Selling Online - Best Payment Method?

SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 18:54

I've seen many a posts on people scammed through posting items sold online i.e. gumtree etc. And differing opinions.

As far as im concerned the only two methods i believe are direct bank transfer (bsb , ac no and name) or paypal??

Bank cheque etc. Can bounce or be reversed after clearing from what i hear??

Can anyone offer a definite answer? Short of hard cold cash is a direct deposit bulletproof. Or can a bank pull funds still i..e stolen bank acct used illegally to pay?

How about paypal?someone in recent scamming posts mentioned this was just as if not more secure than direct deposit. My understanding from ebay days was disputed items could result in negative reversals against your paypal in favour of scamming buyers. I extrapolate from that that paypal can reverse any deposited proceeds if buyer scams you? Although I'm not sure if this is possible?

I believe paypal offers new methods of quick cash sales to family friends…. is this the best method? Or is it a specific type of paypal i need to use to make a sale to someone to ensure no reversal can be made??

Would appreciate any hints and tips to avoid getting scammed…

Asking as have a gumtree "will you post" potential sale. Prefer not to give bank name out if paypal is more secure but otherwise the old bank deposit directly seemed secure?

General Discussion

Comments

  • altomic on 25/02/2019 - 19:02
    +1

    Bank cheque

    • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 19:15

      First thing i learnt about what NOT to use ha ha.

      • HighAndDry on 25/02/2019 - 19:35
        +3

        As far as im concerned the only two methods i believe are direct bank transfer (bsb , ac no and name) or paypal??

        You might want to forget a large part, if not all, of what you've "learnt".

        Paypal is notoriously anti-seller.

        A bank transfer is safer, but can still be fraudulent. Much harder to forge a bank cheque. At that point, the buyer may as well start forging cash.

        • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 19:39

          But a bank cheque would still pale in comparison to a direct bank deposit correct?

          My only issue is whether any privacy concerns as you have to give out your name and relevant bsb and acct no. Not sure what they can then flow onto knowing your name and banking details though?

          • HighAndDry on 25/02/2019 - 19:51
            +2

            @SaberX: A Bank Cheque is not a normal cheque. It's guaranteed by and drawn on the funds of the bank itself. A bank direct deposit can be reversed if, for example, it's a bank account that was hacked. And just as a comparison, you can't use a hacked bank account to buy a bank cheque, because even just getting one involves more verification - and even if someone did, it'd be the bank who'd wear the loss because they would be the one who accepted the money from the hacked account.

            • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 19:54
              +1

              @HighAndDry: Ok so bank cheque is via branch in person is it?? Versus a standard cheque comes from just the cheque book aka old style??

              If i use a bank direct deposit method is there a number of days once it clears that fraudulent transactions can be reversed? Or is there no time limit per se if bank investigates and finds it as such?

              • HighAndDry on 25/02/2019 - 19:56

                @SaberX: Yup - bank cheques are generally bought in person at a branch. Kind of like Aus Post money orders - which are also very safe.

                Bank direct deposits have a certain number of days before they're 'cleared' and you can use them, but your suspicions are right - banks can still reverse the transaction far later than that if they discover it's fraudulent.

              • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/02/2019 - 21:40
                +2

                @SaberX: I have seen a bank cheque reversed due to theft. Owner dropped the bank cheque (to a big box retailer) literally 2 metres outside the front door. Someone picked it up, walked in and used it to buy a TV. Left with the TV. Bank subsequently cancelled/reversed the bank cheque due to being "lost or stolen".

                • HighAndDry on 26/02/2019 - 11:30

                  @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Did you have more details? This would go against the bank cheque policies of basically all the major banks.

                  • Agarwal on 26/02/2019 - 16:06

                    @HighAndDry: Are you sure? Bank cheques can be stopped if they are lost or stolen.

                    eg.

                    https://www.nab.com.au/personal/help-and-guidance/personal-b…

                    • HighAndDry on 26/02/2019 - 16:15

                      @Agarwal: Key caveat:

                      if it is presented for payment by a person who has no right to it.

                      If the bank cheque was given as consideration for goods or services to someone who's unaware of the fact that it was lost or stolen, that person would be entitled to it. The relevant principle is effectively identical to that of being a bona fide purchaser for value without notice, except in this case it'd be bona fide recipient of funds. (Heck, it'd be that exact principle if you framed the bank cheque as the relevant personal property and the goods sold or services provided as being the payment.)

                      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/02/2019 - 21:37

                        @HighAndDry: Of course I'm sure. I was there.

