, so we are technically still within their "20 year life span", and there is no way an older Leaf is going to "last longer" than an equivalent ICE vehicle. There is a known issues with these cars (Google "Leaf battery degradation") that after a certain amount of time/charging cycles, (not even km in some cases.) where the battery degrades to a point where the car is basically an economic write off due to the cost of the battery replacement. This is on a vehicle that is about 6 to 9 years old, not the "20" you are claiming.

                        For contrast, here is a list of roughly 4,100 ICE vehicles that are for sale that are 20 or more years old. These are just the ones for sale, this does not include all the 20+ year old cars still in service.

                        You've replied with a lot……..of nothing.

                        Says the guy with no facts and no counter points other than made up statistics and confirmation bias.

                        Don't get me wrong, I am very pro EV. I think they are great and the earth and environment needs as much help as we can give it and EV's are a step in the right direction. I have dedicated my next car and motorcycle to both be electric and I am not buying anything else unless it is electric.

                        But on the flip side, what I also am is anti-bullshit. I don't let some electric cult leading messiah influence my thinking. I don't buy into the whole "Electric Jesus" cult of bullshit, because the math just doesn't work out at the moment. In the future it will and when it does, we will all be able to collectively laugh at the dinosaur juice powered peons, but that point in time isn't now, and no amount of confirmation bias or Stockholm Syndrome is going to change that.

                        • Boogerman on 14/09/2021 - 13:24
                          +1

                          @pegaxs: Confirmation bias…LOL. Uses a newspaper report regarding a few accidents of cars on autopilot to suggest the system is useless.
                          Let me repeat - TOYOTA'S ADAS SYSTEM IS A PILE OF STEAMING DUNG BY COMPARISON.
                          As for the Nissan Leaf, an APPLES v APPLES comparison would be to compare against, say, the Model T Ford since that was an EARLY MASS MARKET PRODUCED ICEV.
                          FFS.

                          • spackbace on 15/09/2021 - 11:14
                            +2

                            @Boogerman:

                            Let me repeat - TOYOTA'S ADAS SYSTEM IS A PILE OF STEAMING DUNG BY COMPARISON.

                            And the advanced driver assistance system on the Toyota is a pile of dung compared to Tesla autopilot (which can be used on single lane winding mountain roads, as well as throughout city streets)

                            https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/support/autopilot

                            What are the limitations of Autopilot?
                            Many factors can impact the performance of Autopilot, causing the system to be unable to function as intended. These include, but are not limited to: poor visibility (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.), bright light (due to oncoming headlights, direct sunlight, etc.), mud, ice, snow, interference or obstruction by objects mounted onto the vehicle (such as a bike rack), obstruction caused by applying excessive paint or adhesive products (such as wraps, stickers, rubber coating, etc.) onto the vehicle; narrow, high curvature or winding roads, a damaged or misaligned bumper, interference from other equipment that generates ultrasonic waves, extremely hot or cold temperatures.

                            Lol

                            Side note, new model Camry will even brake on the corners if it detects you're going to fast for that steering angle. Though I doubt you've actually driven one

                            Besides, both features require you to have your hands on the wheel… Are you that bad of a driver that you need a self-driving car, while your hands are on the wheel?

                            • Boogerman on 15/09/2021 - 12:14

                              @spackbace: I often use autopilot on a single lane winding mountain road.

                              Mod: Removed inflammatory comment

                              Boogerman on 15/09/2021 - 12:14 (Collapsed - Offtopic. Show)
                              • spackbace on 15/09/2021 - 12:17
                                +2

                                @Boogerman: Then you shouldn't have your license.

                                • Boogerman on 15/09/2021 - 19:38

                                  @spackbace: One day in the not too distant future humans will be banned from driving.
                                  And people like you will whinge about your ‘freedoms being taken away’

                                  • spackbace on 15/09/2021 - 20:07
                                    +1

                                    @Boogerman: Lol or it could be more that safety features like that are designed to compensate for those who lack the skills to drive, while some of as are perfectly capable?

                                    First thing I turn off in a car is lane centring.

                                    Maybe you should stick to taking the bus if you can't manage a car?

                                    • Boogerman on 16/09/2021 - 09:07

                                      @spackbace: Conservative voters = fear of change. The true definition of 'snowflake'

                                      • spackbace on 16/09/2021 - 12:08

                                        @Boogerman: Wtf you on about? 😂

                                        Talk about deflection lol apparently turning lane centring off defines who I vote for

                                        Yeah well done champ

                                        • Boogerman on 16/09/2021 - 17:06

                                          @spackbace: Fossil fuel cars will die.
                                          Right to drive will die.
                                          The evolution of homo sapiens is towards greater executive function
                                          Deal with change, snowflake

                                          • spackbace on 16/09/2021 - 17:08

                                            @Boogerman: You're all kinds of special 😂

                                            • Boogerman on 16/09/2021 - 18:02

                                              @spackbace: Lane centring. At least you can feel all competent ‘driving a car’
                                              Simple things. Simple minds.

