Need Legal Advice and Help on Strata Issue

Llivingroompc on 25/01/2019 - 00:49

Hi, I have a strata issue problem where I would like your professional opinion please.

Back in June 2018, the strata maintenance company came up to my apartment saying they are going around the units that caused water leaking down into the shop below. Unluckily, after investigation, they have found that the water leak was due to a leak in the pipe behind my kitchen wall. I asked them who was in charge of the bill and they said it was strata so I said do whatever you can to rectify the issue asap.

The strata maintenance company then came along in December again and said there was leaking in the shop below. After investigation they found it was another leak in the water pipe behind the wall of my kitchen (different place from June). They said it was covered by strata so again, I asked them to do whatever they can to fix it.

The bill of June 2018 seems to be roughly $13000 and strata has claimed insurance that would pay them $8000. Now they are asking me to pay the remaining $5000 due to the “exclusive use” bylaws, this issue and rectification is owner responsibility.

The problem is I don’t have insurance and if I knew it was going to be my responsibility in the first place, I wouldn’t have used their strata maintenance company in the first place who overcharges things. Now I’m worried if I have to pay this much for the burst in June, how much will I have to pay in the incident that happened in December?

My question: I think the cost should be covered by Owners Corporation as this pipe was behind the wall and is a common property. What are my options and how can I proceed from here?

General Discussion Strata

Comments

  • hmac on 25/01/2019 - 01:07
    +5

    Before anyone reads all of that, did you consult a laywer for legal advice?

    • pifts on 25/01/2019 - 01:46
      +2

      Why get professional legal advice (sometimes FREE through naclc.org.au) when you can get the personal opinion of an internet stranger who has no vested interest in your wellbeing.

      • Ughhh on 25/01/2019 - 09:47

        No consequences from giving out wrong and possibly damaging advice too! Everyone is an expert here.

  • djkelly69 on 25/01/2019 - 01:10
    +4

    Sounds like they are full of sh1t. How do you have 'exclusive use' of a common property wall? Are these townhouses or multi-storey units? Owning/renting?

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 25/01/2019 - 03:01
      +2

      I usually wouldn't comment on something like this, but I feel compelled to on this occasion, and I agree entirely with djkelly; at least at first glance. Make sure you get some more informed opinions/don't sign/pay ANYTHING to ANYONE, until you know where you stand legally. The number$ you are talking are large, and I smell a rat here.

      • livingroompc on 25/01/2019 - 09:36

        The strata company uses just 1 company to deal with all the problems in the building. Thus they firstly, dont do a professional job and secondly they overcharge.

  • HighAndDry on 25/01/2019 - 01:19
    +2

    What's behind that wall OP? Another unit, common property, or another room in your unit?

    But yeah, for $5k, that's worth a consult with an actual lawyer.

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 25/01/2019 - 04:00
      +3

      The problem is hair-dryer, that something like this will not simply be able to be 'clarified' (or even 'financially quantified') via a simple one-time consultation with a 'random' lawyer. It will clearly require ACTUAL STRUCTURAL INSPECTION/S (on both sides of the wall, by the sounds of it), performed by appropriately qualified/certified 'tradies'. My advice to the OP is to tell all parties involved that they will not be paying a cent to anyone, until they are issued with some sort of legal decree clearly stating that they are legally obliged to. After that assertion is made, it will be interesting to see who 'steps up' and claims that the OP is obliged to pay them thousands of dollars. As stated above, I strongly suspect that as djkelly is loosely suggesting, someone is 'having a laugh' here and hoping to take the OP for a quick few thou$and.

      All that said, it seems that others contributing above don't seem to understand just how much contracting the services of 'lawyers' actually costs. Are peeps aware that to have an appropriately qualified lawyer actually come to the premises and perform a documented appraisal would itself run well over a thousand clams? and that is before that lawyer is then tasked with doing anything else at all/liaising with the other party etc.? It is sometimes a bit of a chuckle when the reflexive response in forums such as this is 'consult a lawyer'… because often it is quite clear that the peeps suggesting that have no idea whatsoever that as soon as you have a lawyer 'on the case', anything they do (phone call, email, reading a simple letter, drafting a simple response to it, etc.) will be charged to you at an extortionate rate. It literally runs into thousands of dollars almost instantly, and does not stop until you forcibly tell them that you are hereby terminating their services. Even after that point, you may well continue to receive quite a number of 'periodic' bills/charges, that you do not have the energy to challenge (so you simply pay them), depending on your individual circumstances.

