Hi fellow ozbargainers,
We are planning a first time Europe tour for our fifth anniversary in May. The countries I have in mind are
• England (will be buying return ticket from Sydney to London)- 2 nights
• France (Paris and Nice)- 4 nights
• Switzerland- 2 nights
• Italy (Florence, Rome and Venice)- 4 nights
• Germany (Berlin)- 1-2 nights
• Netherlands (Amsterdam)- 1-2 nights
• Iceland (2 nights)
• London
Our plan is to land in London, take a train to Paris and fly to Nice. From Nice fly to Switzerland and Then from Switzerland fly to Venice. I am thinking doing a road trip from Venice to Rome stopping in between. From Rome fly to Germany and then to Amsterdam fly to Iceland from Amsterdam and then back to London and finally back to Sydney
However, I was planning to squeeze Greece in between for 2-3 nights and I can’t figure out how to go about it. I looked up flight tickets for above mentioned cities and not counting Greece its coming out be around A$900-$1000 per person.
Please help me figure out if this is good way to travel around and should I reduce number of days spent on cities. Is there any way I can do Greece as well? Any sort of advise is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Help Me Plan First Time 3 Weeks Europe Tour
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Wow. Thanks. I am thinking same about Iceland. Would definitely be adding 3-4 days on my trip.
London is no more expensive than Melbourne or Sydney. Not sure why you'd be outraged. If anything food is cheaper.
Ahh, no. Restaurant food is much more expensive and of a much lower standard.
I don’t think it’s more expensive, but you’re right it’s often of a lower standard.
Hi I did something similar in January this year. Amsterdam can be missed unless you really want to see the van gogh museum. I'd also cut germany and Venice.
France can't get enough time.
Jet lag is pretty bad on the way there.
Florence has great art but it's pretty dull otherwise.
Rome is excellent.
I have travelled around Europe a bit. If it helps I loved Amsterdam, Paris and Prague and Rome. I wouldn't rush back to Venice Or Florence, to be honest, and definitely not Pisa. Also in 2018 we travelled around North America and took lots of advice from ozbargainers that worked out really well. For our next big trip, I probably wouldn't lock in so many hotels to stay at and book some as we go along. Some places like Philadelphia, for example, we wished we stayed longer. Have a super time. P.s Don't even contemplate driving in Rome.
Have to disagree with you on Florence. It has some absolutely stunning architecture. The Duomo, the Baptistry, the Pitti Palace, etc. the Uffizi is stunning. We climbed to the top of the Duomo and being able to see the ceiling up close was fantastic and the view across Florence was breath taking. I do agree with you on Pisa; If the tower was straight the place would have a lot less visitors. The answer to hiring cars is to go to the outskirts to rent. I wouldn’t recommend driving a car in any of the main cities.
Totally agree. When I went to Florence I only planned to stay one night as I didn’t want to go every gallery. But I loved it and the city is amazing. It’s the only place I wished that I stayed longer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stendhal_syndrome
There is “condition” associated with being overwhelmed by the beauty of Florence.
A lot of people have mentioned that you'll be losing a day when travelling between places - this is not true.
Europe has a solid network of night trains that offer private two person sleeper cabins. Using these, you can travel while you sleep which works well if you're planning a trip with a lot of destinations. I've done this various times (Poland/Hungary/Prague/Italy/France) and have always been pleased with the cabin and the price (considering it is travel AND accommodation combined). I always manage to sleep 6-8 hours and the passport checks are usually done on board.
I'm currently in Bulgaria and will be boarding a night train to Istanbul in about three hours! The ticket was about 60 AUD which is on the mid-lower end.
If you're very keen on visiting as many places as listed over three weeks - I'd highly recommend night trains!
That's great, thanks OP.
Thanks for the info. We tried to book a night train from Paris to Venice and we just couldn’t make it work. They only allowed you to book a couple of months out and we couldn’t get a definite availability. My little brother went on an overnight sleeper and someone tried to take his stuff, so probably best to chain your luggage together to stop someone stealing your bags. We booked a 3 day cross Canada train, with a sleeper, and it was fantastic.
I found that allowing a day for transit is a bit over overkill. More often than not transport/ trains around Europe are timely and effortless. I found that I managed to tick off my sights on my transit day. Which is alright as it gives time for more exploration.
