Staff on JobKeeper Won't Come Back to Work

Lcainen on 26/05/2020 - 11:57

This is a vent as much as anything so apologies in advance.

My wife and I own a small business that was forced to shutdown back in March. In good faith we put eligible staff (2 people) onto the Jobkeeper program to keep them going through the shutdown and have them return when we open. We are now able to reopen from 1 June and we have a staff member who has been ignoring txts and phone calls since the announcement (on Saturday). They have finally messaged back this morning saying they are unable to return to work citing some BS reasons. Yesterday was the fortnightly Jobkeeper payment date so it now makes sense why they did not respond until this morning. In hindsight I should have held the payment back until they responded - I now feel stupid about not seeing this beforehand.

I have now learnt that they have been studying a completed unrelated course during the shutdown and never intended to return to work. Although we will (surely??) receive the money back we are now in a situation where we will be understaffed for our reopening in less than a week and we are expecting it to be extremely busy. This person was a core staff member and we are scrambling to find staff but it's proving difficult if not impossible.

I'm not sure what recourse is available, but even if there was something it is probably not worth the hassle of pursuing. I just feel so annoyed that this person has gamed us and the system.

/vent.

Financial

Comments

    • r3volt on 28/05/2020 - 06:50
      +2

      It's not free money to stay at home. If there
      is reasonable work they can do, they are meant to be doing it.

  • garanon on 27/05/2020 - 01:31
    +15

    There is no problem here. Both you and the employee have rights, and they exercised theirs. The money is not yours to worry about and you can still exercise your rights. If you are expecting to be crippled from this situation you may want to rethink having kept such a critical employee on a casual contract, and consider that whatever you gain or lose from this experience is exactly what you are owed. Don't think negatively of someone who has spent their time studying to advance out of where they are at now.

  • leiiv on 27/05/2020 - 02:13
    +1

    You can only blame yourselves for not being able to foresee this. It means that you don't know your employee well enough to not notice that your 'core' staff is ungrateful to you. Well, at least you still have one staff on JK, still better than nothing.

  • Slopshua on 27/05/2020 - 09:36
    +1

    What's the job? I'm looking for work at the moment..

    • Speckled Jim on 27/05/2020 - 09:58

      Sounds like a high infection risk, quaternary, dead-end service job.
      Mister Minit springs to mind.

      Wanna grind keys for a living?

  • Brendoo on 27/05/2020 - 09:59

    Just curious, does your staff member normally earn less, or roughly equivalent, to the JobKeeper payment?

    This is a story repeated over and over again in Australia now, in particular where the worker is better off on JobKeeper than working, so finds every excuse not to come to work.

    Manage the person out, give the required warnings then fire the person. Simple. You say this person is a core employee, quite clearly they are core at screwing over your business and they must go. There are 100's of thousands of people desperate for work right now. Many are probably better than your current employee. Might take a little while to get the right person, but get on to it if this person will not return to work asap after being given the required warnings.

    I know it may be tricky if your employee then starts producing doctor's certificates for some new illness and then you cannot fire the person. But you must put pressure on this employee and try to get rid of them. You cannot keep an employee who is doing this to your business.

    • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 11:24

      A bit more, but not a lot.

      They're no longer with the business, and they have accepted that.

  • Scantu on 27/05/2020 - 10:39
    +4

    Why would you think that you'd receive the money back? It's not yours in the first place

    • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 11:26
      -1

      You pay them out of your own pocket first and the ATO pays you back later. That's how Jobkeeper works. So in the first place, it is my money.

      • Scantu on 27/05/2020 - 11:43
        +1

        But it isn't, money is fungible. If you pay someone with 100% certainty you'll be reimbursed soon it's only the days in between you need to worry about, and as far as I can see that isn't your complaint?

      • sakurashu on 27/05/2020 - 13:54
        +7

        As soon as you signed up for the scheme you've agreed to be the middleman here - it's not your money, it's theirs and you have money owing from the government

        • Punda on 28/05/2020 - 01:15

          Many employers had to take out a loan to back pay people till March 30.

  • CookTopMan on 27/05/2020 - 11:19

    I'am just curious… Have you back paid your employees since 30th of March?

    • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 11:22

      Yes I did.

      • CookTopMan on 27/05/2020 - 13:21

        Secure yourself with written evidence of requesting the employee to comeback to work. If response NO, or ignorance just supply them with a termination letter. Then contact ATO and let them know to stop giving you the money for that employee.

        All the rights employee and employers currently have are on the FWA website.

        But to dig further could please you tell us, is he casual or part time?

        Occupation and hourly rate?

        There must be an explanation to your employee behaviour.

        • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 13:32

          Thanks for your assistance, it's all sorted now. The employee's behaviour is no longer relevant.

          • YoursTruly on 28/05/2020 - 18:20

            @cainen: It’s always relevant. There are two sides of a coin after all.

  • MISSMAC on 27/05/2020 - 12:17
    +5

    That’s disappointing. I feel like staff lack loyalty these days, why not let you know they were planning a change in career, ask if you would mind them continuing to get job keeper anyway and given you the time to find another staff member who’s a good fit for your business while you were closed ? I know if I was approached with that level of honestly I probably would have agreed to leave job keeper in place for now and asked if they could help train the new staff member in exchange.

    On a different note, I’m in Western Sydney and am looking for a job if you’re close by…

    • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 13:41

      ask if you would mind them continuing to get job keeper anyway and given you the time to find another staff member who’s a good fit for your business while you were closed

      Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking when I found out and would have resulted in a much more amicable ending. I wouldn't have even asked them to train the new person. I can understand why they might have thought that could have been a risky move though.

      On a different note, I’m in Western Sydney and am looking for a job if you’re close by…

      Close-ish - what industries do you have a background in?

    • Ezekiel2320 on 27/05/2020 - 15:05
      +14

      Businesses screw over the working class all day every day for 40 years:

      "That's just how the world works. Get over yourself snowflake. If you don't like it, I've got 100 other 16 year old who will burn themselves for slave wages!"

      Employee now in a financially secure position for the first time in their lives:

      "wHeRe'S tHe LoYaLtY??!!!??!??!"

      Respect gets respect. When there's a sliver of respect for the employees of the world, then perhaps we can shed a single tear for the business owners

        • DashCam AKA Rolts on 30/05/2020 - 00:14
          +1

          An employer buys the employee's time and skills, nothing more, nothing less.

          Loyalty comes from the relationship that develops; that is, how how the employee is treated. Demanding or expecting loyalty is the equivalent to demanding respect, it can be demanded but can't be forced.

  • sa-ozzie on 27/05/2020 - 13:16
    +3

    Terminate employee immediately….Jobkeeper is designed to keep employees on the books and they return when work is available ..Not sit on their lazy arse and not come back to work

    • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 13:35
      +7

      Wait, so I'm not a complete (profanity) for expecting staff who have remained on the books to come back to work when the business reopens?

      • AddNinja on 27/05/2020 - 18:24
        +5

        I think you need to employ people full or part time if you want to have your ‘expectations’ to have legal force. But then you chose not to do that didn’t you.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/05/2020 - 12:38
        +2

        You're not a (profanity) but you may care to look up the definition of "casual"

  • [Deactivated] on 27/05/2020 - 13:45
    +7

    So much amount of entitlement on this forum. OP just terminate him and let ATO know, cut his job keeper payments and whether you bother telling them is up to you. People act as if responding to an employer is something that requires so much time and effort, it's not, it's decent respect. I know major companies who had the cash flow and still didn't bother with Job Keeper so I'd say good on OP for doing it. Yes people act within their 'rights' but rights don't generally cover being ethical, you can point to other people and businesses being unethical all you want but that's such a childish response. Jobkeeper was intended for people who intended to go back to work from the place they received it, he clearly didn't.

  • curryblender on 27/05/2020 - 14:00
    +9

    Hi Cainen,

    I'm in a bit of same situation but not as bad as yours. I have 4 FT and 3 Contractor employees and my business is to start n 1st June as well. I Have been in touch with all employees including contractors to give full 38 hours shifts so they all can get work as everyone is highly productive. We have started getting everyone in the workplace and doing cleanup and preparing the place for covid19 safety measures including contractors.