  • burningrage on 03/09/2021 - 17:53
    +1

    There is too much overanalysis I think.

    As an owner of an PHEV, I have done calculation that with the new 2.0c, you would have to be driving 2,500km before filling up once to make it worth it.

    This is because a 2c per km (and don't forget Dan Andrews is indexing this too) adds about 2 Lt/100kms in efficiency so what I used to have was 1.9lt/100kms at 1,600kms now becomes 3.9lt/100kms and this is the best scenario.

    So to cancel the effect of 2c, then you would have to drive 2,500kms to make it back around 1.9lt/100kms.

    These are all approximations.

    I have already planned to ditch my PHEV as I do not want to legitimize this tax.

    • Thinkscape on 04/09/2021 - 09:59

      The Vic/SA/NSW EV tax is abominable and world-wide embarrassment. How it hits PHEV is a cherry on top 🤦‍♂️

      However it’s worth noting that it’s just a knee jerk of the AU petrol and coal lobbies fighting for their survival. It’s a sign of times and reflection of their own modelling (on top of all national and independent research) about how EVs will eat the world in this decade, coal and petrol consumption dropping, whether one likes it or not (and most like it as it gives us a chance of unscrewing the planet)

  • RiseAndRuin on 03/09/2021 - 19:35
    +1

    Right now you can do some math based on all the current data and prices, but for the future I think it's very hard to tell. My guess is that since we have a 4th world grid, especially in VIC, once EVs become a really significant trend, the additional taxes for the cars or potentially even the cost of electricity across the board (including residential) will rise exponentially.

    That will be justified as the usual "necessary cost of upgrades" and similar BS, as both the government and the energy companies know that the consumers/citizens will have fewer and fewer alternatives, and will be easy targets to rob.

    • Jackson on 03/09/2021 - 23:47
      +1

      Except we'll have solar panels on our rooves and enough realestate to power the car and the house easily. And if you can't because you and your car are at work, you can get a nice big home battery and store your energy in the day and then use it at night. There's definitely going to be a huge shake up, and network costs will have to come from somewhere, but I am not game to say that it's just going to get more expensive

  • ShannonN on 03/09/2021 - 20:52
    +3

    well if you take the purchase price of a EV that's how much I'll save as I won't be buying one

    • Euphemistic on 04/09/2021 - 05:48
      +1

      Interested to hear why you won’t be buying? Is it price, range, be retiring from driving soon, some other factor?

      • ShannonN on 04/09/2021 - 07:23
        +2

        well while I don't really have to justify my answer here goes.

        1. can't afford a matchbox car let alone a new car whether its petrol diesel or ev

        2.EV Cars in general have big question marks over range and battery life, always reading how many tests for range use different formulas rather than hop in a car with full charge and drive it till it stops?

        1. Depreciation - there is no model for determining loss regarding dollar values.

        we are now talking high end new cars not the first gen Toyotas here so there are no real long term studies done on something less than 5 yrs old

        • Euphemistic on 04/09/2021 - 09:50
          +1

          True, you don’t have to answer and I’m not going to try to convince you to buy one if you don’t want to. It interesting to hear why some don’t even consider it.

          Price is the biggest reason I’m not buying one … yet. Certainly can’t get one for $5k.

          I look forward to having a full charge every morning. When you drive no more than 50km a day and have a range of 200 range doesn’t matter. Look forward to barely any regular servicing. Look forward to quiet smooth running and instant torque.

          Range is a consideration, but for a second ‘city car’ I reckon an EV would be great. Still be keeping an ICE vehicle for holidays and towing.

        • Thinkscape on 04/09/2021 - 09:54

          🤦‍♂️ No car on the planet will give you manufacturer’s advertised range, fossil or EV.
          Depends on multitude of factors like temperature, weight, wind, tire pressure, driving style etc.

          Yes there are tests on YouTube of people driving EVs from 100% to 0% until they stop.

          There are no question marks over range or battery life. There are EVs with more than 1M km on odo (taxis) you can Google. Typical Tesla range degradation is less than 10% in first 250.000km.

          • spackbace on 04/09/2021 - 16:50

            @Thinkscape:

            No car on the planet will give you manufacturer’s advertised range, fossil or EV.

            Lol or do you mean you just haven't witnessed it? Have personally seen cars averaging less than sticker values

          • Antikythera on 05/09/2021 - 13:32

            @Thinkscape: there is no way a taxi could be pure EV. need to be hybrid.

            how many KM does a taxi do in a 8 hour shift? now realise they do 12 hour shifts. with two drivers they are on the road 24 hours a day.

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