Underpayment in a factory help...

Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 12:45
Last edited 11/11/2019 - 13:36

I got offered work at a local factory for $15 an hour. I knew this was under the award, but accepted on account it would be temporary. After I got there, I found out all the workers were being paid $15 an hour. Some for three years and at lower rates like $10 an hour. They were not paid Super from what they told me. This also included one worker that acts as a Office manager, does taxes and carpet cutting etc.

While the job was cruisey, I couldn't work there knowing illegal things were happening, so quit today. Last week the owner also told me to "move furniture". This included a couple of suitcases and bags that I did not know the contents of. I may just be paranoid, but this was kind of the last straw… Apparently there are networks of people who do this kind of trafficking! I just thought to warn other people to be careful.

Education & Work

Comments

  • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 13:05
    +3

    OP - you have told us nothing, apart from you knowingly worked for a company that underpaid their workers……Hold the front page.

    • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:06

      actually, only found out last week. I was the only one being underpaid till then.

      • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 13:10
        +1

        Are you going to do something to help others? ie. report them? or just have a whinge?

        EDIT - also , Which one (re: time)? is it last week or three years?

        • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:14

          yeah well… if I report them, two people could lose whatever income they have and the owner will be probably be able to find out it was me.

          • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 13:18
            +2

            @Cave Fire: And yet you posted on Ozbargain……….go figure

            • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:26

              @oscargamer: Yup, just hoping that anyone else who gets offered these cash jobs investigates it before committing. The pay aside, there were so many other illegal/weird things that happened.

              • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 13:44

                @Cave Fire: Cash jobs?

                So you owe the ATO money do you? because of undeclared income (that you will be declaring at the end of the tax year of course?)

                • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:47
                  -3

                  @oscargamer: I don't know what's your problem, but yeah there's no tax until I earn over >38k from what I know.

                  • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 13:48

                    @Cave Fire: My problem is with both dodgy employers and also employees who find issues and do nothing ….

                    https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Individual-income-tax-rates/

                    • AbsX on 11/11/2019 - 22:42
                      +1

                      @oscargamer: Very easy for you to bash employees that get exploited.

                      Sometimes an underpaid cash job is better then no job and the OP feared losing his job more than his morale compass to dob the employer in.

                      Question now for OP, now that you quit, what do you have to lose from dobbing the employer in? Is burning this bridge going to hurt you even after you quit?

                  • ssquid on 11/11/2019 - 16:09
                    +1

                    @Cave Fire: 38K is more than double the current tax-free threshold, please explain.

                • Cheapskate Paul on 11/11/2019 - 20:17

                  @oscargamer: That's the way, blame the victim!

        • Donaldhump on 11/11/2019 - 13:14
          +2

          Confusing
          but my take
          he started X months ago
          he found out last week ("after he when he got there") that others underpaid, until then thought they were only one
          3 years is the length some of the workers have worked there.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/11/2019 - 13:16
    -2

    "Last week the owner also told me to "move furniture". "

    You could have waited until it was "swim with the fishes".

  • Hardlyworkin on 11/11/2019 - 13:28

    In between smoking some of the GC's finest; make an anonymous report; https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/how-we-help-you…

    • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:29
      -2

      completely sober for three years, someone MAY have already made a report.

      • Caped Baldy on 11/11/2019 - 13:37
        +2

        FFS. What's the point of posting it on ozb?
        Do you only care about yourself and want sympathy?

        • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:41
          -1

          Well, it was more to show that this is still happening. It is not so much about the money but more like the person who agrees to this stuff is heading to a "lawless" region.

          • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 13:45

            @Cave Fire: So YOU then?

            • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:48
              -1

              @oscargamer: Gee, maybe the hundreds if not thousands of other people that are still undergoing this….?

              • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 13:49
                +3

                @Cave Fire: Only you have the name of your ex-employer.

                YOU have the ability to do something. Or PM me their name and i'll do it for you.

                • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 13:51
                  -4

                  @oscargamer: Someone may have already made a report.

                  • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 14:03

                    @Cave Fire: Weak. Very weak.

                    • oscargamer on 11/11/2019 - 14:05
                      +1

                      @Ughhh: Interesting. OP is a classic case of both. I wonder if he/she would cross the road to avoid helping an injured person "because someone else might have rung an ambulance"

                    • Zachary on 12/11/2019 - 14:15

                      @Ughhh: Hahaha, I'm also kinda like that too - if I saw a car crash accident and there were already people at the scenes with their phones out, I assume they've already called the ambulance and cops and I just go one about my own business, ignoring the scene unless the scene somehow peaks my curiosity in any shape or form, in which case I stay to check it out…..but still won't report on the assumption that one other person in the scene must have already done it anyways.

