Toilet for Disabled Users in a Community Garden; Advice Required Please

Dear ‘Ozbers’,

I am seeking an expert opinion (or two) on what the ‘total cost’ might be (in very approximate terms of course) to install a single ‘plumbed-in/normal’ flushing toilet within the confines of a fenced-off/non-public-access community garden in Melbourne. The community garden is used regularly and very productively by various special-needs groups under the very capable supervision of their carers, but its use by such patrons is currently unfortunately severely time-limited by the simple fact that there is no toilet onsite, nor is there a public toilet anywhere near it. The site/fenced-off community garden is already connected to the water and electricity mains, so there would be no (or relatively minimal) problems or associated costs in that regard, and there are various potential locations on the premises (inside the fence) where the building could be situated; if we raised the appropriate funds and the required council approvals to install the toilet were forthcoming.

Importantly, the toilet would primarily be used by people who either rely on wheel-chairs for mobility, or require assistance going to the toilet for reasons relating to their mental capacity. Notably though, such users would always have the option of being assisted by their supervising carer where required; so it needn’t be a ‘fully fledged disabled toilet’ (that terminology sounds bad, sorry about that but I am trying to keep this text as brief as I can). What I mean is, the actual area (floor-space) within the walls around the toilet would need to be big enough to accommodate (‘fit’) the toilet user and their carer, but the toilet would not need to be designed to be able to be ‘autonomously used’ by someone who relied on a wheel-chair/could not stand, like standard ‘disabled toilets’ (again, I apologise for that unfortunate terminology) in publicly accessible places are. This is not a publicly accessible area, as such; I am not alluding to the construction of a ‘public toilet’.

The idea of a ‘composting toilet’ has been considered but was ultimately deemed inappropriate for a few key reasons (which I personally agree with; it is not an appropriate option due to a combination of rather specific circumstances in this situation). Thus, the course of action we would be wisest to take next seems to be to:

  1. Get some RELIABLE/INFORMED idea of the potential costs involved in building a toilet that can be used onsite by a wheelchair-bound or otherwise impaired person with the assistance of their carer.

  2. Approach the council/relevant governing body with that information (and a proposal incorporating us helping to raise that money, if need be).

  3. Acquiring approval for the installation of the toilet, as soon as the funds become available/are raised.

  4. Acquiring those funds from council, or raising them, or a combination of both. Definitely, there would be no point in embarking on this step (raising the money), until step #3 above (acquiring approval to build) had been attained/achieved.

**SO… **, back to my initial question. Is there a kind-hearted expert or two (builder and/or plumber, or combination thereof) who could spare 10 or 20 minutes to consider the above, and contribute their expert opinions on this by way of a few lines of text in this thread? It would be extremely appreciated. Currently we are just met with a council ‘brick-wall/script’ akin to the famous ‘computer says no’ skit every time we raise it, and I think the main reason is that we are not presenting them with a detailed enough proposal. My ‘very ball-park guess’ would be that the cost would be a minimum of $15,000, but I am hoping that it would be below $25,000. Does that sound right, or am I too low there?

Any advice at all from anyone on this issue would be greatly appreciated; particularly anyone with any relevant knowledge/experience. The advice that would be most appreciated though, would be some sort of reasoned estimate from a suitably qualified person (builder/plumber/etc.) as to what it would be likely to actually cost… and/or any further details that I would need to supply/elaborate on before a more accurate estimate could be suggested.

Even if you have nothing to contribute at all, if you have read this message right to the end, thanks for that. It’s about a toilet. Hardly a ‘glamorous’ topic!

Comments

  • +2

    Someone else may assist with budget. My may issue would be where the sewer and water supply would be coming from. If there is nothing close by you will blow the costs in getting the services there. Do you have any idea where the existing sewer and if there is water. Water you may be able to get for flushing, but you will need it to clean hands. If no sewer you will probably need septic. Not to say you can't do what you propose, its just that a lot of factors need to be considered. The other thing is getting it approved through council. You could probably manage a portable lieu, but that is not what you are proposing or needing.

    • +2

      You could probably manage a portable lieu, but that is not what you are proposing or needing.

