Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond. I have some things to consider and your comments have been helpful
Working a 40 Hour Week
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@hybridex: 100k pa at 1.5PQE? That seems completely at odds with Hays' and Hudson's legal salary guides. And I'd imagine at the top tier level that you'd be forever working yourself almost to death (ie 80 hour weeks, most weeks). The 9-6 that the OP complains of sounds like a dream, but I query whether in the legal industry that's really only going to happen in the government and community sectors.
Huge huge sympathies. Have you thought about jumping ship to the banking sector? If you're having thoughts about ending it all please please consider an exit to something else that will utilise all that knowledge and expertise you have that isn't quite so archaic. I know that Westpac has made huge gains in this area - men get fully paid parental leave of 12 weeks if they're the primary carer and it can follow on from the mothers when she returns to work etc. Your work isn't worth your life. Hang in there.
Wow did you say Law ? I'm getting into Law to make more money not less with longer hours
Then I hope you have lot of HDs and ECs at uni
yeh im studying my ass off but i'm still ten years behind :)
You'll earn a lot by not working for others when you open your own firm.
But first you have to have your own client base.
If you don't have people skills to pull clients then tough luck it is.
Have you tried meal prepping on Sundays? Both lunch and dinner? Could help?
You know that transition from university to full time work and all that goes with it is a huge shock to the system. That first year out is demoralising and the commute just feels soul destroying. And you feel like it's forever. It's been a long time since I finished university now and since then I've worked a huge range - from 20 hour weeks up to 100+ hours (and being paid for less than half of that), but none of it has ever been as challenging or as lonely as that first year out of uni. There's this massive shift from having a lot of free personal time to feeling like you have none at all, and feeling like you're going to be a wage slave with no free time at all forever. And while there's an element of truth in that, it's also not the case.
My advice to you is to let everyone at work get to know you. I think it's so hard in corporate Australia because there's this sense of everyone always looking over their shoulders and not being very trusting of each other, but if you can develop a really good relationship with the people in your team, work stops being so much of a chore. If you can look forward to going to work because of the people you work with, as well as the work you do then you've won. The caveat to that is that it takes a really long time, because when you finish university you really don't know who you are so you don't know who 'your people' are. Use this time to gain experience, figure out who you are, see if the people you're working with are your people, and when it comes time to look for another job, go to interviews and see how well you click with the people interviewing you and try to really go for the jobs where you get along well with the interviewers because that's probably the right place for you.
As for the hours, ah, they what they are. It's hard at first. If there is any possible way you can move closer to work, or get a car and drive, then I can't stress enough the importance of reducing your commute for your mental health. If that's not possible then get into the audiobooks and podcasts on the way there so you can check out of thinking about work. An hour lunchbreak is a really long time so if everyone is hanging around until 6pm because of this hour, I'd use half of that time to exercise. I don't really get a lunch break where I work but if I had that amount of time I would get exercise in because doing it before or after work is exhausting. And on the weekend, try really hard not to decompensate on the couch all day (although you might at first), organise lunch or dinner with friends, get outside and spend your money on the things that interest you. Don't live between work and your computer at home, it twists you up and makes you unhappy. (These are all things I wish someone had of told me back then).
Maybe you're absolutely fine and didn't need all of that, but just in case all of this is getting you down, I hope that helps.
If you are a “salary” worker with the expectation that you pick up additional hours here and there as needed, then that is normal and you should expect to do so.
But if you’re doing additional hours on a ROUTINE basis, you are getting ripped off.
As for what to do about it: entirely up to you. Just because you have “rights” doesn’t mean exercising those rights is going to be fun for you. Be that getting bad references or whatever.
I would say that you should only fight these things when you are “secure”: you are outside a probationary period and you aren’t relying on maintaining a good reputation.
When that’s the case: just go home!! If you’ve done your reasonable hours, you have nothing to fear except a few snide remarks in the tea room.
But whilst that’s not the case, just work it. It won’t kill you. You’re in the same boat as everyone else.
Welcome to the world of Accounting & Finance. As for any industry if you really want to progress your career and climb the corporate ladder you have to expect to work countless hours over time and not be paid for it.
A lot of great comments in this thread.
