I've been having upper back pain for a while. I've done some stretches but I feel like it hasn't been helping. Should I book for a physiotherapist or a chiropractor in this situation. I've seen a physio before, but have never been to a chiro. Has anyone had positive experiences with a chiro?
Physio or Chiro
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LOL.
How about homeopathy?
Sitting at a desk with poor posture is a common cause of upper back pain. So take a little bit of desk, drop it in a tub of water, shake it this way, that way and the other way, tip 9/10 of it out, shake it the same way again, repeat 1000 times, then place 3 drops of the preparation on the back of the tongue.
@Scrooge McDuck: You say this as a joke, but I legitimately walked by an old lady complaining of what seemed to be a rotator cuff injury to an essential oil salesperson. Unbelievable.
@thanatos350: Oh no, that is essentially what homeopaths actually believe.
Truth is stranger than fiction…
That's an American website. The OP isn't planning to go to the US for a chiropractor.
But hey, 'believe' whatever you want.
Wow I'm really worried that you have no idea what training your chiro has done.
A lot of study isn’t necessarily good, it depends what they are studying and how that translates to clinical care. Someone could be an absolute expert in astrology after dedicating a lifetime to studying it - it wouldn’t make it a valid science.
Someone could be an absolute expert in astrology after dedicating a lifetime to studying it - it wouldn’t make it a valid science.
But a Chiro and an astrologist would probably be as close to being a medical doctor as each other.
LOL Monash do not offer a Chiro course. Monash is a proper university. Stop promulgating bullshit.
@EightImmortals: You need to stop posting shit you don't understand. Monash is the second best university in Melbourne, it's a top university in Australia. It does not offer bullshit courses like Chiro. It does offer proper courses like Medicine. You're embarrassing yourself by even thinking they are remotely similar.
@EightImmortals: Your Chiro does not have a medical degree, which is what you are implying. You literally have no idea what you are talking about. But you go to a Chiro, so to be expected.
@EightImmortals: You literally said 'maybe it was a medical degree'. That is not an assumption. Chiropractors do not have medical degrees. The medical fraternity looks down on chiropractors (and their patients).
@EightImmortals: I bet you're not a fan of vaccinations either.
You know the best part of arguing with someone online is when they use the words 'look it up'. It's an instaloss. But really, there's no arguing here, you're going to go along and live your life living in ignorance, no matter what educated people tell you, because you've grossly overestimated your own intelligence. Good luck to you, and your legion, whatever you think that means.
@[Deactivated]: There are academic institutions out there who have removed these courses due to the lack of evidence. There are a bunch of chiros out there who have retrained to more supported allied health professions for this reason.
In saying that, they aren't all bad. Some people do get results and relief. It's just that most AH professionals consider chiro to be where you go to feel good, while physio is where you go to get better.
I'm fine with chiros using relatively innocuous physical modalities, but the whole cracking thing is too far.
@thanatos350: Manipulations are part of the physiotherapy gamut of techniques as well so in general I don't think it's something we need to be too concerned about. My physio regularly does hip adjustments on me that sound like they're breaking bones, but damn if they don't make everything feel much better. Even at home, rolling out your back to crack it can feel great. So I understand why chiro is so popular.
Neck/cervical manipulations and manipulations on newborns are what I can't get behind.
I think it might be RMIT, i have been to a uni with student chiros to see what it was about - erm a part from having young adults watch me dance around in my underwear, it wasnt very productive.
I believe they said they studied 5 years(?)
it was bundoora area, i think thats rmit
Snap and crack quack.
such ignorance
Myotherapist
chiropractor
Will always find something wrong, like a mechanic. 💰 💰
Ask your GP 😷
Both will help you with the pain. Physio should be your go to first though.
I already know what the chiro will say.
Get Xray, oh look your spine is wonky, you have scoliosis that's why. I need to see you weekly for….ever.
Or
Get xray, oh look your spine is wonky, your bone is out of place that's why. I need to see you weekly for…ever.
Final year chiro student here, based on current guidelines we are not meant to be taking any imaging unless specific criteria are met (such as trauma, potential ligament/tendon tears etc).
There was a recent paper that came out that said 37 -90 percent of adults that had no pain had findings on their x-rays to suggest pathology. So yeah I would definitely not be doing them unless there was something in their history to suggest a sinister process or what I've mentioned before.
