i'll get straight to the point, after an extensive research, from ozbargain to whirlpool and many other forum, a lot of people come to the conclusion that gas is cheaper, and at 1 point i believed that. until this week when the temperature is unbearable and i did the calculation myself.
the gas metre is in m3 and 1m3 = roughly 38MJ
im with dodo flex plan which they charge 2.3 cent per MJ
for electricity i have 3 type of charge peak, off peak and shoulder. since my test is at night so only off peak count
the most important thing is dodo gives 1 hour free electricity from 6-7am
last night i took a picture of the metre before turn the gas heater on ( set at 20c). Since my gas heater can only partially zoning so i chose the my bedroom (obviously) and my computer room,
this morning i when out side and took another picture for comparison and what do you know, nearly 10m3
which work out to be 380MJ. 380x2.3=874 cent, $8.7
However, early this week, i did the same thing with heat pump ( the number also included other things such as fridge, light, and some other minor things) which work out roughly $1.5. 700watt x 6 hours (to 6am only since after that 1 hour free electricity)
iam aware that the daily service of eletricity is higher than gas, but not by much. did i do anything wrong? because honestly last i did the same test last year but not to this extend and my gas bill is like $384 for 65 days but when i went full electricity i remember it worked 200ish after discount.
if you look at the number it nearly identical but from that $200 there are shit load of things that used it but that $384 is only for gas heater and water
so what is your opinion? and what do you do to save money?
Winter Is Here, Gas Vs Electricity
Comments
any tips or advices to save money though i doubt that it will get as cold as VIC
I put on a cardy.
If only I could convince my wife of that strategy. I mentioned the possibility of buying slippers for our daughter and the look she gave me could have killed… If it gets anywhere near 20 in our house the heater goes on. And if it gets anywhere near 22 the cooling goes on in instead.
@ely:
Ditch them. Many Family law firms offer the first conference for free. Mention Ozbargain and get a free Will and Prenup for new relationship.
this morning was a bit cold
I know. I had to put on some socks as I have floor boards.
yeah i had to put some socks on with my thongs
yeah i had to put some socks on with my thongs
You really should be wearing more than just a thong. Trackies would be much warmer. And a cardy.
@eug: Downvoters appear to be unaware of the way most English speakers interpret "thongs".
Or they do, and they're just very defensive about this hilarious but of Aussie vernacular.
No supposedly winter is this Sunday/Monday. Single digit night, sub-20c daytime plus maybe wind chill factor
We have a wood fire and people are always giving away firewood around here. It costs us nothing to heat the house up at night.
No idea if you are renting or not but if you can get one fitted and have a good source of free wood like on gumtree, heating for winter should cost you zero.
Parents have wood fireplace but while wood is free. It is more effort to gather the wood, clean the ashes every other day, and then to light it up and put wood in it. Also sometimes it gets so hot, so have to open the window a bit lol.
I'm on the same page. I sold our fireplace, and have been selling off the remaining wood for $70 a trailer load.
I love a freebie, but in this case its just too much work.
It's my house and i do have fire place but where do you get free wood? Especially in VIC
People cut down trees on their property and occasionally leave the wood on their nature strip. The wood generally is gone within 24 hours, it's a game of luck and speed!
Gas used to be the cheaper option but the costs have been going up. You are probably best trying to reduce the amount of either option you are using by sealing gaps, wearing thermals/have blankets (so you can drop the temperature down a bit), get a good quality doona so you are toasty warm overnight, check your insulation, heavy drapes, put rugs on wooden floors, etc.
The biggest problem is you are getting screwed on the supply charge.
Having both electricity & gas made sense years ago when the supply charge was trivial (and gas was cheap), but with some companies charging nearly $1/day you are spending $700/year just to have them connected.
Having both electricity & gas made sense years ago when the supply charge was trivial (and gas was cheap)
Those were the days before privatisation right? Before people voted for politician's claiming that having for profit businesses doing the same thing was going to be cheaper because … just because. OK.
Are you going to vote for parties that both created the system in the first place and then failed to reverse the disastrous outcome of this policy? Because a vote for them says you like losing money so that wealthier people than you become wealthier.
Do not vote LibLabs because they have demonstrated by their actions that they're willing to screw you.
who do you vote for?
Just putting it out there. Respiratory specialists are against wood fireplaces (most of the pollutants that escape from the chimney re-enter the home) and unflued gas heaters (CO and NO2 builds up).