I don't want to repeat what everyone said, but unfortunately that's just the reality of working on salary in the private sector. It will depend heavily on the work culture too as not all places of employment are like this, but a lot are.
Also, this isn't related to your initial enquiry but since this is your first job out of uni, you NEED to start forming good habits and start being financially savvy. Your future self with thank you for this. Start putting aside a percentage of your salary (e.g. 10%) in a separate savings account and learn to live off the rest. Even if you're not saving for anything in particular, it's a good start to an emergency fund, or you may decide down the line you want to invest it or use it as a deposit for your own place. Keep doing it even when your salary increases.
Also, this isn't related to your initial enquiry but since this is your first job out of uni, you NEED to start forming good habits and start being financially savvy.
I agree. Lots of people succumb to lifestyle creep once they start earning more. I've seen it with friends and some of these people actually work in funds management (so you'd think they'd be somewhat financially savvy). I've also succumbed to it myself in the past and it's not pleasant when you see that although you have saved, you could have saved a lot more if you didn't splash your cash around. OP could also salary sacrifice 5% of their pay to super and they would never really even notice it, but it'd compound over time and pay off huge when they can access their super.
So this. Read The Barefoot Investor ASAP.
Welcome to life.
I'm guessing it was not university graduates who negged me.
If you whinge about reasonable overtime allowances only a month into a new graduate role out of uni then you won't be progressing very far (or quickly) in that organisation.
I am sorry that people have not shown you a lot of sympathy and support in your life. It's something that's hard to give when you've clearly never received it.
Wait till you do month end…One thing that i hated about working in finance was month end and year end. Some months could be ok but when hits the fn fan you are up for a lot of unpaid overtime
$19 an hour is a joke. Milk the work experience for what it is and move on.
Play their game for 6 months, then start walking out at 5pm. That's what I do, walk out at 5pm.
I can't believe how many people are telling you to suck it up on here. Depending on if you're salary or full time you have every right to speak up. Salary, no. Full time then yes you should speak up. It's simple. Those who don't speak up never get promoted as they have no backbone. If you're meant to be payed for those hours you should at least pose the question. Initially asking about pay rate was hard but you're there for that reason. I highly recommend you ask if you're a full time worker because you deserve a simple answer. I've had many jobs in my field and I now ask for what I'm worth and I get it. Because I ask. I hope this helps op, go get em.
I hate this is the norm in office environments and it's because people suck it up and don't say anything. People in my current project work until 7/8pm regularly. I don't mind an exception here or there but not as a regular thing. I do my hours, pack up and leave after my contracted hours. No one has said a word to me.
Generally people quickly figure out whether you have a backbone or you're willing to accept bullshit. If you do then they will keep flinging it.
Generally people quickly figure out whether you have a backbone or you're willing to accept bullshit. If you do then they will keep flinging it.
It's been shown in studies that people high in agreeableness can actually earn less over the span of their career as well as other things, such as missing out on promotions (i.e. what Stone89 alluded to). It's something I'm trying to work on myself (i.e. being less agreeable).
OP is on probation though, I'd probably wait out 6 months before I said anything.
Whilst I do agree with some points of your post (i.e. that it's important to speak up or at least ask about it) I think you should consider that OP is a newbie. Whilst you yourself may know your worth and ask for what you know you deserve, the OP just graduated and may not have the skills or experience to start questioning their pay or asking for pay increases (depending on their experience of course, maybe they were a superstar student who worked a few internships and helped contribute to some amazing projects in large national/multinational organisations). OP said they take 1 hour breaks, they could easily cut back on break time and finish at 5:30 using that as a a justification for leaving on time and if people have an issue with that then I'd be questioning the culture at the firm.