                        Your key caveat is with that NAB website. The T&Cs of most banks differ and stipulate individual requirements.

                        Your argument doesn't really work as well as the person who happened about the dropped bank cheque was committing theft by finding and the retail store was selling goods, not obtaining them. Possibly a different story if an employee of the retail store happened upon the dropped cheque, but they didn't. A 3rd party was involved.

                        • HighAndDry on 26/02/2019 - 23:12

                          @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: If you give goods in return for a bank cheque you reasonably believe to be valid, you're entitled to the funds the subject of that bank cheque. That's it. That a third party is involved is irrelevant as between the person holding the cheque, and the bank whose name is on that cheque.

                          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 27/02/2019 - 10:59

                            @HighAndDry: Not when theft or fraud is involved.

                            I could jump on jade.io and give numerous cites but I don't believe it is worth my time for such a trivial discussion when

                            a) I was there; and
                            b) it happened exactly how I said it happened.

                            • HighAndDry on 27/02/2019 - 11:34

                              @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                              Not when theft or fraud is involved.

                              Unless the person presenting the cheque was involved in the theft or fraud (or was aware of it), that's irrelevant. Your single anecdotal experience says very little - mistakes do get made, one-off scenarios do happen.

                              • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 27/02/2019 - 13:13

                                @HighAndDry: The cheque was reported lost or stolen by the drawer.
                                The bank no longer honours said cheque as it intends to replace, or has already replaced, said cheque to the drawer.
                                Person presenting the cheque is no longer entitled to cash said cheque nor is the cheque still valid.

                                A 10 second google indicates all the major banks have a policy regarding lost or stolen cheques in their terms.

                                • HighAndDry on 27/02/2019 - 13:16
                                  -1

                                  @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                                  A 10 second google indicates all the major banks have a policy regarding lost or stolen cheques in their terms.

                                  With caveats - as with the NAB policies above.

                                  The bank no longer honours said cheque

                                  You can't just unilaterally decide to dishonour a cheque. Even a private individual can't legally do that, banks certainly can't.

                                  I'm going to stop here, because you don't seem to understand how cheques work.

                                  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 27/02/2019 - 13:21
                                    +1

                                    @HighAndDry: Only that bank appears to have caveats - already discussed above.

                                    OF COURSE a bank can choose to cancel a bank cheque. It happens all the time. They are not cash.

                                    Again, why would every major bank state this exact scenario in their terms if they did not have the power to cancel a bank cheque?

                                    I only deal with these every day, and you rely on one particular institutions wording in a PDF brochure/website, but sure. See ya.

    • Never Pay RRP on 26/02/2019 - 16:45

      Bank cheques aren't as safe as some people presume.
      They can be forged, and they can be reversed. https://www.nab.com.au/personal/help-and-guidance/personal-b…
      Also since you (as an individual) don't know the exact security measures to look out for, you would need to cash the cheque and have it accepted by a bank to have confidence it was not forged.
      As a side note it still takes 3 days to clear a bank cheque as well, and apparently your money isn't 'safe' until it clears

      • HighAndDry on 27/02/2019 - 13:17
        -1

        Also since you (as an individual) don't know the exact security measures to look out for

        Most people wouldn't know what security features to look for on a bank note. Literal multi-million dollar transactions take place using bank cheques and some people here think they know better.

        and apparently your money isn't 'safe' until it clears

        I give up.

        • Never Pay RRP on 04/03/2019 - 14:19

          Most people wouldn't know what security features to look for on a bank note. Literal multi-million dollar transactions take place using bank cheques and some people here think they know better.

          So you think people are equally likely to be fooled by a fake bank note and a fake bank cheque? Majority of people handle cash on a daily basis, but I'm guessing most would be lucky to have seen a bank cheque more than a few times in their entire lives
          Your multi-million dollar transactions aren't likely to be conducted by/with an individual selling one low value item. In these multi million dollar deals, there would be multiple lawyers trained in how to handle these, and there is very likely to be recourse if the transaction fails. Your example in comparing that to a one person $30 item as an individual seller is ridiculous!

          I give up.

          If you didn't bother to read my original link https://www.nab.com.au/personal/help-and-guidance/personal-b…
          Also try https://www.commbank.com.au/personal/apply-online/download-p… page 14 under Bank Cheques

          "Although bank cheques are more widely accepted than personal cheques, they are not the same as cash"
          Right below that is a list of reasons bank cheques can be dishonored.

