Unable to Get a Refund from Harvey Norman (Resolved)

czz on 11/03/2020 - 12:04
Last edited 17/03/2020 - 11:55

Update 17/03/2020 Refund offered

Hi guys,
I'm stuck with a camera I can't use. Where to go with this issue in getting a refund?

I purchased a Lenovo VR180 camera from Harvey Norman. https://www.harveynorman.com.au/lenovo-mirage-camera-with-da…

The main reason I got this camera was the feature to live stream 180 degree footage to YouTube. But unfortunately this is not working. It runs on a Google app called VR180 and when you try to live stream, the app crashes.

I tried to refund the camera to HM but they are unable to get an authorised fault claim from Lenovo, as they're saying their camera hardware is working fine. HN advise its out of their hands and I have to speak to Google to resolve the app issue with live stream. Why don't Lenovo speak to Google and fix it.

Why is HN making it so difficult to refund me for a faulty product. And I have to go through all these hoops. Will be the last time I shop at HM. ;/

Much help is appreciated,
Thanks,
Cz

A complaint letter I wrote to Harvey Norman as below if anyone else needs it as a reference when contacting them.

https://www.harveynorman.com.au/contact-us

Madam/Sir,

On xxx, I purchased Lenovo Mirage VR180 Camera from Harvey Norman - QVH Melbourne.

The Lenovo Mirage VR180 Camera is unable to Live Stream to YouTube. I followed the instructions provided in the manual. To set up the Live Stream to Youtube. An App needs to be installed on your personal phone and paired with the camera. When you try to Live Stream to Youtube. The App just crashes and doesn't work. I tried to get it working on multiple phone devices but still not working.

Link for the camera:
https://www.harveynorman.com.au/lenovo-mirage-camera-with-da…

Quote from camera product:
"Lifelike Livestreaming
Combining a 180-degree field of view and the immersive nature of stereoscopic 3D, the Lenovo Mirage Camera allows you to stream 3-dimensional videos to online streaming platforms real-time in either 1080p, 1440p, or 4K resolution (depending on your WiFi bandwidth)."

I understand that under the Australian Consumer Law, when I buy products and services they come with automatic guarantees that they will work and do what I asked for.
-Products will match description or sample
-Products will be fit for purpose

I can choose a refund or exchange if an item has a major problem.
This is when the item:
-has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying the item if they had known about it
-is significantly different from the sample or description
-doesn’t do what we said it would, or what you asked for and can’t be easily fixed.

I have photographs of the faulty product and I would like a refund asap.

If I do not hear from you within 5 working days, I will lodge a formal complaint with Consumer Affairs Victoria and/or report my issue to the ACCC.

You can contact me about this complaint via email at xxx or call me on xxx during business hours.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

Regards
xxx

Electrical & Electronics

Related Stores

Harvey Norman
Harvey Norman

Comments

  • canyoudoitcheaper on 11/03/2020 - 12:11
    +12

    The product isn’t technically faulty. It’s just that the camera doesn’t support the app you want to use it with.

    • FloatingPoint on 11/03/2020 - 12:25
      +3

      https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees…

      Products must:
      match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising

      Depends if the product claims it can do a live stream to YouTube.

      • czz on 11/03/2020 - 12:28

        Thanks might have to do this.

      • HighAndDry on 11/03/2020 - 14:49
        +1

        OP is using it with a third party app, or with a third party platform (YouTube) as far as I can tell.

        I'm not sure warranties extend to how interoperable the product is with third party services outside the control of the manufacturer.

        • FloatingPoint on 11/03/2020 - 16:43
          +1

          If the description of product claimed it can do something but turned out it can't then it's a valid reason to refund.
          3rd party apps or not it's irrelevant.

          • HighAndDry on 11/03/2020 - 16:49
            +1

            @FloatingPoint: It increases the possibility that it's not the product that's the issue.

            For example, what if it's just a case of OP's phone processor not being powerful enough to run the app and render the video stream in real time?

            Or if Google changed the app that messed up interoperability with the camera, but the claims were accurate when the product released/marketed?

            • FloatingPoint on 11/03/2020 - 16:57
              +2

              @HighAndDry: Doesn't matter.
              If there are no minimum hardware requirement specified then it's not up to the customer to care about it.

              • cloudy on 11/03/2020 - 23:34

                @FloatingPoint: True, but one should be sensible about this. You don’t want manufacturers putting silly specifications because costumers are putting in silly return requests. Ie, should they start putting in versions of YouTube it’s compatible with, or level or internet speed and ping and jitter.

