Sold Camera on eBay and Buyer Is Claiming Faulty. HELP!

Lmrbighead on 26/09/2018 - 16:56
Last edited 26/09/2018 - 17:37 by 1 other user

Hi guys,

Just need some help/direction/advice on the following eBay situation:

I've recently sold a camera on ebay and shipped it. He has received the item. He said the camera doesn't turn on anymore. He said he called Panasonic and the mainframe needs replacing.
I've only had the camera from a few months and it has worked perfectly fine every time with no startup issues. The funds are on hold at the moment on Ebay.
He said: " I spoke to a technician at Panasonic today over the phone and he said the camera needs a new mainboard, he also said it is no longer under warranty so to get it working I need to pay a total of $341. This is made up of $220 for the mainboard, $88 for labour and $33 freight. Would you be willing to reimburse me $250 to help me cover the cost."

Not sure if I should send the $250 or???

Any help or advice would be great…kind of stuck here.

Regards,

General Discussion

Related Stores

eBay Australia
eBay Australia
Marketplace

Comments

  • HighAndDry on 26/09/2018 - 17:00
    +77

    You're probably getting scammed if the camera worked before posting and you packaged it property (so no damage in-transit). Speaking to a technician over the phone to diagnose a hardware problem and getting such detailed quotes? Ha, the buyer's not even trying at that point.

    Also, how generous he's not even asking for the full price of the repairs - would you be willing to be out of pocket a further ~$80 if you paid good money for a working camera but received a broken one?

    DEFINITELY DO NOT send any money. Send evidence that it was working before posting. Request a written itemized quote from the "Panasonic Technician" noting the camera's serial number.

    • mrbighead on 26/09/2018 - 17:31
      +9

      It does feel that way. The buyer does not even have any reviews and it was definitely packaged properly.

      Thanks for the direction. You and everyone else here are awesome. I have some video clips that I recorded from the camera prior to sending it, although it has been a few months. I guess would that be evidence?

      Thanks again for the advice.

      • HighAndDry on 26/09/2018 - 17:33
        +1

        No worries. EBay and Paypal do often side with the buyer over sellers, but I think even they'd need more than just a phone call with a random technician to rule in favor of the buyer if it came to it. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

      • BanannaMan on 27/09/2018 - 22:59
        +3

        on a side note - when I sell items I always ask for minimum 10 feedback but always look for 50+ and cancel their bids here if they break the rules
        https://www.ebay.com.au/help/selling/listings/selling-auctio…

        I would personally let him lodge a dispute with ebay/paypal and let that play out with your evidence
        At worst, they will have to fork out the cost to ship back to you but sounds like a scam to me

        Peannut

  • mctubster on 26/09/2018 - 17:08
    +10

    If you only had the camera a few months isn't warranty still valid?

    If it was me I would get the buyer to return the camera, refund them and then deal with it through warranty.

    Hopefully you have close up photos with serial number and identifying marks just in case they are being scummy and try to swap it with a dud or other.

    • HighAndDry on 26/09/2018 - 17:18
      +1

      Agreed if it it's ruled against OP, but I wouldn't agree to the return (and certainly wouldn't offer to take it back) just yet. It could be seen by eBay as conceding the case which might incur fees, charges, postage for OP.

      • Scab on 26/09/2018 - 18:38

        but I wouldn't agree to the return

        If the buyer initiates a claim, you have to accept the return.

        And if it's an eBay claim, you also have to pay for the return shipping.

        • HighAndDry on 27/09/2018 - 11:16

          If the buyer initiates a claim, you have to accept the return.

          What? No, only if there's something wrong with it, or if sold through eBay Plus right? Sellers don't have to always accept returns.

          • Scab on 27/09/2018 - 11:31
            +3

            @HighAndDry:

            Sellers don't have to always accept returns.

            They do, if the buyer starts an eBay Guarantee claim, the seller has to accept it and pay for postage.

            • SaberX on 27/09/2018 - 22:33
              +1

              @Scab: any directions on how to start an ebay guarantee claim? we recently purchased some tissue paper for gifts and the colour that arrived was not the tone described or in pictures, so not appropriate. we don't mind returning it but don't want to pay postage so wondering how you go about having the seller cop the postage for the mistake?