          But you clearly know better than NAB and CBA (and I bet I could find those same disclaimers from any bank if I could be bothered)…

        • Never Pay RRP on 04/03/2019 - 14:40

          Turns out I had more time than I thought:
          https://westpac.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/924
          "Cheques remain uncleared for three business days including the date of deposit. This includes bank cheques."

  • Ughhh on 25/02/2019 - 19:09
    +1

    The safest payment method for buyer is different to seller. It also depends what you're buying /selling, it may change the recommended method.

    Apart from cash in hand upon inspection (except for tickets and gift voucher, unless used immediately), Basically for

    Buyer: use a method that has same kind of backup protection, ie. PayPal, Avoid bank deposit.

    Seller: a method that does not allow buyer to fraudulently chargeback and does not guarantee payment ie. Bank deposit, as chargeback is possible with PayPal.

    • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 19:14

      I am the seller. Im selling some coin set. Collectible. Low value so only 30 bucks or so but obviously still wouldnt want to be scammed.

      So by providing bank details they cannot fraudulently chargeback even if they hack a bank account and use its funds? Basically amethod which once money shows in your bank account your 110% safe to send??

      How do they fraudulently reverse paying a paypal direct invoice/whatever they call it these days?

      • Quantumcat on 25/02/2019 - 19:51

        They might be able to get their money back with bank transfer if they deposit a cheque that bounces or has incorrect details on it - but I think it will say pending in that case

        • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 19:55

          Yeap. That's why one would notice if it wasnt a direct deposit into bank account as presumably avail balance will differ if still not cleared. That way no fraudulent bounce back…

        • Never Pay RRP on 26/02/2019 - 15:55
          +1

          I believe that banks will not allow you to transfer funds that have not cleared (i.e. cheque balance is held and unavailable for transfer until 5 business days)

          • HighAndDry on 26/02/2019 - 16:20

            @Never Pay RRP: "Clearing" is kind of a weird concept. Banks generally have a standard clearing timeframe within which you can't use the funds, and in which the bank will do their due diligence to make sure the funds are available, it wasn't fraudulent, etc.

            BUT the caveat is that they don't always complete their due diligence within this period, and their due diligence isn't always 100% fool-proof. And if they find out, whether by their own due diligence or by being notified by the source bank, even after the clearing period that the transfer or the cheque is not legit for whatever reason, they can still reverse that transaction.

          • Quantumcat on 26/02/2019 - 17:39

            @Never Pay RRP: Someone posted either here or on whirlpool about being scammed by a buyer depositing a fake or bad cheque. I don't remember if it said it was pending or not though. Maybe they deposited the cheque straight into the sellers account rather than through theirs then transfer.

      • adam on 25/02/2019 - 20:17
        +2

        Unfortunately bank transfers can be reversed too, even after they have 'cleared'. If the buyer were, for example, fraudulently using someone elses bank account to pay for it then when this was discovered the bank would reverse it.

        There aren't many safe methods for the seller. The only truly safe methods are cash (not suitably if not meeting in person), bank cheque and wire transfer (ala Western Union). However buyers would always be advised to not pay for something with bank cheque or wire transfer as the seller could just run off with the money.

        The point is, if its completely safe for the seller then it is unsafe for the buyer and vice versa.

        At the end of the day you will need to trust the person you are dealing with a little to complete the transaction. If you don't feel that are being trustworthy just skip them and wait for someone else.

        • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 21:01

          True points. A safety for seller means reverse for buyer and vice versa.

          How exactly can one reverse a paypal method though?? And if its only a small value 20 or 30 dollar item what is the chance of someone trying to scam such a low value?

          • adam on 25/02/2019 - 21:56
            +1

            @SaberX: They tell Paypal they never received it & Paypal reverses them the money… or they uses fraudulent funded source.

            I think the question you raise is valid… scammers probably aren't interested in $30 worth of coinage, they more go after phones and easily resellable electronic items. Unlikely to be a scammer.

      • Ughhh on 25/02/2019 - 21:42

        I would say if someone was to "buy" from you with a hacked account, they'll most likely to target high value items that are easy to sell and get rid of, like iphones,.

    • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 19:15

      P.s. curious about your gift cards and tickets comment. What would one used if not cash in that instance?

      • Quantumcat on 25/02/2019 - 20:11

        The danger is you get ripped off when the gift card has no balance or isn't real, and tickets can be cancelled or already redeemed or the details given to multiple buyers (so first to get scanned gets in). If you pay by cash you'll definitely lose your money, but PayPal may have a small chance to get it back.

        • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 21:00

          The risk of that happening doesnt change with paypal however you advise using this method as a small chance of redeeming back? How would one prove the ticket had been falsely sold though?

