Advice on Changing Schools - Blacktown Boys High School or St Mary's Senior.

Essentially, i've applied to a senior school (11/12 only) and been accepted, where some of my peers have. All those who have been accepted, even those who's original intent was to not leave are going; they're all deadset and have made up their minds, all but me.
For some odd reason i exhibit this mindless patriotism toward my teachers, and their kindness toward me. This illness has been conned; the principal refers to it as being a 'Blacktown Boy', but the general consensus seems to be that there is no value in showing some sort of loyalty toward the school. Anyways, enough autism, on to my actual post.

St Mary's Senior has the same travel time for me, the teachers there are apparently 'HSC markers', their school ranking is better (180 as opposed to 425 lmao), yet stil I'm faced with this tough choice, although objectively St Mary's is 10x better.

The teachers at Blacktown care and believe in my academic potential. I'm by no means a suck up, but I simply enjoy talking to them about things, it's just fun. For example, at recess (period before i began writing this in geography, useless subject imo), my English teacher was on duty in the Quad where I hang out. We had a bit of a chat about the English assignment issued to the grade 2 days prior, in which I decided to take up a challenge and do the whole Shakespearean English (broken english imo) task in Iambic Pentameter, because I suck at counting syllables and it'll help alot. My teacher said "I was talking to [x teacher] about it and we think you can do it, you definitely have the brain capacity but it'll just come down to the work ethic'. I have relatively low self esteem, and hearing things like this definitely does motivate me to study and work hard. I get along well with all of my teachers and peers.

Moving to St Mary's might mean that teachers dont 'care' as much, and seeing as most of the people on Ozbargain are adults who have gone through the education system and senior schooling, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say regarding my little dilemma here.

Just some notes/facts about the schools:

  • St Mary's focus on having a 'senior learning environment'. So you address teachers by names (no sir, mr), Wear mufti (no logos and set colour scheme but still mufti) and only have to attend classes (dont have to stick around)
  • I go to a boys school, but St Mary's is a co-ed environment - Is it really that big of a culture shift? Do the boys act different?
  • St Mary's achieved more band 6's (I've seen their b6/state ranking brakedown) but students have still been successful at Blacktown
  • The 'good' teachers at Blacktown have left - Former Maths head that got a student a b6 in ext. 1/2 math and physics and my old english teacher who was also great; im unsure of the quality of my teachers

Also, if you could explain abit of scaling that'd be greaaaaaaatllyyy appreciated (achieving rank #1 will be harder at St Mary's as opposed to Blacktown).

TLDR;

  • Have opportunity to move to better school (rank 180), current is (400+)
  • Attached to school and teachers
  • Confused
  • Help.

Note: yes the person posting the thread before me is my mate trying to convince me to go after i convinced him to go..

Thanks,

lolzdj

Comments

  • Merged from School Change Blacktown Boys High School or St Mary's Senior

    Hello, I am in year 10 and i have decided to move schools to a senior high school, Everyone in our class of 28 tried out, yet only 12 (including myself made it). However a friend from my class, has had second thoughts about going. Since the school we tried out for is a senior high school it is mainly about independent studying there. However, this friend has some sort of emotional attachment to our current school. This school has been on the news for fights and the learning environment is not good at all.He believes that the teachers care about him and the students so much that he is should to sacrifice a better learning environment because he believes that they will cater to his every need. This is bad idea because he goes to tutoring and seems to learn a lot more there then at out current school. The teachers at our school are away most of the time and it is usually casuals that can barely speak English that teach here on a daily basis. He definitely can do work but, he seriously over estimates the amount that teachers even care at our school.
    The school we applied for saint Marys SENIOR high school
    The school we go to is somewhere in BLACKTOWN

    He is right next to me and is also posting on here to convince himself.
    Am i wrong for trying to convince him
    Is Saint Marys overestimated in quality

    His post is probably gonna be on here soon

    Thanks in advance

    • Wouldn’t this question be better on Bored of Studies rather than a bargain-hunting forum?