We rarely get below 6 degrees in Eastern Sydney so I mostly rely on blankets and concrete mix.
But thanks for the numbers. I never realised how expensive gas heaters are but it makes sense.
I agree, until i actually do the math, I still think that gas is ok to use. Thanks to m3 to MJ. And around 2cent per MJ. HOWEVER, gas syste. On 80-85& efficiency and loss through out the tube. Furthermore reverse cycle is so efficient that my model can generate aeound 3.8kw of heat for every 700w of electricity
Reverse cycles/heat pumps are very efficient (provide heat equal to 4 times the electricity used) and with gas prices up it is not surprising that electric heating is cheaper than gas.
Most people compare cheap electric heaters (oil/halogen/ceramic) with gas which will cost 4 times more in electricity.
(I'm using air con reverse cycle for heating)
Me too, but if you cant afford it because you arw renting, do you think portable reverse ac can do the job?
Not those that draw in COLD exterior air to the building - to REPLACE that exhausted outside.
Lucky to get a COP exceeding UNITY - so might as well use an inexpensive 'air' electric heater; or perhaps a 'direct' radiant heater - if safe.
A box/split RCAC another matter: offering COP's from 3 to 6!
I was surprised at how cheap reverse cycle heating is. I installed 3 Daikin AC units and they each run @ 22-23°C for a minimum of 14hrs/day. Total electricity bill is less then $300/3mths for a household of 3.
Previously was using off-peak slab heating and bill was always north of $900, once as high as $1400.
Cost me $6500 for the 3 AC units, installed. So in a couple of years will have paid itself back, and for a much warmer house then in-slab heating could provide.
Total electricity bill is less then $300/3mths for a household of 3
Seems way too cheap.
Whats the wattage of each of them?
Which mean 100 per month? Are you sure? Because unless you have solar, daily service will cost at least 30-40$ already
I should of added we have solar hotwater and gas stove. And yes, the last bill was $401 in total, my bad. I then get a 20% discount on that (Simply Energy)
2 AC units are 3.5 and the third is 7.1kWBreakdown
Energy Charges $264
Supply Services $137
Total $401 less 20% discount $320And as I mentioned I am surprised by the low costs. It's been in this range ever since installing AC last Sept
@Fudnut: are uou in vic?cuz i have 5kw solar too and i agree during summer i do gwt thay kind of bill, but not during winter, please show me, master
No, sorry, I'm in NSW (Armidale region) Note that I don't have solar electric, but solar hotwater only, with electric boost.
The house was built for the climate, and is only a 2 bed/office so that would help for a low electric bill. But I'm not complaining :)And should I mention, to rub it in, that I paid $19.92 for my last bill? Yep, overall bill was a bit less then this one, but Simply Energy said that they overcharged me last year for a quarter, so credited me, leaving me to pay just that. :)
get a fireplace
Congrats on you doing the numbers for VIC!!!
".. i did the same test last year but not to this extend and my gas bill is like $384 FOR 65 DAYS but when i went full electricity i REMEMBER it worked 200ish after discount."
".. that $384 is only for gas heater AND WATER .."Conditions vary - not only from year to year, but also day to day.
Heating only part of your home overnight will result in catch-up morning heating being needed for colder areas - perhaps at higher (Shoulder?) electricity rates.
OP 11pm to 7am at $1.50 for 4.2kWh works out over 35c/kWh - my COMBINED ToU (P,S & OP) AVERAGING ~18c with MOM. NG also lower, & REDUCING WITH VOLUME!!I would block off your fireplace. Does it have a damper?
Looks as if you may have ducted gas heating?
Older units can be inefficient, with dirty & uninsulated[/damaged] ducting.
Were delivered ducted heat to be 50% of input, you would need 7.2MJ to give a kWh of heating.RCAC with a modest COP of 3 only requiring 0.33kWh of electricity to give one kWh of heat.
Certainly review your winter heating for VIC - perhaps an electric blanket for sleeping too?
ALDI ;-)$50 for visiting our State GOVT Energy Comparison Site from July 1!!!
Should pick up cheaper rates too :-)ATA recommend ditching gas - inductive cooktops etc.
CHOICE also have a new $99 yearly "set & forget" interesting alternative!APPARENTLY 70% OF VICTORIANS MAY BE OVERCHARGED FOR THEIR POWER IIRC.
