Near Accident - Who's at Fault - Me or The Corolla?

ywpn on 07/01/2019 - 02:44
Last edited 07/01/2019 - 17:00

https://goo.gl/7s4396

Please watch the video and let me know who you think is at fault here.
It's pretty uneventful, and there's no accident, but a friend of mine believes I'd be at fault if the 'Rolla and I collided, because I should have queued behind the Corolla instead of being next to it.

Scenario:
I'm approaching the intersection, the Corolla is on the right side of this wide one laner, and only decides to indicate left at the very last second when I'm side-by-side with it.
The Corolla toots me, and tailgates me for a few seconds and we go on our merry way.

The lane looks more than wide enough to fit 2 cars - right side to cross the intersection, left side to exit the intersection going with traffic.
I think I'm correct and wouldn't be at fault, but keen to get your thoughts.

[Edit] Thanks for your opinions, everyone! Really appreciate the civil and well-mannered feedback.

Poll Options

  • 15
    Me
  • 91
    The Corolla
Automotive

Comments

  • strikeout119 on 07/01/2019 - 02:48
    +5

    Put a poll. I would say you would be at fault because it is still technically one lane.

    • ywpn on 07/01/2019 - 02:52
      +2

      I'm voting for the Corolla :)

    • AdamFury on 07/01/2019 - 02:54
      +5

      I share the opinion that you would be at fault due to it being one lane but that's no excuse for the corolla to not use an indicator and have no right to beep you.

      • AustriaBargain on 07/01/2019 - 08:06

        Exactly, every indication that the corolla was going to slip ahead like the car in front of it. But maybe the corolla wasn't even aware the car in front of it was waiting to slip ahead, maybe it thought it was waiting to turn left.

    • AustriaBargain on 07/01/2019 - 08:03
      -1

      /thread

    • ThithLord on 07/01/2019 - 08:46

      Hand your license in.

  • DoaAn on 07/01/2019 - 02:54
    +5

    The Corolla should have been indicating and most people would have done what you did. But technically it is one lane so you would probably be found at least partly at fault.

  • gomertose on 07/01/2019 - 03:01
    +30

    https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/int…

    Left turns
    You must make a left turn from the left side of the road. When turning:
    * Signal left
    * Move close to the left side of the road
    * Keep to the left side of the road you are entering
    * Use a slip lane where one is provided.

    The Corolla failed to signal left (until op was nearly beside them) and failed to move close the the left side of the road (its position suggests it is intending to perform a right turn). If there was an accident and ops vid was submitted, then insurance will likely find in ops favour.

    • MountFranklin on 09/01/2019 - 21:14

      The rules you listed is up for interpretation.
      Corolla is technically always on the left side of the road as it's a bidirectional way road. If it wasn't on the left side then it would be on the right side driving into oncoming traffic.

      If you read further it makes more sense for multilane roads.

      When driving on a multi-lane road, you must turn left from the left lane, or from a lane with a pavement arrow pointing left

      Given that the corolla is allowed to change his mind, is on the "left" side of a bidirectional way road and the corolla can argue is "moving" to the left - then an insurance company may say corolla had right of way as the second car should cue behind the first car as it wasn't safe to pass (if it was safe enough then there wouldn't be an accident). Need a bird's eye view or footage from corolla.

      • nith265 on 10/01/2019 - 11:56

        …Corolla is technically always on the left side of the road as it's a bidirectional way road

        Pushing things to their logical extremes is indeed a fun mental game to play to test the validity of a law

        Unfortunately, I don’t think your interpretation of the Corolla being in the extreme right of their lane technically meaning that they are infact “close to the left side of the road” would hold up to legal argument.

  • [Deactivated] on 07/01/2019 - 03:10

    If it occurred on a Sunday then I'm blaming the Corolla driver without even watching the video.

  • trustnoone on 07/01/2019 - 04:46
    +5

    Honestly a hard one for me, the problem is because of the Corolla, they didn't turn signal left in time, they should always be on the left side of the road if turning left, they should keep left. Its also kind of obvious they reached the end of the road then went to go left in the last minute.