          • Quantumcat on 25/02/2019 - 21:09

            @SaberX:

            How would one prove the ticket had been falsely sold though?

            That's why only a small chance. With cash you have zero chance.

  • GangGang on 25/02/2019 - 19:59

    Depends on what you're selling.

    You also mentioned cash, but not cash in hand.

    • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 20:56

      Posting item. Hence not cash. I woulf assume anyone using paypal etc. Wouldnt be meeting in person??or do buyers buy with paypal after meeting in person still??

      • adam on 25/02/2019 - 21:58

        People don't normally pay with Paypal and meet in person. All in-person deals I've done have been cash.

      • Quantumcat on 26/02/2019 - 08:15
        +1

        Don't accept PayPal if you are handing the item to the buyer in person, you will 100% lose the money if the buyer raises a dispute

      • Never Pay RRP on 26/02/2019 - 16:49

        Maybe do cash on delivery?
        Not sure if that is still a thing…

        https://auspost.com.au/business/ecommerce/accept-payments-fr… seems a bit expensive for a $30 item

  • Agarwal on 25/02/2019 - 20:05

    Why not get them to deposit cash into your bank account?

    • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 20:56

      That is the direct bank deposit/ transfer option highlighted in my OP.

      • Agarwal on 25/02/2019 - 21:08

        No not a transfer, I mean they can go into a branch of whatever you bank with and deposit cash over the counter.

        • adam on 25/02/2019 - 21:58

          I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference between that and a transfer (as the recipient).

  • amethystau on 25/02/2019 - 20:44

    Paypal with tracking ? Send only to their paypal address with proof and pictures you sent it to their address.

    • Presence on 25/02/2019 - 20:52
      +1

      It's not fool proof. Time and time again scammers will say the item is not as described and get a PayPal refund.

      • SaberX on 25/02/2019 - 20:59

        This is my worry. They aren't comfortable with bank deposit and want paypal. Meanwhile id prefer a more secure bank deposit for example.

        If it works out it's an easy sale otherwise i have to move on.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/02/2019 - 21:43

          For a low value 20 or 30 buck item I'd say just wait for the next buyer. Not worth the risk and/or hassle.

        • LFO on 26/02/2019 - 20:12

          For a reason they "want" PayPal. To rip you off.

  • Densor on 26/02/2019 - 09:23

    I recently sold an item and the buyer used the newish mobile phone bank transfer method. We were both Commbank account holders and my phone is registered to my account. He simply went into the app, entered my mobile phone number, my name came up on his phone as the person he was paying to, and he did the transfer. I immediately got a message in my phone app and the money appeared in my account. It was simple, fast and secure.

    It isn't just a Commbank thing and most banks now have it. The risk is still with the buyer I guess as the seller may not post the item. It would make me feel slightly better as the phone number has to be real and registered to an actual bank account.

    • 7Alice7 on 26/02/2019 - 12:43

      Is it Beem It?

  • well well well on 26/02/2019 - 13:12

    PayPal no longer offers any buyer protection to Gumtree transactions, so the seller is in a much better position; however, there is a possibility the buyer may say it was an unauthorised transaction. If you have issues with that you can always supply the address details to Paypal so they can compare it to the buyers address details and also provide proof of your chats so they can authenticate the transaction. I would assume that would help you.

    Another option is bank deposit. It can take a day or two to clear but I think after that it can be a bit more difficult for the buyer to claw the money back. You could always check with your bank to see what your options would be in this case.

    Unless the person is paying COD or Cash on Pickup it is difficult to provide a guarantee that the money won't reverse. I know you can use Australia Post COD but the service costs a bit extra.

    I haven't had any issues posting things on Gumtree and using both bank deposit and PayPal - but the majority of the items sent are textbooks or car parts. But, I know that isn't the case for everyone.

  • LFO on 26/02/2019 - 20:11

    Would appreciate any hints and tips to avoid getting scammed

    From our experience: EFT as a bank transfer. ONLY. As soon as funds are credited move those funds to another account to be extra sure.

    PayPal has fees and may "hold" funds for a number of weeks/days.

    PayPal can be reversed if the item you sent is "misplaced" (AKA the recipient lies and tries to cheat)

    Don't release any items until funds are credited in your bank account. Ignore that fantasy that bank transfers are instantaneous.

    If the buyer doesn't have a bank account then they could go to a physical bank teller and deposit the money in your bank account as a bank transfer would do.

    Cash is King …. But bank transfers Rule

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