                  • Yummy on 11/11/2019 - 15:16
                    +3

                    @Cave Fire: Someone may have already made a report.

                    May I report this post to mod for being stupid?

      • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 22:04

        it seems that sarcasm and subtlety don't travel to well on the internet…

  • fantombloo on 11/11/2019 - 13:33
    +4

    Maintaining secrecy is how employers / leaders / etc. keep their groups subdued - by not communicating openly the members / subjugates of such groups are effectively pitted against each other. "How much does he get paid?" "I wonder if he hates the regime too but won't speak up?"

    The best thing that you can do at your workplace is be frank and open about your remuneration with your peers. That may uncover issues, structural or individual.

    • brad1-8tsi on 11/11/2019 - 14:08

      Such secrecy over rates of pay. It's ridiculous.

      I work in government. We are all on a table of rates for the various grades. Colleagues get so pissed off when you mention their pay rate.

      I asked our CEO if he thought he was worth his $450k pay packet and he questioned how I knew his salary. "It's in the annual report mate."

      • canyoudoitcheaper on 11/11/2019 - 18:39

        Colleagues get so pissed off when you mention their pay rate

        I’ve not had this during my time in the public service. Unless you’re going up to the admin clerk and asking if they think they’re worth their $50k pay packet…

        • brad1-8tsi on 12/11/2019 - 07:42

          nah, our pay clerks are a few hundred km away.

          Just a simple "annual increment is in the pay this week. You're on the same grade as me. How are you going to spend that $14?"

  • HighAndDry on 11/11/2019 - 13:52
    -6

    This will be completely unpopular, but a lot of businesses aren't viable paying award rates, and there's no guarantee that an underpaying job will be replaced with a legally paying job - in a lot of cases, it just means one less job.

    I wonder if anyone's asked people working these jobs whether they'd prefer to have no job instead of an underpaying one.

    • Hardlyworkin on 11/11/2019 - 14:20
      +2

      I wonder if anyone asked a slave if they prefer not be be a slave as at least they get fed each day.

      • HighAndDry on 11/11/2019 - 14:53

        Username checks out?

        I wonder if anyone asked a slave if they prefer not be be a slave as at least they get fed each day.

        If you're so sure of their answer, why not ask?

    • JimmyF on 11/11/2019 - 14:59
      -1

      I wonder if anyone's asked people working these jobs whether they'd prefer to have no job instead of an under the table cash job while collecting centerlink payments on the side.

      Corrected that for you

      • crentist on 11/11/2019 - 16:19
        +1

        True, the businesses are running a massive scam on their employees and the public here.

        Instead of paying a living wage to their employees and generating more income tax for the economy, they choose to line their pockets by paying people $10 an hour for years, and expect taxpayers to make up the shortfall.

        • JimmyF on 11/11/2019 - 16:48

          I think you find it goes both ways, the employees are getting cash in hand jobs while collecting magic money from the gov, and the employer is getting cheap wages. Its a win win for everyone.

          The employees don't want super payments of 'taxes' paid, as that will flag them for review and the magic money disappears.

          Getting $600 cash in hand plus magic money, means they're laughing all the way to the bank, as thats like earning $50k on the books before taxes etc.

          • crentist on 11/11/2019 - 18:21

            @JimmyF: Sure, it can be a win-win for a willing employer and employee, but what if one side is unwilling? That's where the power balance suggests that responsibility for this tax fraud lies more with the employer who are generally less vulnerable than jobseekers.
            I'm sure it's much easier to find someone willing to accept underpayment, than to ask a potential employer to dodge taxes because you want to start a grift.

            Because you also have people like foreign students and backpackers, widely exploited as a cheap source of labour, and illegible for any kind of magic money. Many would be better off on the minimum wage because they aren't laughing all the way to the bank, they are just exploited and poor. I've had friends who worked to survive on $10/hour because some local restaurants figured that's what they could get away with paying temporary workers.

            You could say it's better for the foreign students who can at least get that $10, but it kinda just depresses the entire market. Suddenly $10 is the norm for everyone, but locals are able to kick the scam onto the taxpayer. But if everyone was legit, locals would feel it, and would look for higher wages elsewhere, eg even bloody McDonalds pays over minimum wage.

