Not Being Able to Get a Refund Credit on Stolen (NSW Transport) Opal Card Fares

Lnudgebargain on 03/01/2019 - 23:20
Last edited 04/01/2019 - 00:53 by 1 other user

So the other day I must have lost my registered (NSW Transport) Opal card or had it stolen, and didn't notice it until today when I couldn't find it, opened the app and saw it had been used the past few days for a total of $16.02 worth of fares. I put a block on it straight away and transferred the remaining credit onto a new card I bought and registered to my account. I then rang up Opal's customer service to try and get the $16.02 the thief had spent credited onto my new card.

To my surprise - this is not a thing. I got told a big no over the phone, told I should treat registered Opal cards like cash and they won't refund the stolen fares under any circumstances. I had lived in the U.K. for a few years where if you had your registered Oyster card stolen, besides the remaining balance they would credit you back any stolen fares so I just assumed that this was standard here as well, especially on registered cards. These ain't iTunes gift cards after all. It's only $16.05 but really it's the principle that counts, especially after the shutdown of the North Shore Train Line this week, their service and attitude towards their customers has just irked me.

Am I just being an entitled prick after being spoilt by the London Oyster card service and how they refund and help customers whose cards have been stolen and used? Is this standard practice in any other cities as well with registered transport cards? Has anyone else been in this situation before?

Travel

Related Stores

Opal Card - NSW Government
Opal Card - NSW Government

Comments

  • jjjaar on 04/01/2019 - 00:08
    +2

    My first question is why do you continuously lose your travelcards?

    I’ve always thought to treat them like cash, like gift cards. I have a yearly myki though and I know that I would just lose x number of days it took me to realise, as opposed to any topped up money on it.

    • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 08:24

      My first question is why do you continuously lose your travelcards?

      Good question, although it's only been twice now I guess it's the combination of being a bit of a clutz and continuously taking them in and out of pockets to tap on and off I suppose?

      • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 11:55

        These ain't iTunes gift cards after all. It's only $16.05 but really it's the principle that counts

        The principle seems to be: Why do you think someone else should suffer the loss when you keep losing the cards?

  • Pharos5 on 04/01/2019 - 00:11

    Never thought about it. Maybe London's transport is still publicly owned and that's the difference? I guess how would you prove it was used by someone else?

    • HardQuiz on 04/01/2019 - 00:20

      Travel pattern ?

      • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 08:26

        Yes when it happened to me in London they could tell from the travel pattern. I'm not sure if they have they had any other built in metrics but it seemed like a pretty slick operation when I spoke to them about it.

        • whooah1979 on 04/01/2019 - 08:43

          Yes when it happened to me in London they could tell from the travel pattern.

          That's how they keep track of terrorists.

  • juventino on 04/01/2019 - 00:20
    +20

    what happen to the other more important principle "where you take full responsibility over your belongings instead of putting the blame onto others ?

    Did you get that principle stolen as well?

    • payton on 04/01/2019 - 01:03
      +5

      savage, that last bit

    • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 08:34

      what happen to the other more important principle "where you take full responsibility over your belongings instead of putting the blame onto others ?

      Did you get that principle stolen as well?

      So hypothetically if someone stole your credit card and racked up a huge bill before you could cancel it, you would shrug your shoulders and go "Tsk tsk tsk shame on me for letting that happen, lesson learned" and not seek a chargeback on the fraudulent transactions?

      • SnoozeAndLose on 04/01/2019 - 08:48

        Banks or credit card provider have causes in their T&C to protect card holder for fraud or in the situation when card vet stolen.

        But Opal dont think they have this kind of protection sorry.

        You can get a police report of stolen opal card but doesnt mean you can vet your money back from Opal

  • Sage on 04/01/2019 - 00:31
    +1

    Doesn't sound like a lot.
    I don't even consider this theft, finding an Opal card.

    Besides, there's no proof it wasn't being used by the real owner. Anyone could call up and ask for the credit to be refunded to a new card.

    • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 08:41
      +2

      When I've found other people's Opal cards I've always handed them in or called the owner if they had their number on it. I treat it like someone's credit card especially since most people have it linked to it.

    • armdrags on 04/01/2019 - 10:23
      +5

      Why wouldn't this be theft? If somebody decided not to return or hand in something that doesn't belong to them but instead keep it and use it for themselves it would be theft. It would be considered opportunity theft.

  • RockyRaccoon on 04/01/2019 - 01:35
    +1

    Damn, and I was hoping the RBA would refund me the $50 I lost the other day.

    • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 11:56

      Of course not unless… you had the serial number of the $50 note registered to you, and the RBA is able to block use of it when it is stolen, and other major cities have protection against fraudulent use of said registered $50 note then sure thing!

  • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 02:08
    +4

    To my surprise - this is not a thing. I got told a big no over the phone, told I should treat registered Opal cards like cash and they won't refund the stolen fares under any circumstances.

    Who do you suppose should wear that $16.05? The taxpayers…. or yourself, who obviously didn't look after your card?

    • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 12:01
      -4

      The taxpayer. It should be up to Transport NSW to take responsibility and ensure that fraudulent use amongst their registered users is kept to a minimum - like other major transport cities in the world do such as London (Oyster) and NYC (MetroCard).

      • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 12:27

        It should be up to Transport NSW to take responsibility and ensure that fraudulent use amongst their registered users is kept to a minimum

        How do they tell the difference between fraudulent and legitimate use (remembering that the card can legitimately be used by someone you give permission to)?

        Next minute, new post "NSW Transport randomly blocked my Opal card and wants me to provide identification".

        What do you do when you lose cash?

        Self responsibility - google it!

      • whooah1979 on 04/01/2019 - 13:46
        -2

        The taxpayer. It should be up to Transport NSW

        The taxpayers of NSW shouldn't have to subsidise public transport any more than what they're doing now.

        • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 17:42
          +1

          The taxpayers of NSW deserve a ticketing system that’s on par with all the major cities in the world which would need less subsidising in the long run.

          • whooah1979 on 04/01/2019 - 18:53

            @nudgebargain: Of course they deserve it. That means not to reimburse lost tickets.

          • HighAndDry on 07/01/2019 - 11:57

            @nudgebargain: I mean, yes - but I'd think not wearing the losses incurred by irresponsible users would help in that.

  • ilikedeals on 04/01/2019 - 04:37
    +6

    You can't possibly expect Opal to refund all presumed stolen charges.. It would lead to people paying for expensive trips (e.g. airport line) and then calling up to say "their card got stolen" for a refund!

    Ideally there would be some sort of alert feature for registered card users with the app, like a notification each time you tap off somewhere. This could potentially allow people to block their cards straight away if they notice unauthorised charges/travel in real time

    • whooah1979 on 04/01/2019 - 06:06

      alert feature for registered card users with the app

      Passengers are already complaining about the cost of the fares. An app would make the fares more expensive.

      • kerfuffle on 04/01/2019 - 06:08
        +2

        There’s already an app for the Opal card

        Alerts won’t help if their card is lost or stolen and they don’t have the app though

        • whooah1979 on 04/01/2019 - 06:09

          Does the current app send out SMS notifications for unauthorised charges?

          • kerfuffle on 04/01/2019 - 06:20
            +5

            @whooah1979: No. I mean, how is the app supposed to know which ones are authorised charges and which ones aren’t? For example, you might go from Chatswood to Town Hall and back for work. Then on your day off from work, you decide to catch the train to Newcastle to visit, which you only do once a year. Then two weeks later, work needs you to go to Cronulla for a company conference which happens every two years.

            For those who have regular infrequent travel patterns, the notifications would be annoying, although you could argue you could turn them off, but what if your Opal card gets stolen and used to go to Bathurst and you don’t know that … because you turned off your notifications for unauthorised trips?

            Edit: Wow, two negs for actually thinking 🙄 To the neggers, I'd like to hear your ideas …

            • Olokun on 04/01/2019 - 07:20
              +1

              @kerfuffle: I guess it would be possible with the app using location services to determine that the card was used where the phone currently isn’t. Obviously this would require the app to always be running in the background and chewing through battery as well as the service be close to real-time

              • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 18:23

                @Olokun:

                I guess it would be possible with the app using location services to determine that the card was used where the phone currently isn’t.

                The cards are actually transferable and allowed to be used be those that the owner passes the card to. How do would the comapny know who's using what?

                Imagine the inconvenience of having cards blocked because the locations didn't line up.. or if someone left their phone at home or lost their phone.

                Got to be realistic - nothing is foolproof. Besides, it's a travel card - which means it can only be used forom local public transport - it's not something that can be used to accumulate a large amount of spending in a short period.

    • nudgebargain on 08/01/2019 - 07:46

      @ilikedeals You are right on the money with your ideas for a better designed system for a better overall user experience.

      Even something as simple as real time notifications when you tap on or off like a bank card or Apple Pay can go a long way. I know Monzo in the U.K. do real time notifications for their debit card but don’t know if any of the big 4 banks in Australia do this but it is possible if the effort was there to do it.

      Also expanding the use of debit or credit card tap on across the network, and not penalising its use by making it more expensive. Also means the bank will assume the risk for unauthorised use of it.

      Another thing is the return of weekly, and possibly monthly or yearly tickets so cancelling it after a day or two is not a big deal and won’t cost the user anything in lost fares.