Also if any chiro tells you they are putting a 'bone back into its place', I'd recommend going to someone else lol.
Good to hear they're finally changing that. It'll be a while before the new grads replace the old guard.
Tbh plenty of evidence from many years ago have suggested there's no point re back imaging in most of the population with nsbp.
But as you wrote, having an xray on hand as 'evidence' of back pain is an easy way to explain to 'patients'. Hence why they still do it in practice…easy sell. I've lost count how many people have said they spent months/years because of this issue…
Go forth and spread the word
I've had this done to me by a few chiros when I went to see them so I understand the frustration that the general public must be dealing with.
It's hard. But like I said if you follow the general advice I've outlined OP should be able to find a good practitioner.
I'm a 2nd year Osteo student at RMIT, who also works in a chiro clinic (in Remedial Massage)
It's good to see the attitude is changing to a more realistic one like yours. The Chiropractors I have come across are just patient pushers unfortunately. Multiple clients in different rooms waiting for adjustments. Line em up, crack, pay repeat.
They make bank but I honestly feel the old school chiro mentality does not have the patients best interests at mind, that comes second to profitability.
A good example - I had a client come to me the other day after seeing a chiropractor (a colleague of mine), tennis elbow symptoms amongst other things. Pretty clear cut, even was acknowledged in the appt notes. Her appointment with the Chiro concluded with no prescribing of exercise, strengthening, stretching, rehab nothing.
It literally took me about 5 minutes to walk her through some basic exercises, that would put her in a position to hopefully rehabilitate herself while still coming to see me for symptom / pain reduction during the process.
Maybe I'm just a bad businessman….
On the flipside, the Chiropractors operating this way don't always like it - It's driven by the clinic most of the time. I'm hoping that the profession sees a positive shift to a more patient centric approach as more young Chiropractors like yourself get qualified.
That's what physios do too, minus the xray.
Not that they're wrong - if you want someone to fix the damage you've done to your body, there isn't really going to be a permenant solution.
I just use cheap shopping centre massage therapists now - occassionally you find one that actually looks to treat issues, but in general I'm only looking for some relief because I don't want to change my lifestyle to fix the underlying issue.
Bahahahah.
I’ll never forget my colleague at work: “oh my chiro is excellent, I see him every fortnight” 🤦♂️
An osteopath.
Agreed. You don't want a chiro, an Osteopath is much better.
Usually much better than a physio too, unless you are after localised non spinal rehab.
If you have private health insurance extras, check what you are covered for. Might be covered for physio but not chiro for example.
Learnt the hard way when I went to a podiatrist, should have gone to a physio instead.
ahha I got caught on Podiatrist as well
Chiro has always been covered for all the health covers I checked years ago
Say what you will about Chiros, they know how to lobby for their profession.
Registration portable across multiple countries, on most health insurance, medicare via EPC etc.
Physio - 100%, everyone that I know that sees a chiropractor ends up seeing them regularly forever. Physios will help get things fixed so you don't have to see them forever, or refer you on to a specialist if it's something they can't.
Someone else suggested a myotherapist, my physio suggested them for essentially longer deep tissue massage when I had a back problem a couple of years back and it helped, but I wouldn't go to them to work out what is wrong, that's more of a complimentary therapy to the physio.
Chiro go quack
Chiropractic is a pseudoscience. That, plus the one and only time I went to get "adjusted" then the next day woke up and could not move my entire right arm was an experience in itself.
Thankfully after a few hours it righted itself.. 😐
What? They're not popular because theyre psudoscentific rubbish.
Hey mate ( I guess I should address this to a lot of people on here that share similar views)
I'm a final year chiropractic student and I wanted to drop a line and say that not all of the chiros you will see are like this. I understand we've got a bad rap probably for legitimate reasons but most of my cohort are being taught differently and I hope that a lot of us will hopefully change these views.
This advice can be generalised somewhat but any practitioner (chiro or osteo or physio) that relies on adjuncts (things like spinal manipulation, soft tissue therapy, taping etc) is probably not someone you will want to see long term. These adjuncts are fine as long you have an active rehab component as the main treatment choice. Now I should preface this and say that there are conditions where you will need extended sessions to track how you're going with rehab and the first thing that comes to mind is frozen shoulder which can take months to years to resolve or something like an ACL tear/rupture which is also 3 - 6 months.
