Uber has recently introduced American style tipping to their apps.
Tips are tax subsidies in disguise. The tip is from the rider’s taxed income.
Uber should be paying tax on their income They’re trying to avoid this by lower fare rates and insist riders tip the driver directly.
If the driver is happy with it, and the customer is also happy with it (tipping is optional), who's complaining?
I imagine the endgoal would be the customer pays more if they tip
Uber revenue/employee expense ratio improves
I always slip my drivers a fiver. That way Uber doesn't have to know about it.
Uber should be paying tax on their income
If you actually gave as shit about the largest businesses in the world avoiding tax you would cease to vote for the Labor and Liberal Parties who have turned Australia into an oligarchy where the wealthiest pay no tax because they control the country using their money.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-26/frijters-foster-battl…
Instead the brainwashed vegetables in this country vote to lose their own money by voting for a GST and the privatisation of everything.
I see your opinion piece and raise you an actual news article from the ABC:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-22/tax-paid-by-the-wealt…
the wealthiest bucket was responsible for 79 per cent of all personal income tax this year
(Each "bucket" is a quintile, or 20%, of Australian adults). As an aside, the second highest 20% pays 19% - breaking even.
Yeah, you read that right, the richest 20% of the Australian population effectively subsidizes the bottom 60%. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it.
waiting for the "abc is govt mouthpiece" comeback
.
I think it's partly the lack of stability/certainty of income, but also partly that people don't like to be held accountable or have to compete - because tips effectively (averaged, not necessarily on a table-by-table basis) allows servers to compete to provide better service and held accountable for bad service.
I've noticed a trend that some people don't like that much around here.
Ever heard of these things called supervisors, managers and customer complaints? Your argument is grasping at straws, there is no positive or benefit to tipping for anyone. It's a low, disgusting practice, only championed by low, disgusting, exploitative people.
I know plenty of friends who used to work in the service industry who'd disagree (because they made bank off of tips because they were good workers), but sure, you do you.
supervisors, managers and customer complaints
They also serve a similar function, what's your point?
HardlyCharly im not making an argument im just talking about my experience - it might not be the same as others… to say there is no benefit in tipping is ridiculously ignorant, tipping if appropriately done should theoretically benefit everyone except those that are lazy and poor workers.
I think you misunderstand tipping.
If you had tipping you would
What you don't understand is that this is the best system
If you don't like the job, quit. If the job is bad and nobody wants to work there, either the pay will increase, or the job will improve.
The only time this sometimes doesn't happen here are restaurants that take advantage of people on student visas who want to break their visa rules.
I'm not seeing what's wrong with this:
Not necessarily and I've heard that people who're good can often average higher rates of pay;
Yes, working hard for pay should be expected;
As long as it averages out, it should be fine - especially in hospitality, there are already times where the number of shifts can change from week to week;
Yes - generally people getting tips are people who're better at the job and you should be replaced.
I don't know if you're arguing against or for tipping - your points basically say that tipping leads to better and harder workers who're rewarded more appropriately for it.
Yes some people get a lot more, and some people get a lot less, which is a huge problem. Why should your coworker get more because they are more aggressive, flirt with customers etc?
So you want someone in a terrible job to work even harder just to get some extra money….
Tipping is horrible, I can only assume you don't know anyone who has worked in the USA in these conditions.
It's a service industry - they made the customer happier, that's them doing the job better.
Yes - that's every job: Work harder (or smarter), get paid more. Do you want employees to not be rewarded for working harder?
Okay, and? Personality is a big part of the service and hospitality industries. They're better at their job.
There's competition at every job level - yes, I want the best person in the job getting paid the most.
At the end of the day, you seem to be opposed to the idea of "someone who is better at the job getting paid more." Tell me how that makes sense.
I think you miss understand tipping?
Tipping gives staff incentive to work harder, having a flat wage restructure doesnt? How is our system better? it is only better for the rich?
Tipping only gives certain staff the ability to get more money while everyone else often gets the same pay, or less pay.
I think you need to do some more research on how its done in the USA. There are a lot of bad stories from people who just want to pay their bills.
