How to Fight Karens?

Ghosteye on 17/05/2020 - 18:14

Hey guys,

Thought I'd never see this day come, but it is now here and I need help because I'm at a loss for what to do. So here's a little background to bolster your understanding.

I was casually talking to my mother earlier and we spoke about her workplace and how there was an anti-vaxxer there. She talked about how this anti-vaxxer was loud,obnoxious and trying to convince everyone in her workplace to not take vaccines.

My mother is your typical boomer (40-60 years old), very little knowledge about science and whatnot, and her workplace is of a similar ilk. She talk about how there was this anti-vaxxer that had started to convince other boomers in her workplace to not take vaccines, by showing them internet websites and youtube videos. She forwarded a picture of a list to my mother, listing all the ingredients in the vaccine, and because of their scientific nature. e.g 1-2 hydroxychloride, di-hydrogen monoxide etc etc (forgive my high school chem skills) she said it did initially scare her, and many others at her workplace.

I managed to convince my mother that vaccines were indeed good, and that herd-immunity was important. But this debunking took quite a bit of time. I had to try and link real life examples that she sees in everyday life, and try to link those experiences to positively reinforce the fact that vaccines were indeed good, and that some side effects that could be seen in some people were not related to the vaccine being bad.

It seems pretty scary how anti-vaxxers can sway opinions so quickly, but scientific proofs take time to explain and relate.

But it was pretty alarming at how the workplace at where she works at (they deal with children on a daily basis) has not fired her for her beliefs as they are putting other kids in danger. In addition to that, I was disheartened to hear that some of them were fearful enough that they skipped on their flu shots this year. Purely because of this anti-vaxxer and the coronavirus scare.

I would like to hear about your experiences if any, and how you managed to convince others that vaccines were in fact, good. Perhaps I could learn to teach others more effectively too.

Health & Beauty

Comments

    • pippohippo on 18/05/2020 - 13:12
      +1

      sadly our healthcare is pretty good at keeping them alive.

  • jonkvh on 18/05/2020 - 12:06
    -6

    If you trust big Pharma with your body, go for vaccines. With vaccine makers getting immunity world wide from any lawsuits, I'd think twice before trusting their word, on what is really good for you.

    • p1 ama on 18/05/2020 - 12:27
      +3

      Well, you could say "if you trust viruses/bacteria with your body, then don't go for vaccines"?

      If you trust cars with your body, go for a drive. If you trust engineers with your body, live in a house…etc. It shouldn't really be about a question of trust, it should be an objective measure of risk.

      It shouldn't be about who we trust, as non-doctors, non-engineers, non-mechanics, and so on, we don't anywhere near the knowledge or experience to judge what is safe and unsafe.

      We (as a society) generally don't trust pharmaceutical companies anymore than we trust car companies, food companies…etc., that's why we rely on regulators and the scientific community regarding what is safe and unsafe.

    • dizzle on 18/05/2020 - 12:42

      I trust big pharma, doctors, scientists and health practitioners more than I trust people who have talked to someone that read something on the internet. Yes, big pharma are trying to make money, but if so many doctors world wide agree and so few doctors and scientists disagree, then I'll give them my money for the sake of my health.

      It's like saying big airlines are what's keeping the flat earth theory down, or big environment are what's keeping climate change in the headlines.

      TLDR I'll listen to the vast majority of doctors and scientists, even if it makes money for other people.

      • whooah1979 on 18/05/2020 - 12:53

        I trust Sanofi to make money. You should all get vaccinated to help our buy.

        • p1 ama on 18/05/2020 - 19:42
          +1

          Sanofi want to make money as much as Toyota, Woolworths and your local deli want to make money. Should you also avoid them?

    • slewis69au on 18/05/2020 - 12:52
      +3

      This kind of uninformed twaddle is what causes the Pete Evans of this world to exist.

      Everyone on this planet has at some point trusted "big pharma" (whatever that is) with their body.

      Even if you don't agree with me on that, set that to one side go and look at one simple thing - MMR Vaccine (which is the one that anti-vaxxers always say causes autism) how much does it cost per dose, how much does it cost to produce per dose, what percentage of profit does it provide to anyone that makes it?

      I will wait here until you come back and say "Holy crap they make almost nothing". Older vaccines are not money spinners, sure they don't do it for free but it's not how they are forecasting their company growth! For some vaccines it's pretty much a PR exercise more than a profit incentive.

