From News.com
Apple also used the event to unveil a new version of its professional desktop computer, the Mac Pro.
The high-powered device, which will start at $US6000 ($A8600), was revealed alongside a connected display.
I don't even know what sort of home PC would possibly cost that much, but can't see how apple one could be more highpowered than a pc where you spent half of that?
This. So many regular consumers scoff at the price but don’t understand that they’re not the target demographic. It’s not like they’d even consider it anyway.
The people who buy these likely depend on it to make money, and it likely pays for itself after one project.
What I don't get as an IT admin is…you can get an equally performing Windows or Linux machine for much less money. All the industry standard video editing programs are available cross-platform, such as Vegas Pro, the Adobe suite etc.
I have no issue with premium hardware for a premium use, but value for money is what is puzzling me.
Example for those interested (this is a full-spec pro equivalent for under half the price)
Also career IT admin here.
Agreed that the hardware is ridiculously overpriced. I do like that they've brought modularity back. What interested me, but didn't get much coverage, is the card with an FPGA on it. Something like that, if the FPGA could be programmed per-app, would be a real advantage.
Is it equivalent spec, or same spec. Big difference.
I noticed DDR3 ram, old server boards. Are the cpu's actually the same, or are they equivalent?
I know for example the Mac Pro was cheaper than a PC to build for the same spec, but waaaaaaaaay cheaper to build a pc of equivalent spec.
@aong152: This was a quick Google find, not something I made myself or heavily researched - the specs are close enough for comparison's sake.
Ehh not really - the closest CPU to the spec that Apple are listing is the W-3275M which has a US RRP of $7500. 4TB of PCIe flash is going to be between $2k and $10k depending on design (read & write cycles). for 1.5TB of RAM, you'll need 24 sticks of 64 (assuming the board can support that). They're pretty uncommon with AUS pricing at about $1300 per 64GB DIMM ($31,000 total). Vega II Pro and Pro Duo pricing hasn't been announced but assume $5-10k based on Quadro's of similar spec.
So to built the Mac Pro yourself with Windows parts, $50K+ AUS isn't out of the question.
Yep, a friend with a photography and video production business is switching to PC precisely because apple is overpriced and the software is increasingly cross platform. He reports many other professionals doing the same.
@ozbjunkie: My full-time professional music producer/videographer mate ditched lifelong Apple for a 9700K/64GB RAM/2x 1TB NVMe/2x 8TB HDD RAID/RTX 2080 PC a few months ago and says he's more productive than ever, and loves Windows' flexibility.
That same machine he uses for work can also game at high fidelity, which is added value to his decision he didn't even think about beforehand.
He's very happy.
You do realise you have linked to a parts list that is about 4 years old, that is a comparison to the old 2013 model Mac Pro, don't you? That parts list and pricing is not even remotely close to being relevant fo this new Mac Pro. I wouldn't be bragging about being an Admin and trying to sound informed if you can't even tell that! 😉
back in the 90's it was about software not hardware, and it still is… it's the data that really counts.
$8600 is the base price. There's rumours a fully loaded Mac pro will cost $30K USD = $43K AUD.
Yep. For a lot of big companies this is a reasonable fee for a powerhouse video editing workstation.
To be honest, that's long gone.
Most big companies actually prefer Windows now, because you get more features/powerful software and more powerful hardware. The Mac Pro days have gone from a niche, to a very tiny minority of a niche. The big schtick used to be "security", but Windows is much more fleshed out now, and big companies are likely to use VMs, Antivirus software, and have computer-use policies. Not to mention, most businesses are switching over to "good enough" ultrabooks and using their own servers to do the heavy lifting, something you can't do with Apple's ecosystem (and Linux requires keeping an IT specific in that code).
In fact, I've noticed the decline in interest for Hackintosh machines, which correlates with this changing atmosphere. Soon, they'll phase out Ultrabooks and iPads, and they might actually move towards Corporate Android phones with the servers doing the heavy lifting (once connection speeds get more stable, responsive, faster, and cheaper).
@Kangal: I'm not disagreeing with you that Windows are more common as high-end workstations, but Apple's own internal sales numbers would determine whether they launch a product like this or not, at this price. And clearly they did. It's a niche where they think they can make money still.
@Skramit: Not at all.
Big companies can afford to design, manufacture, and sell a product at loss.