I also think that perspective plays a large role. You yourself have experience and have had "many jobs" in your field, but OP isn't you. Not everyone is lucky enough to get a job in the field they studied in at uni (especially in this day and age where a lot of people go to uni, and heaps of international students also attend Australian unis — and many of them try to stay after graduating which could further increase competition for jobs), so IMO the OP should consider themselves pretty damn lucky to be in the situation they are in even if it isn't 100% pleasant. They're in a position where they're getting relevant and probably valuable experience that will help their career. There are plenty of people who graduate out there who are unable to find work right away and keep working their retail or hospitality job. Not only that but there are people who don't end up landing graduate roles and then go back to study a masters right after their bachelor's in the hope that they will be more marketable (which is actually a really bad idea). OP could suck it up for 1-2 years and leave with good references and find a place closer to home or with higher pay, or both.
since you mentioned everyone else do the 9-6. Don't take any further steps, as a grad you don't want to stand out for the wrong reasons, i.e. questioning the culture or the norm in your workplace,
If you don't like it, then just get the first job experience and move on.
I work 60 - 70 hrs per week, no OT paid…
Good country this is.
Is that the norm though or is it a rare occurrence? Surely with that many hours you must be on 175k+ at least?
Not if you're an Uber driver :D
I'm doing these hours a lot lately too (it goes in waves). It is what it is. Not rare for a lot of people and at wages a hundred k lower than that number.
it depends if you want to keep your job and create a good rep for yourself or not.. if you want to get ahead in the rat race you have to put in the hard yards.
as for me, i refuse wasting my time in peak hour traffic (i could be working something more productive) so I find opportunities where i don't have to
If you are still on your probationary period, ride it out with a smile, when you have your review at the end of your probationary period mention that you don't mind working the extra hours for (helping the team, helping the company grow - insert reason here) but you believe that as the actual hours are longer than 9-5.30 and you output at your full potential all day and have achieved XYZ over that time, you believe a modest incremental payrise is a request worthy of management consideration.
All the people that:
A) Walked out at 5pm
B) Complained
C) Thought their payrate "was a joke"
D) Take longer lunches to compensateGenerally lose over the longer term. Sometimes they think they are winning, or smart and it may seem they are over the shorter term, but over time their quality of life will be worse than yours, even if they have an extra 15 mins on the couch each night.
Winners get pay rises (without asking for them), promotions are able to take time off for personal matters, appointments, family commitments without penalty. If they don't get these things, winners also move on, but take with them them the ethics and culture required to be successful in life.
Working the extra 30 mins in the job you have now, over the entirety of your life - you will personally win.
Eh, maybe. But conditions also depend on company and industry, and some are simply worse than others.
One of my early jobs was a semi-corporate environment where everyone up the chain of management seemed to be more miserable. They all started with uni internships and had become very used to working at least 8-7 every single day.
-The guy above me seemed to be constantly frustrated with PM and about to bursts, literally thumping his desk at times.
-His mid-level almost-40 year old manager would actually apologize to the team for leaving at 6.30 because he had an appointment with his new wife because it was the right time of the month for her to get pregnant. Although most days he would simply apologize to her for breaking their plans and keep working until 8 or so.
-The directors above him were more visibly alcoholic than most in the office, with seemingly their fair share of personal life issues. But at least they could leave earlier if they wanted, when they weren't taking clients out to regular dinners.This was at a big engineering consulting firm. Salaries were okay, but not amazing. Probably 200k at the top end. Other companies in the industry didn't seem much better. I once went for an interview at a smaller firm where the HR interviewer talked up their work-life balance. I mentioned that it'd be nice to leave before 7pm sometimes and the engineering manager interviewer laughed and said he hadn't left that early in months.
Seemed like a grim future, and an unrewarding ladder to start climbing. Though to be fair, some liked the work, some left and ended up at better companies.
I didn't have much interest in the work anyway, so I changed industries and in my new job would literally wake up and return home entirely within the office hours I used to do, for the same money, with less stress, in a different engineering field, on a different ladder.
LoL…
Only 2 additional hours + probation, yet, you have complained so much…
This means that you are working only for money and not for your passion, please consider quitting your job before it is too late, mate.I am also currently required to work 9-6, however, I usually arrive at office at 8.30 and walk out from office at 6.30. Why? Firstly, it is to beat the traffic. Secondly, I am also on probation and I feel that I am still on learning curve, especially the industry is relatively new for me. Even though, I am doing research, solving the business problems, I feel that I am also in learning curve so that's why I feel that spending 1-2 more hours A DAY is fine.