            • peteru on 13/11/2019 - 04:38

              @crentist:

              You could say it's better for the foreign students who can at least get that $10

              It isn't. They are only legally allowed to work a limited number of hours each fortnight and if those hours don't generate enough cash they are screwed. Not only do they risk having their visa cancelled if caught, but their ability to study is greatly diminished by long work hours and poor treatment by employers.

        • HighAndDry on 11/11/2019 - 17:44
          -1

          The alternative is that the job doesn't exist and the employee now has no job and draws more Centrelink money.

          • crentist on 11/11/2019 - 18:06
            +2

            @HighAndDry: They draw the same amount of centrelink money anyway if they show no income.

            And maybe those jobs shouldn't exist if they are being created by the wrong employers. Normalising this further depresses wages in general, increases tax fraud, creates a disincentive for employees to seek higher legitimate incomes, and removes pressure from these employers to correct their behaviour if they are able to.

            It also punishes good employers who want to pay legitimate wages, because they are now at a competitive disadvantage absolutely irregardless of wage affordability.
            Get rid of the bad employers, don't punish the good ones.

            • HighAndDry on 11/11/2019 - 18:48

              @crentist:

              They draw the same amount of centrelink money anyway if they show no income.

              I was going to mention this - this is true, but the one drawing extra income is being more productive, likely to spend more and contributing more to the economy.

              • crentist on 11/11/2019 - 21:34

                @HighAndDry: I dunno about that. The one relying on centrelink has to spend every cent of it to survive without a job, and they'd be barely scraping by. Presumably they would be looking for work to get out of such a crappy situation.

                The one who has a job might be spending more, but a particular individual simply having money doesn't mean there is more economic benefit. The extra income they get is good for them (and their immediate surroundings), but that's money that was paid to their employer, which has now remained disproportionately in the employers pockets. Who may now be getting further tax benefits due to their higher income, while enjoying a competitive advantage over other businesses who do the right thing and pay workers properly.
                Which means that competitors will suffer, go out of business, and/or start underpaying their own workers to continue the cycle.

                Which doesn't create any new jobs for the first poor schmuck living entirely on centrelink. It reduces the number of employers and jobs around, and turns whatever's left into an ever more illegal race to the bottom for all jobseekers and business.

                So that second worker might be spending a little more, but their employer is a bigger drain on other jobseekers and businesses.
                And if the employer isn't padding their own pockets and actually needs to underpay workers over the long term, then their business or industry might simply be unviable, or overrun by illegal practices.

    • crentist on 11/11/2019 - 16:02
      +3

      The point of having a minimum wage is to prevent businesses from exploiting workers, not the other way around. Especially when the owners are far from struggle street themselves.

      Normalising worker underpayment with the excuse that an underpaying job is better than none, just normalises illegally low wages period. It then allows viable, thriving businesses to pad the pockets of their owners off the unjustified exploitation of their workers.

      Of course some businesses struggle, and worker expenses can be high. But the fact that this continues to be seen across certain industries, and in long term situations such as OPs coworkers being underpaid for years, suggests that it doesn't only happen in struggling businesses with owners trying their hardest to do right for their workers.
      Instead, with the state of things, you're just kinda excusing the treatment of employees as some kind of servant class whenever businesses can get away with it.

      • HighAndDry on 11/11/2019 - 17:46

        the excuse that an underpaying job is better than none

        This seems more like incontrovertible truth than an excuse.

        • crentist on 11/11/2019 - 17:53

          You missed the context of this phrase. Merivale can afford to pay it's employees properly, so the excuse doesn't apply at all. Those jobs already exist and would continue to.

          It's not to be taken as a literal statement that stands up on it's own. If it were, you could just as easily refuse to pay a tradesman an agreed amount after a job, because $25 is better than nothing. Incontrovertible truth though that may be.

          • HighAndDry on 11/11/2019 - 18:49

            @crentist:

            If it were, you could just as easily refuse to pay a tradesman an agreed amount after a job

            This isn't happening. OP and others there agreed to their rate of pay.

    • bobbified on 12/11/2019 - 11:08
      +1

      ^ As illegal as it is, that's just reality. No one argues when they go into a shop and pays cheaper prices (that come as a result of less operating expenses).