      The unfortunate reality in Australia now is that if you personally contract a lawyer for any reason at all, you will end up paying them an absolute minimum of $5,000; regardless of what is or is not resolved; and that is just to 'get the ball rolling'.

      The 'moral of the story' is that if you can possibly get (i.e., 'are entitled to') FREE legal advice (think 'Legal Aid, etc.), then you certainly should avail yourself of that option; at least in the first instance.

    • livingroompc on 25/01/2019 - 09:35

      behind the wall is balcony of my unit

      • HighAndDry on 25/01/2019 - 09:43

        Ah then you might (not definitely) have an issue. A lot of strata developments basically have bylaws saying that even though all walls are common property, walls fully within your unit are effectively fully yours, for practical reasons. For example, if I want to put holes to hang stuff on a wall between my hallway and my bedroom, I can now do this without strata approval, since it really affects no one else (unlike external walls between me and a neighbour that would affect them).

        The flip side is that these bylaws also make you responsible for these same walls, again for practical reasons. Easiest example - after putting holes to hang stuff, you can't force strata to fix them when you're done using them, by the logic that it's common property. Basically a 'with great power comes great responsibility' kind of thing.

        Again, since it involves $5k, I'd still get that demand in writing from strata and have a lawyer look it over, but just keep in mind you might have to pay something.

  • Cheeper on 25/01/2019 - 01:23
    +1

    $13k to fix a leaking pipe?
    Something missing from this story?

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 25/01/2019 - 04:47

      You are of course correct/it is all almost certainly completely fabricated BS designed to 'manufacture profit'. If you were to examine the 'paperwork' I am pretty sure you would find a vaguely-worded claim that the leaky pipes caused $13k-worth of damage to other stuff that now needs to be rectified … or perhaps "$10k damage that will need to be fixed by peeps who are paid $3k to fix it" (i.e., $13k in total). Whereas perhaps in reality, the problem can be fixed by one honest old trady and his apprentice, in 1 day, for $1k.

      Curiously, it is the 'slow march' of ubiquitous video surveillance that will eventually put a stop to all this sort of crap (as well as a vast majority of 'opportunistic crime', etc.) in Australia. The UK has led the way here. During the first 2 weeks or so after the cameras went up all across the UK a couple of poms whinged for a few minutes. Then their cars got nicked, and they were able to pin the dudes who did it/get their cars back. Now even the poms don't whinge about having their streets under constant video surveillance. I certainly wouldn't either. It's a good thing.

    • livingroompc on 25/01/2019 - 09:34

      i would love to upload the invoice but im not sure if it goes against ozbargain policy

      • [Deactivated] on 25/01/2019 - 12:33
        +2

        Censor out all names and identifying parts like ABN, phone numbers and address.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 25/01/2019 - 12:53
          +2

          Yeah, do that; I would love to see this invoice (with all 'identifying information' removed of course). There are some very knowledgeable and selfless tradies here on Oz-Bargain, who sometimes chime in with their expert opinion (it's gold when that happens). If they had an invoice to go on, they would be infinitely more informed.

          • livingroompc on 26/01/2019 - 11:42

            @GnarlyKnuckles: how do i attach file?

          • livingroompc on 26/01/2019 - 11:53

            @GnarlyKnuckles: Ill just write it here
            Emergency Call Out 26/6/2018 Flooding
            Shop Kitchen Ceiling leaking water (flooded) $75 (NOT claimed)

            Investigate Unit 1, 2& 3 for water leak no leak detected Includuing pressure test $585 x3 =$1755 (NOT claimed)
            for hot and water lines. Investigate water leaking into shop 2 caused

            by a leak in (My unit) on copper tee hot water line behind kitchen cubboard internal brick wall $785 (NOT claimed)

            Isolate water to complex $200 (NOT claimed)

            Repair leaking water pipe $750 (NOT claimed)

            Resume water service and test for leaks all ok $150 (NOT claimed)

