I will answer all your questions relating to the building industry.
Today's poll is what house would you go for.
[AMA] Construction Estimator, Specifically New Homes
Korban Dallas on 04/05/2019 - 12:32
Last edited 04/05/2019 - 12:33
Last edited 04/05/2019 - 12:33
Poll Options
- 0Dual Occupancy
- 2Fully Renovated
- 4Renovator
- 7Knock Down Rebuild
- 8Double Storey
- 9Acreage
- 10Old House in Established Suburb
closed Comments
Cost
Don't disagree with you, but that's too simplistic an answer.
You are talking about initial purchase cost. Surely 'whole life cost' should be the true cost?
My old house in the UK had uPVC double glazing fitted about 39 years ago. Still looks almost new. Zero upkeep (paint). 39 years of heating savings. It makes sense. If those windows had been single glazed, or timber framed or cheap nasty aluminium frames, they would have already have been replaced….
Double glazing is used when a high rw rating is required in habitable rooms. Might be near an airport,train line. It is more expensive about 3x as much.
There are some tinting options that have good thermal properties. These are around 30% extra. But do zero for acoustics.
Biggest bang for your buck is anticon and R3.0 ceiling batts. As well as blockout roller blinds recessed in.
This is a luxury no one goes for. Due to cost as most are at max budget and its an invisible upgrade.
They do the minimum for insulation and get ducted air.
I am hoping to build soon.
I would LOVE to have DG - but the build is already pushing our budget so I just don't see how we can fit it in the plan.@Almost Banned: There is a bolt on retrofit option too. Check this out. https://www.magnetite.com.au/
Im about to sign a construction contract for a new double storey home to be built where my old home was demoed. We had a designer design it, and then got the engineering, energy assessment done by our professionals. What would you be looking out for when signing a HIA construction contract (or potentially before that). This is in WA.
We have done a few KDRs. It's good you got engineering. That means you have a soil test. Is it an M Class or H1? Piers required? Check what the soil test is and what you are getting in the contract.
Biggest trap is under the ground. On brownfield sites. Could be cavities, concrete or landfill. All potential unexpected costs. There are some good builders which have a lot of inclusions however, some dodgy ones out there.
Biggest traps might be:
- Overhead power provision
- no PS for piers and slab types
- no PS for bushfire
- no Temporary fencing
- Removal, export or import of fill can be costly. Ensure there are some allowances if not a flat block.
- no driveway
- no landscaping
- no allowances for retaining walls
- check lead in allowances, water, gas, electrical, sewer, stormwater
- have a buffer, sometimes there will be extra costs.Make sure you read what is in your contract, no one does. If something is missing ask questions and don't sign it. Something is a little wordy or vague get them to amend it.
I recommend going a little overboard with insulation. Ducted A/C, Solar, heat pump or Apricius, fans in rooms. Also given electric cars are going to be a thing, make a provision in the garage. Just has to be a circuit to meter box and wall plate for now. Might want to upgrade to 3 phase but some electric vehicles only require single.
Get every promise in writing. Email is best. Watch out for sales. They are there to sell and are not the most knowledgeable when it comes to building. Better off dealing with an estimator, director or supervisor. Check the plans, make sure everything relates to one another.
Just wanted to say this is spot on. I'm just halfway through a build (ended up owner builder) and looking back at the quotes I was getting from builders these are exactly the things that would have ended up costing a lot more than the "fixed price" quote.
Just to add, I would suggest getting the site works quoted by a couple of companies and then compare that to what was allocated in the builder's quote.
Also check engineering. Ensure you have structural steel allowed for if needed. If the design is complex could be a few k to 25k.
I want to demolish and build a new house on 1.5acre approx. How do I start? Find an architect vs builder first. Any tips
Get a quote for demolishing and site works / retaining if you want a single level home.
Do some homework get some quotes.
Check for asbestos. Check to see if three phase required if long lead in in addition, future shed and pool. Plenty of builders have acreage plans that are standard. Also a lot on file. E.g other houses they have built.
Architects tend to build things that are expensive. It's also expensive. I suggest get a drafter as they can design to meet your needs and budget as they work closely with builders,plans are also easier to import than architects too as your builder of choice will have to get it redrafted.
Or go through a builder if you are happy to design it with their input and your needs. Just ensure you have ownership of the plans. You don't want to get sued by a builder who you walked away from. Get 3 to 4 quotes and try to compare apples with apples.
You also can't use a plan from a builder and go to another one.
Check if HSTP, rainwater tank or rubble pit is required if there is no town sewer or water. This can easily add 20k to your build.
Also accessibility e.g. Driveway or all weather access roads can be expensive. Might need special cranes and vehicles if the terrain is bad.
Also the 1:4 rule. Driveway cannot be any steeper than this. Might have to raise or drop your slab or have a windy driveway.