Yeah, the itineraries seem way too unfocused. Personally, with 3 weeks, I'd only pick a region/country and focus on that area. If you are desperate to fit in as much as possible though, I'd say 2 places a week.
Pick those places based on what you enjoy though, not what people here are saying. I've seen people saying skip Berlin and Amsterdam and others recommend places like Prague and Vienna. Personally I'd prefer the former 2 but that's down to personal preference and my interests. That's not to say the Prague and Vienna recommendations are a bad ones - many people love both, and they are both beautiful cities - but make sure these places fit what you want.
About Italy….if you are planning to fly, especially Rome.
Go early if you are going to get GST returns and the queue can be shocking.
Watch out for pickpockets. Get mobile app GPS map offline is recommended unless you would love the adventures/maze in Venice
Grindelwald and Zermatt in Switzerland are beautiful.
Bear in mind it is best to go in Winter or Summer to experience the best of Switzerland.
May is muddy season and lots of hotels and gondolas are closed.
Summer is the best time for Swiss scenery.
Austria has nice alps too.
We travelled in September/October and never had an issue with things being closed; thanks for the heads up on May, probably due to snow melt and maintenance. Summer/Winter are high seasons.
Don't be too fixated in getting every single destination exactly what you want. Pick a few "must go" locations that make up about half the trip. Then use the other half on locations that makes ideal "transit" points. This way you can find more efficient transport options (cost/time/effort) to chain them together.
You should maximise rail/bus travel for time efficiency and scenery. This means you can't hop large distances every few days. Average a maximum of 1 internal flight per week. If you do a flight, you can make it a long one. The difference between a 1 hour and a 3 hour flight isn't much really in the scale of things.
Airlines in Europe can get expensive if you MUST go between two particular cities at a specific time. Instead of sub-30 Euro fares if you have a bit of flexibility, you end up paying 100 Euro. This applies to trains as well.. Sleeper trains aren't always a practical option either (eg, sometimes crossing borders you have to change trains in the middle of the night). And you miss out on the scenery on sleeper trains.
Another big benefit to trains is that day stopovers at smaller destinations are very practical. Eg, early morning 2 hour train trip from Prague to Dresden. Dump your luggage in the station lockers. Finish up the day in Berlin. Often adding a stopover like this doesn't cost any extra either.
I'd split this into two separate 3 week holidays a couple of years apart if you can afford it. No less than 3 nights on any city you're actually interested in.
Holiday 1
England
France
Switzerland
Italy (Florence, Rome and Venice)Holiday 2
Whichever country you liked best in holiday 1
Germany (Berlin)
Netherlands (Amsterdam)
IcelandRemove Berlin, Amsterdam, Iceland and Switzerland for this time and save that another trip
Minimum 3.5 days per city, the 0.5 being the travel allotment. London, Paris, Rome are great big cities with lots of things to do. The others you can probably get away with 2.5 days depending on how well you plan it
Hahaha seems like you enjoy taking all kinds of transportation in Europe but not any of the actual sights. Do you know what you even want to see ?? Why don't you make a list of your must sees and dos instead of how many countries you can cram into a short amount of time? You can just book a Europe tour that a huge amount of companies offer if that's what you want to do!
When you make this list then u can figure out how many days you want to spend in one place. Then you can link them together and see if transportation works. If its all too hard just go on a tour (which I hated when I did a 8 country one in 21 days a long time ago.. urgh)Personally when I took my husband to Europe for the first time in 3 weeks we only visited 3 cities. The big 3 - London, Paris, Rome. They were our bases, one week each, plenty to see and do in major cities, many day trips out if you get sick of it, no need to waste time moving accommodation every few days, get to experience and feel more of the actual place you visit rather than box tick and then exhaust yourself with MORE moving.
Ok I spent less than a week in Paris because I can't stand it and I wanted to go to Versailles. But obviously husband had to go to Eiffel tower and the Lourve… So I got to pick Versailles and catacombs. We do enjoy not rushing and being able to take our time fully seeing something and take lots of pics.
Also watch out for specific days
- Many countries, shops are just about completely closed on Sundays
- Public holidays (different across countries). Plus and a minus
- Museums often closed on Mondays
- Touristy smaller cities like Prague are much busier in weekends
- Special tours/attractions like BMW Munich, Reichstag, etc is only on specific days.1.5 weeks Iceland and 1.5 weeks Switzerland. Trust me. You'll wish you spent more time there.