            Isolate electricty to the shop and lights effected $550 (Insurance Claimed)

            Replace water damaged ceiling $2900 (Insurance Claimed)

            Apply 3 coats of paint to new ceiling area $1000 (Insurance Claimed)

            Open wall and repair leak and repatch wall inside kitchen cupboard - Apply new render $1000 (Not claimed)

            Remove Kitchen oven and cupboard and replace $1400 (Insurance Claimed)

            Install new cupboard inside kitchen $1750 (Insurance Claimed)

            Reconnect electricity to shop from main $350 (Insurance Claimed)

            Clean out water and dispose rubbish in shop and unit $550 (Insurance Claimed)

            All the not claimed is $4715 + $500 excess fee
            is this reasonable?
            What are the reasonable prices? and can i fight for any of the prices i dont have to pay for?

  • spackbace on 25/01/2019 - 01:29
    +1

    Need Legal Advice

    Welcome to scotty, neil, jv & co. Please be advised that our consultancy rates are $500/hr payable in iTunes gift cards. If you agree with this, please continue.

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 25/01/2019 - 03:07

      Erm… this is not really a 'helpful' contribution to the dialogue spackers, and could actually be completely misconstrued by the OP… Anyways… juz sayin'.

      • payton on 25/01/2019 - 10:12

        Its clearly a joke, paying with itunes gc

  • jason101 on 25/01/2019 - 07:04
    +2

    Don't concern yourself with anything that has occurred to date, the facts will speak for themselves in the determination of this matter.

    1. Ask the body corporate manager for a letter articulating the reason why you are liable for the $5,000

    2. Review this letter and if you agree with the points made, pay the bill

    3. If you disagree with the points made, appoint legal counsel

    Only an extremely foolish body corporate manager would write to you dictating your requirement to pay costs without a sustainable reason as to why these costs are payable by you. The facts of your issue and the law will dictate who is responsible. Since both facts and law can be reasonably easily determined, the liability for costs should be relatively easy to determine.

    Also remember that the body corp manager on represents the owners corporation (ie you), so even if this falls in your favour you will be liable to pay a percentage of the cost in accordance with your unit entitlement share of the group. ie/ If there are 2 units of equal entitlement in the group, you're probably up for around 50%.

    Your management agreement with your body corporate manager may also stipulate that your provide them with the authority to spend money and engage trades on your behalf without consultation (especially in the case of emergency ie leaking water) - only you and your legal counsel will know the appropriateness of making reference to such clauses in your response.

    • livingroompc on 25/01/2019 - 08:15

      Thanks for the reply.
      Is the body corp manager the same person as the strata manager?
      The building has many residents over 50 units so paying the percentage is better. Unfortunately, builder insurance has expired so owners are in charge of all future damages.

      Thanks for all the reply everyone, i couldnt get any sleep last night because of this. I would like to send a reply to the strata manager regarding this but i dont know what to say. I will also seek free legal advice as mentioned previously.

      • jason101 on 25/01/2019 - 20:01
        +1

        It's really not worth losing sleep over, if the costs were yours to pay (and you owned a stand alone house) you would have already had to cough up to get the item fixed (albeit you would have had complete control over the trade selected). At least in a body corporate (a strata group is a form of body corporate so essentially names are interchangeable in your matter) the costs have been paid presumably already from collective funds held by the body corporate manager on behalf of your group. So if you are NOT liable as determined by your independent legal advice no problem (you're 1:50th or so liable depending on the unit entitlement break down), if you ARE liable for the costs - you have a good to 100% chance of asking and being accepted to be placed on a payment plan to pay down your debt.

        Even if the body corporate manager advises you they do not have the authority to do this - you can ask for a special resolution meeting to be convened (at your cost usually around $100-200) where you can present to the collective group your request for extended payment terms. Most groups that I have been involved with are owned by regular people who are genuinely sympathetic to their fellow unit owner and will come to the party. Their alternative is to ship you off to a debt collector and have you turn up at EVERY future meeting for the next 20 years raising hell about your matter and how you were treated - and most regular folk wont want this headache even if they are unsympathetic to your financial situation.