Apple is a Huge Corporation, they can more than afford to lose a lot of money on this. However they insist wasting the minimum amount money/effort on their Macintosh-line. On top of that, they still try to turn a high profit margin.
So them making a new Mac Pro and selling it at such a high price doesn't indicate their demand or success. It's just Apple putting something to keep up their appearance, and Apple being Apple.
At manufacture factory, Apple would use Windows computer to make Apple products.
Wouldn't a real video editing company, those trying to break into Hollywood o similar environment, top advertising, etc will use hardware specifically built and made for video editing and video editing alone?
Hardware running an operating system specific for video editing will perform heaps better than on commercial operating systems busy doing mundane things like browsing or e-mailing … which Win and Mac machines do.
I am not an expert at all. Just commenting.
It is just I have seen specific hardware, including consoles rather than keyboards, specific for video editing. No Mac on sight.
Even for professionals this is for the even more higher professional. I edit wedding videos as casual work and even if I do wedding full time I won't ever need this, Macbook Pro would do the job. The Mac Pro are for someone who need to churn like 4K videos day in day out. At that business level, the cost is easily justifiable.
But for the price, you can get something that's way more powerful on the PC side. Windows workstations are getting much more common than Macs for video crunching nowadays as MacOS is losing most of its unique selling points.
People aren't buying Apple products because of its price vs performance over the competitors (because Apple obviously aren't winning that fight), part of the reason I believe is brand loyalty.
But I agree for video, more and more companies are using Windows workstations. The markets for Apple is reducing and partly because people didn't like FCPX. Although I personally prefer FCPX over Premiere and is my main reason why I'm still on Mac.
At that business level, the cost is easily justifiable
At $43K it will have to be a lot of weddings and 4K videos… a big lot.
Just ignore Apple. That's what I do
Indeed - nothing emphasises “total indifference to all things Apple” more clearly than clicking on, reading, commenting on, and voting on comments in an Apple-related thread.
I'm just passing knowledge and wisdom, my brother.
It’s not a home pc that’s the point.
It’s designed for high end developers, film makers and musicians etc.
you are not it’s target audience so no need to worry about what it costs.
even for them, is this really worth it compared to a custom PC for a third or EVEN half of the price?
Mac Pro has always been a very high end machine and has always been priced accordingly.
Look on the Apple website the Mac it’s replacing was $5000+
Lets do that for half the price shall we? Pointers?
The CPU range was only announced by Intel June 3 (~yesterday US time?). I can't find retail pricing yet.
But this roughly is in the ballpark for $4500 AUD: https://au.pcpartpicker.com/list/R4N9V6
(I picked the CPU because it's reasonably expensive at about $1k, not for its performance specs)
@abb: When your work and income depends on it, you don't want a gaggle of parts to juggle. Perfectly fine for home/gaming but not prosumer. Apple's support is second to none and will get you back up and running if anything goes wrong quickly. Some professionals also prefer the OS for their specific use.
This isn't a home PC by any stretch of the imagination and other workstations can be as pricey too.
Comparisons to consumer kit and jokes about costs etc are missing the point. Yes, Apple is absolutely a higher cost premium but there are added value items that others don't provide.
I don't even like Macs, never owned one, likely never will as it doesn't suit my usage, but I can see the point of this.
Same thing applies to the $999 stand, absolutely absurd for you and I, but it's not too crazy for the target market which is where they make their profits. I'd rather they did that though than sell our private data to make their money…
To each their own I guess.
@Hybroid: This! The idea of assembling a pc or wasting time troubleshooting/send away if something stops working would be a dealbreaker for a work machine. Granted, Apple charge a premium for their products, in some instances ridiculously overcharging (I still laugh at the Apple USB Superdrive), but it appeals to those who see value in their products.
For me, I like things to "just work" rather than spend countless hours tinkering with a problem so I can focus on the job I'm supposed to be doing - helps me 'yak shave'! I also feel like it works more reliably, possibly due to tight integration between software & hardware, but that could just be me.
I like things to "just work"
Yes I think this is the key word here. In a large budget production, time can be very expensive, and people need this ability to just sit down & work.
A hallmark of good design, is the item itself almost disappears, meaning it is always there ready to function when needed, and to be out of the way and trouble free when work has stopped.
I imagine the Mac Pro being left on 24/7 year after year ready to be used instantly at any moment, and when it breaks, instead of risking more delays and issues within time constraints by fixing it (possible further trouble-shooting) the whole thing is thrown out and a brand new one purchased to take its place.