@samfisher5986: That is fair - im not saying it is a superior or inferior system but for you to say we have it better in Australia is plan idiotic - do some research yourself ie 7/11 under paying staff, george calombaris not paying staff, coles asking staff to work 4 hours without pay all thing things have happened in the past 24 months…
I also know at least 15 people that work over-time and get little to no recognition matter of fact on average Australians do about $9500 worth of unpaid work a year from overtime/working back….
Australians also work some of the most hours a week compared to the rest of the world
how is our system superior?
We pay some of the highest taxes in the world?
Our Mps are the most over paid MPs in the world regarding to salary per-capita of people they represent?
Im know there are lots of issues we hear about in the USA but to say we have the better system is idiotic - the only thing Aus does better then the USA is health care and gun laws thats it but that is my opinion
@Trying2SaveABuck: What does tips, and employers doing illegal things have in common? Why are you bringing it up?
Tips don't solve overtime, most of the overtime jobs are not jobs where tips are possible.
Australians definitely don't work anywhere close to the most hours per week, I think you need to do more research or travel more.
I'm not sure why you are bringing up so many random issues when we are talking about tipping.
Whats next, coal powered electricity vs nuclear?
@samfisher5986: 'I think you need to do some more research on how its done in the USA. There are a lot of bad stories from people who just want to pay their bills.'
So i basically told you to do your own research because our system isnt prefect if you get tips and work over time you get more tips in Australia you work a salary job and work overtime you get ZERO and the employer gets free labour - and as i said employees are getting 9.5k of free labour per-full time worker on average a year
'Australians definitely don't work anywhere close to the most hours per week, I think you need to do more research or travel more.'
27th in the world we arent Mexico and comparing us to the UK where you get 5 weeks of Annual Leave standard and the USA have a higher average wage for the increase hours they do it is pretty clear our system isnt superior…
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/nationa…
We also have a much worst retirement system in Australia i think we are 67th in the world for retirees…..
You need to look at the whole picture thats all time trying to say…
@Trying2SaveABuck: You seem to miss the big point that the majority of people working overtime in Australia are not working jobs where they can be tipped, so your entire argument is flawed.
I can already tell your link is wrong because Japan is 22, and Australia is 27. Japan workers work way way way more hours then us.
Even so, 27 is very far away from "Australians also work some of the most hours a week compared to the rest of the world"
Why would you say something so exaggerated and silly like that?
@samfisher5986: 206 (give or take a few minor nations) countries in the world we have some of the biggest export of natural resources and a very low population comparison to the nations above us and 27th isnt high WTF?
This also doesnt take into consideration additional hours in Australia people work that arent paid for in reality we would be even closer to the top….
Back to the original point the biggest benefit of tipping is it 'Rewards' hard work and good service and i think that point is lost in non-tipping nations. Tipping weather people like it or not is a good idea but i get that is isnt for everyone which is fair enough hence why i said it was an 'unpopular' opinion but you close your self off and not realise there are benefits to it is up to the individual
@Trying2SaveABuck: "27th isn't high" and you said "Australians also work some of the most hours a week compared to the rest of the world"
The people actually making the food on a Friday or Saturday night are also busy and have far more work than the wait staff, yet they don't get any tips at all.
That's why either they get a higher base level of pay, or there's a tip-sharing system.
It is called splitting the tips?
Tipping is a retarded concept from the beginning, of course it's standard in the dumbest (wealthy) third world country on the planet, that should be reason enough to refuse to have anything to do with it. The stupidity of it makes me sick, it's debasing.
That's optional tipping. What the US practices is [essentially] mandatory tipping. It's expected that you will tip a service employee over 10% of the bill, 20% for very good service. Optional tipping is fine, when people go out of their way to do a better job then they should be rewarded. Mandatory tipping is allowing the employer to distance themselves from the responsibility of employment.
And I know you're going to say that uber tipping is optional, but, people are easily pressured to provide good feedback. Look at how the Uber star ratings work, if you have less than a 4.7 rating then you're basically useless.
Feedback is not tipping. Tipping is a cultural thing - it's not something Uber can decide to change unilaterally. I agree that the US-style of tipping is not ideal, but we're in no danger of that happening here.