      If you want to be suspicious of Pharma companies be suspicious where there is the remotest justification for doing so - BRAND NEW DRUGS (not vaccines, treatment drugs) you know the ones that cost thousands of dollars a dose - much more financial incentive for insufficient testing/coverups there.

  • doncarajo on 18/05/2020 - 12:06
    +6

    People can believe erroneous things all the time. You, for example, think that boomers can be "40-60 years old".

  • TimmyTims on 18/05/2020 - 12:43
    +2

    I found a good way to talk with conspiracy theorists is to throw away their "truth" with a more absurd one. "We never went to the moon", actually there is no moon. It is a weather balloon raised every night by the government to reflect UV light that makes it easier to track people with traffic light cameras.

    "Vaccines hurt people", actually that is propaganda from (insert other country here, Russia/ China/ New Zealand) to weaken our herd immunity so it would be easier to invade.

    • Ughhh on 18/05/2020 - 13:28
      +1

      If you can't convince them, confuse them!

  • b0rnwithabeard on 18/05/2020 - 13:18
    +1

    as long as your mum isn't fooled, I wouldn't bother. These idiots are everywhere, and you're gonna wear yourself out if you insist on battling all of them. Tell you mum to report Karen to HR though, that's some potentially business-damaging shit she's trying to pull

  • superdarkhumour on 18/05/2020 - 13:50
    -6

    You are as bad as Karen.

    Have you yourself investigated the contents of the vaccines?
    Have you understood the health implications, positive and negative, of the proposed vaccines?
    Have you considered the impacts of certain contents of the vaccines on the health of people at different levels of vulnerability?

    Anyway, the point is you should fully educate yourself by understanding the effects of such vaccines and not only listen and agree to statements that suit your opinions.

    Then go to Karen, tell her why you think this way and have an open conversation about the issue, then let Karen decide for herself.

    • greatlamp on 18/05/2020 - 16:10
      +2

      Pointless. Neither one has the knowledge or background to understand the issue, and the argument will devolve into the predictable "call to knowledgeable authority!" "No! You can't trust authority! Do your own research!"

  • msimpatient on 18/05/2020 - 14:02
    +3

    I am not an anti vaxx person, but after I had my first child I felt scared due to the information out there and if I was condemning my child either way.

    Being proactive is a lot more difficult then staying inactive and just hoping all will be ok.

    At the end of the day I came to terms with the risk vs reward.

    If my child contracted one of the preventable illnesses, the risk of harm is so much greater than having an injection.

    When you look at risk vs benefit, in most cases, the answer is a no brainer.

    Perhaps use getting into the car for a drive risk of harm vs a vaccine risk of harm.

    • sardines on 18/05/2020 - 14:38
      +2

      same here, even though im 100% behind vaccines first kid at back of my mind was worry but stories of kids dying of preventable viruses etc i would not live myself if my kid died or got really sick…risks vs reward as you state

    • LFO on 18/05/2020 - 16:45
      -4

      If my child contracted one of the preventable illnesses, the risk of harm is so much greater than having an injection.

      Exactly!
      It is a very personal decision.

      What will be more painful for you?:
      1. your child suffering an illness and perhaps dying because of your decision?
      2. your child suffering a complication and live handicapped because of your decision?

      That is the big issue.
      Some parents have different views.

      Death from a preventable illness is a bad mark, an unacceptable risk.

      Negative lifelong side-effect is just a … a side effect, an acceptable liability.

      • gromit on 18/05/2020 - 23:22
        +5

        You made it look like a balance between 2 equal choices. This is the sort of misleading presentation of information anti vaxxers thrive on and it is dead wrong.

        A more correct version. (made up numbers but to give you an indicator)
        1. you choose not to vaccinate and Your child suffers a preventable illness and dies or is given a life long disability. probability maybe 1 in 100,000
        2. Child suffers handicap or death from vaccine 1 in 100,000,000 chance.

        This isn't a complicated decision. option 1 significantly increases your childs risk of death or permanent disability and not only that it significantly increases the risks for others in society that can't have vaccines or are vulnerable due to compromised immune systems.

        • LFO on 20/05/2020 - 19:25
          -4

          This isn't a complicated decision.

          Yes it is a complex and personal decision.
          Obviously NOT for you but it is for a loving parent.

          To go to the extremes:

          Choose between a dead child or an incapacitated/retarded child

          Visit your child's grave or see her/him vegetating next to you, day after day. Worrying about who will look after her/him if/when you die.