      I think there are accessible port-a-loos. Might be the cheapest option.
      I would check into what portable toilets are available that are wheelchair accessible.
      Seems to be much more availabilty in hiring portable toilets, therefore I would check out what the hire places have in way of portable toilets with wheelchair access, to get an idea of what is available, then look at price to purchase one (even ask hire place if they have any to sell).

      When you have your pricing options worked out, and decided what you want built, decided on purchases etc…. I would suggest asking nicely at various business, of they would be willing to offer a discount, (explain what it is for, and taht you have very limited funds, and would need to fund raise etc).
      If you are a registered charity, then O believe you can issue a receipt for any donation, and the business that donates I think gets it back in their tax return (about 50% return, if in the high tax bracket).
      Once you have a cost estimate, and know what you want, maybe the very large building companies and/plumbing companies, could be the best place to start. A photo and story in local paper showing the disabled toilet they built for free, and showing the disabled people that use it (whom the toilet is mainly for) would be great publicity for any business.
      Could even talk to local paper about whether they would do a little story about your current need, then ask for community support. Then a follow up article or photo in paper, would be likely, if some businesses put toilet up for free.
      Even a few businesses could lend support to get it done, rather than just 1 person/business doing it all. Ie. Maybe the plumbing supllies will be donated by bunnings, maybe the building stuff might be donated be 'whatever large company sells building supplies' , then labour might come from somewhere else (perhaps some volunteers can provide some of the labour).

      • +2

        Ok. Didn't think there was disabled access ones, but that would make sense for public events. Yeah OP could buy one or hire it and have it maintained by a cleaner or service it. Wouldn't get much use.

        • Hi Flanders, thanks for your lengthy contribution! The 'porta-loo' is not a viable option because it would be needed once a week or more. The disabled groups come regularly—though currently only for a very limited time, only because of the lack of a toilet—and those porta-loos are actually super expensive because you have to pay for delivery, pick-up, and a daily charge for as long as it remains onsite. They are really only viable for 'high-cost'/once-off operations like building sites, and festivals etc. That is nothing even remotely like what I am talking about.

          Your suggestions about getting a registered charity and businesses involved though, are brilliantly thought out and articulated. We had 'thought about'/discussed all that stuff, but not really in such a pragmatic/detailed/logical way as you have put it all, and in writing no less. Thank you very kindly for taking the time to do that, it will be an immense help :)

          • +1

            @GnarlyKnuckles: Your very welcome . I kind of start writing, then 'brainstorm' as I went. Glad to be of assistance.
            Any problems come up, I am very much a problem solver, logical thinker, so feel free message me if get stuck and/or post another ozbargain question. I'm more than happy to spend my time to help disabled persons, or anyone disadvantaged.

            Regarding portaloo, I meant purchase one rather than renting. Unless there is some cheap rental plan for long term hire.

            Just the rental place would be where I would go to have a look what is available in portable disability toilets. Just have a look what they have, to see if it is a suitable option . Then look online or wherever (or even ask hire place where they buy them from).

    • Thanks Dedbny, as I mentioned above 'The site/fenced-off community garden is already connected to the water and electricity mains', so there would be no (or relatively minimal) problems or associated costs in that regard.

      But Maybe I was 'under-thinking' that. The running water is definitely not a problem/is already connected, but you make a good point about the sewerage. Maybe there would still be a somewhat massive cost involved creating a link from the site to the nearest sewerage 'channel'/pipe. Two of the 4 sides of the premises/property are bordered by a public footpath so if a sewerage pipe runs along either of those that may not be such a problem. But I suspect there is no sewerage pipes running along either of those footpaths, because the garden is situated within a small park-type area surrounded by a road, which contains no houses/dwellings on 'our' side of that road. So it is likely that to get to the nearest sewerage pipe, you would need to cross a road. That might be expen$ive. Damn!

    • +1

      Be interesting to know what the cost is. OP please update if you get quotes.

