Acceptable Debt Levels, What Are Your Limits?

Hi all,

I was discussing finances with an old school friend lately and discovered that he had 2 credit cards on the verge of being maxed out, a mortgage, car loan and a family on the way. Both he and his partner have reasonbly stable jobs and moderate incomes and are aged 27-29. After hearing this it really troubled me as to how they can manage these sort of debt levels and also be comfortable living with it over their heads.

I brought this up with a few other friends that are in a similar life position and the results were much the same, large debt levels across a number of loan facilities. I ended up asking them what would happen in the scenario of a recession or sudden job loss and almost all of them had no such contingency.

My personal view on debt is to avoid it wherever possible, I do have credit cards for reward points but they are all fee free and are paid off in full every month. I don't currently have a mortgage since I believe the current economic climate is too risky and current house prices overvalued.

After these discussions with friends I find myself an outcast with my financial position of being debt free, am I the odd one out in my age group (late 20's) or has large personal debt just the become the norm?

I'm interested to get everyones view on what debt facilities you have and the amount that is 'comfortable' for you to deal with.

Poll Options

  • 78
    Debt free
  • 6
    Credit card
  • 3
    Car
  • 1
    Car and credit card
  • 118
    Mortgage only
  • 8
    Mortgage, car and credit card
  • 6
    Mortgage and car
  • 20
    Mortgage and credit card

Comments

  • +6

    This person evidently doesn’t know much about compounding interest or finance generally.

    Suggest reading Barefoot Investor and Making Money Made Simple for a good understanding of why burdening yourself with this sort of debt for depreciating assets is a bad idea.

    Be careful with your mentality about assets being overvalued. There are tonnes of reasons to not get into the markets - but there is nothing more certain than a loss if you are storing money in bank getting rates less than inflation.

    • +2

      Any objective assessment of the property market leads to the fact that it's a massive assest bubble. While the share market has its woes it gives me flexibility and even profit in downturns, i'd rather have my money there than leverage 6-7 times my annual wage on the premise that it 'has to and always will go up'.

    • Barefoot Investor is a good plan at the individual level but it is not possible for all of us to follow it. The Government doesn't spend enough money into the monetary system to meet our savings desires so if I want to save $100 the only way I can do this is if someone else borrows $100.

  • +2

    Debt motivates people to work to keep paying it off.

  • +6

    Credit cards aren't actually to be used as a loan.

    Car loans aren't to be used.

    Mortgage isn't a liability if it matches the value of the asset.

    • +1

      Mortgage isn't a liability if it matches the value of the asset

      I'm assuming you mean there's a sensible gap between the two.

      Need to be careful with people who borrow more as the asset grows or borrow to add value to the asset and realise one day that the asset hasn't grown (or has gone backwards) and their debt has grown and when their ability to service the mortgage is compromised they are in deep doo doo.

  • Where is the mortgage + credit card and mortgage + car loan options?

    • I've put in a request to have the poll options updated, cheers!

  • +2

    Mortgage well under the value of the house. Credit card paid off in full each month. Two cars, a boat, and a jetski owned outright. Stuff having debt for all this stuff.

    • +6

      Damn. I losing the ratrace. Gotta swing by the jetski shop.

      • Everyone who's anyone has a jetski, don't want to be seen being left out.

        • +2

          I'm a fisherman. The jetski is my natural enemy.

          • @[Deactivated]: I used to fish off my old one, custom fibreglass Esky/rod holder setup on the back. Worked quite well. I do agree lots of people with jetskis are absolute dheads though.

  • +7

    The government will do everything possible to prop up the housing market. It will only collapse if matters go beyond their control, otherwise they will do everything they can to stop a collapse. Too many people will be burnt if they don't. And to clarify, I'm saying this is a bad thing because it encourages irresponsible lending.

    • +1

      Irresponsible lending doesn't help stability which in turn doesn't help matters going beyond their control.

    • +3

      Well you can't distort markets and not expect consequences. Fortunately governments are on 3 year terms so they don't need to care about long term stability, all they need to do is kick the can down the road until someone is forced to take one for the team. Then rinse repeat.

  • -2

    There is good debt (affordable mortgage) and bad debt (Car Loan/CC).

    • What if you are using the car loan/cc to make money? Wouldn't that make it good debt

      • +1

        You be the .0001% of the people here who manage to do that.

      • +3

        Home loan: Your home is hopefully appreciating faster than your loan. That's an asset.

        Car loan: Your car is depreciating. It's not an investment.

        Credit card: This is a line of credit. If you don't pay it off you're hit with interest and fees.

        • Car loan - I actually buy cars that I make money off.

          Credit card - you may be using the money to make more profit than you are paying in interest.

          Just pointing out it isn't a hard and fast rule.