          Again, YOU have done the choice based in your values and emotions. Good for you.

          It may not be the same for a/another parent.
          One size does NOT fit all.

          We are talking about emotions here, not logic and reason.
          Statistics and probabilities do not control emotions.

          • gromit on 20/05/2020 - 23:02

            @LFO: No I have done the choice based on logic, education and reason. Why would anyone choose to risk the life of their child or anyone elses for that matter is beyond me, the only excuse is ignorance and lack of education. Saying I don't want to do that because it reduces my childs chance of death and disability is just beyond belief.

            We are ABSOLUTELY TALKING ABOUT logic and reason. it is insane to even suggest it is a reasonable choice emotional or otherwise.

            • Croshema on 20/05/2020 - 23:55
              +1

              @gromit: Someone appears to be blinded by love.

  • sardines on 18/05/2020 - 14:35

    as people state dont bother but at my workplace there was a loud anti-vaxxer that used to harass expecting parents..I put up photos of kids in infectious diseases wards and kids sick of whooping cough etc on staff notice board ..she didnt shut up but made my point … the The Skeptics Guide to the Universe had a page on how to talk to anti-vaxxers constructively ..I would also see work policy as many have suggested vaccines to shield vulnerable workers and post it on notice board

  • Bargainbag on 18/05/2020 - 14:38
    +4

    My mother is your typical boomer (40-60 years old)

    That age bracket is not a typical boomer

    Boomers are currently 56-60 years old - anyone younger than that is GEN X:

    As of 2020, the breakdown by age looks like this:

    Baby Boomers: Baby boomers were born between 1944 and 1964. They're current between 56-76 years old (76 million in U.S.)
    Gen X: Gen X was born between 1965 - 1979 and are currently between 41-55 years old (82 million people in U.S.)
    Gen Y: Gen Y, or Millennials, were born between 1980 and 1994. They are currently between 26-40 years old.
    Gen Y.1 = 25-29 years old (31 million people in U.S.)
    Gen Y.2 = 29-39 (42 million people in U.S.)
    Gen Z: Gen Z is the newest generation to be named and were born between 1995 and 2015. They are currently between 5-25 years old (nearly 74 million in U.S.)

  • BartholemewH on 18/05/2020 - 14:38
    +3

    Who has time to worry about vaccines when I've been so sick since they installed that huge transformer on the pole outside my bedroom?

  • [Deactivated] on 18/05/2020 - 14:40
    +1

    There was a time before vaccines where infant mortality rates were high - like 50%+ high. People have loads of kids, partly because due to lack of reproductive health knowledge and hedging the survival of kids in their family. Then vaccines came along and deaths from these diseases fell dramatically - single percentages.

    HOWEVER there are a small percentage of kids that don't react well to vaccines. The anti vaxxers are not wrong when they bring these cases up. But if you do away with vaccines, death rates will shoot up to 50%+ again.

    We need vaccination to prevent regressing into the old days of high mortality. We also need to have a system to test for kids who are allergic to these vaccines.

  • telljoolz on 18/05/2020 - 14:44
    +1

    I would try find a reputable/official source of truth (Government or world health), and explain why the anti vaxxer sites they are using are disreputable. This would save you having to document your own arguments, and also show your mum etc, how to discern junk from truth.

    Its like whenever I see an urban myth posted by someone on my Facebook. I just post the snopes response back.

  • infinite on 18/05/2020 - 14:49
    +5

    OP's definition of a boomer is out by over a decade.

    Sounds like OP's real issue is they are projecting…………

  • Emerald Owl on 18/05/2020 - 14:57
    +5

    You’re misusing the word Karen. Most middle age mums vaccinate their kids.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2020 - 16:39

      The Karen persona is far beyond the point of just "middle aged mum"

      The boomer comment might be a little misaimed (I'm sure many boomers vaccinated their kids…)

  • EyeRoll on 18/05/2020 - 15:24
    +5

    OP: "But it was pretty alarming at how the workplace at where she works at has not fired her for her beliefs"

    That's shocking. I'll go get the manager for you.

  • Hangryuman on 18/05/2020 - 15:24
    +2

    I thought the definition of a Karen was someone who asked to see the manager.

    but hey here's a definition saying they 'usually never vaccinate because of "big pharma putting poison in vaccines that cause autism" because "autistic kids are retareded"'- https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=A%20Karen

    suggest get your mother - whenever she hears woman doing anti-vax raves - to call back audibly so other colleagues can hear - 'Yes Karen !'

    and just repeat it enough until other colleagues pick it up and it becomes the collective outcry welcome announcement every time Karen walks into the area, and she eventually decides she's needed elsewhere !