    The issue is I'm still with your mate because its a single lane road, while I've seen people do what you did, I don't think you're technically allowed to, I think technically you're supposed to queue up, just because theres enough room for two cars and a horse doesn't mean you get to legally drive two cars on that road, there could only be one. I'd say fault lies with both, apologies OP you might need a third poll option now :p.

  • Flanders on 07/01/2019 - 06:15
    +3

    This happened to me a few weeks ago, only much closer to an actual collision, and I'm not sure if they ever indicated (if they did indicate, it was after I passed them).
    I noticed car just sitting there with no indicator on, so I reasonably assumed they had stopped and didn't know which way they were going, maybe looking at a map or something.
    So many drivers seem to think it's fine to not indicate, as long as they don't get caught/fined for it. So many people seem to fail to realise that using indicator is an important safety rule, ie. Allows other road users to know in advance, what you are about to do.
    OP had no idea what that car in front was doing or about to do, they could have been lost, car could have been broken down, and in this instance, I think the corolla only indicated as an aggressive/reactive move to stop OP from passing.

  • whooah1979 on 07/01/2019 - 06:30
    -2

    The best way to approach this is to always block the view for the vehicle on the right. Another is to position oneself in the middle of the lane to prevent other vehicles from forming second line of traffic to either sides.

  • onetwothreefour on 07/01/2019 - 06:36
    +7

    I voted 'me' not sure what I did wrong though.

  • Prince K on 07/01/2019 - 07:57

    There’s a similar incident happened posted here except it happened in a car park and they collided, you should check it out. Btw I think they are at fault

  • Ryanek on 07/01/2019 - 08:04
    +2

    Corolla is at fault here. Not indicating would suggest he is going straight and you are technically just overtaking.

  • Meho2026 on 07/01/2019 - 08:26
    +3

    If you stop the video just after it hits 6 seconds, you can see the left indicator on. That could be a problem for you if you'd collided.

    • crashloaded on 07/01/2019 - 10:18
      +7

      You can also see the right indicator on just before that.

      • ywpn on 07/01/2019 - 10:25
        +1

        I actually didn't notice! Thanks for that!

        • crashloaded on 07/01/2019 - 10:44
          +1

          No worries, this would work in your favour if a collision occurred and they side swiped you, however if you ran into the rear of their vehicle i'd say you would be at fault.

  • cashless on 07/01/2019 - 08:38
    +1

    Corolla is at fault simply for being such a poor driver so you have got my vote. However, if you had been driving defensively (anticipating that this crap driver would make a stupid move) then you would have sat back and allowed them to go before you, thus avoiding any chance of a collision.

    • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 10:01
      -2

      However, if you had been driving defensively

      Issue is, since there's only one lane OP should never have been there, and if they wanted to do that - i.e. technically break the road rules - then they should be driving defensively.

      • pegaxs on 07/01/2019 - 10:48
        +7

        This is the road Rules for overtaking on the left…

        141 No overtaking etc to the left of a vehicle
        (1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the vehicle unless:
        (a) the driver is driving on a multi-lane road and the vehicle can be safely overtaken in a marked lane to the left of the vehicle, or
        (b) the vehicle is turning right, or making a U-turn from the centre of the road, and is giving a right change of direction signal and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle, or
        (c) the vehicle is stationary and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle.

        From the point of view of the footage, I would say that the corolla was in a position that was both a: stationary and b: going straight or turning right from the centre of the road.

        The corolla driver then changed their mind.

        • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 11:05
          +2

          Just going off of your quote:

          (b) the vehicle is turning right, or making a U-turn from the centre of the road, and is giving a right change of direction signal and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle, or

          This wasn't the case, the Corolla never indicated right, and

          (c) the vehicle is stationary and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle.

          If there was a collision, that'd be prima facie evidence it wasn't safe to overtake to the left.

          • pegaxs on 07/01/2019 - 11:57
            +1

            @HighAndDry:

            If there was a collision

            And if my auntie…

            Car wasn't moving and didn't move throughout the video that I saw.

            If anything, the corolla is still in the wrong due to turning left from the right side of the lane. The cars mere position on the road suggests it is turning right, indicator or not.

            27 Starting a left turn from a road (except a multi-lane road)
            (1) A driver turning left at an intersection from a road (except a multi-lane road) must approach and enter the intersection from as near as practicable to the far left side of the road.

            • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 11:59

              @pegaxs: True - I didn't say the other car was blameless, but considering the cars were stationary before the turn, it's even at least arguable that the Corolla did "approach and enter" the intersection to the left, at least after they decided to turn left (not something I'd argue, tbf).

              At the end of the day - one lane road, OP shouldn't have been there to begin with. If they want to 'skip' the queue, they gotta take responsibility for being careful about it.

              • pegaxs on 07/01/2019 - 12:16

                @HighAndDry: It's not a one lane road. That's the contention here. Is it a one lane road or is could it be considered 2 seperate lines of traffic closer to the intersection?

                (2) A driver on a road with 2 or more lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver, but without marked lanes, must drive so the driver’s vehicle is completely in a single line of traffic unless:
                …
                (c) the driver is entering or leaving the road, or
                (d) the driver is moving from one line of traffic to another line of traffic, or

                The intersection appears to be made to accommodate multiple lines of traffic, so it falls under RR-146, section 2.

                C: OP was leaving the road they are on to join another road.

                D: OP moved from the centre to the left line of traffic to turn the corner.

                • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 12:17

                  @pegaxs:

                  It's not a one lane road. That's the contention here.

                  I didn't think that was in contention. From OP:

                  I'm approaching the intersection, the Corolla is on the right side of this wide one laner

                  • pegaxs on 07/01/2019 - 12:29

                    @HighAndDry: I don't think OP is in any position to comment on the engineering of the road. Happy to be proved wrong.

                    From the video, the mere fact that OP was able to drive up beside the corolla suggests that this line of traffic was designed into the road to allow left turns to be able to be completed without having to wait for vehicles turning right…

                    InB4: "but you're not an engineer, either…"

                    • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 12:34

                      @pegaxs:

                      InB4: "but you're not an engineer, either…"

                      Dammit. I propose a motion to ban mind-readers from OzB…

                      In any case, that's a whole other argument, and I'm of the view that a wide road can be wide for any number of reasons (ease of turning, safety of pedestrians/cyclists, etc) and not necessarily that it means there're two lanes.

                      I don't think there were two lines of traffic here either, only space to accommodate two cars at the intersection - you need more space for moving cars than stationary ones (imo). And in any case, again just going off of your quote above:

                      (2) A driver on a road with 2 or more lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver, but without marked lanes, must drive so the driver’s vehicle is completely in a single line of traffic unless:
                      …
                      (c) the driver is entering or leaving the road

                      Being at the intersection (and then turning) seems to be leaving the road to me, on part of the Corolla.

                      • pegaxs on 07/01/2019 - 12:48

                        @HighAndDry: Well, I guess until we have a council representative chime in on this intersection, we will not be able to confirm the engineering design intent of this intersection.

                        But I stand by at least one thing, that the corolla is in the wrong based on nothing else above other than being far right to turn left. I also believe that everything else I have mentioned is also valid, but until we get that engineer to chime in on the road design, we'll just have to have differing opinions.

                        • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 12:53
                          +1

                          @pegaxs: Fair enough. Again - I'm not siding with the Corolla here, just that OP, in also doing something technically wrong, had an obligation to be extra-careful too. Cheers and Happy New Year!

  • pegaxs on 07/01/2019 - 08:40
    +1

    Corolla parked in right most part of lane with no indicator.

    Slip access to left suggests that if corolla wanted to turn left then they should have been to the left side of the road as per Aus. Road Rules.

  • Clear on 07/01/2019 - 08:51
    +1

    The Corolla does infact indicate at the last moment before it goes out of view.

  • dbui8743 on 07/01/2019 - 10:10
    +1

    This is similar to a case last year, with the Audi, where accident actually happened.

    you would be able to argue not at fault according to that story.

  • rodrigues on 07/01/2019 - 10:31
    +1

    im going to say his fault for not indicating earlier, not checking blind spot, and being on the other side of the road, additionally barmah drive gets pretty big near the end and most of the time two anes form as people turn either right or left onto mountain hwy.

  • ywpn on 07/01/2019 - 10:44
    +1

    I think I found my answer.