I also want to say that the curriculum (atleast at RMIT) is quite thorough which is evidenced based. There are still components that I personally do not (and science doesn't either) agree with but you will find this with other disciplines too. I'm in student clinic now and for every patient I see I need to have a systematic review of randomised controlled trial paper backing the treatment option I choose to give my patients. I can't speak for other universities but I can speak for RMIT.
Again if you look at my general advice with finding a good practitioner you can't go wrong. You'd be surprised at how similar all the allied health courses are.
Anyway I hope I've shed some light on the topic and hope that the perception of our profession is changed through the new grads coming out.
Good luck!
There are still components that I personally do not (and science doesn't either) agree with but you will find this with other disciplines too.
I can't think of a single mainstream treatment in modern medicine that 'science doesn't agree with.' There may be poorly-understood mechanisms, debates over adverse effects, or medicines that have rendered obsolete due to developments in research, but that is not the same as chiropractic. D. D. Palmer, an 18th century Canadian charlatan, divined chiropractic during a seance; and was later run over and killed by his own son, who is responsible for popularising it. Between that amazing origin story, and the often ludicrous claims you still hear about curing everything from diabetes to heart disease via 'spinal manipulation,' any sane person's alarm bells should go off.
The fact that chiropractic schools are now 'embracing' EBM is laughable, since it doesn't take a lot of work for anyone to find countless damning journal articles about the efficacy and risks of chiropractic on PubMed. I'm just wondering how the 'evidence-based' chiro schools square that circle without going cross-eyed. OP, if your condition resolves after a couple of sessions with a chiro, try a physio next time, or pick up a shiatsu back massager with $8 off.
Most of there ridiculous claims come from chiros in America where what you study and how evidence based the board of chiropractic that governs a particular state is all over the place. Chiros in Australia are governed by the same board that governs other disciplines including physio. If you think a chiro in Aus can make these ridiculous claims and get away with it is doesn't hold true to reality unfortunately.
Regarding the origin story for chiropractic, doesn't take a lot to figure out that DD Palmer was a charlatan and snake oil salesman. Our discipline here is evolving and we are whole heartedly embracing the biopsychosocial model of pain which last time I checked was definitely evidence based.
The evidence for spinal manipulation is only strong for short term changes and I've already said that it should only be used as an adjunct. Most of the risks from chiropractic care come from cervical manipulations which has a 1 in around 100,000 chance of causing a vertebral artery dissection. Discussion of whether that's an acceptable risk is beyond the scope of this thread but I personally would not be using it in practice.
Also that shiatsu back massager is essentially a neuro modulator, it does not actually 'loosen' muscles and I would say a graded exercise program would suit OP better.
If you think a chiro in Aus can make these ridiculous claims and get away with it is doesn't hold true to reality unfortunately.
That absolutely happens in Australia. There are responsible chiros who stick within their lane and limit themselves to musculoskeletal pain, and it's promising that new grads are taught this, but there's a reason why the profession has a bad rap. The chiropractic board can't be trusted to self-police if every few years, we have to hear about another infant getting paralysed. Neonatal 'spinal manipulation' shouldn't just be discouraged with 'codes of conduct' or 'best practice guidelines,' it should be illegal.
I mean look at this:
https://adc.bmj.com/content/86/5/382
Just a case study. But they note there is no evidence, no beneficial effect of chiro treatment vs placebo. But yet the conclusion is still to seek chiro treatment. I mean wtf?
Another big one is chiros and colic. Many systematic reviews have shown these studies are weak and results should be taken with care. However plenty of Australian chiros (you can google chiro colic au) cite these weak studies as evidence.
Then you have this scroll down to see they treat adhd the 'natural way' right here in Australia.
The (chiropractic board)[https://www.chiropracticboard.gov.au/News/Newsletters/June-2020.aspx] had to release a communique about not making any advertising on claims of improving immune systems. I mean this shows how prevalent the issue is (purporting you can fix anything and everything) for your board to come with this.
Unfortunately ahpra is based on a passive system of detection whereby members of the public have to report the issue. They don't actively look for these types of practitioners (if you want to call them that). It's happening right here.
I'm going to put away my sword on this one because i'm genuinely curious and want you to engage. Why did you pick studying chiro (becoming a chiro) over becoming a physio?
@jacross: Often it is grades, or the ego of calling yourself a "Dr" without actually having to work hard to get that title.
@universe: I don't actually know a any physios that use the Dr title. I think if you do advanced studies in the field you can?