We did 15 days, 6 countries, 7 locations (return to London) and the fast pace suited us for our first trip with our one year old daughter. I wouldn't change a thing. We missed a few things but we saw the main things we wanted to see. We didn't pack our itinerary and allowed for flexibility and easy days.
I think if there is one thing to take away from the many responses to your post is that everyone has a different preference and therefore no one can really give you personal advice on what you'll like unless they know you/what exactly you like. A lot of people may have missed your comment about mostly scenery and cities being secondary (perhaps they commented before you wrote that?) and I think a lot of people generally preference the major cities in Europe so you'll get a lot of advice regarding which cities to visit.
Personally, I am a cities-first kinda guy too but have done the road trip all over Europe (as well as many other trips flying, bus, car, etc.) There is literally so much to see/do that it is overwhelming. For scenery I would probably recommend train (someone already mentioned the Bernina Express I think), bus, or even car as you'll get a chance to see stuff along the way as well as at your various destinations. I have a soft spot for Lago di Garda (Lake Garda) in Italy and Gorges du Verdon in France. Amazing places and not somewhere the majority of tourists have traveled. Swiss and Austrian Alps are also great.
My advice would be that you Google "spectacular scenery in Europe" thoroughly and then decide which of those are a must see for you - then plan your route along those lines (you will most likely have to sacrifice some off your list - which you've already been doing anyway.)
You're probably going to have to visit some cities anyway, so base that on your scenic route. Since this is highly personal, I loved Venice, Rome, and Florence (in that order) - definitely Italy should be on your list IMO. Didn't rate Paris that highly, but it's worth a visit for sure in one's lifetime. I lived in Amsterdam so am probably a bit biased, and there is plenty to see in London also.
So to sum up the impossible, maybe start in Italy (work your way up from Rome to Florence to Venice then via Lago di Garda to Como/Lugano and then take the train through Switzerland and then down via Gorges du Verdon to Nice/Monaco and back up to Paris through the Loire Valley (amazing castles). If you can do even a part of that, I guarantee you amazing scenery.
Good luck and enjoy!
Thanks OP for such detailed info. I will probably leave out Germany as well. I am thinking about 4 countries max now. It's clichéd but you gotta go Paris for at least once. Won't be spending more than couple days there. I will summise all the info here and hopefully do one hell of a trip.
I went to 10 Euro countries in 30 days a few years back. Absolute nightmare and never again. While some places don't need a lot of time (think Luxembourg) others do. And even in places that don't need a lot of time to explore, you become tired very quickly of travelling between cities and all you want to do is rest.
For that trip, I would have been much more comfortable with 5 or 6 countries in 30 days. But even at that pace, don't expect to dive deeply into these places. You'll just be seeing the sights and not much else. I'd stick to 4 countries in a 3 week trip. England (London only), France (Paris only), Italy (Rome, Florence), Spain (Barcelona, Madrid).
Halve your itinerary or double your stay duration.
We did 9 countries in 45 days and that was perfect. Do max 3 to 4 countries… Austria, Switzerland is a must. England and germany are also amazing. Italy is beautiful but much nicer in summer.
Paris is not my cup of tea but everyone is different.
Driving through Europe is much better
Experience.My 2 cents
OP, can you please share your planned itinerary once you have finalised? Also please share your experience later. This will help everyone to plan for their 1st visit ro Europe.
Yes of course. All the help here has been overwhelmingly great.
One of the things I find helps is to put together a spreadsheet with the days running down the rows and everything I’m doing across the columns. This includes all my flights, all my transport details, all my accommodation addresses, all the things I’ve prebooked, per location, the costs, (if you want to), etc. that way I have one big overview. It also allows me to see what the holes might be. Last time I then put all the electronic tickets etc into their own workbook pages. It keeps everything in one location. For me, I also did a hard copy of the tickets, air bnb addresses etc in case my technology went screwy but, also, because we learnt that handing the driver/ticket collector a printed ticket often made things easier. you store this in your luggage and just take out what you need for the day. this also acts as a handy itinerary to hand to your next of kin so they know where you are, at any time, if an issue arises. This should also contain SIM numbers, etc, if you have them.
