Aunty "Hijacking" My Late Grandmother's Will

meantolive on 07/09/2018 - 11:45
Last edited 07/09/2018 - 18:01 by 1 other user

Hi OzB Community,

My grandmother passed away earlier this year and my family didn't discuss her will until now.
Unfortunately, she did not leave a will in writing but only told my aunt and I (closest grandchild) verbally.
It was to split it 5 ways equally, between my aunt, dad and her 3 grandchildren (including me).

Now, my aunt is saying that my grandmother's will is superceded as she went to a lawyer alone and got advice to create joint Term Deposits with the people whom she wanted to give inheritance to.

The thing is, my grandmother already had joint term deposits under my aunt's and my name even before she supposedly went to the lawyer.
Furthermore, I'm certain that my grandmother would have never gone to a lawyer alone, and even if she did, she would have told me about it.

Each of her 5 beneficiaries should be getting ~100k. I already have "my share" from the TD under my name but I feel my aunt taking the remaining 400k to the detriment of the others is ludicrous.

I've always known my aunt to be a very nice lady and she's my favourite relative. But I guess money brings out the worst in you?
Would lawyers actually give advice like that?
What do you think is the best form of action if you do not want to severe family ties?

Thanks in advance!

Financial

Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 07/09/2018 - 11:54
    +4

    Would lawyers actually give advice like that?

    Almost exclusively.

  • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 12:36
    +4

    Unfortunately, she did not leave a will in writing but only told my aunt and I (closest grandchild) verbally.

    That's not a will. Literally fails… all… the requirements of a will.

    Also yes, joint accounts are a fairly common way to get around the complications of a will. If that's what was done, then the default is to assume it was done for a reason, and not done by mistake. Most people don't like the confrontation that comes with telling people they've been cut out of an inheritance.

    Each of her 5 beneficiaries should be getting ~100k. I already have "my share" from the TD under my name but I feel my aunt taking the remaining 400k to the detriment of the others is ludicrous.

    There is no "should" here. No one is entitled to any inheritance, the money is still the person's money until they pass away, and they're not obliged to give it to anyone. No one is "losing out", anymore than you lose out when you don't win the lottery.

    Your aunty isn't "taking" anything, it's legally and literally her money. And apparently your grandmother wanted it that way.

    Edit:

    What do you think is the best form of action if you do not want to severe family ties?

    Tell the people who wrongly believed they're entitled to any kind of inheritance to not be greedy. An inheritance is a bonus, they shouldn't expect it, they're not entitled to it, and they shouldn't be salty if they don't get it.

    • meantolive on 07/09/2018 - 14:10

      That's not a will. Literally fails… all… the requirements of a will.
      Also yes, joint accounts are a fairly common way to get around the complications of a will. If that's what was done, then the default is to assume it was done for a reason, and not done by mistake. Most people don't like the confrontation that comes with telling people they've been cut out of an inheritance.

      I guess my grandmother thought everything would be rosy and that the trustee would carry it out according to her verbal will without going thru the legal hoops.

      There is no "should" here. No one is entitled to any inheritance, the money is still the person's money until they pass away, and they're not obliged to give it to anyone. No one is "losing out", anymore than you lose out when you don't win the lottery.

      I have the same sentiments that nobody is entitled to inheritance. But if somebody willed you something, it should be yours.

      Your aunty isn't "taking" anything, it's legally and literally her money.

      Indeed, my aunt has legal rights to the money but she was trusted to carry out the will.

      Tell the people who wrongly believed they're entitled to any kind of inheritance to not be greedy.

      I think the real greedy person is my aunt.

      • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 14:20
        +1

        I guess my grandmother thought everything would be rosy and that the trustee would carry it out according to her verbal will without going thru the legal hoops.

        That's an assumption. A more valid one is that she knew what she was doing after having talked to a lawyer, and she meant for the money to go to your aunt as is happening. There's far more reason to assume your grandmother knew what she was doing, than that she somehow made a mistake.

        But if somebody willed you something, it should be yours.

        Yes. If. Right now that hasn't happened. Look, it's pretty simple from a logical perspective (more complicated emotionally): Your grandmother talked to a lawyer, she would know that a verbal will is utterly useless, and that her arrangements would mean the money would go to you and your aunt. Knowing this, she decided to still leave that arrangement in place without actually writing any other will.

        As far as I can see, this is what your grandmother wanted. Maybe that will hurt some feelings, but if the people who want the money want to respect your grandmother, maybe they can respect her wishes too, instead of arguing against it in a way that, hey, they coincidentally stand to benefit.

        I think the real greedy person is my aunt.