@serpserpserp: Pretty sure even the physios who hold a doctorate (Melb Uni) are not allowed to use the Dr title as it would be misleading. From memory anyway.
@serpserpserp: This is changing, the President of the United States wife holds an EdD, and a big furore started when people began criticising her for calling herself Dr Jill Biden.
In the future you may say people with doctorate degrees insist on being called Dr like Dr Jill Biden.
@jacross: I chose Osteo, but did look into Chiro. I'm 30, have a mortgage, a wife etc so a lot of that factors into the thought process below.
Lets ignore the high atar to get in at la trobe temporarily(I'm in Melbourne), there aren't other undergrads available unless something has been recently released.
In the final 2 years there are something like 26 weeks of placement a year in 8 week blocks, 4 days per week 9-5 unpaid or thereabouts. Simply put, during these years I'd have a hell of a time managing work / study. I run an IT business, I'd have to drop it basically and idk drive for uber or something like that.
Now I also would never have gotten in, with only prior study in IT. So, I would have to undertake a 3 year exercise science degree and hope i get into Physiotherapy afterwards, or have what is essentially a useless degree. The only other further study pathways I could see with exercise science were dietics and exercise physiology, not something I wanted to go into.
Enter Osteo (or even Chiro), super low atar (low 60s), all at bachelor level CSP (cheap vs a masters) and placement in their student clinic which sounds like its a few shifts a week for your last couple of years. Can't remember the specifics, but it was much more manageable in my situation.
The only other option I came up with to do physio without potentially ending up with a useless exercise science degree was to do Osteo at VU, graduate with the bachelor (3 years) and attempt to enter a master of physiotherapy with that. Then my fallback plan would be to do the master of osteopathy. However if for whatever reason I didn't gain entry into the masters, once again useless degree lol. (You can't practice / gain registration without completing a master).
I opted to go with RMIT in my case, because the requirements for on campus block mode made work a little more difficult, RMIT is also quite a bit cheaper as its all at bachelor level. If I had a regular job, or something that worked well with it VU would have probably been a better option as I like the idea of block mode.
Wow. This 18th century Canadian was some charlatan. Wikipedia says he died aged 68 in 1913.
Ahahah…yeah frozen shoulder generally resolves on its own too.
No matter how hard or how many times you see a client(4 times a week if you must) even if you did nothing, it will return to normal rom. It may take 3 years, but it will get better. Studies have shown there are early difference with injections or other treatments but long term wise, the were no difference in function and pain scales.
Extended sessions for acl? Again plenty of studies show lots of rehab exercises and gradual load, instead of hands on.
But I'm sure you've learnt all that from your systematic reviews and random controlled trials. Though you might want to make sure these are strong studies.
Ps, pretty sure physios are trained different to chiros. I wonder if chiros train in hospital with other health practitioners too…hmmm
Yeah it's called natural history. Not all cases mate, sometimes there are other factors that prolong the situation such as central sensitisation.
Misunderstanding what I mean, ACL rehab is all about graded load, check out Frobells RCT on surgery vs Rehab. I'm not saying the patient comes and sees me 4 times a week, what I mean is the time frame can be longer than what someone would expect. I've already stated that hands on should be used as an adjunct only and active rehab should be the main stay.
I get the feeling your bias would prevent us from having a useful discussion but no worries.
My apologies for misunderstanding your point re acl: I am in agreement to that.
Not many studies have delved into central sensitisation and frozen shoulder. Though some have hypothesised that early forceful treatment may cause this.
This is my point. You talk about systematic reviews and rcts, but when there has been studies to show frozen shoulder able to recover on its own, you then talk about frozen shoulder needing treatments. Which not only can be harmful (potentially causing central sensitisation) but has minimal evidence of working compared to doing nothing.
You are also biased as that is your profession of choice; why would you agree to what I say as that implies you should've done something else. I have my own personal reason to call out something I don't agree with, especially if it has the potential to be financially detrimental with minimal physical gain (long term).
I do hope you make the change required. All the best and good luck
RMIT provides education in this pseudoscience? I will be looking up how to be return my degree.
Yeah, it's a really bad mark against their reputation. I have no idea what admin was thinking when they started this course.
The funny thing is everyone for some reason loses their shit about Chiro being taught but are perfectly fine with traditional chinese medicine and osteopathy.
Both of which carry components with questionable evidence.