      Better to pick up independent study habits now rather than later as you’ll need them should you choose to undertake tertiary education

      • Bored of Studies is blocked,sucks, this is only alternative

    • +1

      Its a scary thing, moving from a place you know to one you don't. What if turns out to be bad? What if all the kids there are boring and just study all the time like robots, never making jokes or having fun. Learning is great, but if it makes you dread getting out of bed everyday then its not worth it.

      Something that makes making a decision easier is knowing you can reverse it if it turns out badly. Most decisions in life I've found can be reversed, with a little effort of course.

      Is that an option here? Could he go to the exclusive school, give it a month, and if it didn't work out go back to blacktown?
      I'd wager he could.

      That way its equal. He's tried blacktown, he's tried mary's, and then made an informed decision about which one is better suited to his learning style.

      • Thing is, I told him to do that (what i was gonna do as well) but he refuses to switch during year 11 because he says that it is gonna mess up his studies, he is not wrong but i think it would be worth it to make an informed decision rather than emotionally.

        • +3

          If it messes up his studies just from that, he's not very smart and it doesn't really matter either way.

          Year 11 is a cakewalk. Its a joke. All it is is an introduction to the subject. The results don't count towards anything. Yes, there are subjects which require it as a prerequisite, so in that way its important, but in terms of your chances of going to university, it is irrelevant. The teachers know most people have forgotten everything they learned in year 11, so they go over it again in the year 12 class.

          If he wants to stay, he can stay. Its his life, and he can live it how he wants, even if he chooses to make decisions based on fear of the unknown that's his business. The question I would be asking him, is who is he staying for, because nobody stays for teachers. Is it a girl?

    • +3

      Not to bash on the alleged achievement but 12 out of 28 is hardly a barrier, however, your paragraph structuring is next to non-existent at year 10 so I think moving schools is a pretty obvious choice.

      A bit of more useful advice, just do your best in year 12. It is not as hard nor as important as what people make it out to be. Be a tradie, professional, businessman, real estate agent… Just don't waste your times on an arts degree and you'll be fine.

  • Your teachers would want you to take the choice that lets you achieve more. Go St Mary's if you have the chance.

    • I'll definitely ask but it's going to be hella awkward. Also the school knows that St Mary's snatches up many of it's good students and is employing many unethical methods to keep them here.

      • +1

        Look - any teacher worth your respect is going to put your educational achievement and success over some kind of personal loyalty you feel towards them.

        The only reason a teacher might tell you to stay, would be if they thought Blacktown Boys gives you a better chance at getting to where you want to go, but if

        objectively St Mary's is 10x better.

        No good teacher is going to do that.

        So say your goodbyes, give your good teachers presents, but keep in mind that seeing you be successful, is what any good teacher actually wants.

  • -2

    Stay at Blacktown. Your emotional happiness is worth more than the perceived ‘higher ranking’ school that you are considering. Unless you are intending to top the state, the school’s ranking (especially in Western Sydney) is almost irrelevant.

    • It's all for the benefit of my ATAR, I plan (and am doing/working toward) on studying all day to get that 90+.

    • school’s ranking (especially in Western Sydney) is almost irrelevant.

      Penrith High School is ranked 27th and repeatedly attains high ATAR results.

      I say being surrounded by high achieving peers gets better results.

  • School loyalty is worthless if the school is worthless.

    • It's more to my teachers, less my school. But i guess that circles back to the school as the teachers make up a great deal of it, and it's reputation. Some teachers by the way.

  • +3

    IMO an individual's success is ultimately tied to their work ethic and that applies not just to high school students, but also uni students and life beyond.

    If you believe you have a strong work ethic, it's reasonable to think that leveraging better resources will help you achieve better results. Just make sure you don't rely solely on them!

    • I think i have a relatively strong work ethic; I'm arrogant in the sense that I'll work night and day to prove people wrong, I've somewhat learnt to not let things get to me and i have a strong passion to succeed in life.