    • MessyG on 18/05/2020 - 20:21

      I always wonder how parents of autistic children must feel when they hear antivaxxers bleating about how it might give children autism like that's the worst thing in the world. It's really sh**ty.

      • infinite on 19/05/2020 - 16:32
        -1

        Maybe they shouldn't have given their kids the flu jab then :)

        • MessyG on 19/05/2020 - 21:09
          -1

          The discovery of autism predates vaccines. Especially the flu vaccine. :)

  • djgreedo on 18/05/2020 - 15:38
    +2

    ingredients in the vaccine, and because of their scientific nature. e.g 1-2 hydroxychloride, di-hydrogen monoxide etc

    Show your mother the ingredients of a banana:

    https://jameskennedymonash.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/ingre…

    The anti-vaxxer is committing an 'appeal to nature' logical fallacy:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

    • endotherm on 19/05/2020 - 04:00

      Don't forget that bananas are also naturally radioactive.

  • lainey13 on 18/05/2020 - 15:52
    +1

    Anti-vaxxer != a Karen

    • LFO on 18/05/2020 - 16:31

      a Karen

      I though it was the mother?

  • gromit on 18/05/2020 - 15:53
    +3

    Firstly boomers are not 40-60, they would be 55-75 now and if in that age group they are far less likely to believe anti vaxxers as they have likely witnessed first hand someone crippled or dead from polio or measles. If they are in that age group then simply remind them of polio. If in the non boomer range you mentioned then it can be harder as they haven't had the same exposure to that pain and misery. But direct them to good scientific information, or simply show them a breakdown of the chemicals their body is made up of, then those chemical names in vaccines will sound far less scary. In the end Anti Vaxxers rely on poorly informed or educated people or simply people prone to believing conspiracy thoeries. The best you can do is provide evidence (something the anti vaxxers can't provide), sadly though it is much easier to provoke fear than it is education.

    • FW190 on 19/05/2020 - 07:17
      +1

      Firstly boomers are not 40-60, they would be 55-75 now

      I think for Kids These Day, anyone who is older then 25 is a "boomer", ala "Ok Boomer!" meme :)

      • gromit on 19/05/2020 - 09:43
        +2

        that is just a truly sad indictment of under 25's.. Has our education system really sunk so low?

        • infinite on 19/05/2020 - 16:39

          It's so painfully pathetic now. We go out of our way to teach the kids properly at home about all sorts of basics that kids should still be learning in schools. Our kids are awarded certificates and medals/ribbons on an almost weekly basis for stupid stuff like participating in being a lunch order monitor (collecting lunches for kids who have parents too lazy to pack a healthy lunch box any day of the week) and then taught that "competition of any kind is a cancerous example of toxic masculinity"……. to a 10yr old kid. The moronic crap we have to bring up with the school principal these days is just mind boggling.

  • LFO on 18/05/2020 - 16:29
    -2

    Anti-vaxxer versus vaxxer-adict ?

    It is obscene for one side to try to rule the other.

    Just do what you assess as best.

    • ozhunter on 18/05/2020 - 17:22

      Just do what you assess as best.

      Sounds like anti-vaxxer talk to me.

      I need you to be injected with this drug so I can protect myself.

      • LFO on 20/05/2020 - 19:30

        I need you to be injected with this drug so I can protect myself.

        And that sounds like the real reason!!

        Me first, me second and then me as well for third place !!!!
        It is all about me!

    • MessyG on 18/05/2020 - 20:20
      +1

      Well that's a new level. I really like how you've made this into a Game of Thrones esque power struggle where one side has to 'rule'. Not about you know, pandemic prevention, newborn baby protection, protection of the elderly and the immunosuppressed ie people and children with leukaemia. Nope, it's about 'ruling' each other.

      Let me save you some time, I identify as an RFID 5g controlled minion of Bill Gates sheeple snowflake etc.

  • Maglia Nera on 18/05/2020 - 17:11
    +1

    but I like Karen

  • ozbjunkie on 18/05/2020 - 17:13
    +3

    Had this conversation with an antivaxxer only last week.

    I never knew anyone that died from these diseases we are all supposed to get vaccinated against.

    That's because we have vaccines for those diseases.

    But my kids weren't vaccinated and none of them died.

    That's because the other kids were vaccinated.

