Advice on Cheapest Public Liability Insurance for Non-Profit Organisation/Charity

Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 12:52

Hi guys,

I would like to utilise your advice and research skills.
I need to get a public liability insurance (cover $10 million) for a charity which supplies food to people who are homeless, who have lost their job etc. via providing such donations to food vans run by churches.
I now need to get public liability insurance - the cheapest quote I have found is $553 which is still a lot, especially given that the charity is totally "grassroot" and has an income of $0 annually. Everything is really done voluntarily. The charity gets no funding from the government.
I cannot afford to pay that sum myself hence I would like to ask if anyone knows an insurer who has a low quote for such a case.
I do not want to have to stop getting such food as (a) the poor people will miss out, and (b) about 2 tons of edible food would land in the bins per month which means this would be a huge waste of food.

Please let me know if you have any ideas or know of a cheap insurer.

Thank you.

Lys

Financial Insurance

Comments

  • AustriaBargain on 17/10/2020 - 13:03

    Is 10 million enough for this kind of work? I know a lot of people have the attitude that food for the homeless doesn't need the same standards as food for paying customers. Every food wastage thread on Reddit has workers talking about putting food in dumpsters for homeless people to find, but they would never place food in the dumpster for a paying customer to find. "Sir you can find your meal in the back, inside Dumpster B". If a homeless person gets sick off your food then you are just as liable as if you sold that same food to the Queen of England on a silver platter. The organization who donated the food may not be liable, but your organization would be liable. Doesn't take much, they end up in hospital, doctors ask where they recently ate, "Oh over at Lysander's Homeless Feed Bag" they'll say. One of your managers will feel personally offended and refuse to answer questions about the cleanliness of the food, then the homeless person will have no other avenue than to sue you. By the time your manager pulls their fingers out of their ears you've got a lawyer who has already documented the effects of your spoiled food and is sending letters of demand to your insurer, and the homeless victim is already asking around his mates how they feel after they ate the same food that same night. By this point there is zero chance of covering up the food poisoning, you could threaten the homeless guy with whatever you want but it's already out of your hands.

    • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 13:39

      That's what the donor supermarkets want - not my choice.
      The liability is not for the food as that is covered by Samaritan clauses in the Civil Liabilities Act in Tasmania.
      It is more for physical injuries for volunteers as I understand it.

      Here, in case you are interested: https://www.legislation.tas.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current…

      We pick up before anything goes in the dumpster. I registered properly with the supermarket. All above board.
      All food we get is still in date and comes straight off the shelves.

      Interestingly enough, my other charity which has been running for 5+ years never needed this but maybe that is because we use council premises and get a grant equivalent to the rent which means insurance is probably provided by the Council itself.

      • AustriaBargain on 17/10/2020 - 13:44

        Section 35F seems to say that only the original seller of the food is protected, and only if the food was safe when the original seller handed it to your charity. So the original seller is only protected if the food was safe, if it wasn't safe when it was handed to your new charity then this law provides no protection. This law protects the original seller/maker of the food, not your charity who takes the food from the original seller/maker, right?

        • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 13:47

          No, as we donate the food to other charities so we are donors as well. Additionally, those other charities already have insurance.
          Essentially, this second charity I established is kind of a collector of edible food from supermarkets so the food is not thrown away and then we give it to the smaller charities completely free (unlike Food Bank who charges) because they do not get a lot of or any funding by the government as opposed to the Salvos, Mission Australia etc. who in Tassie alone got an EXTRA $6 million for Corona (and yet here nobody knows what has been done with that money).

          • AustriaBargain on 17/10/2020 - 13:49

            @Lysander: Why would your employer want to take on that kind of liability? Why not just forget the new charity, forget other people's food, and just donate the businesses own food.

            • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 13:54

              @AustriaBargain: What do you mean employer?

              I am not employed by Woolworths.

              I founded the charity. Before, 2 tons of food would land in the bins - every month. For the supermarkets it is a hassle to distribute their food which is why it is faster to throw it away.
              We pick up every day - we get the food and the supermarkets have heavily reduced waste/bin fees so it is win-win situation for everyone.

              Personally and from my professional perspective public liability insurance is not needed as we have no premises, no vehicles, no income etc. and also Wooloworths is already indemnified by us (all volunteers signed waivers).

              • AustriaBargain on 17/10/2020 - 14:11

                @Lysander: How do you pick it up without vehicles. I was going to say what if a batch one day is accidentally left in a hot vehicle too long and it's not thrown out because the volunteer that day decided they looked fine to her, these laws wouldn't protect you at all. If it wasn't safe when it left your hands then you're fully liable, right? Woolworths can afford to spend money hiring and training people on how to handle food properly. But if the average IGA can't work it out properly, how does your charity manage to do it? IGAs get fined all the time for being too dirty or selling spoiled food. How do you get people smart enough to handle food properly to volunteer for you. To you and me food hygiene might be common sense, maybe you've taken courses on it. How do you ensure all your drivers and volunteers can be trusted to keep the food safe while it is in their control. If an employee with hep A opened a tray of cream buns and stuck their unwashed finger in the cream, I don't see how this law protects you from that. It wasn't safe when it was in your volunteers control, it wasn't safe to eat after you hand it on to whoever is destined to receive it.