      I'm working towards building a strong state of mind where I'm able to sit down for 10 hours straight and just straight do math - Currently I can do about 4-5 consistently on a good day, but I'll have a 30 minute headache afterwards.

      I don't rely solely on my teachers, in fact, I barely use their help at all. All of my assignments so far have been done by my own comprehension (at the last minute), with only a few questions/ideas about the task being confided with my teacher. That's it. This is speaking a few months ago, I'm currently in my exam/assignment period again and this time I won't let my work overwhelm me - I'll crush it!

  • +1

    switching could be a good move. less risk of being dragged down by shitty school rankings, and some chance of being surrounded by peers who will push you more. you might be top of a shitty school now, but middle of a decent school could be better. your own motivation is a separate thing, and you might not be golden child anymore, but theres no reason to think you wont be encouraged over there. just put in a bit of effort, show them what you can do, and new teachers will give you attention too. and if not, just try to keep up and let the good students sweep you into a higher hsc score

    also, coed is good just for exposure to girls. maybe the argument for them is to avoid distractions, but as long as you continue keeping an eye on the books theres not much to gain, and a lot to lose, by sheltering yourself from women during adolescence. if you arent regularly hanging out with girls after school and getting girlfriends already, leaving single sex is a good idea just for that. i think hardly anyone who went to a boys school look back on it with much fondness, and many would feel it was a setback

    • I went over to my tutoring place to study today and had ranking/scaling explained to me - I now know why school ranking is so lucrative to parents. I'm just going to write some thoughts down in this comment to solidify my understanding/thoughts.

      By going to a school with students that are statistically more inclined to produce better marks, one forms a sort of safety net for themselves, which is great as it factors out some uncertain variables. It is all reliant on your schools internal ranking. Here's an example:

      Let's say I stay at Blacktown and the school's internal rankings for Ext. 1 Math look like this:

      1 - lolzdj - 94

      2 - x - 80

      3 - y - 79

      4 - z - 76

      Great, i maintain consistency throughout my internals but.. here's the problem. If for some odd reason, I can't focus during the exam because I'm sick, I'm unlucky, i have a headache. Any one of these reasons which very well might happen to me, I'm F**kd

      For the external exam (HSC examination), if the marks look like this:

      1 - x - 84

      2 - lolzdj - 82

      3 - z - 83

      4 - y - 80

      I take #1's score and all my hard work to get that band 6 goes down the drain. Because of my internals, i take x's external mark of an 84 and average it with my internal (/2), meaning my atar will go down, technically because the quality of students around me are not able to achieve a higher mark, thus pulling my mark downwards. At a school like St Mary's, not only is the competition better for me, but they'll pull my atar up.

      However, if i play the system and go to St Mary's, where the top 15 who are all likely to achieve high marks with slight variances, I'm safe.
      Let's (hypothetically) say that my internals look like this there:

      1 - lolzdj - 96

      2 - x - 95

      3 - y - 93

      4 - z - 91

      As you can see, the students are of a higher quality, perhaps meaning that NESA is provided with more context as to how I would perform amongst other intellectually capable students.

      Moving on to the externals, where once again, I, relatively speaking, fail.

      1 - x - 95 #x works really hard and is feeling amazing during the exam, he gets #1 external

      2 - z - 94 #z works really, really, really hard and comes up to a #2

      3 - y - 92 #y gets around the same mark he does as the internals

      5/6 - lolzd - 88

      As you can see, I've (profanity) up hard, really hard. My ATAR is saved though, as because of my internal rankings my headache/issue on the day was made redundant by the fact that I took the #1 place on the rankings. I take the #1 external mark and average that out with my internal, so rather than having a (94+84/2 = 89) mark, I get a (96+95/2), so a 95.5 taken off x.

      Moving on to your other points - my tutoring teachers are absolutely amazing and I don't know what I'd do without them, now that it's been thought over, i've realised that their companionship and my future is far more valuable than my teachers, as much as I may like them.