                This will ultimately complicate things beyond usefulness and cause even more consumer confusion and frustration.

                • FloatingPoint on 12/03/2020 - 02:28
                  +1

                  @cloudy: Unfortunately these ifs and buts will only lead to toothless law. Manufacturers and retailers will eventually use these as loophole to deny responsibility on their faulty products.

                  • cloudy on 12/03/2020 - 10:33

                    @FloatingPoint: Balance is always the key, you’d be a lawyers picnic.

                    • FloatingPoint on 12/03/2020 - 13:38

                      @cloudy: Look what happened if you purchased a brand new car than turn out to be a lemon.
                      Balance only exist in Utopia.

                      • cloudy on 12/03/2020 - 13:46

                        @FloatingPoint:

                        Look what happened if you purchased a brand new car than turn out to be a lemon.

                        what??? what car do I have?

    • czz on 11/03/2020 - 12:27

      Take live-streaming to the next level

      The Mirage Camera lets you livestream any video, from weddings and live concerts to your late-night YouTube vlog. Livestreaming with the Mirage Camera fuses the immersiveness of stereoscopic 3D with a 180-degree field of view. And you can stream these live moments in either 4K, 1440p, or 1080p (depending on your WIFI bandwidth).

      https://www.lenovo.com/au/en/virtual-reality-and-smart-devic…

      • Hybroid on 11/03/2020 - 12:32

        Have you tried it on another computer? Sounds like your computer issue rather than the hardware or software.

        • czz on 11/03/2020 - 12:38

          The camera uses a phone app, called vr180. I tried on a few phone devices but no luck.

          • Hybroid on 11/03/2020 - 13:14
            +8

            @czz: Sounds like you may be right, quite a few complaints on the app reviews and both Lenovo and Yi have actually discontinued the cameras. You'll need to argue it's not fit for purpose.

            • HighAndDry on 11/03/2020 - 16:52
              -4

              @Hybroid: Only matters if OP made that specific purpose known to HN when buying - otherwise the camera still works perfectly fine as a stereoscopic camera.

              And take into account the ACL considers price, and the camera is now retailing for about a third of its price on release, precisely because it's being discontinued.

              You wouldn't be able to return a PS3 you bought today because it didn't play games at the highest resolutions - which it absolutely did on release.

              • Hybroid on 11/03/2020 - 17:03
                +1

                @HighAndDry: I'm not sure the examples are comparable there. If I bought a brand new PS3 today (assume) and it wasn't able to play any games because the software doesn't work anymore then absolutely there's a case to say it's not fit for purpose and doesn't do what it was meant to do. No one's claiming it can't do 4K. The camera is literally marketed for VR180 which was yet another failed Google experiment hence the price crash.

                Moreover, if you bought an SLR camera and the video function didn't export for some reason but taking regular photos did fine, would you still suggest it 'still works'?

                What might matter is if they bought it this week or have had it for a year and now realise no longer works. There's also an argument if they're using a compatible smartphone too.

            • czz on 11/03/2020 - 17:14

              @Hybroid: Hmmm waiting for Lenovo to do a recall and be pulling these off the shelves.

  • OzCheapo on 11/03/2020 - 12:16
    +7

    Gerry Harvey is notorious for declining refunds. It's why I shop online or with JB Hifi and Officeworks.

    From experience, Officeworks has excellent customer service so they're generally my go-to solution. Try them for electronics/office supplies in the future. Sorry to hear about the bad experience

    • Bargain80 on 11/03/2020 - 12:55
      +3

      Give Gerry a break. That man just lost $150M overnight.

      • Yummy on 11/03/2020 - 17:36
        +2

        Oh what a delicious news.

        • Bargain80 on 11/03/2020 - 17:37

          unfortunately that is just small change for him.
          and he keep the shares, the price will rebound eventually.

          • Yummy on 12/03/2020 - 17:36

            @Bargain80: Nah, pretty sure he is hurting. Stingy always worries for losing a 5 cents. 150M can buys him 150 houses.

    • czz on 11/03/2020 - 17:21

      I agree, I bought a laptop at OW, complained about fan noise. They offered a refund or swapped over on the spot. Why can they do this? And HN can't?

      You buy, and you learn:)

  • farque on 11/03/2020 - 12:30
    +2

    Log a complaint here under store experience. Goes to Head office (GM etc) and direct to the franchisee.

    https://www.harveynorman.com.au/contact-us

    • czz on 11/03/2020 - 12:39

      Done, cheers

  • MS Paint on 11/03/2020 - 12:40

    HM

    What is this HM you keep referring to?