@HighAndDry: I think you are misunderstanding the situation then.
Uber uses a rating system for passengers.
If customers feel like they need to tip or they will get a bad rating from the driver, then tipping almost becomes mandatory.
Tell my manager to tip me and I'll start passing it down, trickle down economics in action.
Trickle down economics is only favoured by wealthy people, the only people who benefit from trickle down economics. The poorest workers get a different type of 'trickle down'. Rivers of 'gold'.
People who don't get the joke.
If you tip driver via app, you're potentially cutting out the driver's cut of fare if they're like the other companies caught out: https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/06/instacart-ceo-apologizes-f…
Ride costs: $50.
Driver gets $35.
Uber takes 30% (?) Cut of $15
With tipping, a ride costs $50 and tip driver via app: $5.
Driver gets $35 ($30 + $5).
Uber increases their cut based on tip, to $20.
If that's true, you're tipping Uber, not the driver.
The tip goes to the driver, not Uber.
How could we really know how much has been tipped and how much is the disbursement?
Go be their auditor lol.
@ronnknee: Yes when the FY end and the driver wont know if he is getting the right amount. Unless you can check all transactions
@SnoozeAndLose: I think this is getting close to /r/conspiracytheory. Uber says that they don't deduct fees from the tip. If you suggest otherwise then we need proof.
Tips are a plague for workers. We should never encourage it as a common occurrence
No, piss off tips.
This was funny, I gave a driver 1 star. After I hit 1 star*, it asked me to tip them.
*I don't normall give 1 star but this driver:
- went the wrong way
- car smelled
- was on the phone with loudspeaker shouting the entire time
- used the phone while driving to look at a competing rideshare app (olacabs)
- tried to take my phone to give themselves 5 stars
btw, deliveroo has had tipping for years.
Looking at Uber/Ola for future trips while driving is standard practice as far as I know.
Yeah, but fuсking around with your phone while you're driving on a busy road is illegal.
Mostly agree with the reasons for less than 5 star rating, except:
- went the wrong way
It happens.
- used the phone while driving to look at a competing rideshare app (olacabs)
Drivers get requests for their next ride even during their current ride. They literally have 10 seconds to respond.
Drivers get requests for their next ride even during their current ride. They literally have 10 seconds to respond.
He multi-tasked out of one app to the other, leaning over all the way to where his phone was, causing him to miss a turn. It also looked like he was checking some other app which tells him the uber surcharge regions (could be wrong though) in between.
Other than breaking the law, this put me in danger and delayed my arrival, just so he could make a quick buck.
If I weren't busy, I'd have called one of the support drones and received a refund + $10 credit.
It happens.
Yeah, I wouldn't give a <5 star rating just for that.
I do get a small kick out of it when I visit a restaurant in Sydney/Melbourne and when it comes time to pay, if you pay by card the first input is increasingly more common - Tip - the first few times it caught be out and they nearly got several thousand dollar tip because I automatically put in my PIN! Now I'm aware of it and I see it and its easy to cancel and move past.
and they nearly got several thousand dollar tip because I automatically put in my PIN!
The digits inputted are in cents. E.g. if you typed in "1000", that'd be $10.00, not $1,000.00. Though accidentally leaving a $99 tip wouldn't be great either.
Sweet, I know your PIN, just need to get your credit card now…
you must be dreaming if you think im going to tip in australia
Tipping.
Donald trump.
pennies.
Price displayed on items not inclusive of tax in shops.
Different items have different tax rates.
Different states have different tax rates.
can be shot for wearing the wrong colour t shirt in the wrong neighborhood.
Some of my favourite things about Murica
Tipping may be optional now but eventually Uber drivers will start to expect it and then we'll be in a situation where Uber drivers start down rating customers when they don't tip.
Drivers will eventually realise the difference between a 4 and a 5 star customer is a tip, and before you know it if you're a 4 star customer suddenly your Uber doesn't arrive so promptly anymore. Now we get in a situation where tipping (or in this case not tipping) affects the quality of your service.
Slippery slope? Maybe. Unrealistic? I don't believe so.