    …actually, my son got shopping cough…

    SMFH

    • Orion au on 19/05/2020 - 14:37
      +2

      I know consumerism can be bad, but my god I didn't realise it could actually make you physically unwell.

      • ozbjunkie on 19/05/2020 - 18:42
        +1

        Lol. Whooping of course.

        Although shopping cough at the moment is perhaps the greater danger.

  • jubjub69 on 18/05/2020 - 17:16
    -1

    I know right. These karens trigger me like nothing else.

    Tell them to simply be a good global citizen and take the shot and download the app. Trust the plan. They know more than we would ever know. Anyone who entertains any other thought must be shamed, labelled and ostracized.

    • EyeRoll on 19/05/2020 - 11:13
      +1

      "Anyone who entertains any other thought must be shamed, labelled and ostracized."

      Okay Karen.

    • infinite on 19/05/2020 - 16:43

      You can be a good citizen and get vaccinated without needing to put a data and personal info harvesting app on your phone.

  • tsugnev on 18/05/2020 - 17:45

    Does anyone have a specific link to one of these videos they seem to show?

  • J6 on 18/05/2020 - 17:57
    +1

    Go to the official bill gates Instagram and read the comments. It will make.you want to give up on trying to convert antivaxxers.

  • serpserpserp on 18/05/2020 - 18:38
    +6

    Do you know that 40 year olds are either the last of the Gen-X or the start of Gen-Y (depending on which literature you reference) I can't even read the rest of your post if you are so far off what a boomer is.

  • tee123 on 18/05/2020 - 19:00

    As I read through the comments I find myself lost in a flurry oiof emotions. Understanding that the anti-vaxxers sound obnoxious at times and the 'educated' have a humourous view. I am somewhat of a conspiracy theorist myself and let me tell you that there is no measure to how far the rabbit hole goes. If anyone wants to have an opinion, study both sides yourself. Dont listen to biased opinions. Then have the same message to those who insist otherwise. Have a wonderful day

    • MessyG on 18/05/2020 - 20:14
      +1

      Mate you should have been on the Internet in the nineties. Although I see Bill Gates still features heavily these days, and that his evil world domination plans have considerably broadened lol.

  • syousef on 18/05/2020 - 20:12
    +1

    You show them real disgusting horrible historical pictures of children that were killed and maimed by the diseases we vaccinate against.

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/photo-all-vpd.html

    Don't even bother with logic, except to prove the photos or others like them are real.

  • MessyG on 18/05/2020 - 20:12
    +3

    I don't buy this post. Your Mum is either in her 40s, 50s or 60s. They're all very different decades. Also:

    1. Boomers aren't Karens. Karens are Gen-X with an overstraightened bob. Boomers don't know how to use straighteners.
    2. Boomers love vaccines. Half of them had polio or knew someone with it.
    3. Antivaxxers, while afraid of the formaldehyde in a vaccine in spite of there being more in a pear, are smart enough not to include dihydrogen monoxide aka water on a list of vaccine excipients.
    4. Even Karen's are a bit old to be antivaxxers. Gen X are far too cynical to get onto the latest fashionable conspiracy theory bandwagons.

    This post is about someone. Not convinced it's your Mum though, more holes than a swiss cheese.

  • haidasalami on 18/05/2020 - 22:45

    In a nation of Karens, its always a tough battle. All the best.

  • mousie on 19/05/2020 - 06:11
    +2

    Should be entitled how to argue with Pete Evans.

  • timli on 19/05/2020 - 08:58

    In China, they have no choice. 5000 have passed with the pandemic.
    In USA, 90,000 have passed with Corona. Choice was theirs.

    In Australia, the choice is ours. I have vaccinated year in, year out with the flu vac. Same with those close to me. We've never had bad encounters with the flu.

    Unless you have allergies, the choice is yours.

    P.S. I work in a medical related field so it wasn't a hard time convincing. I'd say it worked 70% of the time. (7/10 would decide on annual fluvac)

  • MilkDrinker on 19/05/2020 - 09:08

    Penn and teller did a bullshit episode about vaccines a few years back. Doesn’t help that autism is hard to detect until around vaccination age making mothers and fathers think falsely they might be related. That show is probably the easiest way I think that you can explain the problem.

  • Gorgeousmorgeous on 19/05/2020 - 09:27
    +1

    As an RN I've dealt with a few anti-vaxxers. It is difficult to de-bunk their bs because they are fixed in their beliefs regardless of science.
    I would suggest that your mum talks to management and maybe requests an education session from your local primary health network to provide a balanced view.