You should be grateful that you are given an opportunity to grow and gain experience. There are many people out there, who are probably willing to work 60-70 hours a week, but don't get a single chance.
BE GRATEFUL….
He isn't even getting payed $20 an hour. Not even $40k a year. That's a joke. Also, who is actually passionate about accounting?
An IT grad driving a taxi told me he didn't take an IT job because they offered $43k. He is making $45k driving a taxi.
Could always work casual sales in retail. More than $20 an hour but you've never get to six figures. Accountants in private sector listed company on close to or more than six figures are common.
If you want to keep your job just do the job otherwise look for another one that suits your wants.
I work 6-6 every day with 2hrs commute.
I Dont like it but we all have bills to pay.
You have the option to leave and find a better place and unfortunately much like people have said, it isn't fair. Work conditions are unfortunately dictated by employers and if you want to do well in the game you have to play it right. Work hard here for a few months, get a good reference and find a higher paying job in the same field.
Complain and you go down the path of wasting the opportunity of maximizing the value of your current position. Do this and you'll burn your bridges. Trust me, I've learnt the hard way and if I had to go back 10 years, it would be to make sure that you leave on a good note. If you truly hate the place you work at, that's fine - just find another job. You can always tell your future employer you left to progress yourself and that you wanted to take your career to the next step.
Weigh it up mate, is it worth it to throw up a fuss for 0.5/1 hour lost a day or to have a good reference and connections that may help you in future? As much as it sucks, that's what it all boils down to.
The ball is in your court.
Be grateful that you've got a job in your field!
Analysis of your performance every minute - how many minutes of work time did you waste on this thread?Always check your contract and really define the working hours condition and if you just curious, there's no harm in trying to leave at 5.30pm, why do you have to settle just coz everyone else is doing it?
At the risk of $19.20 an hour, I would test leaving on time and if I get called in then just say your reasoning, they not gonna fire you for leaving on time.
Suck it up princess. That's how white collar salary jobs work
Wait till you get smashed like at month end - you'll be begging for 9-6
I took the long hours gamble.. it paid off.. probably as it did for all the ozbragainers on 300k+
I like my job though, that definitely helps. Do you like your job?
These comments complaining about brainwashing young people into thinking unpaid OT is acceptable are the same people that will complain 20 years down the track when their career has gone nowhere and they wonder why. Wanting to get paid for an additional 2 hours while being a salaried employee who is just starting out in a professional services environment is indicative of the sense of entitlement. It's clearly not the right industry for you. If you don't want to do the job, someone else will and you could be replaced at the drop of a hat. Yes the firm benefits from your hard slog but so will you.
9 to 5. The dream.
Some good advice here but unfortunately not quite usable in real life. Things to note:
There is no chance to lodge unfair dismissal claim until you have worked minimal employment period (6 months (business with over 15 employees) / 1 year (business with less than 15 employees)), so they can sack you quite easily.
After that people that do not quite comply/stand for their rights/take excessive leave/… tend to be the first ones when it comes to being made redundant. Redundancy is hard to fight. FWC does not help much in redundancy cases.
Practically all professional services (accounting) firms are real slave drivers and pay very peanuts. Small ones in particularly prey on fresh graduates and immigrants. There is very little chance to build your career there (unless we are talking about BIG4)
My advice is:
- work hard to gain experience;
- do overtime;
- document any overtime (diary, phone calls, emails etc);
- search for new job opportunities;
Once you have found better job, hit them with a claim for unpaid overtime based on your records. 90% chances is that they will settle with you for at least 50% of your claim. Otherwise FWC will bend them over for the full amount
9-5 take it easy, there will be enough work to last you until well into your 80s.
Clock 50hr weeks now, get all the experience you can. Save up and retire early. I graduated on $40k. Was on $100k in 3 years.
What industry was that out of curiosity?
Accounting :')
Did a job in which a $100m is just a rounding error :D
If you're being paid minimum wage. Any over time is illegal. However your salary is likely above minimum wage, as a result, a manager can point out that you are being paid extra above minimum and the clause for you to work some extra time is ok.
If your company is a monopoly, then unionise it up. If not: look for work elsewhere. The others in a non monopoly company are either lazy/scared/etc and stayed. The smart ones left.