        • Scab on 29/09/2018 - 07:56
          +5

          Gotta love idiotic neggers, who don't have a clue.

          What I posted was factual.

          Instead of cowardly negging, tell me where I'm wrong.

          • Pricebeat on 01/10/2018 - 16:43

            @Scab: I sold a phone on ebay. Buyer claimed it doesn’t work in Australia and filed claim via ebay money back guarantee even though listing stated no returns accepted. I refused to accept the return and posted all the links indicating it’s compatible with any Australian networks. We messaged each other in the claim section for few days and I insisted on not accepting returns at any cost. Buyer gave up and closed the return.
            Moral: you don’t always have to accept returns.

            • Scab on 01/10/2018 - 17:01
              +1

              @Pricebeat: You do have to accept returns, you just got lucky.

              If a claim is pursued, all the buyer has to do is send it to your registered address.

              If you refuse, the buyer just simply has to show eBay they sent it to you.

              Your PayPal account will be debited, and if it goes into arrears they'll eventually sell the debt to a debt collector.

              That's the peril of eBay, it's skewed towards the buyer and the seller can't do shit.

  • altomic on 26/09/2018 - 17:18
    +14

    Once received back then leave feedback saying something like "sorry the camera was faulty, it must have been damaged in transit" just so other sellers (if the buyer is trying to scam others) can see he has bought and claimed faulty goods.

    Ask for him to send it back. Pay for the return postage and just suck it up. It isn't worth your stress to be worried about this. Return postage is a small price to pay.

    I wouldn't bother with any option for the buyer except to return the item

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 10:07

      Thanks for this. Agreed. Will try to get the buyer to return the item if he continues.

      • LukeB on 28/09/2018 - 13:34
        +1

        Sounds like the kind of buyer that would return a brick, to which then Paypal automatically takes the money from your account and pays the buyer and you're out a camera. It's lose lose.

        • [Deactivated] on 29/09/2018 - 15:37
          -1

          If it takes $330 to fix it then OP can still fix it himself.

          If it were me I'd ask the buyer to prove postage was the problem otherwise it is a second hand camera without warranty and can become faulty anytime. Buyer should know that.

    • AustriaBargain on 28/09/2018 - 02:48
      +6

      I dunno. If the camera costs $2,000, and the scammer only wants $250 to close the dispute and settle the funds, then OP stands to gain $1,750 minus fees if he lets himself be scammed. but if he does what you say, then the scammer will smash the camera with a hammer, post it back to you so he doesn't get banned or risk a charge of theft, and then you gain $0, actually you lose money because you paid for return postage.

      • [Deactivated] on 29/09/2018 - 15:39

        He can't smash. He already described what was wrong. It seems like an innocent electrical fault.

  • 87percent on 26/09/2018 - 17:25
    +3

    Did you note down any sort of serial number of the camera? What's the bet the buyer has the same camera that is faulty

    • HighAndDry on 26/09/2018 - 17:28

      Common scam but unlikely in this case because buyer is asking for money reimbursement instead of just straight refund for broken goods.

      • ozhunter on 26/09/2018 - 18:32
        +1

        If he asks for a refund he would have to send the camera back.

        This way, he gets to keep the camera and get some money back.

        • Scab on 26/09/2018 - 18:40
          +1

          If he asks for a refund he would have to send the camera back.

          So, the seller has to pay for the return shipping.

          • AustriaBargain on 28/09/2018 - 02:49

            @Scab: But gets to keep a working camera worth at least $250.

  • Scab on 26/09/2018 - 18:36
    +1

    Not sure if I should send the $250 or?

    No, get them to return the camera for a refund.

    You'll have to do that anyway if they make a claim.

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 10:04

      Definitely gonna ask them to return the camera and suck up whatever cost/fees it is.

      • Scab on 27/09/2018 - 12:06

        You'll have to wear the shipping cost, but you should be reimbursed for the selling fees.

      • tempura on 28/09/2018 - 08:45
        +7

        Expect the worst because from this scenario, buyer (scammer) will break the camera before shipping it back to you.

        So all-in-all, you'll get a broken camera but no $$$ however buyer (scammer) doesn't get anything from it too.

        Even if you ask eBay, I don't think they'll suggest accepting the proposal of you paying the $$$ because this means buyer (scammer) win the camera and win the cash. double dip!

