According to How long should your washer, fridge, TV and other appliances last? - CHOICE
Laptops
Cheaper to replace after 3–7 years
Life expectancy:
· Budget / entry level: 4 years
· Mid-range: 6 years
· High-end: 8 years
That's about double what my expectations are so how does this relate to the Australian Consumer Law (ACL) that goods should last a reasonable length of time. I know that extended warranties in Australia is a waste of money due to ACL but do you think the above is reasonable?
The way tech moves these days, a high-end $4000-5000 PC becomes entry level after 4-5 years I think. Even quicker if we are talking about a laptop.
The entry level ones become crap after maybe 2? years. Particularly if the owner doesn't know how to put an SSD in, installs random crap etc
Username checks out.
I've been worthless for the past few years already
Noted.
"Random crap" i.e. install Chrome without deselecting the bundled McAfee install, reducing any sub-$1000 machine to a paperweight.
Seen this happen a lot in the past few years as Facebook drops support for older browsers and "helpfully" links to the Chrome installer as a suggested fix.
So, is Choice's claims of any significance?
Does quoting Choice have any impact in a claim?
Or is this just self important and baseless nonsense?
Or is this just self important and baseless nonsense
This.
Choice have been irrelevant and bias for some time now.
I have no idea why people tolerate articles like that.
It's not as if the writer knows what they're talking about nor made any attempt to provide technical understanding.
If they said a fridge lasts X years because the first thing to fail is usually the technosuperplastic seals around the compressormabob goes through physicsconcept, then we have something to talk about.
It is based on research:
We base this figure on the more than 1000 responses we received to our 2018 consumer reliability survey, member and manufacturer feedback, and the type of product – some appliances (like TVs) have an easier working life than others (like washing machines).
@brisdaz: That's a very liberal use of the word research. It is a survey. It is the lowest form of "research" and it is inappropriate to the subject being discussed.
Surveys are appropriate if we were discussing perception of quality/durability but the writer is making claims against expected service life.
Expected service life is a technical subject. We know how many strokes a keyboard can endure before expected failure, number of KMs from a tire, battery life of anything with a battery. All this is data from a combination of controlled tests and real world tests, and they've technical data to support the claims.
This author is writing out of his arse.
@brisdaz: Choice most certainly does not conduct "research".
They survey their members and subscribers.
It doesn't even perform market research of non-subscribers. Only a specific genre of individual actually signs up and pays $90/yr for a Choice subscription.
Manufacturer feedback depends whether the manufacterer has paid their super secret "licence fee" that is super dooper legit and completely non-bias, just ask them lol. /s :)
@brisdaz: If you're going to quote their "research" you may as well have kept reading:
This was a member-only study, and we think respondents demonstrate higher expectations of their appliances than the general population does.
@HighAndDry: Where does it say this? An internet search doesn't reveal the location of this fragment nor a quick peruse of the Choice article. Funnily enough this forum post came up first.
Please don't make me out to be a bad or novice guy here. I'm just aiming for discussion and seeking opinions.
@brisdaz: Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way criticizing you. Not even really going after the article but the article does highlight a pet peeve of mine - people making unsubtantiable claims and backing it up with fluff and trying to pass it off by flashing a badge of supposed authority.
Heck, I even read this stuff in professional journals.
It's good that you've brought this up and clearly, you're neutral. I don't believe zeggie nor H&D are going after you but they're definitely shooting down Choice hard.
I normally use the ATO asset depreciation guide as a starting point. So minimum: laptops 2 years, desktop computer equipment 4 years
ACL is how long you have warranty while choices is how long an item is expected to work
I think we have been brainwashed by the relevant industries that we should expect less.
Since when should we 'expect' a $2500 TV to only last 3 years. Or an $800 washing machine to only last 2 years…
Since we started wanting the features of a $10,000 TV for $2,500….
Imagine a company came out with a TV - 720p, CCFL backlight TN LCD panel, bog standard 60Hz, 300nits peak brightness, no smart features, just plays TV and… what's it called, "tele text"(?), massive bezels, hard plastic all-round, all for $3,000.
But it has a warranty of 10 years and will easily last that long too.
Who'd buy it? Absolutely noone.
A boomer would.
Then promptly return it as it doesn't have a 12v input for their caravan :)
Ah, but their 4k, solid state, triple tuner PVR does run on 12V DC.
Who told you what we want is worth $10,000?
The companies involved turn big profits and make money with every machine we buy.
So they make us think they are sticking $10,000 worth of tech in there and we should just be bloody thankful we get 2 years out it.
Then we should sell it before it explodes and buy a new one. But by then all that tech is standard so they have to make up another $10,000 worth of gizmos to stick in there.
And we're thankful it only costs $2,500.