  • Purpleheffs on 19/05/2020 - 09:48

    Give her this link: https://images.app.goo.gl/g6cLxNieDNCDXGB4A

    It shows the chemical make up of bananas, eggs and blueberries. Looks just as scary and has a lot of the same stuff.

  • Ace26 on 19/05/2020 - 09:52

    Lol for di-hydrogen monoxide being bad.

  • colossus on 19/05/2020 - 09:58
    +1

    This story concerns me. I had hoped the only good thing to come from COVID-19 would be the death of the anti-vaccination movement, through the understanding of the importance of vaccines.

    I always found it ironic the anti-vaccination movement rose was because vaccines worked so well and we no longer have smallpox or polio, to name a few. Without a threat present, vaccines could be seen as an inconvenience rather than what they really are, a necessity.

  • Drakesy on 19/05/2020 - 10:05

    Dw this will die out when foxtel and sky news finally go bust. I dont like seeing the demise of any company but when it peddles conspiracy theories and stories that can result in deaths I dont have any sympathy.

    RIP rupert Murdoch's empire

  • dirtybigbjelke on 19/05/2020 - 10:23

    She (Your Mum) should speak to your grandparents and ask them how grateful they were to get a Polio Vaccine.

    • Croshema on 20/05/2020 - 23:58

      Cue the people who say the timing was coincidental and that it simply went away because of improved hygiene.

      I’m in some off grid living Facebook groups, I still struggle to believe the craziness, but apparently I am just one of the sheeple.

  • striker5950 on 19/05/2020 - 11:29
    +2

    i read that as how to fight Koreans..

    • Munki on 19/05/2020 - 13:19
      +1

      I was just about to post this. I was thinking I'd missed out on the news about the Korean war reigniting again.

    • Andard on 28/05/2020 - 16:59

      Same

  • Ironic fear on 19/05/2020 - 14:11
    +4

    Get your hands on that post I've seen floating around of the chemical make-up of an apple.
    Get your mum to ask Karen if she'd accept any of those in her body, then when she inevitably says no to them all, then shows she doesn't know jack cos it's an apple.

  • Punda on 19/05/2020 - 17:26

    Each to their own, some people believe they have been vaccine damaged and I respect that. Just like bible bashers and vegans…… don’t push your beliefs on me.

  • sarahlump on 19/05/2020 - 17:49
    +1

    There's nothing you can do. The beliefs of your mum's coworker are her own. They're actually none of your business. We all know anti-vaxxers are super cringe but they have the right to be. Listen to the experts and don't fall prey to the lay person portraying an expert.

  • Dentshop on 19/05/2020 - 18:36

    My advice for any talking politics at work - nod and smile.

  • MementoMori on 19/05/2020 - 19:30
    -2

    The thing that everyone misses with the 'vaxx vs anti-vaxx' thing is that it's not all or nothing. The media uses this falsehood of duality to get everyone fighting about it. Like most things in life, there are many shades of gray.

    For example:

    • You can believe in vaccine theory
    • You can believe that it's good to take vaccines and take them
    • But you can question if the huge number of vaccines we are encouraged to have these days are a good thing or not, especially given the profit motive here. Not to mention, do they all even work? What's the likelhood of side effects? What's in them?
    • Maybe just the old school amount you had when you were a kid were enough? (the 'classics' or Japanese vaccine schedule). Surely it's wise to take the minimum possible required to give the best result (or just some basic set, whatever that is).
    • It's a perfectly reasonable stance to not go blindly jabbing yourself with all kinds of additional things or just taking a drug companies word for it. Ever had a really bad reaction to a medication? It's not fun… was only supposed to be '1% chance' according to the pamphlet yet 3 of my 5 friends got the same negative side effect.

    I'm vaccinated, am happy I've had them (well, especially given nothing went wrong and when I was young it was like 12 instead of 40). This doesn't mean I'm going to blindly take all future possible vaccines, especially those that have no long term studies.

    Each and every vaccine needs to be looked into individually on it's pros and cons like any other class of medication. Until I do that for each one (I have no need to, so why bother?), it's OK if I have a neutral stance towards them. My body my choice.