      Regarding co-ed: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) - The boys at my boys school are lads and to the one's i cherish, I don't regret a single day I spent with them during my junior education. In case you were wondering, I'm not inept in terms of talking to females :)

      EDIT HOLY SHIT EDIT: I POSTED THE COMMENT BUT OZBARGAIN SIGNED ME OUT AND IF IT WASNT FOR MY 20/20 VISION SAVING THIS COMMENT JUST BEFORE I POSTED IT, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST LIKE ANOTEHR LENGHTHY REVIEW OF A MONITOR I LEFT BEFORE. IM PLANNING TO USE THIS TO EXPLAIN MY DECISION TO SOME PEERS AT SCHOOL AND IF IT WAS LOST ARRGHGGYGYGHH

  • +5

    no uniform required, plently of girls around, address teachers by first name, go home if no class…..

    it's a no brainer for me mate

    go hard son

    • Will do.. mate.

  • +4

    Better education, your friends will be there, plus get to socialise with girls at an age where you want to be chatting to them?

    Yeah make the move

    • I mean i'm not so interested in chatting to girls at this stage - I was thinking to leave it until uni?

      • I know you've had your nose in the books, and absolute props for doing so, but there's nothing wrong with learning how to interact with the opposite sex now, especially with year 12 formals, leavers etc etc :)

        • +1

          Ah, you make a valid point.. the last time I had such interactions was during year 6 so maybe it is time to brush up? Then again, I've read the entire dating/relationship board on Ozbargain and have done extensive research on various scholarly resources (reddit) so.. call me an expert? I'm sure i'll be a real slaya. :)

        • @lolzdj:

          May God have mercy on your soul 😂

  • What do you plan on doing at uni at this stage?

    • I just want my high atar, many people in my family are very successful and I've been blessed. I feel as though i owe it to relatives (the ones i care about) and my parents especially. I was born here and despite being poor my parents did all they could to never make me feel left out. I still remember all that my mother did for me as a child, and I want to express my gratitude in the most sincere way I can imagine - by making something of myself. For my father too, he, alongside my mother taught me many valuable lessons and ingrained certain lessons that have stuck with me all the way through childhood. They always made time for me; my dad played with me as a kid after a long stressful day at work, where, even though I never realised it, he still hid his exhaustion and fatigue from me (we lived in the far west and he worked near the city so the commute was long and hard). Long story short, I don't know what i want to do, just where i want to be.

      • You sound like a hard-working and switched on kid. Good on you. The fact that you are even thinking about this instead of just going 'lol girls obv' probably puts you ahead of 80% of your peers.

        Without knowing your parents, I am certain they are proud of you already and a number on a piece of paper is not going to make to slightest difference to that. I think they would much rather see you happy and enjoying yourself (within reason) and getting 80/85/whatever than leaving somewhere you are (presumably) happy, studying night and day, missing out on some of the best social occasions of your life, miserable and cracking 90 just for the sake of it, without even really having a reason to do so.

        While a high ATAR is important in opening some doors in the short term, it is by no means the be-all and end-all.

        TLDR: Go where you will be the happiest, and your parents will be to.

  • +3

    St Marys … They promote alot of autonomy and by that I mean the teachers will teach and the rest is up to you. It is a very University type environment. If you have goals to achieve a high ATAR - you would only go to this school if you have really strict self discipline and the ability to self govern and achieve goals.

    • This. This is something I think that I can do. I've given up on gaming at this point, and the only reason I play is because of stress given to me by peers who I'd be leaving/hearing significantly less of if i part ways with Blacktown.

  • Do you base your decisions on facts or emotions? Because objectively speaking you know you should move to St Mary's.

    Do you think you'll achieve a higher ATAR at St Mary's even if you're less happy there?

    If you would achieve 85 at Blacktown being dux, or 90 at St Mary's just being around the middle, which would you prefer?

    Are your close friends going to St Mary's or are they staying at Blacktown? Even taking the school performance out of the equation, if your close mates are going to St Mary's then why is your loyalty to the teachers more important than your friends?

    Have you spoken to anyone from St Mary's about the teachers' attitudes there? How do you know they care less?