That's when competition steps in - Uber isn't a monopoly like taxis were. If their service standards drop, people will start using Lyft, or any one of the other dozen rideshare companies instead.
That's why I hate tipping everywhere.
Always feel like shit because you see a tipping screen and they're looking at you.
Just put it into the price so I don't know any better.
Tipping is just awkward and weird.
I think the history of tipping has roots within the realms of free Slaves being employed post the American Civil War, of which the owners of such restaurants didn't actually want to pay their black staff, thus tipping the 'help' without actually employing them was their way of keeping them somewhat indentured. At least that is my understanding of the origins.
My impression is that this says a lot about the culture of tipping. Folks should be paid a living wage, rather than be relying on the possible, however necessarily unreliable generosity of patrons to pay their wages.
The other reason we don't tip in Australia, as I understand it, is because folk are paid a mandated minimum wage, which doesn't necessitate tipping as a common practice. Whereas in the US due to different employment regulations tipping is used as a wage subsidy where employees just don't get enough money.
Nope, as far as I'm concerned, Uber shouldn't be encouraging tipping as an SOP for drivers.
Well said. These are exactly the points people who agree with tipping are overlooking:
Folks should be paid a living wage, rather than be relying on the possible, however necessarily unreliable generosity of patrons to pay their wages.
The other reason we don't tip in Australia, as I understand it, is because folk are paid a mandated minimum wage, which doesn't necessitate tipping as a common practice. Whereas in the US due to different employment regulations tipping is used as a wage subsidy where employees just don't get enough money.
Folks should be paid a living wage
I'd like you to elaborate on this, because this is easy to say but impractically imprecise.
If I want to only work 10hrs a day, do I still deserve a living wage?
What about if I can work 40hrs a day, but I'm so slow and lazy that I only do the the same amount of my coworker does in 10hrs?
I don’t care if it’s a scam or not, I’ve tipped two of my last three Uber Eats drivers $5.00 and will continue doing so for polite and good service.
So, you're tipping them so they do their job properly?
Their job is to get the food to you in decent condition and in a reasonable time. Politeness and good service are extra and to me, deserve to be tipped.
lol, really? Being a normal human being is extra? Wow. This is probably why humanity is screwed because we think being decent is extra. Amazing!
@RocketSwitch: If you've ever worked in hospitality or retail, you'll know that "polite and good service all the time" is nether normal nor easy, especially not with the people you have to put up with.
@HighAndDry: I have, 4 years as a barista. Being polite was not difficult that's for sure, but good service, all the time. I took pride in my work and if they weren't happy, then I would have done something wrong and I would correct it. I enjoyed it. If anything polite and good service are almost a given. There's examples where you're right, no doubt, but surely doesn't deserve to be tipped, but I can understand if you had horrible experiences that when a good human pops up, you want to reward them. If so, that's okay, but surely it shouldn't ever be expected.
@RocketSwitch: You won't get tipped extra for that stuff.
You would likely need to put on a fake personalty and try all the typical tactics to get a better tip.
Why Uber do not pay superannuation??
Law has to be changed
No contractor is paid superannuation.
There is lots of contract workers not being paid super well before uber came along.
The whole tipping culture in America is absurd. Customers expected to pay the wages of workers while businesses are let off paying their workers a fair wages.
You realise that wages ultimately come from customers anyway, right?
Yes but without without tipping, wages are similar and stable.
Tipping means that some people get a lot, and some people get very little, not enough to feed themselves.
I think this is an unresolvable difference of opinion between us. I think rewarding performance > stability for all, you believe the opposite. I can see your point of view, I just unfortunately don't agree.
@HighAndDry: I disagree with your opinion that its unresolveable! ;)
I am not saying that rewarding performance is bad.
I am not saying that giving tips to people does not result in positive things for that staff member.
I am factually stating that there are always people in each business that do not get enough tips, either because they were not born with the personality for it making people extra happy, were not born with breasts, or are not comfortable with flirting.
This is simply a fact, there always losers.
I simply want to know
Why do you think someone with a particular personality but does their job poorly should get twice the pay of someone who does the job very well, but gets half the pay, due to lack of tips?