Most likely they will have 2 or 3 of them side by side, just incase something goes wrong, so they can continue working without delaying production.
I like things to "just work"
Lol. In a place I worked, them macs had windows installed on them and kept failing…
@MrBear: Hi yes only referring to ‘Mac Pro’ as to stay on topic. I am sure there are other ‘pre-built’ professional systems with names normal consumers are clueless to (most likely similar in price as well).
In any case their workload & uses are completely different to ‘computers’ that consumers know.
In a similar way to how a ‘server’ serves a different purpose to a personal computer.
For me, I like things to "just work"
I think it would need to do more than "just work" for it to be charging that price. I expect a lot more than that.
@Hybroid: Sure, I pretty much agree with all that, I just had a go at getting close specs for the lols. It's solidly in the "professional" segment, not even "prosumer". Artists/editors for big budget movies/games would be pretty much the target market.
edit: I should add that it's still a joke of a machine for anyone with real computing requirements, who will be connecting to a cluster of rackmount servers ;)
@dealsucker: Good write up, fairly reserved in their verdict. Surprised at equivalently specced beasts from Dell ($6,000+ US and HP ($9,000+ USD)!
In a corporate environment custom pc's aren't a thing.
No, they are usually Dell laptops.
Only Now? This has always been their go to market strategy.
I work in IT so I can say that all the 2013 Mac Pro's I've seen are still regularly used and work very well in 2019 with the latest MacOS Mojave. They are likely to work well with the next iOS, 10.15 Catalina. On the other hand, every single high-performance Windows desktop that i've seen that was purchased in 2013 (from HP, Dell, Acer), they all either have driver issues with windows 10, other performance issues or some sort of hardware failure.
For a Mac pro to still be of high use nearly 6 years later, and to have a much higher resale value makes more sense from a business perspective. If you feel as a home user that you really need the spec's of a new mac pro then try doing some freelance work with it and claim it as a deduction. You'll probably still be using it 6 years later also.
2013 Mac Pro was a commercial failure, full of small issues to do with the redesign. Also it hedged its bets on GPU when the CPU is more important today for mac users.
Apple did however repair those bugs
I have never seen driver issues in Windows 10 with any of these old machines. I didn't even know driver issues were still a thing in Windows these days.
I've seen hundreds of driver issues for older desktops and laptops with Windows 10 in national wide-area networks.
My old desktop is i5 750 and had no issues upgrading to win 10, but don't doubt there would be some issues across large fleet of machines.
Most troubles we had upgrading work machines was bios needing an update
@Gandalf the Thrifty: Edit: Retracted. Thought you meant a particular PC model, not a processor model
The internal speaker in my Alienware laptop isn’t compatible with win10. Sound works on every other audio output. It works fine on windows 7. My previous XPS laptop had driver issues with windows 8. The corporate hp desktops at work aren’t windows 10 friendly, although they are much older.
So yeah, unfortunately drivers are still a thing.
Source: ran an it department with 2500 clients for several years until apr.
That's funny, I never have driver issues in my machines from 2003 on Linux ;)
"EVERY SINGLE 2013 HIGH PERFORMANCE WINDOWS MACHINE HAS DRIVER ISSUES"
Lies!!!!
You do English good, mate? Or are you perhaps an editor for A Current Affair or Married at First Sight? /sarcasm
I said "Every single 2013 high performance windows desktop THAT I'VE SEEN". Yes, there would be some that are 100% compatible with Windows 10 but from my experience with various Dell, HP and Acer models supplied to corporate I haven't seen any that are 100% compatible.
lmao what a crock of shit. Windows 10 will work on shit from 2010 or earlier mate.
I never said it didn't work. For example, Windows 10 will load on Dell Optiplex 750, 755, & 760 (all pre-2010), but will have driver or major performance issues if you try. HP also don't have Windows 10 drivers for many of their older corporate models, so even though you can still use Windows 10 on them you're still left with a machine with lots of device issues.
Hey mate,sorry. I just refurbish pc's. I find that heaps of 2013 systems still run decently and have life left in them. :-)
For instance i did a hp core 2 duo era workstation. Ran really lovely with windows 10 even though pretty old.
Also, Mac Pro models lifespans with the latest operating systems are limited. Only late 2013 onwards supports mojave, and some 2010 and 2012 systems.