    At the end of the day, your results will have a longer lasting effect on your life than you being POTENTIALLY more happy for 2 years - (hopefully) better results means better course means better career.

    • imo DUX at blacktown has always been around a 97 mark, It's just things such as the entire eng. standard class failing their trials that pulls the school down. Truly though, my only loyal friend is pretty deadset on going to St Mary's and staying at Blacktown would make me feel like putting a 🔫 to my head every morning. I don't know much about St Mary's whereas all my peers know lots. All my knowledge is based off others opinions/myths/facts? and yeah.. that's about it.

      At the end of the day, your results will have a longer lasting effect on your life than you being POTENTIALLY more happy for 2 years - (hopefully) better results means better course means better career.

      That's the goal my friend, that's the goal.

      • the entire eng. standard class failing their trials

        Good decision on St Mary's.

  • +1

    Not sure if you'll relate but after Uni graduation and you get a job, you aren't really expected to stay in the same team, department or company. You go to whichever gives you more money or more career opportunities. One company could have better work ethic but no room for advancement or one team might support each other/get along really well but not get the results of another better team. Which one would you choose? I think you need to think long and hard about what you stand to benefit by going to a school with proven better results. Maybe write some pro con lists. Ask your friend to help. Speak to some alumni of St Mary's. Speak to some Uni first years.

    Side note: I think Year 11 really counts, it's bothersome to catch up on the basics.

    • I am aware of this yes, I do read alot of ozbargain career/finance threads as well as reddit and some other places that I can't exactly recall atm. I have a mental pro/con list but at the end of the day, i spoke to my tutoring teacher and he explained it to me, then told me (he put it friendly lol) that he'd call my parents if i chose Blacktown.

      Side note: Me and my teachers are pretty close and they do wish the best for me, otherwise they really wouldn't bother. I trust their advice lots so.. with all my friends who are going, my tutoring teachers, and students who didn't get in advising me to go, it seems that I don't really have a choice in the matter lol)

      • Not to be like, oh its internet, but having a conversation is kinda better. Maybe with someone in the field you want to be in the future.
        Well, certainly they'll hold it over you. But I think it'll be your choice. You would be here weighing people's opinion if you didn't want to make the best choice for yourself.

        On the flipside, do you think you would have any regrets with any of the choices you make? maybe make a list of those "possible regrets"?

      • then told me (he put it friendly lol) that he'd call my parents if i chose Blacktown.

        You have a good tutoring teacher.

  • +2

    I've taught at a senior high school before and a regular 7-12 co-ed high school. I'm not familiar with Blacktown Boys but I am familiar with a number of high schools in Western Sydney.

    I would recommend St Mary's over Blacktown, mainly because its focus is on Senior High students. The teachers live and breathe Preliminary and HSC syllabus day and night. They know what it takes to get through the content, understand it well, and be able to succeed in your final exams. I would strongly recommend going to St Mary's if you are concerned about getting the best possible mark and ATAR. That being said, it is not impossible to have a good result at Blacktown Boys, but your teachers will likely have other things on their plate (e.g. teaching a bunch of junior classes) which will take away from their focus on helping you succeed.

    I've found Senior High Schools more conducive to learning as you do away with the petty distractions of the junior students and you can focus on the academic side of school a little more. You will still make some great friends and great memories.

    But whatever school you choose, remember that whatever mark you get in the end will not define your life and you can go onto study or work in almost any field if you really want it.

    If you have any other questions, let me know :)

    • It's probably my philosophy that's the problem. In English, i believe that if I'm more comfortable with the teacher my thought process/flow won't be so constricted, but it also goes both ways. Because of their high expectations of me, I might become more inclined to give the 'right' answer, as opposed to introducing my own thesis, which as far as i can see is what is required of you to get up there in Ext. English.
      The argument for St Mary's is basically based upon this quote of mine,"I learn more at tutoring in an hour and a half than I do in a full week of school", which is plausible.