      Also, some people just can't get a proper paying job or they're not allowed to. So they accept what they can get.

    • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 21:19

      If the business model is based on breaking the law, then there is no business.

  • Ughhh on 11/11/2019 - 13:59
    +1

    This thread is kinda pointless. It's like letting people know that there are fake Gucci bags on the internet.

    I got offered work at a local factory for $15 an hour. I knew this was under the award, but accepted on account it would be temporary

    Thats the problem, you knew about it, but accepted anyway. You want to whinge, but don't want to report them in fear of losing your/colleagues jobs. The employers know this, hence the cycle continues.

    • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 14:02
      -2

      I was okay with $15 for my own reasons… but yeah, after everything that happened I felt my safety was threatened. That's why I posted because other people may get offered this work or might know someone who does.

      • brad1-8tsi on 11/11/2019 - 14:11

        You can report anonymously. Report it to the relevant Union (The I Don't Move Suitcases Union?) and let them be the heroes. You don't have to be a member. Turn off caller ID and don't give your details or any background info. Just like on OzBargain "calling for a friend"

      • robbyjones on 11/11/2019 - 20:25
        +2

        What good is a warning if you haven't named your employer? It's like saying there's a hole in a road, careful you don't ruin your car driving down it. Pointless post.

      • bobbified on 12/11/2019 - 11:13

        ….I felt my safety was threatened

        What did they do to make you feel threatened?

        • Cave Fire on 12/11/2019 - 11:15

          bad whs standards

          • Cave Fire on 12/11/2019 - 14:47

            @Cave Fire: day one: found a tiny black * sex toy * and aphrodisiac in the toilet cupboard
            day eight: meth pipe and what looks like left over ice while emptying out a bin

            • ssquid on 12/11/2019 - 15:53

              @Cave Fire:

              day one: found a tiny black * sex toy *

              It was tiny but you still felt threatened?

              • Cave Fire on 12/11/2019 - 16:06

                @ssquid: yeah well average sized… still suss, you are going to look at your boss differently after that.

  • onetwothreefour on 11/11/2019 - 15:19
    +6

    So you didn't report them while you were working there because you needed the money. Now that you've left you feel it's your moral duty to warn the people of OzBargain to be careful of these types of businesses but you still don't want to report them because someone may have already reported them?

  • tryagain on 11/11/2019 - 15:30
    +3

    Most people paint these employers as taking advantage of poor unsuspecting victims, the reality is, is often the "employees" are actually receiving unemployment benefits or a disability support pension so are happy to work for under the table cash in hand, getting $15/hr sounds terrible but the reality is actually netting over 1K a week.

    Often the poor employees are just as bad as the employers and that's the reason they stay quiet.

    • JimmyF on 11/11/2019 - 16:53

      getting $15/hr sounds terrible

      Its about $570-600 cash in hand a week, so thats about equal to earning $50k if they had to paid taxes/super.

      are actually receiving unemployment benefits or a disability support pension

      or workers comp :)

    • Cave Fire on 11/11/2019 - 22:03

      yeah it's more like 27k with tax of 2k.

      • tryagain on 12/11/2019 - 00:35

        Basing this of DSP pension being $466 a week tax-free and $15/hr for a 38hr week is $570 again this is cash so tax-free. That equates to netting over $1000 ($1036) like I mentioned.

    • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 18:08

      So two wrong make a right?

      • tryagain on 14/11/2019 - 19:52

        Nope, they are both wrong, just pointing out that often (but not always) the worker is in cahoots with the employer, not an innocent victim.

        • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 20:10

          With that kind of statement all you end up doing is trying to justify why it’s ok for the worker to be ripped off.

          • whooah1979 on 14/11/2019 - 20:34

            @Vote for Pedro:

            Some for three years and at lower rates like $10 an hour. They were not paid Super from what they told me.

            These workers are either staying in Australia unlawfully or they’re legal migrants receiving government benefits while under reporting their income.

          • tryagain on 14/11/2019 - 20:57

            @Vote for Pedro: I can't see where what I have said in any way justifies a business underpaying it's staff.

            • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 21:03

              @tryagain: Basically what you’re doing is victim blaming. They deserved it because they are probably stealing.

              You’ve probably heard it used in other more serious scenarios. It’s a tactic used to shift blame/focus from the perpetrator to the victim.