    One of my FT employee refuses to absolutely come to work citing covid19. Their job is to make calls to book appointments and show clients products we have on offer. They want to make calls from home but not come to workplace.I have personally spoken to them and explained the reason why they can't work from home as they need to show products to prospective clients. Now my number is blocked by them with a text message from the employee saying "I'm not coming until September".

    After speaking to Fairwork yesterday, as per usual process we will start issuing warning letters from June 1 and will terminate the employee.

    • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 14:15

      Sorry to hear that. To be honest I think that's a worse situation than mine.

      I imagine there's probably swathes of employees trying to pull the same thing. I get there would be people with legit health concerns but I'm sure there are plenty more trying to squeeze getting something for nothing for as long as possible.

      • SleepyPolarBear on 27/05/2020 - 15:23
        +10

        "I imagine there's probably swathes of employees trying to pull the same thing"

        Nothing personal, but it is comments like these that bring out the partisan nature in forums. Opinions and assumptions should not be taken into account in your business decisions. To say you should have held back the payment for 24/5 period is kinda wrong. You had the right to assign work to your employee during the period, but you didn't. Therefore, by technicality your employee had completed all his/her obligations.

        As you've probably noted, CurryBlender seems to have taken a very direct approach - call, explain, wait, terminate. Paper trail is recommended, clearly state your expectations for the employee to work when the business opens. Wait until you actually open, then terminate as you cannot be firing someone pre-June 1 for not doing no work.

        • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 15:48
          +4

          Fair call. I don't doubt for a second there are swathes of employers also attempting to squeeze the system. I guess it is the nature of humanity. Everyone loves a free lunch.

      • curryblender on 27/05/2020 - 15:27

        That's what concerning, lot of people are taking advantage of Jobkeeper on both side of the spectrum.

        We will hire someone asap once this is sorted. We can work with 6 employees but then other have to pick up the slack until the new one trained and up to the quality.

        I hope government comes up with something to curb this kind of behaviour. There's already enough stress for businesses being shut down for last two months.

    • Samsungnote10 on 28/05/2020 - 00:52

      Please oh please either record or describe the look on said employers face when they come back in September expecting the job to still be there!

    • gromit on 29/05/2020 - 08:06

      The only question I would have is does the employee have any underlying health conditions that make them at particularly high risk. My sister quit her job to avoid coming back, but she has a seriously compromised immune system and was in a customer facing role. But she didn't try to con the employer out of extra payments or demand they keep her on she knew they were struggling and instead quit to try and find a role that didn't risk her health while allowing them to replace her.

  • wayfastwhitie on 27/05/2020 - 14:44

    if they are not capable or willing to do the job…..there are many thousands of people looking for work at the moment.

  • DelhiBelly on 27/05/2020 - 14:48

    You should be able to stand them down or terminate if they don't show up from 1 June onwards.

  • Lvlong on 27/05/2020 - 15:58

    I feel for you. I would look at the bright side of this. You will have the chance to find someone better.
    As soon as you stop paying them , they will not getting any JK . And you should be able to claim back any JK payout . But i would be very annoy if i were you. Best of luck.

  • LFO on 27/05/2020 - 16:45
    -5

    Is the anger because they managed to get ahead?
    To get a benefit?

    Let it go!!

    You'll get the money paid to them and, at then end, we tax payers payed them to study and progress.
    I call that a win-win resolution.

    If they don't wish to come back then probably there are better alternatives out there and, perhaps, your business may try to be "irresistible" to committed workers.

  • JungliChilli on 27/05/2020 - 19:13

    Fire them. Im sure there's many others who woild be willing to work. Who knoes you might even find someone on ozb!

    • CocaKoala on 27/05/2020 - 19:24
      +4

      Fire the employee how, exactly? It looks like this person had employed the staff as a casual in order to avoid giving them the benefits of permanent employees, in spite of the employee being "core staff", who is apparently being paid very little more than what the job keeper allowance itself pays.

      • JungliChilli on 27/05/2020 - 19:47

        Don't see how that matters. Even better if they are casual. No need to call them to return. Just employ someone new and get going on with life, everyone's happy but it's a loss for the employee who doesn't want to get back to work.