  • armdrags on 26/09/2018 - 19:09
    +3

    Did you buy postage insurance? I always do for situations like this. You can easily claim for damage during transit and get them to send the camera back to you.

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 10:04
      +2

      Good idea. Unfortunately, I did not. Silly me. Will be more careful next time.

      • Scab on 27/09/2018 - 12:09
        +5

        Postage insurance is almost worthless for this situation, as you would have to prove the fault was caused by the transit damage.

        Insurance is good for loss and physical damage.

        • armdrags on 28/09/2018 - 05:47

          It's still better to have insurance rather than none. If it was working before sending and faulty according to the buyer after delivery then how can they prove the damage was not caused during transit? It's always a challenge to make a successful insurance claim in any situation. In this case maybe they'll deny the claim but maybe they'll honour the claim. Nothing to lose.

          • Scab on 28/09/2018 - 05:53
            +1

            @armdrags:

            If it was working before sending and faulty according to the buyer after delivery then how can they prove the damage was not caused

            That's not how it works, you have to prove transit caused the damage rather than it didn't cause it.

            Getting money out of Australia Post is like getting blood from a stone.

            • armdrags on 28/09/2018 - 06:19

              @Scab: We can say the camera became faulty due to damage during transit. Maybe they might give in if you keep pressing them. Still better than nothing. I was able to claim $100 from them once for a lost parcel but that was years ago. It was fairly easy and they sent me the money no questions asked. One time I made a complaint for bad customer service and got a free express satchel but I had to call them everyday. Just keeping trying and don't give up. There's nothing to lose.

              • Scab on 28/09/2018 - 06:23

                @armdrags: Yes but lost parcel is easy to claim for.

                Saying transit caused the item to not work isn't. .

                If it were that easy, it would be a scamer's heaven.

                Send a faulty item to a friend then claim it.

  • taoz on 26/09/2018 - 19:38

    just get it returned to you.

  • BertieBrown on 26/09/2018 - 20:12
    +5

    highanddry pretty well said everything I was going to say, but the $220 ‘can you help me’ shenanigans really does take the cake for trying-it-on. Clearly OP has encountered another first rate scummified sleezatron.

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 10:03

      Thanks for your reply. Yeah definitely has put an annoying dint in my current life situation - was going to use the money towards someone else, but oh well. Live and learn!

      • Quantumcat on 27/09/2018 - 10:05

        They might give up once they realise you're not just going to send them money

  • Xiaomi on 27/09/2018 - 00:52
    +19

    You're getting professionally scam. I run a decent size eBay store, and we experienced the same thing once before.

    Request the item to be returned, but also keep in mind the sender may edit the return slip and purposely have the item sent to a different address other than yours, to make sure you do not get it and it gets returned back to the sender after the delivery was not successful.

    The sender may also send back either an empty box, or a different item. Ensure you record the unboxing of the item being returned, because once the PayPal dispute is closed, you can request a review of the decision only once.

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 10:00
      +1

      Hey xiaomi! Thanks for this reply and insight. Definitely will be more careful next time and ensure more 'safeguards' in place.

      • Xiaomi on 27/09/2018 - 11:37
        +1

        Out of curiosity, was the address of the customer a Click and Collect at a BigW / Woolworths?

  • Gotchas on 27/09/2018 - 08:30
    +2

    Tell them you have postage insurance and outline you’ve been scammed before and know how it all works.
    You have video evidence of everything.
    Also threaten that you’ll be making a police report for insurance fraud

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 09:59

      Thanks mate. I've responded that I will not make payment and to return the items if he is unsatisfied. Let's see how it goes before going down this path.

  • dcep on 27/09/2018 - 09:49
    +16

    rule no.1 - only use ebay for purchases
    rule no.2 - sell at gumtree (no paypal)

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 09:58

      Great rules to follow. I've sold a few things on eBay and I wouldn't expect this to happen. Definitely will go the gumtree route next time. Cheers mate!

      • 87percent on 27/09/2018 - 11:34
        +1

        and make sure its CASH ONLY on Gumtree in a public place!!

        • Scab on 27/09/2018 - 12:09

          Why a public place?