      These are just a few ideas that help give the Opal card system a better overal user experience.

      Also in this research I found out that if you are a tourist using an Opal card you can only get a refund on your unused balance if you have an australian bank account which is pretty outrageous!

  • EightImmortals on 04/01/2019 - 08:04
    +1

    Welcome to Australia.

  • pegaxs on 04/01/2019 - 08:12
    +8

    Am I just being an entitled prick…

    Just a tad. You lost the card, not them. It’s like losing cash or any tap and go card, and that is exactly how they explained it.

    Added to this is the fact that $16 is a very very cheap lesson to learn. I expected to come into this thread and it be hundreds of dollars. At the end of the day, you lost the card, not Opal. Your issue is with the person who used it. They are the one you need to seek reimbursement from.

    If Opal refunded every person that claimed their card was “stolen”, then this would be a great little scam. Get a card, put money on it, use it, call up when the credit was gone and claim it was stolen and get your money back.

    • PeterSnoot on 04/01/2019 - 08:22
      +2

      Sorry @nudgebargain but I think @pegaxs summed it up nicely. If you lost a twenty dollar note on the train, you'd be in a similar position.

      • pegaxs on 04/01/2019 - 09:09
        +1

        If you lost a twenty dollar note on the train…

        Just call the RBA and explain to them that someone else spent your $20 and they will give you a free replacement.

        • KaTst3R on 04/01/2019 - 10:52

          You gotta prove that $20 was yours in the first place! So which APP do I register my banknote?

    • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 08:39
      -1

      @pegaxs To be honest, if my expectations hadn't been set in London then this is the attitude I would've had and just copped it. I was also curious if other Transport cards in the world refund stolen fares and if Sydney was the outlier, or London was the outlier. Remember that Opal has only been around for a few years - far less than most other cities with smart transport cards and therefore less mature when it comes to implementing these sort of protections.

  • quietsarcasm on 04/01/2019 - 08:35
    +2

    Is stolen really the right word to use in this situation? Was the card taken from you? Or was it lost by you and found by someone else?

    • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 18:45

      Is stolen really the right word to use in this situation?

      Using the word "stolen" tends to garner a bit more sympathy than simply saying that they "lost" it.

  • Masterpupil on 04/01/2019 - 13:57
    +3

    I kind of agree with OP in the sense that they have streamlined this system from one where they would be issuing tickets personally to one where they have been able to significantly reduce costs by using these travel cards with no verification steps required for the card when being used. All the risk has transferred from the issuer to the user.
    Credit card issuers refund improperly incurred charges.
    Potentially if the travel card was debiting funds from a bank account a charge back might be possible.
    Ultimately if London's travel network can do it, the Sydney can surely.

    • nudgebargain on 04/01/2019 - 17:49
      -1

      I also saw that the NYC MetroCard does it as well. Also a thing to note with other major markets is that they sell monthly and yearly tickets so some sort of Buyer Protection if your card gets lost or stolen is a main feature in those cards.

      I think it comes down to a few things
      - Sydney’s Opal card was 15 years behind schedule when it was finally released so it’s far less mature than other cards in other cities.
      - This also means that they haven’t had to deal with fraud as much and would be a low priority for their product manager as they try and iron out the kinks in their system to get something viable out there.
      - They don’t encourage the use of people’s own credit cards yet. And on the networks that currently support it, the fares are actually higher. This would help consumers against fraud.
      - Opal’s fare structure doesn’t encourage long term use for the Sydney working class (I.e no monthly or yearly).

  • Savas on 04/01/2019 - 16:49
    +4

    Do people release this isn't like a paper card that has like one or two trips on it? Considering I have my credit card linked as they encourage, I'd want the security that I could get refunded the money. If you were to buy a car that then turned out to be stolen you can't keep it, so i don't know how the government can happily take stolen money.

    • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 18:31
      +1

      If you were to buy a car that then turned out to be stolen you can't keep it, so i don't know how the government can happily take stolen money.

      The thing with the OPs situation is, it took him a few days to realise that the card was missing. By the time he reported it, $16 or so had been used. OP did get the remaining credit that was on the card transferred to a new card. OP wants the credit that was used before he reported the card lost/stolen to be reimbursed back into his account. Using your example above with the stolen car, it'd be like the owner asking for the number of kms driven on the car to be reversed so the odometer is back to the figure it was when it went missing. That is not going to happen.

      Had OP reported the missing card earlier, then the loss would have been much smaller - although $16 is already a small loss for carelessness.

      • Savas on 05/01/2019 - 13:04

        No it's not because they are stealing $16 so it's like someone stealing $16 from you.

        • bobbified on 05/01/2019 - 13:09

          they are stealing $16.