        You're entitled to your opinion, but right now your aunt only wants to keep what was given to her and is hers. Everyone else wants money that wasn't given to them and that isn't theirs.

        Have you considered why your grandmother only opened joint accounts with you and your aunt, and noone else? I don't know, but I assume she had good reasons.

        Edit: I also want to bring up the point that your grandmother may want just YOU to have the money in your term deposit too. You said that your grandmother only told you and your aunt before what she may have wanted you to do with the money - that suggests to me that you and your aunt were the closest to your grandmother. It's very possible that because of that, in the end your grandmother wanted her money to just go to the people who was close to her.

        You seem like a good person. But talk to a lawyer and seriously consider the possibility your grandmother wanted you, and not the rest of your family, to have the money. You can still give it to family of course, but you should do that because you want to, not because you get pressured or guilt-tripped into it. (Also if that happens - consider what kind of person would pressure or guilt-trip someone else into giving them money.)

      • redvaldez on 12/09/2018 - 14:07

        I guess my grandmother thought everything would be rosy and that the trustee would carry it out according to her verbal will without going thru the legal hoops.

        But that's not how wills work. While courts have discretion to admit certain written documents as wills where the formalities are not complied with, there is absolutely no way that an unrecorded verbal conversation some time prior to your grandmother's passing to one of her family members (and a potential 'beneficiary') even remotely comes close to the legal concept of a Will. Either your grandmother had a valid Will and any assets that fall into her estate are administered in accordance with that Will, or she died intestate and her estate is administered in accordance with the legislative provisions regarding intestacy.

        Just a random thought for you too - if your aunt is on Centrelink, there would be significant pension ramifications for her to essentially receive the estate in full in her personal capacity, and then distribute it out according to your grandmother's wishes. It would be a rather unusual (and ineffective) way for your grandmother to have her estate distributed.

        Would lawyers actually give advice like that?

        Abso-bloody-lutely. While there might be some estate lawyers floating around OzBargain who might give some relatively brief advice on some of the points you've raised, the relatively brief advice you get on an internet forum is no substitute for a full and frank discussion with a lawyer in person. If any of your family are suspicious as to the circumstances involved or just want some advice generally they should be engaging a lawyer sooner rather than later.

  • 87percent on 07/09/2018 - 12:42
    +6

    OzBargain would be one of the last places in the world i would be asking.. are people not even trying anymore?

    • Baysew on 07/09/2018 - 13:00

      OzBargain would be one of the last places in the world i would be asking

      Why is that? Where would you ask?

      • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 13:06
        +4

        Lawyer, family counselor, a priest, their own conscience for why they think they're entitled any amount of a recently passed relative's savings, that kind of thing I assume?

        I don't mind that they're asking here - happy to answer - but I can think of better places haha.

        To be fair, OP may have already asked everywhere else and this is one of the last places they're actually asking…

        • Baysew on 07/09/2018 - 14:52
          +2

          I was wondering if supasaiyan thought you answer wasn't a good one, and that OP should ask elsewhere.

          Your answer seemed to get to the central point - "that is what grandmother would have wanted" is not a will.

        • Baysew on 07/09/2018 - 15:07

          @Baysew: There well might be better places to ask, but probably no better answer than given by HighAndDry.

        • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 15:08

          @Baysew: Thanks for the vote of confidence =D. And I know we get all sorts of questions but I can also understand the initial "huh" of someone going to a bargain site asking wills and estates questions….

        • meantolive on 07/09/2018 - 17:35

          @HighAndDry: In OzB, anything goes.

        • bluetongue on 08/09/2018 - 07:30
          +1

          An appropriate Australian forum where you may receive anonymous replies from lawyers who practise in this area is https://www.lawanswers.com.au/forums/wills-and-estate-planni… . The answers to your questions will depend on the state where the application for the Grant of Administration is filed.

  • [Deactivated] on 07/09/2018 - 13:56
    +1

    it's quite possible that your aunt convinced your grandma to put the money into term deposits and put them in joint names with her so she could take it all after she passed. she probably told your grandma that she would look after it and arrange for the money to go to the other people who were supposed to get it. some people seem nice but they aren't when it comes down to it.

    my dad passed earlier this year, and he didn't leave a written will either. he'd always said that he wanted to leave his one valuable posession (worth approx 200-300K) to me and my brother. We'll never see it. To be honest i'm pissed about it, but i'm more pissed that I didn't get his golf clubs. he loved playing golf and playing with those would have kept a part of him with me.

    • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 14:24

      it's quite possible that your aunt convinced your grandma to put the money into term deposits and put them in joint names with her so she could take it all after she passed

      It's also possible the grandmother wanted to give the money to the aunt for whatever reason. I don't like second-guessing the intention of people who've passed. Right now, all actual actions of the grandmother say she intended the money to go only to OP and OP's aunt. That's it.