Thank you for the info, my fireplace does not jave a damper, will build a door to block it now, btw i surprised that ATA recommends to ditch gas heaters
I just serviced my ducted gas heater last week because all my acquaintances were loke gas is cheaper blahblahblah, until i actually did the math, oh well. As if this morning, reverse cycle and blanket heater now, honestly do you think i should ditch instant gas water and go for electric one? Since my off peak is so cheap after discount and i have 1 hour free of electricity in the morningYou certainly don't want heat exhausting through any chimney :-)
Even at your unbelievably high Off Peak overnight rate, over 35c/kWh, the RATED COP efficiency of your RCAC heating means that each kWh of heat only costs some 6.6c.
[Likely a high EER for summer AC cooling, under global warming conditions too!]Were you to be using some 7.2MJ (for an older/inefficient) gas ducted system to deliver a kWh of heat, at 2.3c/MJ this would cost around 17c.
Would seem to explain the halving of costs when going from winter gas heating to RCAC!HW Instant gas is quite efficient - say 80 - 85%.
Electric storage is close to 100% HW heating efficiency - but standing tank heat losses might amount up to 1.5kWh daily.
Both HW systems will have supply piping heat losses - lower for controlled shower temperatures with gas!A 130L bath (or two 7 minute 9LPM showers) in winter with water warmed 30C (at an overall 'delivered' efficiency around 75%) would require some 22MJ.
Using bottled gas might double the cost per MJ to around 5c - but save on the NG daily supply charge.
The ATA are investigating this.instant gas water
You'd be surprised how much gas the pilot light uses (if yours has one).
I didn't believe it until I checked, I found that just the pilot light alone was enough to heat up my tank in about 3 days.
Agreed that a continuously lit pilot light can waste a deal of gas - 0.3MJ/Hr amounting to some 7MJ a day: enough for about a 10 minute low flow shower.
"I didn't believe it until I checked, I found that just the pilot light alone was enough to heat up my TANK in about 3 days."
I was referring to TANKLESS 'continuous/instantaneous' gas HW systems.
Desirably these should be automatic ignition - electricity/battery, water pressure hydro being tempramental.My experience with a smaller (~115L?) gas storage HWS, pre 2000, was of very high standing tank heat losses. Around 20MJ a day, even in summer?
At 2c/MJ some 40c daily.
1.5kWh for the larger OP electric HW tank likely cheaper?@TetchyToo:
Sounds reasonable as i am waiting for bunnings to put those electric hot water tank on sale before i grap oneI was referring to TANKLESS 'continuous/instantaneous' gas HW systems.
…and as I said:
pilot light uses (if yours has one).
Theres a lot of factors in the gas v electric equation. I'm still stuck on it myself
For instance, gas is cheap, but gas appliances are at most about 80% efficient. The extra heat goes out the window. At the same time most heaters don't use an outside air intake, so a heater is constantly drawing air from inside the room. Gas also comes with the service charge. Generally, unless you have a pool or an instantaneous hot water system, I recommend against getting gas.
I would check your figures again though. It would be pretty crazy to go through that much gas. Either you made a mistake or somethings wrong. You might have a leak somewhere
Thank you for your r the remind, believe it or not i sticky tape all windows and doors gap. To get the most out of it. I realise that during the day, the heat remain inside a lot longer before the gas heater kick in compare to night time. As I mentioned in previous post, I just get my system service and hopefully the guy did check for leak and such since he did not mention anything about it.
Hope is good, but I prefer to rely on my own judgement where I can. Its pretty easy to check, just do your experiment again, except this time don't turn the heater on. If the usage has gone up despite nothing being on, you know you have a leak
i did it this morning, no hot water, no cooking, from 7 until now, the metre did not gone up one bit but honestly as i mention in my OP, 10 m3 of gas from 10pm to around 7 am is hell of a lot
Yes, it is an absurd amount. My wall furnace at full blast consumed 40mj/hour, but over 9 hours that would been enough to turn a 50m2 room with 3m ceilings into a sauna.
@outlander:
Thats ome thing i love about ad, they shod regulate it some how. Its not fault ad because they did not lie about it, they just at didnt say it. Charge in MJ but deliver in m3 so for easy target that look at the meter and not checking that little m3, big mistake haha
I’m in Melb and went through this question as well.
Gas used to be cheap, but is now expensive to run.
We have hydronic radiator heating and it is a a very nice heat, but expensive.So now I run it for the key hours, 1.5 hours in morning and 5-6 hours at night supplemented by reverse cycle A/C on heating mode.