I do this spreadsheet at the planning stage. Before I even buy the airline ticket from Australia. It gets you an idea on whats feasible and the overall budget for a trip. When the airline sales come, I have pre-canned rough itineraries and can make a decision quickly. Most important factors:
- Accommodation costs in particular location
- Transport cost and exact timings.
- Timings and costs of "must do" attractions
- Leftover "activities" time in particular location. If the "leftover" time is low, probably need to add extra days.
Planning the travel is half the fun for me. I have made about 20 pre-canned itineraries in the last 4 years. Of which about 10 I travelled on.
If you want to see a lot of country's why not do a 2 week cruise? See a new place each day, only unpack once, travel during the night while asleep.
When I travel, I usually spend at least a week in each Major city. Otherwise, you are rushing it and you may miss out on some things. For example, if you are visiting Paris you will need at least 4 to 5 days to see the major attractions properly. If you are planning to visit the Louvre, you may need a full day to see the entire display in the Museum. Most of the attractions will have queues to get in, to buy tickets and to go through the security checks. You need to factor that and allow some time for any delays. Wherever possible, try to pre-purchase tickets or purchase city passes to avoid some of the queues.
Skip the line outside the Louvre and take the secret entrance.
The process has changed since I did it, but the concept is the same: skip the line.
https://sightseekersdelight.com/guide-to-louvre-secret-entra…
I have been to Europe three times, once summer on a tour, once summer self organised and once winter self organised. If you want to see the Swiss alps, recommend train from Paris to Bern, hire a car in Bern and then drive to Lauterbrunnen or Grindelwald for a couple of nights. The valleys are beautiful and there are plenty of hikes and views. From there it’s a lovely drive to Lake Como, or up to Munich. I would choose either Switzerland or Iceland for one trip unless you have heaps of cash, they are both incredibly expensive and I try to mix a euro trip with expensive and lower cost destinations. So expensive that as lovely as those places are, it’s a financial relief to get to the next destination. The best way to hack Switzerland or Iceland is to buy supermarket food and/or have accomm breakfasts as much as possible, eating out is ridiculous. Even the reliable old McD is dearer and Switzerland and doesn’t exist in Iceland! I’d pick Switzerland over Iceland simply because you don’t have to fly and it’s central for so many other possible next stops.
Thanks OP, great advise on Switzerland.
If you prefer to train over driving, there's the Bernina Express over the alps! Can recommend :-)
https://www.seat61.com/BerninaExpress.htm
Also highly rate flixbus for getting around between most major cities. Cheaper than trains, usually direct between central bus/train stops. Easy to book through their app.
Yeah way too many places. Spend more time in each country and visit more than one city in each
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Okay, do as everyone had said, your original itinerary is way too packed, you need to cut it down.
I'm living in London at the moment so I've done a lot of European travel this year.
What do you like doing? Your itinerary is very city focussed, which is fine if that's what you want but I personally would get sick of cities after that long. After a while all cities are the same, there's only so many interesting museums and restaurants to go to
I would personally allow more time in rural areas. If you like hiking go to the Slovenia Alps near Venice, there's some great hikes near Bohinj and you can stay in the mountain huts for cheap! And if you go to Slovenia maybe you wouldn't want to go to Switzerland as it covers the same ground. I wouldn't bother with Ljubljana though.
Another thing I personally like is road trips, have a broad itinerary, say from Venice to Rome, but don't plan everything, go where the road takes you! You could link this in with a trip to Slovenia
I'd also advise Munich over Berlin, but I'm in the minority on that one. Munich is more 'classical' Germany, beer halls and such, whereas I find Berlin a bit drab.
Unless you've got a specific reason to come here, I wouldn't bother with London. Especially as your first city, you'll be outraged by the price of everything (except for the free museums)
A sample itinerary could be
Fly into Paris
Eurostar to London (if you want)
Fly to Trieste or Venice (Italy)
Drive through Italy and the Alps (in either Italy/Austria/Slovenia), hitting up your key Italian cities.
Return car in Rome (it's usually super expensive to drop off a car in another country, which is why I suggest flying into Trieste or Venice to pick up the car, then going to the Alps.)
Fly to Berlin (if you want)
Fly home
3 weeks would be about right for this trip. If you want to include Iceland add an extra week onto the start or end.