          • Love a bargain on 27/09/2018 - 13:02

            @Scab: First of all, so that they don't know where you live.

            • Scab on 27/09/2018 - 13:04
              +4

              @Love a bargain: Personally, couldn't care less.

              Sold hundreds of things on Gumtree with no issues.

              • Yankyviking on 28/09/2018 - 09:29
                +3

                @Scab: Two guys came to buy my iphone and while inspecting the phone they drove of with it. So, Gumtree can be dangerous too. Better to deal in public place (where cameras are). I was advised by a policeman to deal in front of police station in the future.

          • 87percent on 27/09/2018 - 19:31

            @Scab: There's been a couple of threads I've read recently where the buyer just grabs the item and runs. Less likely to happen in a public place.. And yeah, so they don't know where you live too

            • SaberX on 27/09/2018 - 22:36
              +2

              @87percent: that worries me too when i've gotten my parents to sell my gumtree items on my behalf. but arguably most will be in a car and it would be pretty odd to try and outrun a household who can hop in the car? I guess anything is possible. when i was selling say a gopro i would meet in the local shopping centre.

              but sometimes it just isn't practical… becuase buyers run late or dont turn up, so it's a hassle ducking out to the nearby shops always expecting them to rock up.

        • tempura on 28/09/2018 - 08:49

          I totally agree with this however not all items can be sold in public space, just because the logistic making it hard to do.
          Imagine if you're selling a sofa or a mattress, then for most of us that don't own utes, it's almost not feasible to bring them to public spot.
          With small things, definitely no brainer, always bring to public place, not only that they don't know where you live but also if they want to bash you and take the item, it's less possibility of them doing that.

          • marquise on 30/09/2018 - 18:21

            @tempura: Last time I sold a sofa, the mofo snatched it off the roof rack and ran off with it when inspecting it! /jk

    • kaleidoscope on 28/09/2018 - 16:44
      +1

      Well use eBay to sell pick up only. Same as gumtree.

  • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 09:57
    +2

    Thank you for all the reply guys. I'll keep you guys posted! Just replied to the guy today, so we'll see how it goes.

  • akashra on 27/09/2018 - 10:07
    +1
    1. Ask them for the Panasonic case number, so you can independently call them and verify.
    2. Have them return the item.

    When 1+2 don't match up, refer the matter to the police so they can investigate it for fraud.

    • Xiaomi on 27/09/2018 - 10:37
      +4

      We all know it isn't going to match. If the buyer gives a random number, than what? Your two options is a dead-end.

      Secondly, I assume you are one of those taxpayers that think the police are sitting waiting and ready for when you walk into a station and report a crime, their not. The police will do absolutely nothing because

      1) It's a minor crime,
      2) What if the camera is actually faulty?
      3) Who's to say they are defrauding the seller?
      4) What is 'fraud' in the sense of a used item, a warranty claim, and a quote for repair
      5) Are the buyers contact details real?
      6) Even if the contact details are real, the buyer can claim the spouse claimed, vice-versa

      There is far too many variables to build a case. Police will not bother, the best option is to attempt the return of the product, and record the unboxing because I have a gut feeling the box is going to be empty, or filled with newspaper cuttings.

      • dogboy on 28/09/2018 - 11:17
        -1

        Yep, police are useless unless it is a major crime or revenue raising for them.

        • Xiaomi on 28/09/2018 - 11:18

          Policing is 100% a business. I know of cases where the police purposely sit back on drug-dealers for 12 months or so till their established, raid the house on a pay-day to prove their case (Tuesday / Thursday), and seize their car, house, assets under proceeds of crime until otherwise proven legitimate monies were used to pay for them. Such as this $12 Million Dollar bust this morning.

  • easternculture on 27/09/2018 - 12:28
    +12

    It happened to me once

    I asked for pictures of the serial number and a statutory declaration that the item was faulty.

    I then told him that I would be sending the item to be tested and if nothing was wrong with it, I would sue him for lying on a stat Dec and that he would be facing jail time as its a legal document.

    I got a reply back from the buyer that his brother was playing a joke on him, I was like Yeh right lol

    • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 13:07
      +2

      LOL You are too good. I may have to do this if it comes to it. Thanks for the info

    • GourmetFoodie on 28/09/2018 - 04:01

      lol nice!