        • CocaKoala on 28/05/2020 - 11:01
          +1

          Yeah, I'm on your side here. It's just the op who seems to feel the need to "vent", which is complete bs because they're probably not paying their "core staff" well enough that they'd want to return. This "essential staff" who they're unable to find a replacement for quickly also happens to be employed as a casual. Like, what was the OP expecting?!

          The only option as you're saying is, find someone else.

  • kaleidoscope on 27/05/2020 - 19:56

    Give him ultimatum and start looking for new talent. You will perhaps find a better employee.

  • SlickMick on 27/05/2020 - 21:20
    +2

    You shouldn't have put them off. Surely the purpose of jobkeeper was for people to keep their jobs i.e. keep working.
    I've seen restaurants cleaning and painting - surely there is something you could have had them do??

    I totally agree with whoever said this was mishandled. I heard somebody complaining that he had to work but he knew somebody who received the payment without working. Our fearless leader was asked about it and said "oh no, he has to work to receive the payment", but apparently nobody told the employers??

    The pensioner handout last time was a disaster, jobkeeper and the rest of the way COVID-19 has been handled is a disgrace. These morons are surely going to bankrupt us.

    I'm owed 10s of 1000s of dollars by various family members, which I was years off getting repaid, and in the last week they've all asked for payout figures coz apparently many that were broke are now loaded.

    • DemocracyManifest on 28/05/2020 - 16:05
      +1

      Well, not loaded, but in a financial state where they can repay. Which is great for you

  • syousef on 27/05/2020 - 22:56
    +2

    Unemployment is high at the moment. It's an employer's market. Sure it's a short term inconvenience but if this employee was sick, and coughing all over the place would you want them back? Raising your own blood pressure for no possible gain is sily. Move on. Be glad that Jobkeeper isn't coming out of your pocket in the end. Without Jobkeeper would ANY of your staff be coming back?

  • Sunproof on 28/05/2020 - 09:48
    +1

    Get rid of him and hire somebody who isn't eligible for job keeper. Although it'll obviously cost you financially there's every chance they'll work twice as hard too :)

  • johno3456 on 28/05/2020 - 12:16
    -4

    If you could retrospectively cancel job keeper for them, then you dont get the govt money (and would have to repay it to ATO) and you may have to take civil action against employee for past over payments.

    If the issue is you paid them and they are not now coming into work then just terminate their employment. You clearly dont trust them anymore.

    They can be treated as abandoning employment if they fail to return to work after a period of authorised leave. A few awards require 3 days absence, most dont. If you requested their return Saturday then the 3 days are up. No notice required.

    They can be terminated without notice for malingering, inefficiency, neglect of duty or misconduct. Malingering includes faking it to stay way from work.

    You cannot make them give back the past job keeper money which is paid to you anyway after you paid them.

    If causal then stop bringing them in and terminate as well.

  • haemolysis on 28/05/2020 - 13:39
    +7

    Whilst I admit I empathise with OP more than a scumbag employee rorting the system for free money… Having SAID that, I do hate when employers act like one, single employee is so critical that their absence is a serious burden.

    Nobody essential should be relied upon. ANYONE can fall sick, get into a car accident, have a family emergency, whatever. If you’re not ready for someone to not be around at a moments notice, or without notice, that’s your problem.

    You either put some contingency in place for events like this, or you don’t put critical jobs in the hands of “1”.

  • imahapyboy on 28/05/2020 - 14:09

    Thanks to SM!!

  • ozhunter on 28/05/2020 - 14:44
    +1

    It sucks OP, but you can't force someone to work. Just terminate him asap.

    I can see why people don't want to work. I don't think there has ever been a better time to be unemployed.

