So go booked for failing to stop at a stop sign at an intersection
It's a funny intersection the stop sign is about 10m from the actual line at the intersection
I stopped at the sign and turned left and got booked.
Officer advised I can't stop at the sign had to drive up to the line… ok
Just checked the fine. Fail to stop at stop sign at an intersection
Thoughts?
It's $400 and 3 points BTW.
Stop signs is to warn you that you need to stop soon, AT THE LINE.
They wanted to save money with the stop sign, so instead of erecting a separate pole with the STOP sign, they tacked it onto the nearest power pole which is around 10m away.
You're supposed to stop on the solid line at an intersection with a stop sign, not at the sign itself. End of story.
Same deal with Give Way (broken line) and traffic lights.
It's pretty clearly written in the Australian Road Rules and probably the driver's handbook when you were learning:
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/consol_reg/arr210/s67…
Wow..Too many rules and strict fines are making people a robots who just follows the rule without much common sense.
The OP is the one who lacks common sense here. You can see from the google map link that even with the camera on the roof of the google van, the view on the right side is still obstructed by the tall grass at the stop sign position. Why the hell on earth would you stop there to check if it is safe to proceed when the intersection and stop line is 10m ahead?
I'm of the opinion that the officer could have probably let you go in this particular situation as your view of oncoming traffic was clear.
However, to think that you don't even know where to stop at a stop sign is quite alarming. The officer may have decided to issue you a fine so you will understand and remember where to stop.
@OP
Road rules are actually written in the law: https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/view/pdf/inforce/current/…
If you google it, even government and motoring body resources (read: you'd expect them to be trustworthy) get the laws COMPLETELY wrong, and incorrectly paraphrase the written law. Do NOT trust it. It's actually insane to me that this is how it is.
Cops are not 100% aware of the written law either. They mostly run by the 'fine book' of possible fines they can give you. That's why you got some generic "didnt stop at SIGN" fine when it's obviously incorrect.
QLD road rules, if there is both a road line marking and a sign, the road line marking trumps the sign (generally). There's plenty of times when the line marking and sign mismatch, too.
You could contest this on the grounds of the fine given doesn't match the reality, so it should be thrown out. YMMV. My own personal experience, and stuff I've read - courts are effectively corrupt, and there's high chance the judge will just change the fine on the spot.
Section 322 (3) (and surrounding sections) essentially mean you will lose the "the sign is miles away" argument. You'll also lose the "but I stopped at the sign!" argument because you didn't stop at the stop-line, which is the only legal requirement you had.
341 (1) says the stop sign will apply to you.
Section 67 if you wanna read about the "stopping" bit. Sign is meaningless in your intersection; only at level crossings, IF a stop line is non-existent, you stop at the sign.
I've paid the fine and moved on. I admit to being imperfect and throwing myself down for mercy in the court of ozbargain…
That being said, I totally admit I made i mistake and am willing to take it on board.
We all live and learn
As long as you turned safely then you've nothing to feel ashamed about! There's plenty more people doing plenty more malicious, intentionally malicious, stuff on the roads that get away with it for you to feel bad about not counting to 3 (which could have changed a safe moment to turn onto the road, into one that stopped you….ironic isn't it.
$400 is pretty rich for 3 seconds. Especially when running a red light is $300. Go figure.
You just stopped in the middle of nowhere (dangerously), in a place you can't see the intersection properly, meaning you would only see traffic from a short distance. There's bushes to the left and tall grass on the right, how did you judge it was safe??
The reason the stop sign is there is because there's no island or path area near the actual intersection. Some common sense needs to be applied to driving, and life in general. Please start using it.
haha sorry dude - don't think many people will be siding with you on this one. Pretty clear that the line is there.
This is the common monkey see, monkey do scenario.
Maybe its time to readjust your car seat higher so you can see better or time to get glasses.
But Dayum….$400 that is alot.
RMS NSW
Stop signs and stop lines
Where there is no STOP line, stop before reaching, and as close as possible, to the intersection. A STOP sign or a STOP line means you must give way to all vehicles travelling in, entering or approaching the intersection, whether vehicles are turning left or right, or going straight ahead.Feb 16, 2018
That car for sale on the corner changes colour when you drive closer, OP is a wizard…
Changes make & model aswell :)
Thanks for confirming I wasn't going insane!