How 'flat' does a site have to be to avoid extra costs?
Is a gentle slope - say 60cm over 18m going to be a problem?Measure the pad diagonally. Most builders offer 0-500 as standard. It's a few hundred extra to go from 501 to 750 Not the end of the world. However, check the block next door. If there is a harsh drop or rise you might need a drop edge beam or retaining.
Ask the designer or builder if it's equal cut and fill and if they are expecting the need to import or export fill / cut.
How much consideration is given to the effect on neighbours of vibration soil compaction?
A letter should be given in person or in the mailbox of the potentially affected neighbours. Also when you need to go on their block for some reason. The supervisor should coordinate. Most people are at work anyway but there could be some where it might impact on someone dramatically. E.g newborn. Can work around people if required if they are a decent and considerate builder.
What range would a project home builders $/m2 cost be for a budget package? ie. years ago when I had a project home built I heard someone at the builders office talking about the home being $x per m2 and their margin was another $x.
Depends where you build and the size. The smaller the house the more it is in m2 compared to larger homes. No garage also makes the m2 go up.
Builders typically work on 18 to 30 % margin. With 20 % being common. Generally higher the margins the more risk and complex. This 30% typically dwindles down very quickly and the builder might end up at 25% if he is lucky.
It's safe to say most people will fall around the 20% range.
Ensure that your home is fully costed by an estimator. Sales people give off the cuff m2 rates which can vary wildly.
Some builders start at like 600 or 700 p/m2 but that includes nothing. Not even paint or a kitchen. Compare apples with apples.
Realistically for a turn key package, move in ready you are looking at roughly:
1100 p/m2 to 1350 p/m2 for 265m2 to 200m2 respectively.
Driveway, air, high ceilings, appliances, landscaping. Etc.
2 stories roughly 1350 to 1500 p/m2. Million dollar architect high end homes with everything you can think of 1500 to 2200.
If your garage, porch and patio are higher ratio this also brings the m2 rate down.
Thank you for your AMA. I find this topic very interesting, hope you dont mind the detailed queries.
When pricing a job does the process differ between a project home or a custom design? i.e. are all project home prices reasonably set and you just add the extras the client wants or do you have to price it all from scratch.
How do you price a job? do you rate every element at known market rates? or do you go out to market and have trades quote on specific elements with lump sums? if it is a mix, which trades are the biggest price risk that you will get firmed up via quotes?
If you did get quotes, what would happen if you had a hit rate of say 1 win in 10 tenders, and you had your trades quoting every one and you werent winning the jobs, would they just leave and help someone else or stop quoting for you.
Excluding things like home warranty, insurances, overheads, what % margin would you work on to remain competitive but also not go broke considering the 6 year liabilities home builders have on them.
How do you price preliminaries such as labour, project manager, site manager? do you price them in for the project duration in full or just as a percentage of their time? or is this kept separate to the projects costing and you dont see it? how is it structured?
How much bearing does a construction methodology have on your price, or is this not really considered due to small construction timelines? for example, street access, da conditons, working at heights etc.
When pricing a job does the process differ between a project home or a custom design? i.e. are all project home prices reasonably set and you just add the extras the client wants or do you have to price it all from scratch.
With a project / standard design home, everything is costed and updated when there are price rises (from suppliers/contractors). Essentially with all the standard spec/inclusions. Custom designs also get fully costed, this can take between 1 day to 2 weeks to estimate depending on the complexity. Most of this time is waiting for engineering and costings for frame and truss and other things. However, estimators do have rates that generally are pretty close to the actual mark.
I can't speak for all builders though. Some will guess the price of the project based on other houses they have built. It's risky and that is why a lot of builders go bust. It is important for us to go over all the documentation to ensure we haven't missed anything. Bigger builders can sometimes pick and choose their clients (e.g. demanding clients and/or build) and tend to price them out and they move on to other builders more willing.
More input from the customer is required and the pre-construction process tends to be a little longer. A lot of drafting. For clients with very intensive and complex custom designs it is very draining for the sales, pre and construction team, you can't beat a small or medium-sized builder that has been around for a while. They really help get you through the process.
How do you price a job? do you rate every element at known market rates? or do you go out to market and have trades quote on specific elements with lump sums? if it is a mix, which trades are the biggest price risk that you will get firmed up via quotes?
Most of the rates we set with our trades. These are all broken down so it is easily explained. We are in control of costings. Sometimes there is something unusual, missed or required. The supervisor will issue a manual order. Quotes we generally get from our contractors are:
- Frame and Truss
- Plastering
- HSTP
- Roofing
- Windows
- Stairs
- Excavation (if it is outside pricing: acreage, large cut and fill, split level etc)We have rates and pricing for the above but can there could be +or- 2k difference. I can't say there is much risk. Only when we do something for the first time. E.g: Carpenters can be unsure, installation can vary / waste factors too low. E.g estimated 10% but 16% was required. Complex designs with steel can also blow things out as more engineering might be required to make the design work.