    • czz on 11/03/2020 - 12:43

      Whoops HN* Harvey norman

    • AdosHouse on 11/03/2020 - 18:08
      +5

      His/Her Majesty, aka, Gerry Harvey.

  • bobbieb on 11/03/2020 - 12:56

    The app that you mention is crashing… Do you mean an android app running on a phone, rather than on the camera?

    Unfortunately, where Android devices and apps are involved, I can understand how Lenovo may not wanna step up. The application is written and published by Google themselves, so you're faced with trying to somehow prove that it's the camera, and not an issue with your phone and/or the application themselves.

    You didn't mention what phone you are using. Have you done the obligatory google to see if anyone else using the same model of phone has had trouble with the app?

    • Mechz on 11/03/2020 - 13:15

      They said they tried 4 different phones so it's unlikely a phone issue.

      • HighAndDry on 11/03/2020 - 16:56

        Possibly all cheap(er) underpowered phones.

    • czz on 11/03/2020 - 17:55

      On Google play store, it says my phone is compatible with the app. I've tested on Samsung S10, S7. It's not a compatibility issue as I'm able to download the app, it would of said so and be greyed out.

      I understand it's a software related issue from another company. They should still be responsible in liasing the problem via each other Lenovo and Google. And if it is still unresolved. The customer should not be burdened (which I am atm). If anything HN should be my agent in resolving this problem and not hand balling it to the customer to fix it yourself.

      • bobbieb on 11/03/2020 - 18:20

        Alas, you're talking about android phones.

        The software may have been functional on your phones at some point, but it's not uncommon for phone system updates to break apps - even google's own apps.

  • willaston on 11/03/2020 - 13:25
    +3

    Its a significant feature of the camera, very prominent in their advertising. Under Consumer Law, if the product doesn't do what its advertised to do, then you are entitled to a refund. Even if the product relies on third party software, then the consumer still has the right to expect that it will function using that third party software. Give HN time to respond through the online system, but if you don't get any joy within a reasonable time frame, lodge a complaint through Consumer Affairs in your state. It doesn't take much effort to do it online, and in my experience usually ends in a good result.

  • serpserpserp on 11/03/2020 - 13:50
    +2

    Good luck OP I think you deserve a refund.

    But next time make sure you read the reviews of products before you buy!

  • Ryanek on 11/03/2020 - 13:58

    Software issue. I hardly see why this is Lenovo's fault. Have you done all firmware/software updates?

  • Tech5 on 11/03/2020 - 15:07
    +1

    For once, I agree that OP should receive a refund. Print off the page from ACCC that says that the product must match description, take it into HN and ask for a refund again. Bring in a copy of multiple other complaints about the software, to prove it is not user error.

    It is their job for the refund, and they cannot push to Lenovo. If they say no, say you will submit a complaint to the ombudsman and go from there.

    Screenshot and print the lenovo page while you are at it, so it doesn't dissapear

    • hikaru78 on 11/03/2020 - 15:28

      which ombudsman do you think has authority on this out of curiosity?

      Your argument is a breach of ACL as it is unfit for purpose. or potentially under misleading and deceptive provisions but last I checked there isn't some retail ombudsmen that looks after stuff like this

      • Hithere on 11/03/2020 - 16:04
        +1

        I'd have thought that under ACL the Office/Department of Fair Trading would have been the most suitable authority to lodge a complaint through.

        Fair Trading is state based while ACCC is nation wide based.

      • Tech5 on 11/03/2020 - 17:04

        ACCC and NCAT was what I was referring to, sorry

        • hikaru78 on 11/03/2020 - 17:25

          FWIW ACCC will not deal with single cases your best option is to contact fair trading in your state.

          Bearing in mind that fair trading cannot make a business do anything but its normally enough to get a business to play by the rules they are all bark and no bite.

          The next step is the relevant administration tribunal for your state.

          Walking into Harvey Norman and threatening them with an ombudsman would only achieve in amusing the staff

          • Tech5 on 11/03/2020 - 21:43

            @hikaru78: NCAT are able to make enforceable rulings afaik. Went to the tribunal hearing once for a 1yr old Panasonic washing machine they were refusing to fix under warranty. Was awarded a new one

            • hikaru78 on 11/03/2020 - 22:14

              @Tech5: Ncat is an administrative tribunal so yes then can put an order in. Fair trading can bother the business but that's about it

  • Mozzmanau on 11/03/2020 - 15:34
    +1

    I learnt a very big lesson about a year ago. NEVER EVER buy from Harvey Norman. Their after sales service is atrocious. I have spent over$20,000 with them in the past and if I ever had problems they treated me like dirt.