So dont think its super valid to knock pcs on drivers
Longevity of powerful computers is kind of irrelevant. It doesn't make much sense for a business to buy incredibly powerful machines and plan to use them for the next 6 years. Anyone who can justify the cost now will probably have a hard time delaying upgrades later.
In 6 years these will all end up offloaded to small businesses and home users who need something for Word.
Are Apple Just Taking Piss Now?
What do you mean now? Apple always has had crazy pricing on the mac pros etc.
Do you want it for half the price?
Wait one year and then buy it second hand.
Cheers :P
Do you want it for half the price?
Wait one year and then buy it second hand.
I love you Apple haters. The 2013v refurbished still sells for thousands of dollars. Who are you kidding?
Actually I love Apple as I have several Windows and Apple units.
That is the law of electronics and consumables … they depreciate … and depending supply vs demand & specifications.
Usually top-ended spec'ed units are very hard to sell, as the seller wants top dollar for it second hand, whilst the next gen has been released.
So, to answer your question, no I am not kidding.
Here is an example considering that you are mentioning 2013 spec machine
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/keilor/desktops/cheap-apple-…
"Original Purchase Price $2,899.00"
"Today's price $799"
Have a nice day :P
That's a late 2013 model selling for $799. Six years after it was released. How much would it have sold for a year after release?
Also, that's an iMac you've listed. I was talking about a Mac Pro (as in, relating to the Mac Pro in the title of this post). Here's the first example pulled from Google.
Apologies for assuming you were an Apple hater, I thought you had the hallmarks, lmao.
@ThithLord: OK, then considering that you are talking about Mac Pro's, here is another example
HN: https://www.harveynorman.com.au/apple-macbook-pro-15-4-inch-…
$4099
Gumtree: https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/balwyn/laptops/2018-macbook-…
$2400
Well, it is 2018 model sealed BNIB according to the seller (1 year old) and nearly half price.
Possibly can buy it cheaper with negotiation
Cheers :P
@darrynj: Hi Darryn,
They are Mac Pro's.
The main crux of the discussion was primarily based on the depreciation cost, where @ ThithLord states that prices don't drop substantially for Apple mac pros and generally it doesn't compared to Windows machines.
However my example above, proves otherwise.
Btw, I provided the wrong Gumtree link above.
Here it is whilst it lasts: https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/st-albans/laptops/macbook-pr…
Cheers
@vinni9284: Wrong gumtree link:
Here it is: https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/st-albans/laptops/macbook-pr…
Cheers
@vinni9284: Dude, "Mac Pro" and "MacBook Pro" spell and pronounce their names differently because they are different things. This thread is about the new Mac Pro. MacBook Pro laptops are irrelevant to the conversation. You might as well link to iPhones.
[Edit] I just checked your links and the new laptop you showed has much higher specs than the second-hand one, so the comparison is also irrelevant
@vinni9284: Dude, the one's 13 inch and the other is 15inch! How further and ridiculous do you want to see yourself trying to prove a non existent point?
@dealsucker: Check the second link i posted below the original in error
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/st-albans/laptops/macbook-pr…
@dealsucker: Ok, it is nearly Apples for Apples .. pardon the pun lol!
You can succinctly postulate that even Apple's exorbitant RRP price Brand New also gets smashed second hand … and even after one year!
Edit: How expensive is to buy a 512GB SSD from MSY and the like?
Open the back and slap it in .. and save heaps
:P
@vinni9284: If you were comparing apples for apples, it lost just under a quarter of it’s value, after a year or more… got your answer in the end :-p
@vinni9284: You can't upgrade the storage on a 2018 macbook pro, it is soldered to the motherboard. What you buy from Apple is what you're stuck with. Likewise, you can't upgrade the CPU (did you think no-one noticed that your more expensive example also had the higher CPU option?)
Edit - typos and less insulting
@vinni9284: You have compared a 15inch macbook pro vs a 13inch macbook pro….
And the 2nd, 13inch, is 2750, not 2400…
How are you getting this information so wrong?
They hold their value, not like PC stuff at all.
This year I found a broken G5 (2006 model) that had factory water cooling (in 2006!). I sold it on Ebay for $350. Any other PC would be worthless.
I'm a PC guy but I appreciated the quality and design of that system.
Who do you use for freight on your eBay sales?
It's not a home PC. Mac Pro - it's in the fricken name, matey. It's not aimed at the casual consumer. The spec's and design of this machine are like answered prayers for a lot of the tech world who wanted a new Mac Pro. Of course, a lot of people will baulk at the price, that's a given. I, personally, wouldn't have the foggiest what I'd do with such a machine. Again, it isn't aimed at users like myself.