That helps give some context to the post, although all the replies helped to paint a picture of the original post.
The commute sounds like a pain in the ass. If I was OP and was desperate to leave at 5:30 pm I would start taking a half hour lunch break (helps justify leaving early) and get all the stuff I must complete finished off by the end of the day. That way you can say "well I took a half hour break and I've done everything I had to complete by today, so I'm done for the day".
Given that it's their first professional job though I personally would probably suck it up for a bit and be a "team player" to get some good references then leave after 1-2 years, maybe apply for graduate roles this year and next year. Not everyone is lucky enough to get a job right after uni, let alone get a job in the field they actually studied in. I'm sure someone else out there would jump at this opportunity with great zeal.
Sometimes you have to look beyond the expected and norm to get the results you really want.Dont be afraid to go against the grain. Long hours do not always equate to where you want to be. There are other answers out there and I have found mine. Take a look: www.jackie-quirk.com
It may not be for everyone but it doesn't hurt to be curious. Good luck in whatever you do just remember this is your life and you have the ultimate control.Reminds me of my old contact, 40 hour week with a salary that includes 'reasonable overtime' the 11 hour days 7-6 was expected by every level of management. (Supermarkets)
On topic, my wife started a new job, she was required to work 1 in 3 Saturdays in her contract, contacted fair work, she is paid above award which covers the Saturday, case closed.
I asked this exact same question on whirlpool - https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2713671 & https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/2737051
I ended up calling bullshit and left that job. In the end imo the gov needs to stop this crap
Every job I've had has required a certain amount of unpaid overtime. But when it came to me needing time off I wasn't ever docked any pay or required to use annual leave.
I needed a fair bit of time when I bought my first house for contracts, bank stuff, inspections etc. Then there's things like doctors appointments, picking up things from gumtree or online orders, solar panels getting fitted, NBN getting connected, etc all adds up.If your employer is happy to let you do things like that every now and then it's probably not worth taking it further.
Work in Finance myself.
Personally I start work at 9 and leave at 5 (regardless of what the people around me do). If the business and/or my boss doesn't like this approach then it's not going to work out anyway and we'll part ways. Life is wayyy too short and there's bigger priorities in life like family, personal interest, health/fitness, etc.
In the hours that I'm at work I give 110% in getting what I need done, and personally I hit a mental brick-wall at about 3/4pm in the afternoon where I'm not as switched on or productive so staying the extra time just wouldn't work it self out.
If there's a busy period I will definitely stay back and do what is required, like budgets during a week of September.
Best of luck finding yourself and a happy place mate.
“Reasonable additional hours” must be paid.
How that is paid is what confuses people.
If you are on salary then your salary package must cover for the extra hours.
To see if you are being remunerated fairly to do the additional hours required, you just need to know what your award rate of pay is.
Those that are on salary are usually being paid market rates over base award rates, and these rates are are usually above award enough to cover the additional hours (I’m not saying this is the case for the op).
To give an example, say your award says you base rate of pay is $20 per hour. Provided you worked 38hrs a week and none of those hours were outside the span of normal hours, you base pay could be as low as $760 per week ($39520pa).
Now if you were on a salary of $50,000 then your employer could have you do reasonable additional hours without paying you any more provided those hours didn’t caculate more than the difference between you roles base pay and your salary package. Keep in mind that the reasonable additional hours will be at the penalty rates of your award.
I hope that makes some sense.I’m pretty sure Fair work has a calculator for this on their website.
Thread closed per request, OP's issue is marked as resolved.
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@Shiny Mew: In the same boat here man… but that pay is just not even worth it for what it sounds like you have to put up with. At 1 PQE I'd definitely see if you can speak to some recruiters and scout the market, especially before EOFY when the market picks up so that you can give yourself a better shot. I'm just in the process of moving a top tier right now and there were plenty of opportunities available, not just at top tiers (I'm about 1.5 PQE), and the salary packages on offer are all 100k+. Lateral moves are the way to go in the job market - loyalty earns you nothing these days, both in terms of rem and other benefits.
I'm ok with long hours though, as long as my team is good. Sounds like the hours might need to be toned down for you - and those obvs also depend on the area of law you're in.