  • Samsungnote10 on 28/05/2020 - 15:54

    OP, my 2c
    ive been a business owner, and employer and casual employee

    I dont know the termination process of Jobkeeper, just the basic jobkeeper process

    every employer and employee thinks they get the raw end of the deal,

    one of the hardest parts of owning a business is dealing with staff, it sux!

    judging by you are reopening Jun 1, I assume you are in retail/hospitality, staff in these areas can be even harder to deal with

    unfortunately its part of being an owner

    this employee is casual so you dont need to issue warnings etc, you just dont roster them,

    if you want to do the right thing do the right steps to stop their jobkeeper payments

    hire new and better staff,
    yes its going to cost you more as opposed to jobkeeper support, but what can you do?
    this employee according to you has given you BS excuses not to turn up, so obviously they dont value their job too much,
    or they have entitlement mentality of staying at home while wanting to receive $1500 per fortnight

    TLDR: if they are casual, stop rostering them immediately (ie terminate) and make sure they stop getting job keeper as soon as possible

  • tik tok on 28/05/2020 - 15:56

    Oh man the OP got so much shit canning … or should I say schooling

  • equitygame on 28/05/2020 - 16:28
    +12

    Staff come and go. They're not your slaves.
    Train someone new and move on.

  • YoursTruly on 28/05/2020 - 17:19
    +7

    Are you treating And taking care your staff well?

    Take care of your staff well and they in return will take care of your business better.

  • 91rs on 28/05/2020 - 22:01
    +8

    "In hindsight I should have held the payment back until they responded"

    You sound like a shitty boss and person posting that, maybe its part of the /vent but maybe you meant it.
    Once they're gone just don't take them back if it doesn't work out for them.
    But don't be a C word to others where you have this power trip if someone should or shouldn't get government money during this time if it was on offer.

  • daddydirtsurfer on 29/05/2020 - 13:32
    +2

    I am a cafe owner, as we shut it down in March due to Covid. All my staff have to return to work because we told them - if you don't come to work, we can't pay you as we will notify the government.

    So they came back to work.

  • BrokeB-tch on 29/05/2020 - 15:21

    Out of curiosity what sort of business it?

  • sfk10 on 29/05/2020 - 16:24

    So how long has this employee worked for you?. Would they be still working there pre-covid.

    If they dont want to work from june 1st. Just stop the payment from thereafter as they have resigned. It sucks but theres No need to get nitpicky and ato them.

    As far as i know you can stop the JK anytime when you do your wages on your stp platform.

  • windowshopper on 29/05/2020 - 18:30

    Can't employers just dob them in to the government?

  • CheeryCheapskate on 29/05/2020 - 20:44
    +2

    I'd agree with termination; my only advice is to put in in writing such as an email in case you need evidence for any objections/liabilities, etc. I definitely feel for OP, many people have lost their jobs so it sucks (to me) to hear that they don't want to work but still want the money. I know there will be people that take advantage of tax payers'/government money but I'm old fashioned and believe in an honest day work for fair pay (if they can work).

  • Hangryuman on 30/05/2020 - 12:50

    Selfishness is rule number one - survival in tough times, etc.

    Young people tend to be unaware their thoughtlessness offends others, so they may be simply presuming you rich boss don't need them

    life is learning something new every day - no $hit $herlock - have a backup plan

    what's a backup ? yeah.

    I used to teach project management - an example of backup was the New Orleans flooding from Hurricane Katrina - US banks are mostly small individual banks who had their computer servers in the basement - all those who relied on that and were flooded were Out Of Business forever the next day.

    Only one small bank apparently had an offsite backup - reciprocal relationship with another small bank in a nearby town unaffected by the flood - each had an offsite backup of the other's customer accounts in case of disaster (site destruction).

    As a result, that one bank not only continued unaffected, but also picked up all the customers of the banks whose computers went under (literally).

    So - obvs in retrospect, planning for the worst - before it happens - can leave you in the best position - after a disaster - from which we are now slowly arising from - ooh - the future is bright out there … !

  • TSH on 08/06/2020 - 00:33

    Probably ease up and take your knee of their neck.
    Let em breathe.
    Are you angry that he's wised up and is looking for a better deal in life.
    Sure you can snitch on him and recoup his pay but don't begrudge him a chance to improve.
    Were you ever working for the man when you decided to start your own business.

    Best thing about covid is with all the casual jobs lost, youngsters are taking a long hard look at themselves.
    The reporting of gaming of the system to one side, there should be no ill will toward the employee.
    Probably used that one more payment to pay for his course.

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