    • BertieBrown on 28/09/2018 - 09:27
      +1

      I got a reply back from the buyer that his brother was playing a joke on him

      I’m just waiting for a mate.. - https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2sps8g (Sounds off, sorry, that drives me up the wall, but it’s still funny).

  • mrbighead on 27/09/2018 - 17:17

    Hey guys, I've come with an update. This is what he replied with:

    "I understand your concern. Maybe if you could send the warranty details as the technician was under the impression it was not under warranty when I gave him the camera details?? We will send it to Sydney and then when the Panasonic technician has had a good look at it I will ask them to send me an email with the problem and the cost to fix. I can also ask for a copy to be sent to yourself if you like. I understand that you sold it in good faith as a working camera and may not have been aware of this fault and hope that we can come to a resolution so that neither of us is left feeling like we have been ripped off."

    How should I reply?

    • easternculture on 27/09/2018 - 17:46
      +1

      Ask for a stat Dec and see what he replies

    • ldq on 27/09/2018 - 21:35
      +3

      Is it under warranty or not?

      • D6C1 on 27/09/2018 - 22:23
        -2

        Nice. Hat off to you sir

    • Nads2407 on 27/09/2018 - 23:05
      +2

      just get him to return it to you

    • timetoquit on 28/09/2018 - 02:18
      +6

      As someone said earlier.

      I wouldn't bother with any option for the buyer except to return the item.

      I've never come across any technician who could provide a quote to repair something without seeing the item/product.

      If he was genuine he wouldn't be making up these random figures from a so-called Panasonic technician to fix something he hasn't even seen yet! It does not make any sense. Those figures are very specific which tells me he is either a camera specialist/collector himself and scams people all the time, buying parts (he knows the prices) - getting refunds from buyers and re-selling them for more/profit. For your sake I hope I'm completely wrong but based on your OP I'd put money down he is bullshitting you.

      I wouldn't entertain this any further. Eat the costs, get your camera back and sell it to a genuine buyer it really isn't worth the hassle.

    • Love a bargain on 28/09/2018 - 16:22

      If it's under warranty, then shouldn't they be able to send it in for repair for free. In which case, can't see why you'd need to pay him anything. (He's bought a second hand camera, and the said camera started to malfunction after he's got it. That's life.)

      If it's not under warranty, then ask for it back as everyone else has suggested.

    • Scab on 29/09/2018 - 08:10
      +3

      Tell him to send it back for a full refund.

      Don't play the idiot's game.

      Think about it, if you bought a faulty camera would you screw around this much or simply get a refund.

    • Windows98 on 29/09/2018 - 16:10
      -2

      Sounds like he's being genuine. It's much easier to rip sellers off with less detail and effort.

      Everyone has their eBay/PayPal horror stories. The fact is that having your item available for postage interstate and with the safety of PayPal means you're able to sell things for more than if it's only available for pickup by people driving distance from you.
      When sellers lose out they cry that PayPal always takes the buyer side. When buyers pose out, they cry the opposite.

      There are ways to help reduce incidents like this and other scams. I take videos and pictures of the item working. And pictures of the packaging process and weights. Post using eBay's postage labels, always use signature on delivery and insurance.

    • rocksy85 on 30/09/2018 - 09:30
      +2

      Don’t do it. He probably has the exact same camera and will send you the faulty one back to you, possibly with different serial number.

  • blehgg on 27/09/2018 - 22:32

    Is it under warranty still? Do you have the receipt?

  • No ONE on 27/09/2018 - 22:35
    +4

    Did you have the record of serial number and match the serial number with the claimed camera's serial number. Buyer could probably scamming you through his own faulty camera.

  • Aerith-Waifu on 28/09/2018 - 01:03
    +5

    I recently sold a camera lens on eBay, I took the photo of the serial number and put on ebay, the buyer received it and said the lens doesnt work, and he sent back the camera lens.

    BUT! It had a different serial number on it.

    So he send me a faulty lens of his own and claimed it was mine. Lucky I got the photo of the serial number on eBay at the time of the sale and eBay has closed the case in my favour.

    So watch out as if you didnt have the serial number on your listing you might lose this.

    Just ask them to send it back and go from there.