    • +1

      Erm, wow, it's funny how we at the garden have discussed this at lenth on numerous occasions but not one of us has thought to take this NOW VERY OBVIOUS step! Your idea is pure genius in its simplicity qwerts, and I thank you very kindly for it. I have requested a quote from 'modusaustralia' via their very efficient online 'get a quote' process, and I have also requested one from 'pureablue' via their round-about/odd/somewhat vague 'system' that involved eventually being put through someone on the phone who informed me of an email to send 'some (unspecified) details' to. I will post the amounts of the resulting quotes here, for anyone interested.

      • +2

        The ambiguity of the English language enables this passage to be interpreted as either sarcastic or grateful.

        • +1

          To clarify, it was not intended to be sarcastic at all; we seriously/actually did not think of availing ourselves of a couple of free quotes! In retrospect, I can't imagine why none of us thought of doing it. So I am sincerely grateful to qerts for suggesting what only now (i.e. in retrospect) seems a very obvious thing to do! (and supplying a couple of useful links too)

    • A quick update for all the posters/selfless contributors who very kindly provided their opinions/info etc. … it has been more than 2 weeks since I requested quotes from the above mobs via their own respective online 'get a quote' systems, and I have received nothing whatsoever back to date. No email, no SMS, nothing. I think possibly my error was to mention that it was 'not a council job'! LOL.

      Anyways, it will be interesting to see if either of these companies ever get back to me on this.

    • UPDATE: As at 25 March 2019, no quote whatsoever from either of these two companies, despite all reasonable steps taken to acquire a quote from both of them. The fact that it is not a 'government job' seems to deter companies from actually providing even a provisional/non-binding/'ball-park' (to use an Americanism) quote. You can quote me on that ;P I suppose the reasons are obvious … with a 'private' job you are actually obliged (contractually) to deliver what you say you will at the price you said you would. Who would 'opt for that option', when there's an alternative, which is to underquote, start work, then 'unexpectedly discover' a raft of (remarkably predictable) things …

      LOL, I know it's 'supposed' to be the same game (i.e. law/rules/regs) whether quoting for a private job or a gov job, but it's simply common knowledge that it's not. When supposedly 'free-range' companies decide that it is not even worth their while to QUOTE on non-govy jobs, that's a bit telling…

  • +4

    If you want expert advice on outdoor toilets, you've come to the right place my friend!

  • +3

    I know a campsite that installed a toilet block with accessible toilet and shower for $50,000, but they did a fair chunk of labour themselves.
    I also know a local park play area that costs more than doubled (to $200k!) to meet accessibility regulations due to needing lots of paving to accommodate wheelchair access.
    So my suggestion is to start by saying you want a quote for a toilet, and ask that it be large enough to accommodate a wheel chair etc. in future, but avoid getting quotes for accessible installations, as the standard is very involved and drives up costs.

    That said, we should aim for best practices for accessibility if possible.

    • Thanks Ma Kegs, as always your sagely advice is very much appreciated.

  • +1

    I'm no builder, but I have some idea of what would be required, and I think you're budget is way too low. I think a toilet could normally be built for 30K, for a basic structure where sewer was less than 10m away, but once regulation gets involved the cost balloon to 80-100k.

    It depends what you're after though. Do you need a self cleaning toilet, with automatic soap and waster dispensing like they have in the park? Or would you be happy with a simple outside toilet made from cinder blocks and pine. Obviously the former is a lot more expensive than the latter

    • We do not need anything like 'self-cleaning' etc.; we just need the simplest functional thing (that flushes, i.e., not a 'composting' toilet) that will enable disabled people to go to the toilet, assisted by their carer. So, a 'normal' toilet with a rail along one side of it/next to it on the wall, situated inside a weather-proof structure large enough to fit two people and a wheel-chair.

  • +1

    Is the proposed amenity going to increase sales or traffic, and may it improve the garden's bottom line?

    • There are no 'sales', so the joint has no 'bottom line'. Everything it needs is bought/paid-for buy a handful of the most committed/'community-minded' (and financially capable) members; except, I should note, the water bill which the council very kindly pays for. I say I should note that because it is by far the biggest ongoing expense associated with the place.