    I now but from JB and actually get Street sales service.

    If it's not doing something that it says it will do them take the to vcat if you're in Victoria or the equivalent in your state.

  • Fysh on 11/03/2020 - 16:54
    +1

    Dear Manager,

    I hearby give 10 days notice to make the product fit for purpose or refund or I will be persuing to [insert state consumer affairs]

    The item is not fit for purpose because it does not work without software x as described in its product description.

    I am willing to forward an example of a video of it doing X

    Kind Regards,

    Send by registered post keep proof.

  • chumlee on 11/03/2020 - 22:16

    You think Gerry became a billionaire by giving refunds

    • Mozzmanau on 13/03/2020 - 11:03

      Gerry made money by selling franchises, JB hi-fi are one of the only retailers still making money because they offer customer service and….. Refunds.

  • OzHunterNSW on 12/03/2020 - 09:54
    +1

    It is Google you need to speak with

  • czz on 12/03/2020 - 11:46

    Thanks guys, I've reached out to many agencies in resolving the matter. Let's see how it goes! ;)

  • TransportPosters on 15/03/2020 - 23:16

    Others have said that Harvey Norman are terrible with refunds, support, etc. I've had two printers go bad on me and each time they were taken and replaced for free.

    Have you tried contacting their head office and explaining the issue, not just talking to the store people? After a lot of static and refusal from store people at Harris Scarfe (not HN, I know), I talked to head office about a faulty product and explained the issues in great detail, and head office made them refund me.

  • BewareOfThe Dog on 16/03/2020 - 13:52

    HN need the authority from Lenovo so they can return it to Synnex (Lenovo's Distributor). If you have such authority, than you shouldn't have an issue. Without that the unit is classed as second hand.

    Otherwise, come up with a different error ie intermittent failure, and goto a different store if you have one nearby. A different store maybe easier to deal with.
    If you write a letter/email to Head Office, this will be referred back to the franchisee at the store, however this may put more pressure on them to deal with the rep, to obtain a return.
    Also contact Fair Trading in your relevant state, and maybe exercise your rights under ACL?

    Best of luck with your return.

  • czz on 17/03/2020 - 11:54

    Hooooray! Thank you for all the support OZB! HN is able to provide a refund now.
    HN contacted Lenovo and spoke with their management team and provided the authorised return claim. They must have copied and paste my letter and forwarded to them, lol.

    A complaint letter I wrote to Harvey Norman as below if anyone else needs it as a reference when contacting them.

    https://www.harveynorman.com.au/contact-us

    Madam/Sir,

    On xxx, I purchased Lenovo Mirage VR180 Camera from Harvey Norman - QVH Melbourne.

    The Lenovo Mirage VR180 Camera is unable to Live Stream to YouTube. I followed the instructions provided in the manual. To set up the Live Stream to Youtube. An App needs to be installed on your personal phone and paired with the camera. When you try to Live Stream to Youtube. The App just crashes and doesn't work. I tried to get it working on multiple phone devices but still not working.

    Link for the camera:
    https://www.harveynorman.com.au/lenovo-mirage-camera-with-da…

    Quote from camera product:
    "Lifelike Livestreaming
    Combining a 180-degree field of view and the immersive nature of stereoscopic 3D, the Lenovo Mirage Camera allows you to stream 3-dimensional videos to online streaming platforms real-time in either 1080p, 1440p, or 4K resolution (depending on your WiFi bandwidth)."

    I understand that under the Australian Consumer Law, when I buy products and services they come with automatic guarantees that they will work and do what I asked for.
    -Products will match description or sample
    -Products will be fit for purpose

    I can choose a refund or exchange if an item has a major problem.
    This is when the item:
    -has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying the item if they had known about it
    -is significantly different from the sample or description
    -doesn’t do what we said it would, or what you asked for and can’t be easily fixed.

    I have photographs of the faulty product and I would like a refund asap.

    If I do not hear from you within 5 working days, I will lodge a formal complaint with Consumer Affairs Victoria and/or report my issue to the ACCC.

    You can contact me about this complaint via email at xxx or call me on xxx during business hours.

    Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

    Regards
    xxx

    • TransportPosters on 17/03/2020 - 22:22

      The kisses at the end were a nice touch. No wonder they approved. :)

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