              • tryagain on 14/11/2019 - 21:11

                @Vote for Pedro: I have known of people looking for cash work so they can keep getting their government allowance and offer to work for a cheaper rate, these people aren't "victims" they are co-conspirators

                • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 21:17

                  @tryagain: Any employer not paying in accordance with the award is breaking the law. All other comments you make simply try to shift the focus away from that fact. You’re comments distract and serve to defend the company breaking the law.

                  • whooah1979 on 14/11/2019 - 21:23

                    @Vote for Pedro: The employer will be dealt with when OP reports them to the authorities. All parties will then have the opportunity to come clean.

                    • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 21:28

                      @whooah1979: Again with the victim blaming. All we can see in OPs post is the pay rate which we all know to be under minimum wage. The rest is basically a deflection to, at best, defend the employer and at worst, take a cheap shot at migrants/foreigners.

                      • whooah1979 on 14/11/2019 - 21:38

                        @Vote for Pedro: There is no need to defend anyone. The employer should get a fine and be forced to pay their workers their entitlements. The workers that are found to be cheating should be dealt with in accordance with the law.

                  • tryagain on 14/11/2019 - 21:34

                    @Vote for Pedro: BS, I haven't once said it's OK for an employer to underpay an employee, the reason they often get away with it though is that the employees happily work for less cash so they can rort the system. It's just looking at the situation as a whole, it's very different to say victim blaming in a sexual assault.

                    • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 21:40

                      @tryagain: This is what you’re saying:

                      She got sexually assaulted, that’s appalling! Though did you see what she was wearing? He’s a turd for doing what he did and should fo to jail. It’s sad, but maybe she shouldn’t wear that type outfit again.

                      • whooah1979 on 14/11/2019 - 21:41

                        @Vote for Pedro: What?

                        This is off topic.

                      • tryagain on 14/11/2019 - 21:56

                        @Vote for Pedro: The sexual assault victim never consented to the assualt, that is why the two aren't comparable.

                        • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 22:01

                          @tryagain: The victim here withdrew consent. What you were doing is bringing in a bunch of scenarios as to why the victim may have chosen to originally consent. All assumptions that deflect from the illegal payment.

                          • tryagain on 14/11/2019 - 22:05

                            @Vote for Pedro: My comments have never need directed at the OP but have been general in nature.

  • OzHunterNSW on 12/11/2019 - 10:51

    Just report them for WAGE THEFT

    • Cave Fire on 12/11/2019 - 10:51

      already did…

      • profar on 12/11/2019 - 11:29

        If you are doing illegal activities that could get you locked up in jail your employer is definitely ripping you off Bud for $15 a hr . Risk / Reward not worth it and I love everyone worried about a little income tax avoidance .

        That's the little picture .
        Correct move leaving :)

  • psdillon on 12/11/2019 - 13:15

    What did you mean by trafficking? Do you think there were people or drugs inside the suitcases that you had to move?

    • Zachary on 12/11/2019 - 14:11
      -1

      Probably human body parts for the black market or something….

    • Cave Fire on 12/11/2019 - 14:45

      seemed dodgy to me… like why it was so urgent and the suitcases could have fit in the lady's car.

      • whooah1979 on 13/11/2019 - 05:15

        May be the lady was in the suitcase and they wanted you to drive her.

  • whooah1979 on 13/11/2019 - 05:11

    Have a serious talk with the employer about them paying you the award rate or tell them that you’ll have to talk to fair work and the ATO.

  • Vote for Pedro on 14/11/2019 - 18:07

    Why not contact your union?

  • [Deactivated] on 17/11/2019 - 12:20

    Happens everywhere.

    I've known many people that get $8 an hour working at a local fruit shop in my suburb.

    It's pretty crappy, but a lot of people just take it because they can get more than you can on the dole.

    Just yesterday some compliance officers were sent out I believe. I was inside a shop and they were checking for illegal immigrants and so on, but you know to be honest, it's usually aussies working there. They mentioned they are doing the whole street. Won't mention where it is because they might be continuing on Monday.

    Saw some posts about people double dipping. Lol, I don't think that happens often. In fact it's pretty hard from what I've heard from some guys I recently employed. You need to go to the job provider all the time and randomly participate in some sort of presentation? I don't know the exact details but it sounds like hell. Some sort of compulsory visitation of interviews and so on. Not sure if it was bs though.

  • computer barn find on 22/11/2019 - 11:59

    If you want to report then why be anonymous, if the business gets found guilty you might get paid the extra money that you were supposed to.

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