If you need a systematic review that demonstrates conclusively that the treatment will help the patient for each treatment decision, as a chiropractor what treatment options do you have that are within the scope of your profession?
What made you chose to study chiro over physio or medicine?
He couldn't get into a proper course.
if you call yourself a chiro you have already said enough.
if you don't believe in the magic that chiro is based on don't call yourself one and study to be a real doctor or a physio.
why try to dress an old quack into something more modern and have to defend it every step of the way. If what you do is not chiro then why insist calling it and yourself one?I've had worsening lower back pain for around 4 years now. been to several doctors and physios with limited results.
Although I have been a vocal sceptic on chiro I decided to give it a go.I have been to 2 chiros now to no significant progress in my condition. One made my condition worse at the start and then tried to dress it as a progress when i got back to my initial state over some weeks.
The other was a younger "new age" chiro who is also teaching other people to become chiros. Puts Dr in front of his name in emails. Has alot of gadgets like an electronic stethoscope 😄 to make it look more modern and scientific.
Uses standard door-to-door book sales tactics -> like: made me bend over at the start of the session, then again later and as I was doing the same bend excitedly congratulated me for being able to bend better 🤦. Unfortunately I'm quite aware of how much I bend and there was no significant change. It's a standard sales-type psychological manipulation.
He's main scam seems to be trying to get me on the supplements he's also selling.it was bitter sweet, realising that I was right all along about the practice, but not finding a "cure" for my condition.
the parts that "worked" about the chiro visits were the general recommendations about changing the lifestyle, and diet. But that part is not what seperates chiros from my GP or physio. The lifestyle recommendations have just been added to the quack practice to legitimise it and put the onus on the patient.
If you are a young person and just starting out as a chiropractor - its not too late to quit!
Why try to make a shit sandwich taste better when you can cut the shit altogether and not call yourself a chiropractor?P.S. I do think, that if ones issue is not serious, and you need something to believe in and have the means then being manipulated and "cracked" can be quite relaxing and helpful short term. But the difference in effectiveness of good Thai massage and chiropractor is slim to none. And Thai place doesn't try to ⚓ you by asking for double the price for the first visit while not even giving you a massage on the first go 😁
Physiotherapists are better trained and a safer option as far as I'm aware. There are some risks with chiro.
If you are unhappy with your physio maybe try another clinic.Push ups. Work your way up to 500 a day.
thats why my shoulders are bad now
You need to change your form and not push through the pain.
At least your back is fixed.
1,000 situps a day did that
Personal experience only, YMMV.
I've had good experiences with chiro for symptomatic relief. If I'm feeling stiff, tight or just a bit out of whack I go see them, get a few cracks, a bit of massage and I feel better.
Physio seems to work better from a remedial perspective- if I have a long standing niggle or an actual injury I go to the physio for a few weeks, get the treatment, do the exercises and over time the problem is gone.
TL;DR- chiro will help you feel better, physio will help you get better- in my experience anyway. Choose which one you feel is more appropriate for your needs.
Not personal experience, YMMV.
If you replace 'chiro' with 'Asian massage places", your post still makes perfect sense.
(I did not neg you btw)
Why Asian massage places? Why not just massage?
Seems kind of an odd distinction to draw.
The aforementioned 'Asian massage places' relieve tension in a way that only some will do :)
because thai massage places are da bomb
Yizzur, because if you've gotten quite stiff, and feeling tight + out of whack; a white, male masseuse with 2 remedial massage certificates at a hotel spa just doesn't have the special techniques to encourage the floodgates to open.
Physio is a better option, but be aware that there’s a lot of variability in quality with private physios. One that has a masters in musculoskeletal physiotherapy in addition to their undergraduate degree is more likely to have an evidence based approach to their assessment and treatment - this isn’t essential but another layer of assurance.
Also consider the ergonomics of the things you are doing regularly, e.g. your computer set up (are you using a laptop a lot? Are your screens and desk height in the right position?), any particular sport/exercise (or lack of), manual work, being on the phone a lot, not taking frequent enough breaks etc. Some physios will go into this, others won’t.
Like someone else mentioned see your gp as well. They might be able to recommend a good Physio, they should also be able to screen for any red flags / other issues a physio might not. If this turns into a chronic issue, your gp can also do a plan to get you 5 subsidised sessions with a Physio if money is an issue.
Should have told him you're gonna shove this cab up his fat ass 😂😂
Chiros are like spiritual healers.