        Some posters on Ozb are extremely emotive and aggressive. I strongly encourage you not to "go to court" - because most body corporate groups have it buried in their by-laws that bad debts will simply be passed to debt collectors with all fees AND INTEREST passed back to you personally if this occurs. Be on the front foot - determine your liability - if its bad news for you and you are required to pay, negotiate your payment terms. Move on with your life. Owning property isn't just 10% annual compounding capital gain and zero outgoings ;-)

  • alz on 25/01/2019 - 08:32

    Move the F out

    • livingroompc on 25/01/2019 - 08:46

      Wish i could if i wasnt the owner

  • crashloaded on 25/01/2019 - 11:38

    Let them chase it in court, then provide your statement of evidence.

    Chances are if you refuse to pay, litigation costs to the BC will outweigh the 'loss' they think that you are liable for.

    I wouldn't even bother consulting a lawyer until you've been served a notice of claim.

  • askme69 on 25/01/2019 - 19:23

    I have no advice for you.

    But my parents neighbour (Investment property) and real estate had been notified of a leak in the bathroom for years and did nothing about it. Finally when it all came undone, he claimed it on starta and all the owners had to foot the bill of $10k to fix this issue that the owner was aware of for years.

    Another shit story" No units have aircon from new, some owners put them in. One owners air con blew up and claimed it on strata and they paid for this person's replacement aircon.

    This whole starta thing in Australia is a farce.

  • livingroompc on 26/01/2019 - 11:54

    Emergency Call Out 26/6/2018 Flooding
    Shop Kitchen Ceiling leaking water (flooded) $75 (NOT claimed)

    Investigate Unit 1, 2& 3 for water leak no leak detected Includuing pressure test $585 x3 =$1755 (NOT claimed)
    for hot and water lines. Investigate water leaking into shop 2 caused

    by a leak in (My unit) on copper tee hot water line behind kitchen cubboard internal brick wall $785 (NOT claimed)

    Isolate water to complex $200 (NOT claimed)

    Repair leaking water pipe $750 (NOT claimed)

    Resume water service and test for leaks all ok $150 (NOT claimed)

    Isolate electricty to the shop and lights effected $550 (Insurance Claimed)

    Replace water damaged ceiling $2900 (Insurance Claimed)

    Apply 3 coats of paint to new ceiling area $1000 (Insurance Claimed)

    Open wall and repair leak and repatch wall inside kitchen cupboard - Apply new render $1000 (Not claimed)

    Remove Kitchen oven and cupboard and replace $1400 (Insurance Claimed)

    Install new cupboard inside kitchen $1750 (Insurance Claimed)

    Reconnect electricity to shop from main $350 (Insurance Claimed)

    Clean out water and dispose rubbish in shop and unit $550 (Insurance Claimed)

    All the not claimed is $4715 + $500 excess fee
    is this reasonable?
    What are the reasonable prices? and can i fight for any of the prices i dont have to pay for?

    • livingroompc on 26/01/2019 - 11:54

      Apparantly this is the hot water line and it is owner responisbility since there is an exclusive use by law

  • livingroompc on 29/01/2019 - 07:23

    Anyone care to comment on the invoice?

    • rothsa on 30/01/2019 - 16:38

      You need 2 things. Firstly, legal advice on liability. Inspect your by-laws and see what you are responsible for and what you are not. Even if you are responsible for repairs, why would you be responsible for e.g., "Investigate Unit 1, 2& 3 for water leak no leak detected Includuing pressure test $585 x3 =$1755 (NOT claimed)". Why would you have to pay for them investigating (wrongly) 2 other units?
      Secondly, you need advice on quantum, and you can only get that by consulting a plumber. All the items seem excessive to me, but I am not a plumber. Even if you are liable, if you get a quote from a tradesman that is substantially lower than their repair quote, you can arguably pay that amount (as a reasonable amount). They can only sue you for the amount of their quote if they entered a contract with you (verbal or written) that specified those amounts and you agreed. If not, even if they take you to court, assuming after getting some legal advice that you are liable, you only need to pay their reasonable costs of repairs (i.e., their damages).

  • AlienC on 30/01/2019 - 16:49

    $13000 for a leaky pipe damn I need to become a plumber asap but I have other plans to get rich fast.. not telling :P

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