If you did get quotes, what would happen if you had a hit rate of say 1 win in 10 tenders, and you had your trades quoting every one and you werent winning the jobs, would they just leave and help someone else or stop quoting for you.
A good small to medium builder would literally win between 1:2 or 1:4 jobs they quote. Keep in mind some builders tender, better ones fully estimate. There is a big difference.
Most trades are close. Some companies have agreements in place with only 1 or 2 contractors. This helps with loyalty. For us, having two with some trades can help keep pricing in check and provide allegiance at the same time. If they were losing 9/10 jobs they wouldn't care about us and if a builder did that to a trade, shows we didn't care about them either. Should also note we don't always choose the cheapest. There is a balance in terms of capability and price.
Excluding things like home warranty, insurances, overheads, what % margin would you work on to remain competitive but also not go broke considering the 6 year liabilities home builders have on them.
We do have maintenance costings into each build. In QLD there is the QBCC Insurance Premium, QLeave. I couldn't give you a % but keep in mind all the wages, overheads, rents, insurances, commission and some unexpected costs gets taken from the profit margin. The builder isn't banking that 20% that is for sure. Lucky perhaps with 10% of that
How do you price preliminaries such as labour, project manager, site manager? do you price them in for the project duration in full or just as a percentage of their time? or is this kept separate to the projects costing and you dont see it? how is it structured?
This isn't costed, unless it is a complex build requiring a dedicated site manager 5 days of the week. Again, all wages are technically taken from the profit margin. Some builders might be different though, if they did there profit margin might end up being like 10%
How much bearing does a construction methodology have on your price, or is this not really considered due to small construction timelines? for example, street access, da conditons, working at heights etc.
Planning is very important, everyone gets on board, Plans are checked and questions answered as to how are we going to do that. Most houses are built the same way. Unless requested by the customer otherwise.
On smaller / easy jobs we do not have invest as much time but we do thoroughly check.
Thanks heaps for the detailed response. Appreciated !!!!
It's good insight for me, I work in commercial and have always seen residential as a murky area that I don't understand.
Early stages of planning to build a house. Wife would love to go 2 stories but as we have a large property I’d rather just build out to increase the sqm. I’d assume it’d be more cost effective to build out rather than up? And for same sqm roughly how much difference? (Yes I know how long is a piece of string…)
2nd question brick veneer vs double brick vs wood? What’s your thoughts in terms of price but also pros/cons of each if you feel qualified to give the answer.
TIA
I did list some prices above. Much cheaper to build on one level. No need for scaffolding and cheaper rates for building. Do you have a nice view? Want to utilise more land?
I have never estimated a double brick home unless its a section of wall such as a patio wall which generally we build out of 200 series corefill block and 70mm stud wall. If you wanted double brick, I would suggest just 200 series and a 70mm frame.
Structural Insulated panels are becoming a thing. A lot of builders use rendered foamboard in brickwork over windows and doors as infills. On two storeys entire sections can be made from foam.
A lot of Hamptons homes use a 90mm stud frame and wall batts. I feel this is too thin, I'd prefer brick and some sections cladded.
Another one… lucky enough to have a very large city property (~11,000sqm)
I want to put a basketball court on it. Inside court, wood flooring, Baseline to just above 3 point line. Then I’d likely have some concreted flooring area for other equipment. What do you think would be the best way to build it? Large concrete industrial type panels? Tin/metal like the recreation centers are in the community? Or in some other style?
Obviously would need a relatively high roof, would need to be watertight and try to control how much dust/dirt get inside. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Not sure on the cost difference but precast concrete panels would be the way to go. Check out Insulated Roofing Panels and SIPs http://bondor.com.au/insulated-panel-applications/sport-cult… for another alternative I would seriously look into.
For a standard house what is cost of building materials only as a percentage of the total cost approximately ?
For example I estimate that the cost of concrete plus reo for a driveway would be about 10% of the average contractor price.This is a really good question that I do not know the answer to. For the entire BOQ I am not 100% sure. But tilers get over 50%, bricklayers around 40% if you compare trade to materials. Electricians make a killing.
How much does a residential estimator make and what qualifications are required?
Depends on the area but average about 85 to 90k, rare for 120k. Starting around 60k.
No qualifications required but a good knowledge of the industry and construction processes. Carpenters sometimes move into the field.
Last year and the year before there was extremely high demand. Dropping off a bit now.
Need to be accurate and have high attention to detail.
In saying that, it's a job where you learn on the job. If you want to be one you certainly could be. There are other perks like getting your house built at pretty much cost price and discounts on building materials if your into renos.
Thanks!
Why isn't double glazing used more?