Can The Dealership Seriously Do This?

Hi all,

I've been dealing with a crappy situation after buying a car from a dealership here in Brisbane.

Here's the cliff notes.
  • Purchased car from major dealer with broken air con
  • Before purchasing, wrote it into contract that issue must be fixed. Dealer & I signed contract.
  • Issue has been "repaired" 3 times now within <60 days of buying the car
  • Air con has now failed for the 4th time
  • Took car in again and am now being told a rock caused new damage to the condenser, and I must pay $800
  • I don't believe this to be true, I think it's always been broken, hence gas leaking out again every couple weeks
  • What can I do?

And here's the longer version for those who are interested.

I initially went to a dealer to inspect a used Peugeot RCZ. 2012 model with 90,000KM on the clock. Did the test drive and was quite impressed, but made sure to check all the electricals. The salesman and I both noticed the air conditioner wasn't working, and he agreed that they would sort that out prior to purchasing. He assumed it would just need re-gassing.

We drove back to the dealership and negotiated for about an hour. I managed to get the price down about 10%, as well as got them to throw in the "premium warranty" (although I kinda know this has limited/no value). Before you guys pull me up on this - I made sure to write on the contract that the air conditioner must be repaired under "Special Terms". We then signed a deal and I was told I would be notified when the car was ready to be picked up.

And it begins…

First Repair

So, a week later, I go in to pick up the car after being told the air conditioning has been fixed. I sit down in the car, ready to drive away, and turn the air con on. Of course, it's not working - hot as can be. Felt like fire bursting out of the fans on this 33 degree summer day. I walked back inside and spoke with the salesman who claims he is certain they fixed it, and "even got the thermometer out to check it". Absolute BS. So, he says, take it away and if it still isn't working, just bring it back and we'll sort it. After having driven an hour, I was ready to take the car and sort it out later, assuming it would be a fairly straightforward process.

Second Repair

I call again and organise a repair. I bring it in again a few days later, then receive a call 2 days after that saying it has been fixed. I go to pick it up, test it out, and it's working! Everything seems okay. I drove the car around for about a week, and started hearing what sounded like a gas leak from within the car. Shortly after this, the air con stopped blowing cold air.

Third Repair

I called them again and arranged another repair. This time, the salesman (still the same guy, mind you) says he will speak to his manager about taking it to an air con specialist. I take the car in and they take it to the specialist. Two weeks later, I get a call saying it's fixed and I go in and pick it up. They gave me a copy of the paperwork from the third party air con specialist which says it cost around $2500 to fix, and they replaced the "evaporator core". It made no other notes aside from the fact that they found a fault with it and replaced it.

All went well for nearly a month, until…

Fourth Repair

The air con started making the same damn noise again. The sound of a gas pipe leaking, coming right from the fans inside the cabin. 1 hour later, no more cold air is coming out. God dammit. I call them again, and organise ANOTHER repair.

This time, it took 1-2 weeks between my initial call and involved me chasing him up multiple times, just to get a date where I could bring it in. Finally, I take it in again. He says they will take it to the air con repairer again because they have an obligation to repair it, given the dealership has already paid them to fix it once. I say fair enough and leave.

The BS begins

So, today, I get a call saying they've found the issue! Apparently, I have driven over a rock which has damaged the condenser, and they insist it is a fresh issue and not the same one I initially brought it in for. They are now asking me to pay $800 to fix and keep pulling the "we're just passing the message on from the repairer" nonsense.

What can I do in this situation? I've stated my case via text and have full evidence of all the previous repairs & the agreement in the contract that the air con be repaired. I've only had the car for ~60 days — less if you account for the time it's been in the shop. How can I prove that I didn't cause this issue? I know I haven't driven over any rocks, I only take this damn car out a few times a week to the local shops and the occasional highway drive. Never heard a noise whatsoever, and there are no signs of rocks hitting the bumper or anything.

Advice would be greatly appreciated.

Poll Options

  • 305
    Contact the ACCC
  • 12
    You're stuffed
  • 8
    Take them to small claims court
  • 2
    You'll be fine given the circumstances
  • 2
    I'd get legal advice

Comments

    • +21

      Check the top. Can you really not read this many lines?


      Here's the cliff notes.

      Purchased car from Zupps with broken air con
      Before purchasing, wrote it into contract that issue must be fixed. Dealer & I signed contract.
      Issue has been "repaired" 3 times now within <60 days of buying the car
      Air con has now failed for the 4th time
      Took car in again and am now being told a rock caused the damage and I must pay $800
      
        • +27

          Hence cliff notes.