                • Lysander on 18/10/2020 - 15:37

                  @AustriaBargain: A few charities are so close I can trolley it over.
                  Volunteers have cars and it is straight transported to charities. It is there within 15 minutes of leaving the supermarket. Always!
                  Your example would also apply to supermarket employees etc. Every volunteers signs waiver and indemnification.
                  Plus I pick the volunteers carefully. A lot of them are people who have also been volunteering for another charity for 5+ years.
                  It has been running smoothly for 5+/1+ years respectively now and I hope it will continue for at least another decade.

                  • AustriaBargain on 18/10/2020 - 16:25

                    @Lysander: Right it applies the same to supermarket employees. But supermarkets have more than 10 mil worth of insurance. On top of their training programs.

    • mskeggs on 17/10/2020 - 14:01

      How would $10m liability cover be inadequate?
      Even in the USA that would be an excessive damages award.

      I find it frustrating people are sowing doubt that might discourage people actually doing good.

      • AustriaBargain on 17/10/2020 - 14:03

        I was told 10 million is the minimum you should get.

        • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 14:07

          That is what they demand. I do find it excessive too but that is not something worth questioning or fighting for me. After all, they do us a favour by giving us that food and we really do get a pretty good amount which is super helpful for the many poor and struggling people in Tassie, especially now that Corona made it much worse.

          • AustriaBargain on 17/10/2020 - 14:14

            @Lysander: No I mean I've been told 10 million is the minimum for any kind of business. It sounds like a lot, but if it is costing you less than $50 a month then it isn't really excessive at all. Netflix will cost more than that one day soon.

            • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 14:16

              @AustriaBargain: Sure, if you look at it this way but you would not believe how often insurance is superfluous or people have three insurances for one and the same thing.
              It is no coincidence that there are so many enormous insurance companies around (e.g. Allianz, Axa, Generali, Progressive etc.).
              My grandmother had three insurances for one and the same thing - the brokers took advantage of her age and used fearmongering. Did not go down well once I got a hold of it when she named me her legal representative.

              • AustriaBargain on 17/10/2020 - 14:30
                +1

                @Lysander: As the CEO of the charity or whatever, even if you're not getting paid your time and experience is probably worth what, at least $100 an hour to the overall effort, in value added. The whole thing wouldn't exist without and it grows and helps more people only with your own efforts. Worrying about a $50 a month expense doesn't seem a good use of your time. You could spend multiple nights researching this, but that's thousands of dollars worth of your own effort and value wasted on such a tiny monthly expense. You could have used those multiple nights head hunting additional volunteers, or making a website soliciting donations, or hosting a pizza night for your workers to improve cohesion or whatever. If insurance was something I needed, and I do, my number one question wouldn't be what is my cheapest option. I'd want to know why do i need insurance, what might come up, what probably will come up, does the cheapest option cover me for everything likely to go wrong, and does it cover me enough. How big of a food poisoning scare do you need to shut you down forever because you didn't have enough coverage. If it doesn't matter if the charity folds because there wasn't enough cover, if the people you're feeding don't actually need your help long term, then yeah just get the cheapest insurance with the smallest amount of coverage you can find. Don't even bother looking into professional advice for an organisation doing specifically what you do, whether that be your professional network or a paid service.

  • mskeggs on 17/10/2020 - 14:00
    +3

    When I last renewed, the non-profit, grassroots volunteer org I help at was over $800, so $500 isn't bad.

    Maybe you can approach a sponsor to cover the expense?

  • holdenmg on 17/10/2020 - 14:03

    I'd suggest you contact AON and discuss
    Voluntary Workers Personal Accident Insurance and/or Public and Products Liability Insurance if required.
    https://business-insurance.aon.com.au/insurance-for-charity-…

  • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 14:03

    I will try to approach the local banks - problem is they take very long as it is all centralised on the mainland somewhere. The local bosses cannot do much themselves as they have no authority apparently.
    Maybe I could even try to ask Ozbargain. ;-)
    My other idea is to simply slip under the protection of one of the charities that we provide the food to as they already have public liability insurance and there is also a crossover with our volunteers anyway.

    • mskeggs on 17/10/2020 - 14:08
      +1

      Operating under other's aegis is a good idea.
      There are also groups like ozharvest that might be interested in working with you/establishing for your group.

      $550 p.a. is the kind of money a local small business might contribute as a donation if approached. Especially if there was the chance you might organise a story in the local paper thanking them.

      • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 14:14

        Thanks. I will try that. Small businesses are fine.
        I am a bit suspicious about any big organisation/charity as in my experience of volunteering almost 25 years it is more about money, and getting funding/grants from the government primarily rather than helping. Which is why we give the food to the smaller charities overlooked by the government and who have not the resources to advertise etc.
        At the moment of course, a lot of businesses are struggling but I might actually ask a few of the restaurants I know are doing well (or a donut shop here who seems to be doing a lot of business).