The Blue car was on sale in June 2018…the Red one in May 2019
You stopped randomly in the middle of the street. You then drove straight through a stop sign. Not sure how you're hoping to get out of this one.
He stopped behind a correctly stopped car and thinks he will get credit for hiding behind him. Valid point.
Can you link the Google map, please? Or say which intersection it is? We want to know too.
Edit: Sorry, I was reading the post from my phone on a quick break at work and missed a link in original post. Looking at the intersection, this is very dangerous part of the road, and there should be traffic lights there. The 'Stop' sign is a bit back from the line because they couldn't put it anyhere else closer. And the writing 'Stop' on the asphalt is a bit forward from the sign, again back from the line, but for a good reason. Possibly in the peak hour, there is a lot of cars lined up (5,6,..10), so everybody can see the 'Stop' signs. It is common sense to stop there, and if you didn't stop just before the line for 3 seconds (even if there is no cars at all), you will get a fine. I wouldn't be surprised if they put traffic lights there soon.
Another Traffic Fine Post Seeking Other Opinions
Right side is completely open… Can see about 500m down the rd
Yet you missed the police officer….
I get that it can be fun to break the road rules, but cars are dangerous. If you are not paying enough attention to the road to avoid fines, then maybe don't break the rules.
Good luck buddy. I feel for ya. it's a bit shit…but given the way that intersection is….that's the best place for it. You'd be hard pressed to find a judge that would dismiss the fact you should have been paying attention to what was ahead well before the intersection…and then question what it was you were doing that you didn't notice the sign.
Unless there are mitigating circumstances.
Though there is a 'stop' on the road which indicates that stop sign might not have been enough. Certainly you could argue it…but then it's a lot of trouble stress and time?
Tough one. Find the right judge and frame your argument really really well..and have a very very clean record and you could get off. In fact…a super clean record might be the only thing that allows any leniency. Dispute it in writing…then after being denied as I imagine you would, ask to dispute it in court.
The real fine here should be for thinking a Google Maps link was a substitute for an mspaint sketch
When stopping prematurely, instead off near the line, think about the people behind you. You may cause an accident, or cause a road rage incident, because you made them stop twice, while you stopped once and drove off across the line.
This is also why you shouldn't stop to let pedestrians cross when you have right of way - the cars behind can't see why you've stopped for no apparent reason in the middle of the street.
I always wondered, are bus drivers and police exempt from stopping completely at the STOP sign/line in NSW?
Seems to happen often in one of my work routes.
Write a letter asking for the incident to be reviewed and the ticket withdrawn.
Inala is the police station closest to that intersection. Writer a letter addressed to “Superintendent of Traffic, Inala Police Station” politely asking for a review of the Traffic Infringement Notice. Post the letter ASAP and before 28 days of being issued the ticket, with a photocopy (or a certified copy) of the ticket. I recommend attaching a print out or screen shot from Google Maps of the intersection (zoomed enough to slow details of the intersection, including road markings, streets and curb size).
I don’t know all the specifics of your particular incident or what exactly you said to the officer/s when they questioned you, but you should assume that (1) dash camera/vehicle mounted camera recorded how you drove and where you stopped; and (2) body worn camera/digital voice recorder on the officer captured your conversation with them.
The point I’m making is that you must ensure what would you did and what you said at the time of getting the ticket matches the bleeding-heat story your about to put in the letter. Forget about the “impolite” attitude of the officer for now. While it may by important to your bruised ego, it’s not relevant to your appeal for mercy. If you had a poor attitude or were aggressive towards the officer, then this letter is probably a waste of your time.
In the body of the letter you should included statements, relevant to your specific scenario, such as:
(A) I’m familiar with the intersection. I use it approximately “x” times a week. I always stop at the stop sign and have never had any traffic crashes, near-misses or previous tickets at that intersection. I was not aware, until the officer told me, that I had to stop closer to the painted line than the stop sign.