        • +2

          I bet you wish that what she'd say.

      • I think he was expecting your TLDR at the end of the post, not the start of it. That's what threw him off. He reflexively jumped right to the end and didn't see it so assumed it wasn't there.

    • +13

      OP has already provided TLDR.

      He has tricked you by not presenting the issue in a jumbled ranting wall of text.

      • But it was called "cliff notes" and at the top. This is worthy of war, like which side you butter your bread on.

        • I know, I read it. It was just above the heading -

          And here's the longer version for those who are interested.

    • New car from a dealer has broken air con. Isn't fixed after 4 tries.

      • —- cheat notes

      • +1

        But with a TLDR that short, I'd have to wade through comments of people asking "why didn't you do this?" and "you should have done that", leading to others having to piece the story together bit by bit by sorting through my fragmented answers given throughout the thread.

        Honestly, I'd just add some detail :)

    • +1

      Another one who can't read and has to pretend the post is too long.

  • can we assume that the used dealer have documentation from their mechanic stating that there is physical damage to the undercarriage? you need to engage your own mechanic to dispute the used dealer's findings.

    • Problem is…When did it happen???? and proving this too!

  • They have asked if I would like to go inspect the damage. I believe there is damage, however I also believe it has been there from the start, which would explain why all other repairs fail and the gas just slowly leaks out again.

    They certainly have no evidence that the condenser WAS fine, as far as I am aware.

    • +7

      There are three scenarios possible here.

      1. Dealers are being honest - you ran over something hard and the condenser is now broken. It is purely coincidental that the only part that suffered in your alleged collision is the one part they've failed to provide a reliable fix.

      2. Aircon problem persists - the aircon has never worked, it is due to a cracked condenser and it has taken this long for the dealers to realise this. They're not happy to bear the repair expense.

      3. Dealers are looking for scapegoats - the mechanics are starting to look foolish as their repairs never work and they're not receiving further income from you. They would be killing two birds with one stone if they inflict physical damage on your car now. You can't prove otherwise since no one is ever that detailed when signing a condition report before hand off to mechanics (nor are there always forms for it). They are now able to say they've successfully fixed your initial problem but you've got new problems that require payment. Just so happens that the problems have the exact same symptoms.

      If all is as you describe, the answer here is 3.

    • We have documentation that there was a fault which has been attempted to be fixed but failed each time… Nowhere did anybody say that the condenser etc. was fine after each prior repair, leading me to believe they missed it repeatedly.

      Curious, what would 'documentation' look like in this case?

        • +15

          So are you saying I should have taken photographic evidence that there was a hole in the condenser?

          I'm not a mechanic, I took it straight back to them to investigate. How would a reasonable person know to take that photograph?

      • +7

        If you do not have photos or an independant mechanic with technical descriptions of the problem, it comes down to he say she say.

        Fortunately, if your description of the problem has been consistent, a panel would likely rule that the problem was never fixed and it is extremely unlikely that the only damage the car has ever suffered whilst under your possession causes the only problem you've been complaining since day-1.

  • -2

    Is it not covered under the "premium" warranty you bought?

    Take it back, ask for the manager there. Email them and tell them you expect it to be fixed and don't see why you should pay. If they have an issue with that say that you'll take it further.

    They paid $2500 to have it repaired so it should have some sort of warranty at least for that.

    PS mate, remove the name of the dealer. They've been a bit annoying so far but I wouldn't name and shame them yet.

    • +2

      It should be covered, but they are saying that I have caused my own damage between the 3rd repair and now, and that I have to pay for that. Given all 3 prior repairs failed within similar time frames, I am reluctant to buy this bs.

      • +4

        Take it to ACCC and VCAT

        • +7

          OP is in Brisbane, so I am assuming that VCAT wont give a flying rats ringbit…

          ACCC wont really be that interested. OP needs to get onto their own states fair trading department and lodge a complaint. Maybe even contact MTAQ and report it or give someone like RACQ a call and ask them what they would suggest.

          MTAQ Complaints Page.

        • -8

          @pegaxs:

          WOW - thanks for sarcasm

          Then replace the V for a Q

          https://www.qld.gov.au/law/your-rights/consumer-rights-compl…

        • +3

          @oscargamer:

          No sarcasm intended, and I agree'd with you. OP should contact a governing body. MTAQ is a good place to start, even though they are not a government body, they can assist in where to go next and can go in on your behalf to bat.

          If MTAQ is not going well, then yes, contact QCAT as the next stop on the ladder to get a resolve to the issue.