Cairo (if you can get a Flight)… lol
Nah, Physio.
I admit that I have been to both but i find for long term fixes a physio is the way to go as long as u r super compliant with at home exercises to get well. That is the imperative. Chiros rarely give u exercises to assist recovery and can be just a short term fix.
as u r super compliant with at home exercises
This is often why these questions come up. They think the physio "isn't working" but if you probe a bit you just find they got bored with the exercises and stopped going.
Neither for me.
Osteo ftw!
Came here to post this.
I have a permanent back injury. 20+ years of chronic pain. Have seen em all. Go to physio. Do the specific exercises they will likely recommend. Theres a reason physios are the main ones covered/recommended by workcover/tac, most surgeons, most hospitals, most health insurance etc. Physio is evidence-based and more likely to help than anything else. Exercise is the real key to managing any pain if it lasts longer than the acute phase due to injury.
Depends on the Dr/Therapist (or mechanic for the human body) and how honest they are. Some will string you along for multiple visits to squeeze a bit more cash from you, most can fix the problem in fewer visits (depends on how severe your condition is, and if you actually follow their advice) knowing that they will lose the extra income because you don’t need to return (but this will only strengthen their credibility).
I’ve seen a chiro that’s fixed many of my injuries and have been referred to a physio (by a GP) that I felt wasn’t necessary largely because my chiro educated me well enough on self care (e.g. stretches, exercises, ergonomics).
It would be worth considering a myotherapist or musculoskeletal therapist. Find which works best for you. If your condition is chronic (long term) be prepared to invest a bit more time and money to get fixed.
Been trying to find good chiro/physio around Melb, looks like you have had a good experience on your chiro, mind recommend your therapist. Cheers.
https://melbourneroadhealth.com.au/
Located in Williamstown. See Greg. Also have heard many good things about Colin.
Have you give a try with an osteopath? Maybe a bone misplaced ? If you have try a physio and chiro in the past and still have some pain maybe worth to see an osteopath . Your first appointenent will usually cost you around $160 and the next one $120. Some private health can also pick up the bill. Most osteopath are straightforward and won't waste your money or time if they think you are not suitable or just don t need them ( especially the one in sydney CBD).
I had a chiro who was amazing. I had a back pain due to how I used to work (a warehouse, moving fair amount of stuff by hand).
I am kinda reading what others have said, and he was fortunately not like those.
He wasn't saying anything about how he'd cure basically anything. He was saying it was likely a problem with back, something something disk something something science-y that I forgot.
He wasn't saying anything about how he'd need to see me forever. He was saying that because I am fairly young and the problem is relatively minor, he expects the problem to gradually go away if I keep up with my back exercises he recommended.
I think he was being reasonable? Do stretches, right posture when lifting heavy things, exercise your back, when you change your job to something less physical do exercises like swimming.
I was happy with the results. The back pain was relieved to the point where I could work and do home exercises. I think I was fortunate enough to see a good chiropractor.
I tried a Chiro for the first time 2 years ago. Was very sceptical. But she was great. Been back twice. Literally has removed shoulder pain through one treatment.
I am amazed how passionate some people are on here about the chiro vs physio debate. I'm happy with both. Like PS5 vs XBOX
Eh, I think there are people who are like anything that's unscientific has to be burned like there is no tomorrow on Ozbargain.
Therefore any benefits that someone might have gotten from those unscientific stuff has to be condemned.I am not going to defend chiropractors who says they cure anything, I am just sharing my opinion about one guy who wasn't like all that.
This doesn't mean I am defending the entire field, nor I think everyone should see one.I probably could have gotten similar treatments from a physio, but eh, my wife and I were looking for options back then and we thought the nature of the pain and everything considered a chiropractor was an option we could look into. I kinda thought of them as masseurs who has more complex knowledge on human anatomy and back stuff. If what they were talking about didn't align with my previous knowledge on human anatomy I would've been at least suspicious and looked things up.
Therefore any benefits that someone might have gotten from those unscientific stuff has to be condemned.
I can walk on your back for you and you can feel good after I do it. But I reckon the other 99 times I do it, I could really hurt you.
Antidotal evidence does not mean something works for the population at large.
Look at Iridology, I know people who swear by it. But even the most storied Iridologists have been found to not be able to diagnose sweet FA.
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Well do you want to go to a trained health professional? Or a witch doctor?