(B) I am not familiar with the intersection. It was the first time I had driven along that section of road. I saw that it was controlled by a stop sign, and I correctly stopped my car for approximately 2 seconds, gave-way to other motor vehicles, ensured it was safe to turn left onto Archerfield Rd, and safely entered the intersection with no obstruction or hinderance to other road users or pedestrians. Where I stopped my car gave me clear vision to safely assess the intersection. Make out that the stop-line in relation to the stop-sign is unique, something you had not encountered before.
(C) Describe the scene, note the traffic conditions, your visibility, obstructions at the intersection, speed zone, the lighting, time of day, road conditions, road markings, atmospheric conditions, flat road, crest of hill, blind corner, truck parked in they way, level ground, street lighting was on, etc. For example, the intersection is a 4 way intersection on a dry, sealed, flat section of bitumen road, with clear visibility in all directions. I drove along Pine Rd intending to turn left onto Archerfield Rd. I know this to be a signed 60km/h speed zone. I was the only person in my car. It was a bright day with clear atmospheric conditions. I completely stopped my car next to the to the stop sign and safely assessed the intersection for other vehicles. My car came to a complete stop for about “x” seconds while I gave way to one passing motor vehicle. Having complied with the stop sign, I determined it was then safe for me to complete the left turn so I slowly turned left and continued along Archerfield Rd. I had clear, unobstructed vision of other vehicles to my left and right. I don’t wear glasses or contact lenses for driving. I short time later I was intercepted by police. The ticket was issued at 10:00am on Tuesday 24/09/2019. I was driving a red Mitsubishi Magna station wagon, Qld registration “Too Lit”. I own the car and it’s registered to me. I was driving from home and was early to start my rostered shift at 11:00am at the medical centre.
(D) Describe other vehicles in and around your vehicle. E.G. The car in front of me stopped, and I stopped behind it. E.G. I was the only car at the intersection. There were no other cars in front or behind me. Note: This is relevant because there is case law in QLD (case law which is a defence to stop sign/line tickets) that allows the 2nd vehicle following the 1st vehicle to roll through the stop line as long as it’s safe to do so and as long as the 1st vehicle correctly came to complete stop at the stop line.
(E) Describe what the police were doing. E.G. Static observation, you cut them off in the intersection, they were stopped behind you. E.G. They were covertly parked approximately 50m from the intersection and were monitoring the stop sign from a static position.
(F) Admit your traffic history. The officer reviewing your letter will, of course, have access to your traffic history, and will check it to see if you’re a repeat offender. E.G. I have never received a ticket or a caution from Police for failing to stop at a stop sign. This infringement would be a regrettable blemish on my otherwise clean and safe driving record.
(G) Admit what you have learned from the incident and politely ask for a review of the ticket. E.G. I admit that I did stop my car at the stop sign, and I safely completed my turn at the at the intersection. No traffic crash or obstruction was caused. However, as the Police Officer brought to my attention, I should have stopped closer to the painted stop line. I acknowledge that ignorance fo the law is not excuse, and admit that I was not aware of this technicality when faced with a stop-sign that is offset to a stop-line. I’m grateful for the new information that the officer has taught me with regard to these road rules. I can assure you this is an experience I have certainly learned a lot from and will never make this mistake again.
(H) Conclude with what you want to happen next. E.G. I respectfully submit this letter for your consideration, with a view to excusing me from this traffic infringement notice on this one occasion.
In summary: This is a mercy letter (not a complaint letter regarding the rude officer). You know that having a drivers license is a privilege. The intersection was easy for you to navigate. I have always stopped at stop signs. I will now stop closer to stop lines. Thanks to your officer for educating me of this technical road-rule matter. I was not driving urgently or dangerously. I safely entered and exited the intersection. No crash or obstruction was cause to any other road user. I have now learned from this experience. Please, with all due respect, review the facts of this one incident and show some leniency by waiving the ticket in this instance.
Side note: Carol Stewart (Ex-Qld Police Commissioner Ian Stewart’s wife) had her stop sign/stop line ticket withdrawn by writing a letter asking for a review.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/wife-of-police-commis…
Did you really stop at the actual STOP sign?
I almost failed my driving test for this exact reason. Never forgotten since.
This is in every driving test. If you fail this you’d fail the test.
Someone that stops at the sign instead of the line I'd ask to re do the test drive.
Then the stop sign needs to be moved