          QCAT Consumer/Trader Dispute Website

        • +4

          @pegaxs: Don't waste your time with MTAQ, they exist to serve their members interests, not consumers.
          I suggest small claims QCAT, easy process.

        • It's true ACCC are useless - I speak from experience with a high end new motorcycle. The law and conditions were all on my side, the dealer didn't give a shit because he knew accc don't want to do anything.

      • +3

        You (consumer) have bought a product (car) with a minor fault (air conditioning) and has returned to the retailer (dealership) for remedy (repair).

        A retailer cannot differ their responsibility to provide remedy to a manufacturer or third party.

        They tried to play that route by getting you to acknowledge an air conditioning specialist took over the job. It is irrelevant to you.

        Basic consumer law.

        They're now trying to claim that the issue was resolved and you've accepted the item as fixed. Therefore, whatever claims are new claims and the damage identified is not related to previous claim.

        None of the above are true. You did not accept that the fix was satisfactory. You didn't have to prove you didn't accept it either as the fault is recurring. It was never resolved. All they've done is merely added a finding (broken condenser) and concluded they are no longer liable for your warranty or condition of purchase.

  • -6

    Op, you can remove contact the accc. This has nothing to do with them.

    • +4

      ACCC website has a dedicated page about used cars sold by dealers - it says any fault within 90 days must be fixed under statutory warranty… Why wouldn't it concern them?

      Not trying to be negative, just wondering why you'd say it has nothing to do with that?

      • +3

        Qld fair trading is the state department that handles individual complaints like yours.
        https://www.qld.gov.au/law/laws-regulated-industries-and-acc…

        The accc goes after the big guys like Kogan, msy, hn, tp, etc, for offences like misleading advertising.

        • +3

          this happened to me in SA I went to the ACCC first they said to go to the Consumer Business services(SA), I also asked the ACCC for legal advice on what to do they said go talk to a lawyer. In the end, went through magistrate court was actually easy to do thought it would be harder

        • Yep, just enough to keep the pr machine ticking over.

  • +1

    In NSW there is warranty for used cars for a short period (can't remember length). You should quote this in written format along with the contract clause. You should possibly consider threat suing by breach of contract and consumer law.

  • +7

    Instead of the ACCC, I would start with MTAQ and lodge a complaint with them and seek some advice.

    If that doesn’t help, (and do this as a pre-emptive strike), as others have said, take it up with Qld Fair Trading.

    Having worked in the Automotive trade, this seriously sounds like a crock of bullshit. It sounds like they were just trying to cover the warranty themselves and shirking it off until they found something to put back on you.

    But, to be fair and balanced, it is also entirely possible that it could have happened. (I am NOT backing the dealer here, just saying that it is "possible")

    This was always my fear when doing warranty work like this, that something else would go wrong and be unrelated to the initial problem, but now, because of the new problem, the customer thinks both are the same issue.

    • Is it not common practice to take images of before and after the work as been done as documentation?

      • +2

        No work was ever done on the condenser. Why would they photograph it?

      • +2

        It is in a lot of cases now, but it is too hard to photograph to allow for every single possible eventuality.

        The problem is, lets say, in this case, the A/C compressor was the fault. I replaced it and took photos of it. Tested it and all works well. OP drives down the road and a rock punches a hole in the condenser. OP comes back to me, super pissed because the issue isn’t fixed. It's impossible for me to have known to take photos of the condenser, as that was not the focus of the repairs. To OP, because the symptoms are identical, it's the same issue, to me, it's completely different.

        While photos are great and can save your arse a lot of the time, you can't keep a record to cover everything that "may" happen.

      • I use video now. It may not be as detailed but it is far easier to document the whole car for major defects.

    • +2

      Doesn't look like they're a member of MTAQ :(

      I'll contact Qld Fair Trading tomorrow.

      • Doesn't look like they're a member of MTAQ

        If they pull this shit on a regular basis, I'm not surprised.

        But give MTAQ a call anyway, they will have a good idea of what steps you will need to follow, regardless of this dealer being a member or not.

  • +35

    I think the big mistake was buying a Peugeot.

    • Hehe

      • As I said in a previous thread involving buying a Peugeot…

        Friends don't let friends buy Peugeot :)

        But that all said and done… DAMN I want an RCZ-R. I am almost at a point where I am willing to put up with shit quality just to own one. If i was going to buy a Peugeot, the RCZ would be the only model I would consider.

        • +5

          exactly. my brother had a peugot and the gearbox died. he had only owned it for 10 years and it only had 285,000kms on the clock and he drove it like a rally car and never had it serviced.

          a real piece of shit car.