The companies involved turn big profits and make money with every machine we buy.
Yes, that's right, they're in it for profit, not charity.
And we're thankful it only costs $2,500.
No one's telling you to be thankful, just have some bloody perspective.
This was only 6 years ago:
https://www.cnet.com/reviews/sony-xbr-84x900-preview/
As of early 2013, they're still the only 4K TVs you can buy. If you have the money. And you probably don't. The list price is $20,000 for the LG and $25,000 for the Sony.
That's $20,000+ for 84" 4K LED TVs. (Oh yeah, that's in USD too).
Now?
https://www.jbhifi.com.au/tcl/tcl-85p8m-85-4k-quhd-led-smart…
TCL 85P8M 85" 4K QUHD LED Smart TV for $3,820.
I have a laptop bought in 2009 that still works. It’s a bit slow, but it’s functional. A desktop from about 2012 that works great. Once again slower than the newest laptop/pc but I can get everything done well.
Neither were high end.
I don’t think the above estimations are too high. I think they’re too low.
I agree with cheaplee, the industry has convinced us that our products need to be replaced too quickly. We never give them a chance to actually get old to see how long they will last.
Does the laptop last more than 5 minutes on battery power?
Laptop lasts a few hours on battery still.
Lol, sorry. I call BS.
What's the full charge capacity and capacity remaining percentage as reported by Windows? steps here
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I don’t currently have it with me at the moment (the grandparents are using it for solitaire and emails). I’ll have a check when I next visit though.
I have a laptop bought in 2009 that still works. It’s a bit slow, but it’s functional. A desktop from about 2012 that works great.
Everyone's usage patterns and level of care for their possessions is different. Everyone's definition of "works great" is also different too.
The statutory guarantee has to apply to not just you, but also your cousin/nephew/uncle/etc who throws their laptop around when they come home, smacks it when it's a little slow, spills food and drinks on it (just not enough to kill it outright), uses it on bedding or cushions with zero ventilation, etc.
The statutory guarantee has to apply to not just you, but also your cousin/nephew/uncle/etc who throws their laptop around when they come home, smacks it when it's a little slow, spills food and drinks on it (just not enough to kill it outright), uses it on bedding or cushions with zero ventilation, etc.
Maybe you need to work on your understanding of the ACL. How the ACL applies very much depends on specific circumstances. Everyone has the same rights, but the circumstances of each claim tend to be different. In particular, you should not expect the right to any remedy under the ACL when the issue is caused by the abuse of the equipment.
I don't think they understand life expectancy. I'd say that 4 years is not enough for a budget laptop.
If I buy a budget laptop today and install Linux on it, I'd easily expect it to still be working in 10 years time. In terms of performance, it may be well under par for what will be available at that time, but if the workload has not changed that's irrelevant. The hardware should last.
As a concrete example, if I configure a cheap laptop to monitor my beer brewing equipment and use it to formulate my beer recipes, the same hardware will be perfectly adequate for the same tasks in 10 years time as it was today. I just need it to be built well enough that it continues to work.
If it's not solid-state, it'll break. And normal use is not just plugging it in, allowing a single Linux script to run, and leaving it in a humidity-and-temperature stable environment. Because you're right, if you had a budget laptop and left it to monitor your home brewing set up, piping data across your network? It could easily run forever.
But that's not the normal use-case for a laptop.
If it's not solid-state, it'll break.
Maybe, maybe not. I've got laptop drives that are older than 10 years and still work.
And normal use is not just plugging it in, allowing a single Linux script to run, and leaving it in a humidity-and-temperature stable environment.
You are making incorrect assumptions here. In my case, process control is done by embedded devices and they have to work in a pretty tough environment, very much the exact opposite of what you describe. The laptop is used in exactly the same manner as most other laptops are. It's used to run desktop software, edit documents, update spreadsheets and databases, browse specific web pages, etc. Sometimes plugged in, sometimes not. Definitely not always on. The point I was making is that if the workload stays the same, then you can get useful service out of the hardware for much longer than just a few years; expecting the hardware to last a decade is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is saying that the laptop build quality only needs to target a 4 year lifespan.
I had to replace my 10+ year old HP Pavilion laptop only because it hit the pavement in Korea. It was still perfectly good for editing code and building software releases. The battery has aged and was only good for about an hour's light work, but that's to be expected.
Honestly agreed sounds a bit much to me, though I wonder if thats because we're so used to being dogged with warranty and ACL that we as a collective have dropped our expectations?
Personally though I'd think:
$0 to $800 - 1.5 to 2 years ACL
$800 to $2700 - 3 to 4 years ACL
Over $2700 - 4 to 4.5 ACL
Maybe over $5000 - 5 or 6 ACL?
So it seems my expectations are much below CHOICES one.