So no consumer should buy a MacBook Pro or an iPad Pro either?
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I said it isn't aimed at the casual consumer. That's all I said.
You also said it's in the fricken name hence my comment.
@Gandalf the Thrifty: No home consumer should need a MacBook Pro or an iPad Pro either (specifically the iPad Pro)
If they can afford it, by all means… The pro range are exactly that. The cost of the equipment is part of doing business.
rubbish. Casual consumers can build the same machine for half the price. If anything, pros are for casual consumers who dont know how to build a pc and do simple research on pc parts.
If they did, they wouldnt fall for apples marketing and pay double the price.
At the end of the day, apple can only put into their computers parts that amd/intel/nvidia make….which means the consumer can match them.
/thread.
The spec you get for that $8600 AUD is pretty shit. A 8 core Xeon W, 32GB ECC RAM, 256GB SSD, Raedon Pro 580X. You can buy a HP workstation with similar specs but with a nVidia P4000 for literally half that cost.
What's more offensive is the $999 USD optional stand for the new $5000 USD "Pro Display XDR" standard glass monitor. If you want to use a standard VESA mount that's an optional $200 USD adaptor too.
Does that HP workstation have the ability to run 1.5TB of memory? Once you account for the MoBo and the PSU set up in the Mac Pro, the gap narrows (or disappears altogether).
It wouldn't. Assuming Rockets was looking at a Z6, they max out at 768GB when 2 CPUs are installed (and the extra cost inherent in adding that second CPU is not insignificant)
A Z8 would be a fairer comparison and they are pushing similar prices to the Mac
This of course depends on whether you need that capacity - if you do, then the Mac isn't bad value.
If you don't need anywhere near it, and you can run Windows, then there will be cheaper HP/Lenovo/Dell options
Somehow I doubt corporations will be looking at the opinions of PC ricers on Ozbargain for their decision making and the Mac will sell in the niche markets where its clearly aimed.
Not sure if it can run 1.5TB of RAM but I know the dual Xeon Z8 workstation that supports 3TB of RAM is still cheaper than the base Mac Pro at $6K. All Z series machines come with a 1KW PSU. The cost difference between a 1000W Titanium PSU and a 1500W is less than $100. THe Mac Pro will have an extremely expensive main board because of it's use of the proprietary use of the MPX slots.
The Mac Pro is targeted at professionals who use these machines to make a living in their businesses. Many of them can get tax deductions. Also time is money for many of these professionals so time saved in their workloads with these updated components (compared to the trashcan POS they used to sell) is worth it for many of them.
Apple is a business and, like any other business, will charge as much as they can to ensure their large margins remain intact. It is not in their best interests to reduce their Mac Pro prices to gain the approval of Ozbargainers! That said, the $999 USD stand for the monitor (the new 6K monitor does not come with a stand at all) is just Apple taking the piss
Yes I think this computer is for professionals (editing commercials / films etc) while the director is sitting behind them. More of a industrial ‘workhorse’ than a super-fast personal home computer.
Seems Apple has more contempt for their customers than the PCMR
Can you show me a monitor with similar specs at a cheaper price?
That monitor is aimed at the media production market that needs reliable, well calibrated reference monitors, which are - surprise! - very, very pricey.
For everybody else, Apple recommends the LG Ultrafine monitors, not these.
$1000 USD for a monitor stand, seriously? A freaking stand cost more than most monitors that happen to include a stand.
I'm not alone, media companies are making fun of it too, rightly so
https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/04/apple-pro-display-xdr-st…
I can agree the stand is a bit of a joke and seems like typical Jony Ive wankery, but I think the monitor's price is justified.
@lint: Not sure what good workstation monitors cost. I know they're expensive but not 5k USD expensive. But the stand is a big FU to their customers.
$6k PC + 5k monitor + 1k stand = $12k USD ($17k AUD) is crazy town pricing for a workstation IMO
@Bid Sniper: It's a reference monitor and it's actually a lot cheaper compared to other reference monitors that range from $20-40k.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/professionalvideo/Ntt/HDR…
Macs have always been this expensive once you option them up with all the added specs. This is not news unfortunately. I guess they are just starting the base price higher this time so no low spec option.
The target market for a Mac Pro is a professional video editor etc. So not a consumer product.