        • Switchblade88 on 17/10/2020 - 16:38

          +1 for going under another charity's unbrella.

          If you've got a crossover with another charity that's directly involved then you're set. If, for example, any of our church members wanted to do a project like this then we've already got the cover paid for - it doesn't cost us any more, nor do we need to notify the insurer as an additional risk. Costs nothing to ask them, and you also don't have to worry about hurdles like financials, governance etc that a registered charity already has in place.

          We 've got our non-profit insurance through ACS Financial, covering a broad swathe of policies including public liability, voluntary workers etc - that's $3600 p.a. for a small 50-odd member group with buildings and so on. As the bookkeeper I'm dealing with this on a daily basis - I'm happy to provide any insight that'll help.

    • aquavires on 17/10/2020 - 14:16
      +2

      First of all, onya for doing important work like this!

      I don't have info about insurance, but I know of other organizations doing similar work (such as OzHarvest: https://www.ozharvest.org/) Perhaps you can talk to them for advice or partner up with them?

      • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 14:26
        +1

        Thanks. I know Ozharvest but (a) not here and (b) if possible I would like to stick with the smaller charities.
        The big charities do things a lot of people do not know about, for example, Food Bank gets millions of funding from the government and yet they charge the charities money for some food. Yes, they do not charge a lot but even at $1 a kilo for a small charity that can easily be many thousand dollars a year. From us they get it free.
        I have approached the City Council about establishing a free supermarket and wanted to use one of their many empty properties. Absolutely useless - I have given them detailed info (volunteers, organisation, structure) but for them it seems charity is a business. Also, they did not want to assist in any way - they wanted me to do all and have it ready to go, then officially approve it and then use the media of how much they do for the poor and homeless.
        Did not go down well with our volunteers.
        Salvos and Mission Australia stole/hijacked a concept I developed. When I submitted the plans (and name) to City Council the Council came up with 1001 artificial reasons why it is not possible. But then a Salvo's employee I had told about it put it forward as his idea, and because then Salvos and Mission Australia got 600000 for a 6 months pilot project when I could have run this for 3 years for the same money and had it ready to go.
        It is not as if I am doing this for the first time either - I have done it overseas a few times so I am not naive etc.

  • mt19 on 17/10/2020 - 14:53
    +2

    $500 seems ok; for our small charity we have $20 million public liability (plus volunteer cover) and it costs just over 1k.

    • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 14:59

      Wow, that's a lot.
      I think I better start some fundraising.

      • Shleepy on 17/10/2020 - 15:54
        +1

        Are we looking at an Ozbargain x gofundme project where we all donate $2 (being tax deductible) of our 1.5% cash back offers to help feed homeless people in Tassy?

  • brendanm on 17/10/2020 - 17:31

    Doesn't ozharvest do this already?
    or not in your area?

    Edit - just saw that it's not in your area. Should contact them, I'm sure they would be interested in helping out.

    • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 18:18

      Hm, yes I could but as I said I would like to keep it small and local as I essentially know most of the people who are homeless, are vulnerable, and need help due to mainly doing pro bono work for the last 5 years now. With bigger organisations such relationship and personal touch gets lost.

      • brendanm on 17/10/2020 - 19:19
        +1

        Fair enough, more so just for their experience with insurance etc. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't put up a GoFundMe and get the money in no time. Good on you by the way.

  • nomoneynoproblems on 17/10/2020 - 18:36

    I can't help you mate but just wanted to say thanks for your effort.

    • holdenmg on 17/10/2020 - 19:12

      Username checks out. :+)

  • Nutrino on 17/10/2020 - 20:31

    Go fund me?

    • Lysander on 17/10/2020 - 21:56

      Yeah, that's one possibility. Will start approaching the local businesses on Monday first and then set up a page if that doesn't work.

  • HelpMeiCantSee on 18/10/2020 - 08:47

    Cheapest is none. /endthread

  • OzHunterNSW on 18/10/2020 - 09:43

    I don't think $500 is expensive at all and sounds rather reasonable.

  • Tigercjn on 18/10/2020 - 11:07

    It is the right price, I doubt there is any way around it.

    My Son has done the same to accept food was for his animals from the supermarkets.

    If you can join a organisation you may me able to link into their insurance.

    As an example we have a community garden and the cheapest way to get the insurance is to join garden clubs of Australia and buy the insurance with their scheme. It brings it down to less than $200 a year.

    Another idea is to ask for a grant from someone for the purpose, Bendigo Bank, RSL, Bunnings, Councils, Politian's and most large businesses have grants available for community ideas.

    Good Luck

    • Lysander on 18/10/2020 - 15:31
      +1

      Great. I will ask the politicians - that's a good idea. Finally something they actually might be able to really help. Thank you.

  • Ali Rao on 18/10/2020 - 20:05

    Allianz business insurance for small business is pretty cheap. Its like $20 a month. If you even add your comercial car, the car insurance makes and business insurance costs roughly $90-120 a month.

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