Would you not agree that if tipping is mandatory, then wages will go down or at the very least, not go up like other non tipping jobs?
I think my overall opinion is that these jobs are not great to work in and the last thing people want is being forced to make their wage by getting tips, and to do that many people have to become very fake and treat customers like royalty.
@samfisher5986: Haha okay, I can't deny that optimism. Let's go!
I am factually stating that there are always people in each business that do not get enough tips, either because they were not born with the personality for it making people extra happy, were not born with breasts, or are not comfortable with flirting.
That's completely true - but personality to make people happy is analogous to having the disposition for any other job. Some people aren't good enough at maths to succeed as accountants or engineers, some people aren't good enough people persons to succeed as sales-people, etc.
At the end of the day, whether you do a good job or not is always be a combination of effort, experience, skills, and natural talent, but performing better is still performing better. We don't penalise professional athletes because they were born with those talents.
As to your questions:
I don't think this is a realistic hypothetical - because tips come from the customer, it's reasonable to expect that they correlate, on average, with how well the customer thinks the worker did their job. To me, a server's job (for example) is not merely taking food from the kitchen to the customers. And a server who makes customers feel better, or enjoy themselves more, is increasing the chances that customer might return. This is good both for the customer (who has a better time) and for the business (who now might have more customers). To me, there's nothing wrong with this server being rewarded over another server who merely transports food, because the first server is creating more value.
I don't actually think tipping should be mandatory - to me that's an oxymoron, if tipping was mandatory it wouldn't be tipping. To answer your question, wages paid by the employer? Possibly, but that would only be because, with tips, employees no longer demand as high wages from the employer directly. Wages are always a negotiation, even if there are always power imbalances. But even minimum wage aside, a server will demand a certain wage rate, because below that it wouldn't make sense for them to even get dressed and drive to work. But the server doesn't care if the pay comes from the employer or from customers - money is money.
I think my overall opinion is that these jobs are not great to work in and the last thing people want is being forced to make their wage by getting tips, and to do that many people have to become fake people who have to treat customers like they are royalty.
This is life. Same as servers, take two people who do exactly as well in the black-and-white parts of their job, but one is more friendly with other coworkers and bosses, is more willing to help others, is encouraging to new hires and supportive of people who're stressed, and makes clients happier. Even without tips, that worker will be promoted miles ahead of the other.
This is nothing new or unique.
But even minimum wage aside, a server will demand a certain wage rate, because below that it wouldn't make sense for them to even get dressed and drive to work. But the server doesn't care if the pay comes from the employer or from customers - money is money.
Sorry but this really shows you don't know how it works when its actually implemented.
As of May 2017, the average hourly wage – including tips – for a restaurant employee in the United States that received tip income was $11.82.
The minimum wage for tipped jobs in the USA is $2.13 per hour.
Please tell me how someone is meant to know if they can pay rent, pay for food etc?
This is life.
No, this is life for people in the USA, not Australia. The point is to make sure it doesn't become like the USA.
take two people who do exactly as well in the black-and-white parts of their job
Your example is one worker getting promoted because the boss thinks they are a good worker
Your other example is a worker getting paid more because they are
All while competing with a better looking guy or girl who is getting more tips just because they look better, or are more athletic etc.
Please tell me how someone is meant to know if they can pay rent, pay for food etc?
You ask the other workers there and estimate based on how well you get tipped elsewhere. Otherwise you don't take the job.
No, this is life for people in the USA, not Australia. The point is to make sure it doesn't become like the USA.
I'm not talking about tipping, I'm talking about - if you're better with people and people like you better, you'll do better in life in general.
All while competing with a better looking guy or girl who is getting more tips just because they look better, or are more athletic etc.
Yes - natural-born talents affect how well you do in life. Someone who's naturally smarter will generally do better. Someone who's more charismatic will generally do better. Someone who's naturally more disciplined will do better. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you do better because you work harder or you were born with better assets, looks, brains, or otherwise. Better is better.
All the things you listed apply just much in basically any sales job, especially any that pays on commission. Sell more, get paid better. Here? Make customers enjoy themselves more, get paid better.