    Road Safety Road Rules 2009
    http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/ltobjst8.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/407B49EE3C518A9CCA257C7800198F1A/$FILE/09-94sra012%20authorised.pdf

    Page 19:
    A driver turning left at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection from within the left lane

    Page 32:
    A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection from within the right lane

    • Ughhh on 07/01/2019 - 10:48
      +2

      multi-lane road

      Was it a muilti lane road though?

      • ywpn on 07/01/2019 - 10:54

        I think so - the picture on page 27 looks similar to the intersection in the video (with the exception of the One Way sign).

        • Savas on 07/01/2019 - 11:09

          But the picture on page 27 isn't a multi lane road?

        • pegaxs on 07/01/2019 - 13:07

          It could fall under the "a road with 2 or more lines of traffic" rather than "marked multi lane road."

  • ronnknee on 07/01/2019 - 11:07
    +1

    I think technically you would be at fault as it is a single lane road for undertaking them. However, most people would do what you did as it seemed counter intuitive that the Corolla was turning left (not indicating, not on the left side on the road, chose to wait behind the car in front instead of turning left).

  • buffalo bill on 07/01/2019 - 11:11
    +2

    You could literally fit a semi-trailer to the left of the turning Corolla and make a left turn onto the dual lane road. That's hardly keeping to the left on Corolla's behalf.

    Given that both cars intended to turn left when clear, and the damage would have been to the left side of the Corolla (and right of OP's car), from experience most police and insurance outcomes would deduce that the Corolla did not give way, especially given clear road rules on vehicle position when turning and giving way.

    The above would likely only apply if he pulled out while you were passing or just after. If before, you would likely be at fault for rear-end collision, not stopping/slowing at intersection etc… Your dashcam wouldn't help you if you went squarly up his clacker.

  • c0balt on 07/01/2019 - 11:29
    +2

    My car isn't that tall, so when I come up to these types of intersections I stay in the middle of the wide single lane so that a car can't squeeze either side of me and block my view of oncoming traffic.

    Although that is the widest single lane I think I've ever seen. If I stayed in the middle, there would probably be room either side for other cars to squeeze in.

  • Godric on 07/01/2019 - 12:37
    +2

    The Cyclist

  • xuqi on 07/01/2019 - 12:38
    +1

    This happened to me a couple of years ago in WA. The guy sitting at the far side of a wide single lane unmarked road (without indicators).

    He turned left hitting the front of my car (3 months old S4, damaging pretty much the entire right side of it (front to rear), including the front wheel so I could no longer steer.

    I provided a written statement to his insurer, together with my dash-cam video footage showing position of the other car & lack of indication.

    Initially, I though to myself; Here we go, damn insurance, however they wrote off my car & paid me out (6 figure sum) without finding me at fault. Start to finish (money in my bank account), it took 6 days.

  • serpserpserp on 07/01/2019 - 12:39
    +2

    The video is great, but I feel this scenario would be better expressed and dissected through the medium of MS Paint?

  • serpserpserp on 07/01/2019 - 12:44

    The answer is that you would be at fault if anything happened cause it is a one lane road, but judgement call for drivers needs to be used. Corolla was tucked up behind right turner like he was going straight or right. If there was less room maybe i'd get annoyed if you came too close to the car, but looked like plenty of space. Maybe the guy got a fright because he was going to mosey on into the left lane and did his head check and BAM you were just there, but he should give it a rest.

  • noyesmaybeok on 07/01/2019 - 12:46
    +2

    How much longer until our automated overlords arrive?

  • nith265 on 07/01/2019 - 13:57
    +1

    As with every car crash there is at fault for breaking road law and at fault for paying for damages.

    Road rules:

    I feel @pegaxs linked to the correct rules:

    You’ve done nothing wrong however the other driver could get a ticket for the rule 27 bit.

    Civil Damages:

    If they moved to the left just as you past them on the left and they hit you then they would be mostly at fault – they hit you and their actions effectively caused it all to happen.

    I’d assert that you were driving in a reasonable manner, the other driver wasn’t by not checking their blind spot and breaking a road rule with their turn position.

    However both drivers owe each other a duty of care and it was within your control to wait a little longer to avoid it all happening - perhaps the other side would try and squeeze a little bit of contributory negligence out of you.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join