        • +1

          A car loan as a Novated lease can actually be beneficial, as all car expenses are tax writeoff and you get GST concessions.

          • +1

            @The Wololo Wombat: This is true but only if you are receiving a car allowance and use your car for work.
            As a general rule of thumb for every $1 you get back in taxes another $2 has been taken from your after tax income.

  • +1

    I have a credit card that has a $1000 limit and I even feel dirty when I have to use that.

  • It's hard being debt-free when you're young & have a family, but it's also very important to have a family.

    Debt is fine as long as you know what you're doing & aren't racking up debt just to buy a luxury brand-new Mercedes, or a collection of Gucci handbags.

    • +5

      'but it's also very important to have a family.'

      Based on what?

      • +13

        My conversations with my cats

      • Based on the fact that you'll need someone to change your nappies when you get put in an aged care facility!

  • -1

    I don't currently have a mortgage since I believe the current economic climate is too risky and current house prices overvalued.

    Is this really the reason? Do you have 20% for the deposit in cash or other investments? I mean are you in position to buy house at all if you'd want to?

    • +2

      Yes I have enough for a deposit through other investments, but with interest rates at record lows, credit growth now in the negatives and wage growth stagnant it doesn't paint a pretty picture for the housing market.

      • Since you have capital in other investments, what makes you think other investments are not overvalued? In other words, if you believe there will be real-estate correction, what makes you confident your investment portfolio won't see correction downwards as well?

        • +1

          My capital has been in gold or gold equivalents since the hiccup in the market late last year. While this gold price won't rise forever I see the market as a whole as being overvalued in the current low interest rate environment with very little monetary policy coming to save us. I'm holding out a little longer to move into a bear or bboz etf. Like everyone else its all just speculation.

      • Depends where you buy… people have said the property market is going to be bad every year for past 100 years…. it's actually looking really good atm.

  • +1

    I think debt can only be justified if it's in service of making more money. Everything else is just pissing money away.

    Most Australian's are educated by the wealthiest people in the country on how to use money so that the wealthiest people in the country can remove it. So most Australian's carry high levels of debt that was taken out to buy losses such as clothes, cars, TVs, mobile phones etc. … so that people will like them. Because that's how Australia's shitty morally bankrupt society works: your worth as a person is determined by the stuff that you display.

    Australians are obsessed with looking wealthy even though most of them are going backwards in wealth.

    • +6

      that's how Australia's shitty morally bankrupt society works

      I wonder what country is morally abundant and by what standards.

      your worth as a person is determined by the stuff that you display.

      No it isn't. Compared to many countries, status symbols are relatively irrelevant here.

    • +1

      Most Australian's are educated by

      Not much at all apparently.

  • +1

    My debt is 7.5 times my annual household income, but due to the debt, my income (after tax) is 3-4 times bigger than it would be without the debt… so I'm very happy with debt and I want more debt so I can make more money.

    With interest rates so low at the moment, it's so easy to make money by borrowing it and investing it…. just got to convince the banks to let you borrow…. if only someone would lend me more money… the things I could do with it….

    • +2

      By the way… this means that my debt is 25.5 times bigger than my annual (job) income (if I don't consider investment income). But I'm actively paying down the principal of that debt… so much so, that the equity gain from paying down debt is actually much bigger than my annual salary…. so I earn more from simply servicing my debt than I do working haha. That's why I love being in debt lol. More debt please!!

      If anyone cares (probably not lol)

      • I've never seen someone so happy to be in debt before :) Let me guess : you're in your 20's and don't have kids yet? Your priorities tend to change once you have a few ( and realise that you're inexorably heading towards middle-age 40 ). It makes you want to live more and work less.

        • Bingo hahaha. Good analysis!

          • +1

            @The Wololo Wombat: Plan to retire around. 45ish with the way I’m tracking :)

            • +1

              @The Wololo Wombat: Retiring at 39😊 Then packing our bags and moving to paradise island with the kids.

              • @[Deactivated]: Teach me your ways!

                • +2

                  @The Wololo Wombat: It basically comes down to 2 things:

                  • we got married young and have been on a dual income since we were 21.

                  • we didn't get divorce.

                  The rest is all down to luck and hard work.

  • +6

    According to my wife, there is no acceptable debt levels the moment you have a 3rd child. So we'll be mortgage-free by the end of the year, which feels like a huge achievement. Both cars paid off and credit cards paid in full at the end of every month. No jet-skis or fishing boats. Instead we have some shares, an emergency savings fund and kids' educations are taken care of until they turn 18.

    • That's a prudent approach. You've got a sensible wife JJB.

      • Yep. She's the sense to my sensibility :) If it wasn't for her ( and @spackbace) I'd go out and buy stuff on a whim all the time.

  • HECS/HELP debt and Mortgage are the only personal debts I would consider.