The A/C heating is more noisy and blustery, but I think using it instead of having the hydronic heating on for more hours will save me money.I think if you get get a good off peak electricity rate, reverse cycle air-conditioning is the most efficient and cost effective to run in 2018.
yes it is, as i am sitting in my comfy reverse cycle heated room right now
why not chuck on a jumper, it's free………
Could you send me a jumper for free too while you're in the giving spirit?
I did, that is why i set most of the heater at 20c
I bought a jacket the other week and it had an ingenous and funny label.
ENERGY SAVING GARMENT.
By putting on this jacket you wont bet tempted to turn the heating up.
Stay warm and Cosy, Save MONEY!
cracked me up, reminded me of when as a kid i complained of cold , go and put another jumper on lolset the thermostat to 17 & chuck on a woolen jumper, that is what I did in my old place
when I move into my new place next month, I will have to work out which will be more efficient; rev cycle air-con or electric heat pump. I hope it is an inverter type rev cycle air-con
The temporary place I am staying in, I turn off the rev cycle air-con at night & put on an extra blanket while having the electric blanket on low overnight - toasty
I remember waking up one morning in my bus and my mo was frozen, it was -4, the rest of me was warm as I had 2 doonas, one was woolen
Itsnt it reverse cycle is heat pump?
I have no idea. I bought the place sight unseen & in the real estate description it said it has a reverse cycle air-con & a heat pump. Maybe they are just fluffing up the description?
I'm in t-shirt and no socks year round and don't have gas and I'm in Victoria. You have to remember you are paying $300 a year just to have a meter on your property… That buys a lot of electricity. My annual power bill is just over $2000 which includes the $365 supply charge ($1 a day). I have 5kW of solar pv on the roof, run pool equipment year round, one single 9kW Fujitsu heat pump which needs 2.5kW input. I also have several zoned rooms with underfloor electric heating which are about 1kW per room (all bedrooms and bathrooms), run computers and surveillance systems 24/7, 2 fridges, induction cooktop. 300sqm house. 7.5 star rated house.
OP misses one very important point.
Gas heating is far more effective than electric heating. Full Stop.
Walk into any apartment that has a gas heater running and you feel the warmth immediately. Not so with electric heating.
It takes much longer to heat up a room with electric heating.
Gas heating can effectively heat up an AREA of a house or apartment where electric heating cannot.
However a gas heater also consumes oxygen and may cause internal condensation so one must effectively ventilate the apartment on a regular basis.And then you have many more alternatives with electric heating….
You can place an electric heater anywhere there is a power point whereas you are limited to one or two gas connection points with a gas heater. Let alone the additional installation costs for the gas pipes and outlets.
You can leave an oil column heater safely operating on the LOW setting all night to keep a bedroom from getting cold.
A reverse cycle air conditioner can be used both in summer and winter for effective temperature control
A fan heater can quickly warm up a small area though expensive to run all the time.
So pros and cons of both. Its not all about cost.
thanks for you reply, but effective in which way? heating element? because as far as i can see max effectiveness is only around 80 to 85 percent.
i do consider pro and con, of both and yes, the feeling of gas heater is much nicer but if you look at my maths 10 m3 is a lot of money >_<We ditched gas heating and HW when we went solar.
Our feeling is that reverse Cycle AC is good at keeping temp constant but it admittedly takes longer to heatup our large living room so we just have a micathermic heater we use to pump the heat up to desired temp quickly.Even in single digit temps we can get it up to 25 in about 15 minutes with the micathermic heater then switch and keep it in the mid 20's all night with the reverse cycle A/c.
When we ditched gas you notice things like much less humidity, less dusting and vacuuming is needed and our kids do not seem to get sick with the flu or allergies as much as they did.
This is the micathermic heater we use to boost the speed of getting temp we want:
https://www.bunnings.com.au/euromatic-360-micathermic-convec…
I got one too, im going to try this method tonight
Some more thoughts on this topic
Firstly one cannot look at the cost of gas heating in isolation.
OP has NOT told us:
1 if there is an existing gas supply at the residence and therefore does OP have gas cooking
2 if OP already has gas heater connection points in the residence-If not then the installation costs may not be worthwhile.
-If not then OP must also consider the additional cost of the daily supply fee which applies all year round. Not just in Winter.
If OP is aleady paying for gas supply for cooking then paying a small amount more for the extra gas consumed during the winter months makes perfect sense.