          I agree that $16 is missing, but who do you suggest stole it?

          NSW Transport certainly didn't steal it because they provided the relevant services.

          • Savas on 05/01/2019 - 14:08

            @bobbified: Even though TfNSW might have been unaware it's still a fraudulent transaction, so i think they should have to give it back. Hopefully eventually they would catch the thief and recover the money but it seems like Gladys doesn't care about her public transport users who get stolen from and continues to decline the number of transit officers.

            • bobbified on 05/01/2019 - 16:58

              @Savas: You're saying that the person who loses their card has no responsibility whatsoever?

              In that case, everyone can just claim back what they've used each year by saying their card got stolen.

              • Savas on 05/01/2019 - 18:29

                @bobbified: So now we can go around stealing everything because the person who is getting stuff stolen from is responsible?

                • bobbified on 05/01/2019 - 20:20

                  @Savas: The OP LOST his card and someone used it.

                  The person that used it is responsible. Not the service provider. Until (if) they find that person, OP should bear the loss.

                  During the few days that the card got used, even OP didn't know it was missing. How in the world would TNSW know that it's being used without authorisation and why would they be responsible? They blocked the card and transferred the credit as soon as it was reported stolen to prevent further unauthorised use.

                  This is exactly like I've said in another post recently - personal responsibility doesn't exist anymore and it's always someone else's fault. waaah waaah!

                  https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/6800981/redir

                  • nudgebargain on 05/01/2019 - 22:07
                    -1

                    @bobbified: @bobbified So if you had a $100 balance on your Amazon account and someone hacked into your Amazon account and ordered $50 worth of items… and as soon as you saw the email confirmation you reported your Amazon account as hacked and changed your password. Would you then accept Amazon not refunding you the $50 because they say they blocked your account as soon as you reported unauthorised use of it and you should man up and accept personal responsibility for having an easy to guess password?

                    What if they ordered $200 worth of goods that used your $100 balance and debited $100 on your saved credit card on file… you'd be hitting up both Amazon and your credit card company to get a refund, right? Remember most registered Opal cards such as mine have credit card and Auto Top Up linked to it.

                    If the person that took my Opal Card hit the $40 Auto Top Up and started using that… would I still be expected to take "personal responsibility" despite the Tap On generating an unauthorised use of my credit card?

  • JayEmmGee on 05/01/2019 - 17:36
    +4

    From the London Oyster page on stolen cards:

    Once we have confirmed you're the registered Oyster card owner, we will calculate the pay as you go balance, or Travelcard/Bus & Tram Pass value, from the day you reported it as stolen and transfer to your replacement card.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/stolen-oys…

    So nothing different from the Sydney Opal. You reported the card stolen/lost and the balance from the day it was reported was transferred

    • nudgebargain on 05/01/2019 - 22:01
      +1

      Interesting that this is their written policy. In practice (this was late 2017) I got credited the full amount the thief in London took from the card. And I've known this happen to a couple of others over there as well. I'm pretty certain that what I experienced there was the norm and it genuinely surprised me when they offered the full refund on the fraudulent fares - it was offered straight away like it was standard operating procedure.

      Also it's worth noting that the London Oyster card system is a huge target for fraud so it's a well trodden path for the TFL since 2003. I believe they've had to deal all sorts including organised crime scams that skim people's cards then cash out the balance and claim the £10 deposit on them. The Sydney Opal system just isn't mature enough nor have the organised crime syndicates that operate here like London does.

      • RockyRaccoon on 06/01/2019 - 10:18

        BTW the Opal card is based on the Oyster card.

        Also just because they offered it to you, doesnt mean its standard practice. which is what your argument is based on.

        as you say

        like it was standard operating procedure.

        LIKE and IT IS are two different meanings

        Thanks JayEmmGee for your research

        • nudgebargain on 06/01/2019 - 10:32
          -1

          @RockyRaccoon Don't get trapped in your own Google bubble - I can guarantee you it is their policy if you called them. As I said they have been dealing with fraud since 2003 on their cards and it's a well trodden path for them. I will buy a TV at full price from Harvey Norman if I'm wrong!

          • RockyRaccoon on 06/01/2019 - 11:10

            @nudgebargain: No I am not going to call them, this is your issue not mine.

            As for your organised crime comment, we do have syndicates here, we imported them from the UK, Italy, Lebanon, Hong Kong and other countries, and we even created some home grown ones as well. Not to mention the Ozbargain syndicates …😊

  • neyo on 09/01/2019 - 04:23

    Am I just being an entitled prick after being spoilt by the London Oyster card service and how they refund and help customers whose cards have been stolen and used?

    Yes

  • Baghern on 13/01/2019 - 20:26

    How do they know that you didn't use the $16

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