    • MessyG on 19/05/2020 - 21:16
      +4

      Drug companies don't especially profit off vaccines. They can't charge a premium for them because they're a public health initiative. Moreso in Australia because the government negotiates drug costs with the drug companies to drive them down on our behalf. (This does not happen in America, the insurers collude with big pharma - but the money isn't in vaccines). The level of evidence that needs to be provided to the Aus government that they work is very high. And any vaccine that doesn't work or that does cause side effects that outweigh the benefit (the CSL flu vaccine from a few years back), is quickly removed from the market. We do good bullsh*t detection in this country, far greater than the US.

      No intervention is side effect free. But from a risk-benefit perspective, this is why it's done. Ever read the product information pamphlet for panadol? Terrifying. That's because any side effect that occurs around taking the drug, regardless of whether or not the drug actually caused it, or no matter how incredibly rare, has to be reported in this country. And side effects occur on a wide spectrum of "I got a red lump on my arm" to anaphylaxis.

      Medicines for chronic diseases that you have to take for 20-30 years, that's where the money is.

      TLDR; If it's on the Australian vaccination schedule, my kids are getting them (and have so far without issue). I'd rather take the rare risk of a side effect than meningitis.

      • MementoMori on 20/05/2020 - 11:40
        -1

        Point taken, I'll take your word for it. Having said that, even if the margins aren't high, were still talking billions in profits that would not exist if the vaccine wasn't on some kind of government schedule.

        To the rest of your post, that's fantastic. I'm happy you were able to educate yourself on the pros and cons and made an informed choice for you and your family on each vaccine individually.

        Do you support others doing the same or would you want forcible vaccinations of the entire schedule for them?

        • tomlikesbeetroot on 20/05/2020 - 12:22
          +4

          Do you support others doing the same or would you want forcible vaccinations for them?

          I would support this. Because I am not a medical expert and neither are the vast majority of the population.

          As such 'educating ourselves' to make an informed choice is not something that the general population is fit to undertake. The vast majority of those opposed to vaccinations will see posts on social media and watch a few youtube videos and consider this as becoming educated when typically what will happen is that people will selectively read articles and watch videos that support their own point pre-existing point of view.

          The point you make about billions in profit doesn't make sense to me. A vaccine is far less profitable for a pharmaceutical company than a treatment for a disease. Look at something incurable and with no vaccine available like HIV, a patient will need to take daily medicine for life. Those billions of profit made by having a vaccine would be far higher if the vaccine didn't exist and the drug company was selling treatment to sick patients.

        • slewis69au on 25/05/2020 - 12:25

          You're still wrong - they don't make billions in profits from Vaccines - go check, i'll wait here until you come back. Read my comment above. You're being suspicious about entirely the wrong thing.

          I love this idea of educating yourself. Probably nobody on this forum has even close to enough knowledge to understand the pros and cons in detail. It's a furphy made up by people like Pete Evans - he has actually SAID "Why would i trust a doctor when i know what i feel is right".

          Do you educate yourself about the science of how the internal combustion engine works before you buy a car? What about those dangerous planes? Do you fully understand how flight works, how jet engines work to make a fully educated decision before you buy a ticket?

          If you've decided to never trust an expert i but educate yourself instead i assume you know how your Microwave works and you've measured the radiation and types of radiation it emits each time before you turn it on?

          I could go on, but i have better things to do.

  • Bunnyburger on 19/05/2020 - 20:18
    +7

    If noone has mentioned it I've always liked this quote by Isaac Asimov:

    'The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'

  • thriftysach on 19/05/2020 - 22:04

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=papfxpEsCmE

    Damn, Karen made it to OZB.

  • LilDude on 20/05/2020 - 13:46

    If you're vaccinated then you shouldn't be scared of Karens because you're immune already from the vaccines.

    • Laninchris on 21/05/2020 - 01:56
      +1

      Not entirely, sadly… vaccines are super effective, but they’re not 100% effective for 100% of people- and there are babies who are too young to be vaccinated and die after being exposed to diseases like Whooping Cough, and ladies like my Mum who is having chemo and is immunocompromised… I’d like to see an Anti-vaxxer care for a newborn with Whooping Cough, experience the devastation in the Mother’s eyes, and then still try to justify their 'right' to NOT vaccinate.

  • mahdoo on 20/05/2020 - 18:14
    +1

    I find these pretty good for dunking the ingredients BS. The blog owner is a Chem professor, and has quite a few of these.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/jameskennedymonash.wordpress.co…

  • plasmoske on 20/05/2020 - 21:33
    +1

    I got the same thing at my workplace. 45 year old guy (who immigrated to Australia 20 years ago and barely speaks any English) was raving on about how 5G is killing people and how the coronavirus is fake (government are faking it so they can control everyone). It's been about 2 months now and every single day, he goes on about 5G. The whole workplace is annoyed by it. I've even tried arguing with him but never works.