It also comes down to how long OP will live in the current residence….
If only temporary then this comparison is futile unless all the gas facilities are already in place.
If it is reasonably long term then any installation costs and the cost of the gas heater must be taken into account and amortised over the term of the stay.
Consider also the cost of purchasing a gas heater is many times more expensive then purchasing an electric heater unless OP buys a good used gas heater. But even these are many times more expensive than used electric heaters.
1 there is gas pipe already, and gas cooking, but i didnt use that unless i want to be quick as i have solar panel therefore i bought those mini induction stow from jb for cooking
2 gas heater is already installed and as i mentioned i just got it services but the maths showed that it is too expensive that is why i asked did i do anything wrong.
3 i owned the place so i tried my best to keep everything as low as possible
Just had a gas fitter look at our continuous water heater, and his recommendation was to ditch gas for a heat pump. That fact that he had one himself was the deciding factor for me.
My long term plan is to replace the gas stove with induction and cancel the gas supply, then get solar panels with battery backup and ditch the electricity supply.
(disclaimer: we have metered lpg. It simply isn't economical.)
that was my plan too but you know sometimes unduction stow just does not compatible with some appliances. that is why i still have my gas stow. and man that fire when you want to do some stirfries and or need a lot of heat
yeah you can ditch an aluminium saucepans, but it's not like you need expensive pans like competitors tried to suggest when they first came out.
You do need to consider an option for stir frys (there are options out there), but I've never stir fried with gas anyway so not an issue for me.
I don't think gas produces more heat than induction??it actually does, have you ever point those laser heat measure gun at the fire? :) and when you want some beef stir fried or fried rice you will see a few seconds of the stow, the heat will reduce rather quickly and if you cook at home a lot like me, you will know how important it is to keep a hot, constant heat when you do fried rice.
it actually does, have you ever point those laser heat measure gun at the fire? :)
Be careful about measurements that you get from infrared thermometers; the readings depend on the emissivity of what you're measuring. Basically, an emissivity of 1 is perfect… the surface radiates IR perfectly. A surface with a lower emissivity means it starts to reflect the surroundings, so your readings won't be accurate.
Typical consumer IR thermometers are calibrated for an emissivity of 0.95 which is OK for things like concrete, water, soil, rubber, painted surfaces, etc.
If you point it at a shiny metal pot, the reading is going to be much lower. Pointing it at a flame will always give a higher reading (which should be more accurate, although the spot size will come into play) than a shiny pot - it doesn't mean the pot on an induction cooker isn't as hot as a flame.
the heat will reduce rather quickly
That's really a function of the pot you're using, rather than how the pan is heated. You need a pot with high thermal mass if you don't want the heat to dissipate quickly. Were you using a thin or thick pan with the induction cooktop when you made that observation?
Interestingly, I've read that some restaurant chefs prefer pans with lower thermal mass as they heat up more quickly which means they can regulate the heat themselves more accurately.
@hunterhalo:
You haven't convinced me. So your saying, for example, that a kettle would boil faster on a gas stove than induction? I haven't found anyone who agrees.that a kettle would boil faster on a gas stove than induction? I haven't found anyone who agrees.
You'd think that'd be the case, but a lot of the heat from the gas escapes around the edge of the pot and so is wasted. Doesn't happen with induction. You could design everything to be more efficient, but eh.
As you say about IR thermometers you need one with adjustable emissivity, but they're a bit rare (I do have one) but even then you need to know what you are doing. The usual 'quick fix' with shiny objects is to paint or put black tape on them, not always a good solution.
It's not like it's hard to test gas vs induction, fill a pot with water and time how long it takes to boil on either of them.
I think induction can get way hotter.
When we first got induction I put my old cheap frying pan and switched it on "9" and in a couple of seconds it folded in half like venus flytrap from the heat. Like a bimetallic strip. I used cook steak in the same frying pan on full blast.
The Xiaomi portable induction cooker uses a contact to the 'pot' base to measure temperature - on OzBargain now?
IIRC a flat bottom wok is recommended!
@hunterhalo
I'm assuming you have no qualms with the use of 'gas' i.e emissions in the form of carbon monoxide etc. (maybe no young children around the house)no young children around. and i forgot to mention that my exhaust fan in my toilet which is in my room to is huge ass and it does not have auto cover on top which fresh air leak in a lot but not too much to cool the room down
I live in QLD.
winter was last monday.