      Talk is cheap. Talk is often used to mollify relatives and avoid confrontations. Actions are what actually matter.

      I've seen many times that someone will tell their relatives they're all sharing in some big inheritance, only to actually think a lot of them deserve none of it and have an actual will or succession plan that's completely different. They do it because the people who have the mentality of thinking they're entitled to someone else's money, generally don't like taking "no" for an answer and won't stop bugging the person despite any and all explanations.

      Edit: This is going to suck for OP if they continue to insist that the grandmother actually wanted everyone to share equally, because I'll guarantee the family will pressure OP to share their portion with all of them, despite the grandmother wanting to leave it just to OP. And the worse part is that OP will still think the family are in the right, and the aunt's wrong, instead of the reality that they just got ripped off by the rest of the family.

      • [Deactivated] on 07/09/2018 - 14:39

        and nobody has ever taken advantage of an older relative who may be getting on in years and doesn't quite know whats going on.

        • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 15:10

          If I may be blunt - no one is taking advantage of the older relative: They're going, they're not taking any money with them. The question is who gets the inheritance, and it seems that OP and the aunt were closest to the grandmother in her last few days. I can understand why the grandmother might want to leave the money to them, and her actions are consistent with that.

    • ozbjunkie on 16/09/2018 - 21:40

      Why don't you contest the will? I think it's called the family provision act.

  • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 14:31

    Look OP - I know it's hard to think of your close family members as anything less than fully deserving of anything. But think about it from your grandmother's perspective. You know your family best: What would have happened if your grandmother had told them she didn't want to leave any money to them? Exactly. Now tell me - would you really be surprised if she made other arrangements without telling them to spare herself the drama and the fights and the explanations, and just wanted to live her last days peacefully?

    • [Deactivated] on 07/09/2018 - 14:40

      from the OP the grandma didn't tell the others anything, it was only discussed between grandma, the aunt, and the OP

      • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 15:11

        Exactly. That seems to suggest 1. The grandmother didn't want to talk about the inheritance with anyone else, and/or 2. Only OP and the aunt were close to the grandmother in her last few weeks/months.

        And both of those are consistent with the grandmother possibly wanting to leave everything to just OP and the aunt.

        • meantolive on 07/09/2018 - 17:30

          To clarify things, TDs were made years before she passed. She just kept rolling them over.
          My grandma wasn't so financially savvy so she got my aunt and I to follow her to the bank to create TDs on separate occasions.

    • meantolive on 07/09/2018 - 17:22

      If she really only wanted to will my aunt & I, why did she bother telling us about splitting it 5 ways in the first place. Remember that nobody else knows about this except for my aunt and I.

      And I don't think that was what she intended as we now think my aunt is unethical and greedy.

      • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 17:40
        +1

        I'm going to be honest - I'm not a mind reader so I have no idea. Maybe she wanted to do that at first, then changed her mind later because she realised only you and your aunt spent time with her. Maybe she thought about it more and realised you and your aunt would need the money more. Maybe she threw some dice. I don't know.

        All I can say is: if she went to a lawyer and knew what she was doing, or even if she didn't go to a lawyer but still knew what she was doing, then what she did was give the money to you and your aunt and noone else, even though - and this is important - she could have given all of you the money at any time.

        But she didn't. We can guess as much as we want about why, but the only thing we know for sure is what she actually did.

        That's my take.

        Also - again nothing is going to give you or your other family members closure. I've seen this dozens of times, to the person missing out, there's never a 'good explanation' that they'll accept. I don't know your aunt at all, she might be the wicked witch of the west for all it matters though, because in the end it only comes down to what your grandma did.

        • meantolive on 07/09/2018 - 18:42

          Very well said.

          However if she did indeed change her mind without telling me, I would be very surprised as she shares everything with me.

  • Skramit on 07/09/2018 - 14:34
    +1

    Talk to a lawyer.

  • tsunamisurfer on 07/09/2018 - 14:57
    +1

    OP.

    Sorry for your loss, but the mistake is with your Gram.

    She has essentially died intestate as he said she said wills are not enforceable.

    Now it comes down to the ugly situation of who has the most will and money to stake a claim.

    I used to be surprised to see how a seemingly normal functional family can easily turn on each other when significant sums of money or assets are up for division. Its like the head of the household has died, so I don't need to listen to or respect anyone but me.

    Easiest thing to do is to take your $100k, tell the other family members of your Gram's wishes and poison them against your Auntie.

    Hope it works out for you.

    • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 15:12
      +4

      I love how your comment is very nice and gentle and then BAM:

      Easiest thing to do is to take your $100k, tell the other family members of your Gram's wishes and poison them against your Auntie.

      • tsunamisurfer on 07/09/2018 - 15:31
        +1

        Sorry but making people pay is in built into my psyche.

    • meantolive on 07/09/2018 - 17:33

      Thanks.

      As much as I would like to see retribution. Blood is thicker than water.
      I have already told her other grandchildren about our grandmother's will as I believe they deserve to know. I won't add further "poison" but only mention facts.

      • HighAndDry on 07/09/2018 - 17:46
        +1

        Aiigh. I know you mean well and have the best of intentions - but I think you're discounting the possibility that your grandma can, and could have, changed her mind. So while you're telling people "her will", it's really only "what you understood her will to be at the time she told you."

        And I don't think you're necessarily poisoning anyone against your aunt. I'm actually pretty sure it's the rest of the family who missed out poisoning you against your aunt.

  • TheBilly on 07/09/2018 - 19:23

    Whats the ownership structure of 500k?

    100k joint with you
    400k joint with your aunt

    Also what is the relationship of beneficiaries to the deceased?

    Children, cousins, grand children

    Unless they can prove the 400k is all your grandmothers I think that they will only be entitled to a split of 200k and only then if they are children of the deceased (not grand children and cousins etc).

    • meantolive on 10/09/2018 - 16:11

      /100k joint with you
      400k joint with your aunt

      About right.

      /Also what is the relationship of beneficiaries to the deceased?
      2 Children & 3 Grandchildren

  • bobbified on 07/09/2018 - 20:41

    I seriously hate reading about these things. As if a big loss to the family isn't enough, along comes these disputes that can tear up the rest of the family.

    I'm so glad my family have always willingly shared money around and there's no such thing as "borrowing".

    • meantolive on 10/09/2018 - 16:09

      ideal family you have

  • ShannonN on 07/09/2018 - 22:38
    +1

    Find out what lawyer your grandmother supposedly saw, contact same lawyer to confirm she sought advice.
    If she did indeed see the lawyer all is above board and you should not concern yourself with what you or others believe is owing, you got yours duty executed move on

    • meantolive on 10/09/2018 - 16:09

      Good point. Will try to find out from my aunt which lawyer my grandmother supposedly saw. Have I feeling she'll cook up something but worth a try nevertheless.

  • whooah1979 on 08/09/2018 - 08:09
    +1

    Op, you’re getting $100k tax free. Take that as win and move on.

  • DebBol on 08/09/2018 - 09:05

    Sorry for your loss
    Have just been through this with my mums will yes she had a will plus written instructions ( which were useless ) what my sister did was devastating so glad mum was not here to see,
    I went to a solicitor and was advised it was going to cost big $$$ so I walked away, needless to say I have not spoken to my sister in over a year nor do I want to
    My advice for what it is worth see a solicitor or just be happy with what your aunt gives you

    • meantolive on 10/09/2018 - 16:07

      Thanks. And sorry for your loss too.

      Really sucks to see how trusted family members act this way. Will discuss with the other 3 if we are going to do anything.

  • cashless on 10/09/2018 - 13:09

    Unfortunately, she did not leave a will

    That's your problem, right there

  • [Deactivated] on 12/09/2018 - 04:42

    If your gran told you and your Aunt explicitly and consistently what she wanted. That is what both of you should follow through.
    Otherwise, you should probably disrespect your Aunt. I find it's easier to live with these situations if you have it out face to face.

    • meantolive on 12/09/2018 - 13:09
      +1

      Thanks!
      Yes, better to bring this out and discuss.
      We will most probably hold a family meeting very soon.

      • ozbjunkie on 16/09/2018 - 21:48
        +1

        Depends where you want to go with this and whether you think the auntie is behaving against your grandmother's wishes, or instead if you just think the split is unfair. Remember your grandma may have changed her mind.

        Anyway, Google the family provision act. Basically, any member of someone's immediate family, and some other people, particularly if they were ever a dependent of the deceased, can contest a will within 12 months of probate/ distribution of assets (I forget exactly which).

        The courts also have the power to claw back assets which were given away by the deceased, and put in someone else's name. I think this extends to 3 years before the date of death.

        All costs for the court cases are paid from the estate itself. This can be a real waste of money, and is very profitable for lawyers, and can get very ugly within families, but it is an option if you believe that the breakdown of assets is unfair.

        The court's decision is based on need and the nature of the relationships between applications and the deceased.

        Even the threat to retain legal representation and contest using the family provision act may make your auntie consider a different distribution of assets.

        Good luck.

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