I think you're still not getting it.
Helping customers enjoy themselves is part of the job.
@HighAndDry: Going into a restaurant and asking 5 staff how much their tips are, is not normal practice. And I don't know why you are suggesting this is normal practice.
This doesn't account for all the people who left because they were not showing enough cleavage, how do you intend to ask those people?
Trying to make showing breasts, touching customers, being fake and flirting with customers as "better" is just ridiculous.
Yes the idea that tipping to encourage people to be better staff is great in theory, but thats not how it actually works in reality.
A sales job is specifically to sell cars.
A waitress job is not for selling food. The customer is already purchasing food before the waitress is involved.
I need to stress again that your theory on how it works is not how it works. Simple as that.
It would be nice if your theory was accurate, but its not.
@samfisher5986: What?
Going into a restaurant and asking 5 staff how much their tips are, is not normal practice.
Here it isn't, because workers don't depend on tips. In the US, it absolutely is - but you do it casually. I think that might be part of the issue - you see everything in a really black-and-white way. Life isn't really like that. For example, your job description might be "A, B, C". But if you only do those three things you'll never get promoted.
In any case:
Trying to make showing breasts, touching customers, being fake and flirting with customers as "better" is just ridiculous.
For the worker? Some are okay with it, some aren't. But if it makes the customer feel better, then yes, it absolutely is better for the customer and the business. And the worker deserves to be paid more.
A sales job is specifically to sell cars.
A waitress job is not for selling food. The customer is already purchasing food before the waitress is involved.
Okay, tell me what you think a waitress's job is, because whether you agree or not, it includes making customers meal more enjoyable and happier. The customer might have already bought food, but they don't have to come back again. A customer that enjoyed their time is more likely to leave a positive review, recommend it to friends, bring their families back. All of which is value added by that waitress.
I don't get why you're trying to lecture me on what I "don't get" when you're not getting the concept of customer service and repeat business.
Edit:
Trying to make showing breasts, touching customers, being fake and flirting with customers as "better" is just ridiculous.
RE this part, again I think you're thinking of this too simply. Good customer service isn't just showing cleavage and flirting. Some customers might like that, others won't. I certainly wouldn't tip a waitress who did this - but I would tip better (and do, even here) to servers who know all the specials, who have good recommendations of what to get, if there are any discounts on, who comes to get my order when I'm ready to order, who gets drinks and food to us quickly, who lets us know if food is delayed, who might come ask if we need refills if our glasses are empty.
That's good customer service, makes customer's stay and meal better, yes, even after they've already ordered, and helps the business. That warrants tipping over a server who just hands me a menu, takes my order, and hands me food.
@HighAndDry: I think the issue is I'm telling you why the USA system is bad.
You think that things would be different if we implemented it.
None of us have a crystal ball, but I think the issue is way too important to risk any type of tipping.
@samfisher5986: Yeah - I actually agree with you that the USA system has issues, but its issues are due to far more factors than just the fact of tipping (off the top of my head because I haven't really looked into it much recently: at-will employment, extremely low minimum wage, glut of low-income workers, lower cost of living for most but not all essentials, etc).
Just solely the concept of tipping though, that's not to blame for USA's issues, and I don't think is bad in and of itself.
@samfisher5986: The minimum wage is set by the government, and there's no way it's ever going down. Tipping can't affect it here in Aus.
@HighAndDry: Did the minimum wage ever go down in the USA? I doubt it.
The problem is that tipping encourages not to raise the minimum wage, over time it can matter a lot.
@samfisher5986: The US never had a strong worker protection system in the first place. And the same pressures that cause the minimum wage to rise now - PR, public pressure, govt wanting votes - will continue to apply even with tipping.
So uber takes a 25% cut, ever thought about dropping your cut down to 20% like ola then perhaps the passengers don't need to pay a tip just to keep drivers on the road?
What's stopping you from using Ola, as both a passenger or a driver?
Which we should all be doing anyway as it will encourage competition.
Assuming it goes the way Uber want it to go.
Customer tips > Uber can pay driver less whilst driver stays "happy" > Uber can be more competetive with their fares > maintain/take more market share