      At tutoring i thrive, so his logic is based upon the fact that St Mary's, because of it's same quality of students and supposedly teachers is "What if you could go tutoring everyday". I agree, but what if teachers there aren't as good as tutoring, but instead equal or perhaps worse? In the past I have been dissuaded by my teachers in English; I bring up a technique I've learnt in tutoring and have obsessed over (point in case synechdoche) and my teacher looks at me confused, I bring up an original idea that isn't contrived and she says 'Nice job lolzdj' then goes back to explaining this meagre observation that if i'm quite honest is beneath me. Achieving high marks has always been easy because i've never been challenged. I was complacent with continuing to ace my course and didn't think to search for ways to help myself as an english student, not my ego or grades.

      Class at Blacktown is always distracting. At any given point the noise is above normal speaking lesson coming from around 20 of the 30 students in the class. Nobody is focused on learning. I wish that during my Junior years i had focused on moving to a school such as Girraween or James Ruse; their work is more suited to my level of english, but I was too busy gaming to push my math up to the same level as my English.

      Hopefully at Saint Mary's the teachers are more focused and I can push myself harder to become a better student, and by my standards, a better person.

      Note: Thank you for offering to answer more questions, If i think of anything I'll be sure to ask!

  • Hi there! Student in question about to reply to some of the questions.

    (If you're reading this edit then im a dope)

  • I graduated from North Sydney Boys High School in 2015, NSW's best all boys high school, with an atar between 97-99 (If your atar was expected to be below 90 you were basically asked to leave the school lmao). If I were you I'd definitely be changing schools. In terms of scaling, I was ranked about average or slightly below average out of a cohort of 160, with Atars ranging between 90(?) and 99.95

    In my opinion the cohort you graduate with matters significantly more than the teachers you work with. The friends you make during high school are lifelong, and even more importantly you need to form bonds and create study groups and have peers you can rely on to study with, in order to make it through Yr 12. IDK about you but the student's I've seen at Blacktown BHS are not the type of students who you can rely on to push you along to get a decent ATAR, no offence. Hard to be specific but msg me if you have some HSC questions. I band 6'd 3U maths, physics, and chemistry and got 89 in both English Advanced and Economics.

  • I'm a parent of a kid that goes to St Marys Senior from private school. I know few kids that come to the school even though they got in to selective. And seen few that went downhill after joining the school as there are lots of distractions and no disciplines as such (as in private school).
    My son is thriving and doing pretty good than the school he went to. And he is happy and he is still in contact with his previous school mates and has made many new friends at new school too.
    Been to parent teacher meetings and teachers were excellent on explaining what is expected from them and what they need to do to better themselves.
    IMO getting higher ATAR will open up many opportunities (to study) than not getting it at all. And a very strong platform that can lead you to many directions for you to choose.
    Hope this helps!

  • I feel like I can relate to you
    I applied to st Mary’s and got accepted and so did a few of my close friends.
    I attend not the best private school in western Sydney, however I believe it will be easier for me to be in the top 5 then again my cohort isn’t the smartest and the smart kids are leaving.
    I have been attending this school since kindy so you can imagine the attachment I have to this school, I just wonder whether moving schools will be the best for me.
    What if I’m able to achieve a better ATAR at my current school rather at st Mary’s.
    I also would like to know whether students at st Mary’s have achieved a high ATAR like between 96-99.
    And who knows we may meet each other next year!!

  • OP, I hope ur seeing this.

    I’m a blacktown boys student in the selective class…..well technically not anymore as I have also been accepted into st Mary’s senior high and I have also enrolled.

    Everything has been done and I am supposed to start year 11 at st Mary’s in 2021. I had originally made up my mind to go ahead and accept the offer to enrol at st Mary’s without giving it too much thought. But now I’m so lost I have no idea what to do. One part of me wants me to stay at bbhs and my parents are happy to get that sorted out.

    What was ur final decision? Did u go to st Mary’s or stay at bbhs?

    • St Marys worked out fine; it's all about hard work and discipline in the end. I don't have many regrets (are we ever truly sure about anything) now that everything is all said and done.

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