    Personally I'm surprised at the amount of people who don't have emergency funds.

    • Line of credit is fine for me for emergencies. I'd rather invest every spare cent I have.

  • 0 consumption debt.

    Sensible investment debt level - when you're young you think an LVR of 80% is sound but over time as you become more successful, you release 50% or less is more sensible, and then 0 as you stop working early and enjoy the fruits of your labour.

  • single, under 30.
    rent expenditure is about 27k per year. still got healthy savings+ stocks ~60k. no credit cards, no loan. (maybe) next year I'm planning to get a mortgage instead of paying rent.

  • -3

    The only acceptable debt is positively geared debt.

    • Not if there’s capital appreciation that more than offsets the loss from the difference between yield and interest expense.

      Moreover, with franking credits it’s actually possible to have positive cash flow from equities even where the dividend yield is slightly lower than a margin loan interest rate (hence technically being negatively geared), even if there is no capital appreciation.

  • let me guess, the car isnt an entry level one???

    ive never read barefoot investor but you dont need to be a genious to work out that a car depreciates in value, the loan is whatever figure it is, no matter what the car depreciates down to in 3-5 years,

    you can buy an entry level new car for $20k,
    you can buy a decent second hand one for $10k,

    you dont need a top of the range car to get you and your kids if you have them from safely A to B

    its not rocket science

    • a credit card is simply a tool that lets you avoid having to carry cash around, as is a debit card,

      credit card have small perks such as extended warranty, frequent flyer points,

      if the number of cards and limits you have is going to dictate your spending habits, then you shouldnt have one

      credit cards should only be used as back ups or emergencies, and if its going to be paid off every month,

      20% interest is a ludcirous amount to be paying, personal loans are 10% ish

  • I also think its a cuiltural thing, aussies just dont/cant/are unwilling to think to far into future/plan

    • That hasn't been the case in my family or my in-laws on either side of the bloodline (and i'd class us all as "aussies"). So maybe it's more a case of following the example of those around us?

      edit: Because I know plenty of NESB (and long time Australians) that rack up huge debt in order to "appear" to be living a certain lifestyle.

      • obviosuly not everyone is going to be like that I think its just an entire national mentality

        • Even looking at my wider circle of friends and work colleagues - I wouldn't describe most of them as not planning for the future (there are a couple of exceptions).

          I wouldn't even describe it as a National Mentality. Australia s a nation has been quite forward thinking. If it wasn't then our level of home ownership wouldn't be as high as it is.

          Maybe you are looking at a shorter timeline than me? Household debt has only gone through the roof in the past 20(???) years.

          • @brad1-8tsi: im more referring to other countries as well,
            know a lot of people from overseas who come here for short to longer periods of time, and that is a very common observation they say,

            but hey, ive heard some people say debt is what the economy go round, so maybe its a good thing

            • @Samsungnote10: I think that the perception of visitors of what Australians think might be different from the reality.

              I'm always surprised at the level of debt that guests from Switzerland, Germany, Austria and the Scandinavian countries carry (that's the depth of my sample group) and their lack of desperation to pay it back.

              Australians are very good at having their head above water smiling and waving while under the surface they are treading water like a crazy mofo.

              • +1

                @brad1-8tsi: Australians are very good at having their head above water smiling and waving while under the surface they are treading water like a crazy mofo

                thats true!

  • Do not forget to eat.
    Your credit levels can be whatever level you choose as long as you have enough to cover all other necessities in life.
    Once you infringe upon your necessities, you then have to drastically alter the situation and rectify, otherwise if you can't eat you can't s**t and you die.

  • I don't have a mortgage now but have had several in the past and consider them a necessary route to home ownership for most people. None have ever been huge (I've never wondered how I would possibly pay it off) and I've always started with at least 30% equity. Yes, I've been extremely fortunate.

    I've never borrowed money for a car but I did take out a novated lease on the car I own now (and then bought the car at the end of the lease). I would borrow if at the time of purchase it was one of those 1% deals and I had the cash to pay it anyway.

    Never had a personal loan or borrowed for a holiday.

    Credit cards used as a convenience and paid off every month. If I don't have the money available in the bank when i want to purchase then I don't buy.

    I have had a margin loan to buy shares. I'm not convinced the juice was worth the squeeze.

  • Everyone with a lower tolerance than me is a financially illiterate idiot.

    Everyone with a higher tolerance than me is a financially irresponsible idiot.

  • I'm negative 117k - all mortgage. Hope to knock it all off in five years

  • OP, not everyone gets into debt because they do not have the money to pay the debt. Sometimes it makes more financial sense to borrow to invest in things like property (and park your money in an offset account) particularly in the context of low interest rates.

    At least that's what I was told at a seminar. Unfortunately, I am too poor to follow any such advice :(

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