    He can't even explain how it works. Basically "5G is dangerous. It has more power than 4G. People are dying from it. It gives headaches and fever. It's not coronavirus."

    And no matter what I show him. He won't buy it. I've shown him countries where there are coronavirus outbreaks, yet they don't even have 5G infrastructure. He thinks they have it but just not available to the general population.

    People like that, you can't even use logic/facts. They believe what they want to believe.

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled".

  • Raj09 on 20/05/2020 - 21:57

    Show the anti vaxxers a child with polio or small pox. The difference between a vaccine and nothing is life and death. Also if they still are not convinced then let them be. Let the law of nature take its course.

  • Eeples on 21/05/2020 - 00:42

    Your mother and other adults at the workplace and people in general have the responsibility to learn about stuff.

    Including how to stay healthy.

    Perhaps you could suggest your mother talk to her doctor. And tell her work colleagues simply “my doctor thought it would be a good idea to get a flu shot”.

    If it was me, and if I was challenged I would say that but emphasise the words “my doctor”.

  • Laninchris on 21/05/2020 - 01:44

    I was scrolling through Lamebook the other day and saw this post. I liked it so much I screenshot it to show any anti-vaxxers that I might come across…
    http://www.lamebook.com/science-a-day/
    Seems pretty appropriate to your question- I’d show your Mum and the other ladies at her work- a good way to show them that just because information/figures etc can be presented a certain way, doesn’t mean that it’s the whole truth 👍🏼

    • [Deactivated] on 21/05/2020 - 09:10

      If that's the chemical composition of an apple then I can go out and buy those chemicals and mix them together to make myself an apple can I?

    • PurchaseAnxiety on 21/05/2020 - 11:29

      Yeah it seems to be the logic of 'if it sounds too science-y, it's bad'. I used to work with an anti-vaxxer who'd talk about how no one knew what was actually in vaccinations. He'd say this as he'd chow down on a white bread roll full of processed meat. He was also anti-government, but guess where we worked?

      He convinced me that some people just want to get angry about something, be against something, be a part of a alternative and contrarian crowd. Unfortunately social media has given rise to a lot of stupid movements, which have provided vessels for people to jump on board and get their anti-establishment fix. Who knows whether they truly believe it or not.

      If you've seen the Netflix documentary 'Behind the Curve', there are clearly many flat earthers who don't believe their own BS, they just enjoy being part of the movement.

  • [Deactivated] on 21/05/2020 - 08:58
    +1

    So, what do the pro-vaxxers do when there's no vaccine available for the current virus doing the rounds?

    • LFO on 21/05/2020 - 18:57

      So,

      Flu shot, Tetanus top up, vitamins, supplements, hormones, the list in never-ending.

      Acupuncture has needles too.

      Pointy subject, by the way.

      :-p

  • [Deactivated] on 21/05/2020 - 09:08
    +1

    In life, you've always got two choices. A right choice, or a wrong choice… I find the right choice is naturally found to be the opposite of whatever the angry mob is trying push down people's throats with their peer pressure and intimidation…

  • [Deactivated] on 24/05/2020 - 22:21

    Three pages of Karen 'course of dis variety and no doubt no music.

    Counter-Karen
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_O smart and could not be sweeter.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGQMiAS89yE That's a great remix, enjoy

  • hasher22 on 31/05/2020 - 20:35

    My mother is the same, she's in her 50's and she is EASILY persuaded by anything that looks like a news article online or people send it to her.

    One minute she's an anti-vaxxer next minute she isn't.

    2 nights ago she yelled out in the living room: "GOOD ON YOU TRUMP!" and I couldn't confront her on what trump did because I was at a work meeting and the people in the meeting, one person said: "did someone yell out good on you trump?" and I didn't say anything as it could have been from anyone.

    The ironic thing, these kind of people will not believe family members but believe bogus websites and information sent to them. They could get sent that pineapples grow on trees with photoshopped pictures of pineapples on trees and if you tell them otherwise, they would not believe you.

    My suggestion is that you tell your mother to not believe everything online or sent to you, do you own research but in saying that, they will never do it because the technological processes they have to go through is too much for them and they rather get spoon fed by their peers around them or news feed from social media.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join