    • armdrags on 28/09/2018 - 06:04
      +1

      That's so heartless. From my experience most of the people in the photography community are genuine and down to earth people. I can't believe some people would try to scam a fellow photographer like this. I have no words. It's good to know it was in your favour.

      • cashews on 30/09/2018 - 09:17

        Probably got a free lens because it was broken, or bought it incredibly cheap in order to scam a working one that they can sell for a lot more. Not all scammers are dumb junkies.

    • Kentrolla on 28/09/2018 - 15:41

      Exact same thing happened to me about 6 years ago with an iPhone. Sold it (bought brand new), after 5 months. It was literally in immaculate condition. Lucky I took plenty of photos etc, as well as with the IMEI. Buyer claimed the phone was DOA and wanted reimbursement, I said send it back. He sent back a damaged DIFFERENT phone. Paypal/eBay both closed the case in my favor.

      Ever since then I've always only sold used electronics in person, via Gumtree or eBay pick up. Never once had a problem with face to face sale.

  • Geryatric on 28/09/2018 - 07:13
    +1

    Scam

  • jason101 on 28/09/2018 - 08:04
    +8

    Seasoned eBay veteran here: Just take the item back as a return. Any other negotiation will result in you losing hair and sleep.

    This weeks story of woe from my personal eBay experience, was:

    Client buys item
    Client claims item is not as described (because they claim it did not work)
    Client ignores phone call, text and email trying to explain how to use a pretty simply product
    Client throws item away in bin
    Client opens not as described dispute
    eBay closes case in buyers favour - sends me a reprimand, transaction is noted as a "dispute closed WITHOUT seller resolution" in my record, hence effecting my other product placements.

    My product is gone, my money is gone.

    My hair is slightly thinner.

    Once the Nigerians wake up to the eBay dispute resolution process scam - the world is doomed.

    • tempura on 28/09/2018 - 08:51

      Once the Nigerians wake up to the eBay dispute resolution process scam

      This one doesn't sound Nigerians

    • altomic on 28/09/2018 - 09:33
      +2

      My annoying buyer of the week. sold a wireless mouse.
      Message from buyer-"mouse is broken, you sold me a dude, you wasted my time, how are going to fix this? "
      Me -"try the USB single in another USB port"
      Buyer-"what dongle?!?!? It didn't come with a dongle. I want my money back you're trying to scam me"
      Me-" 4th line in the description"

      • blitz on 29/09/2018 - 23:41

        you sold me a dude

        There's a dude category on eBay?

    • Trojan on 28/09/2018 - 14:16

      Thats why I've stopped selling stuff on ebay. Gumtree has its own problems but once they've inspected the item and paid cash, they are on their own.

      • Kentrolla on 29/09/2018 - 12:12

        Yep. Gumtree face to face cash selling is great. 100's of things sold and not one single complaint or problem.

      • [Deactivated] on 29/09/2018 - 17:40
        +3

        you typically get way less $$ on gumtree than ebay though. and there's a lot of bs lowballing offers and opportunities for crime eg. in person dealings.

    • Scab on 29/09/2018 - 07:53

      Nigerians wake up to the eBay dispute resolution process scam - the world is doomed.

      Most sellers exclude dodgy countries.

      And why would they bother, far easier and more lucrative spam scamming people.

      • gimli on 30/09/2018 - 16:30
        +1

        What if it is a prince from a dodgy country?

  • [Deactivated] on 28/09/2018 - 10:30

    Follow the ebay process…?

  • Roary on 28/09/2018 - 15:52
    -4

    If you are really sure he is scamming you, you can beat him at his own game.
    Ask him to send it back. When it arrives open it take the camera out, re-seal box then take a video of you opening an empty box.
    Send that to Paypal saying you are being scammed.

    • SnoozeAndLose on 28/09/2018 - 16:07
      +1

      if he send at post office, normal the actual weight will be print on the box

      • Kentrolla on 29/09/2018 - 12:11

        Sand has weight too lol :D

        • SnoozeAndLose on 29/09/2018 - 12:53

          It is matter of paypal believe which side story

  • gimme on 28/09/2018 - 17:19

    I didn't read the posts but why would anybody (non-business) sell anything on ebay these days is beyond me. I would never sell anything on paypal ever. Buying is another thing.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join