      It is a 'community garden' in the traditional sense, in that it is akin to a 'community service'. Peeps who live in high-rise flats/have no garden can have a small plot there to grow vegetables in with their children, and various groups such as the disabled groups I have alluded to use it to visit/garden in/get outside/'get acquainted' with the concept that fruit/vegetables are not created in factories/etc., but are actually grown.

      With regard to another of your questions, having a toilet there would definitely increase the usability or 'usefulness' of the place (i.e., 'traffic'). At the moment it can be considered something of a wasted community asset, in that sense. It gets plenty of 'use' currently, but as far as I am concerned the very people that would benefit from it the most (the disabled groups I have alluded to, as well as others such as the elderly etc.) are severely limited re the extent that they can use it, because there is no public toilet there or even anywhere remotely near it.

      • +2

        Thanks for replying.

        Have you tried to contact your state of federal MP? They may be in a position to access enough funds to pay for the project.

        • If it comes to that, then with some relevant quotes in hand (as wisely suggested by qerts above), we will definitely consider doing that.

  • +1

    Do you have a building already that the toilet will be put in? This will affect cost greatly. Ultimately with a building already in place and readily available connection to sewer/water/power you will not see any change from $15k-$20k. Without a building in place to house the toilet, this is really just throwing a dart board at a number between 25k and 70k.

    In regards to design, you will find the dimension and requirements for a disable toilet are quite specific so you needn't worry about that detail. It is all clearly outlined in the Australian standards and any architect / design and construct builder worth their coin can design this. That is the easy part.

    • There is currently no building within which the toilet could be situated. There is currently only a small shed (of about 4 m x 4 m) built on a larger concrete slab on the site, which is used to 'house' gardening materials (tools, wheel-barrows), crockery, etc., and an undercover roofed area built on the same concrete slab extending from that shed, which has a double 'kitchen sink' on it that is plumbed into mains water (as are two long garden hoses onsite).

      The aforementioned shed is supplied with/connected to mains power, and the aforementioned sink is connected to mains water; but I assume no part of the property is connected to a sewerage pipe. I envisage this possibly being the largest component of the cost of installing a flushing toilet on the site, possibly even bigger than the cost of everything else combined—particularly if 'tunneling under a road' is required. I'd imagine that in these 'enlightened times' of extreme over-regulation/over-the-top 'OHS' requirements etc. that even tunneling under a small little-used road for just half a day would cost $quillion$; because you would need to:

      1. Pay for a meeting between the council and the relevant sub-contractor/s.
      2. Pay VIC-roads to consider any proposal/s.
      3. Pay for the outcomes/determinations made at those meeting/s and/or contained in those proposal/s to be considered by an independent 'risk assessment' committee/entity.
      4. Pay for an official report of those risk assessment/s to be compiled and supplied to the council, VIC-roads, the subcontractor/s involved, and the peeps who paid for the report/s to be compiled (i.e. the applicants themselves).
      5. Etc. etc. etc.; before any work even starts.

      In my experience, this is generally how councils/government operate when it comes to anyone who is not inherently part of the council or government who is seeking approval to build (or even do) virtually anything. It is analogous to the clearly evident fact that one of the primary goals (if not the primary goal?) of most of those engaged in the legal profession is to create ongoing work for themselves. But I digress … getting back to the matter at hand, I am assuming that just because we can drain water down a sink, that does not mean we are already connected to the sewerage system, is that correct? They are two totally different systems in Australia, is that right?

  • +1

    If it's a community garden then I assume the council owns the property (all the community gardens I know of are council owned).

    If so then they won't let you build a "psuedo-disabled toilet" as you are proposing. It will have to meet AS 1428.1-2009 Design for access and mobility – General requirements for access – New building work. To do otherwise creates a total bunfight further down the track.

    Bank on $50k-$100k depending on how close the sewer line is. Keep in mind that you should be able to get some subsidies from the council and various community groups including those that use the site.

    It sounds counter-intuitive but you might be better off with a hired solution to start with. It will come out of Opex but the cost of this can be used in the business case to justify the building of a permanent structure (capex). You also need to show how the facility will be maintained (cleaning, toilet paper, soap, hand towels and test/tag of any electrical items in the facility).

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