        • +5

          @altomic:

          Be easier to win the lottery than to find a reliable French made automobile. :P

          Your brother rolled the dice and got lucky. Many more are not so fortunate.

        • +5

          @altomic:

          never had it serviced.

          That’s hard to believe.

        • @whooah1979: well, home serviced.

        • +2

          @altomic:
          What's the difference between a home service and a mechanic service?

          I reckon anyone with common sense and a decent internet connection can do almost anything.

        • @tshow: >What's the difference between a home service and a mechanic service?

          $0 labour cost

        • @altomic:
          Damn you're quick.

          But I'll be pedantic. Oil and filters will still cost ~$40-$120.

          Edit - damn, I realise you wrote labour as well.

        • Same. They require a lot of remedial work but the R has potential on the track.

          I wired up a mate's car for telemetry and redid the dash. Had to strip out the entire dashboard and centre console. The clips that hold it in were some of the worst I've seen, worse than a Corolla. The wiring was also messy. We ended up putting the dash back together with a whole lot of Velcro and quick connect buckles (about $200 worth).

        • @tshow:

          The wiring was also messy.

          I swear to God, Euro car makers have spray cans of wire that comes out like silly string. They just spray it everywhere it needs to go, throw plugs in the mess and slam the dash on before the silly wire dries out.

          Don’t get me started on Kenworth truck wiring though.

        • @pegaxs:
          My German made VWs have neat wiring but not the ones from the Spanish plant.

          In fact, on of the VW wiring was neater than the Audi. Identical wiring components and routing, just neater.

          Have never worked on a truck but what's wrong with the trucks?

        • +2

          @tshow:

          Kenworth are hopeless. I swear there are no wiring diagrams, it’s all done from memory and scraps they have laying about. I don’t think I have ever worked on two trucks that were the same…

          All the wires are routed over and around sharp edges to make sure they take the least amount of time possible to rub through and short out. And they run wires through the only places you can never get access to them ever again and make sure that’s where the fail happens.

          Trucks spend a lot of time out in the weather, so they don’t bother with waterproof plugs. They use plastic plugs that fall apart and the terminals are made out of paper, so the slightest bit of water causes them to disintegrate…

          Oh, add to that that some trucks are 24v. Some are 12v. Some are 12v running and 24v starting… you find out it’s a 24v system when you accidentally short your tool out and it just turns into molten metal.

          Apart from that, nothing wrong with truck electrical systems… :D

        • @pegaxs:
          That's very informative.

          Looks like I have to watch out for those things when making my moving bunker for the zombie apocolypse.

        • What's the difference between a home service and a mechanic service?

          $0 labour cost

          … and higher cost oil and filters from mechanic.

    • +4

      I think the big mistake was taking the car off site in the first place when the AC wasn't working at point of pick up.

  • +1

    If the EXACT SAME problem happened again to me after someone had "repaired" a fault, I'd be taking it to someone else and getting their opinion on it.
    Then taking it back and making sure the actual fault was fixed, with proper documentation. FOR FREE.

    • True, but they ticked this box by taking it to a third party… Or so I thought at the time.

      • +2

        Fair enough, but I meant I would have personally got someone else to check it, not told by an unknown party that they got someone else to look at it. They could have been a mate of the car dealers for all you know.

        It seems you can't trust anyone these days….

        Hope it all works out in your favour.

  • +6

    Have a look at condenser and see how fresh the damage looks. If its just happend the scratches will still be shinny, if it was always there it will show signs of corrosion and have road grime/cob webs over it.

    • +8

      They sent me a pic.

      Covered in road gunk, looks like it's been there for months.

  • +9

    Very unlikely a rock would do this. Otherwise these cars would have constant air con issues. Get a second opinion

  • +1

    Contact RACQ and request them to review the vehicle AC and your chain of repair interventions, I expect they could give you some handy advice!.

  • Have you contacted the manufacturer directly???

  • +4

    It seems Peugeots have been getting a bad deal on OzBargain recently.
    But just because they fall apart a lot doesn't mean they're a bad car.

    • The car itself seems fine, just crappy electronics

    • +1

      But just because they fall apart a lot doesn't mean they're a bad car.

      This is sarcasm yeah?

      • +1

        Yeah.

        • Nice

  • Brisbane City or Zupps by any chance? Ughhhh…

    • Hahaha why do you ask?

      • +1

        Both as hopeless as each other.

  • +3

    a used Peugeot RCZ. 2012 model with 90,000KM

    Well there's your problem.

    All the best with resolving this issue. keep us updated.

  • +1

    Same thing happened to me. I bought a nearly new Caprice V8 from Adelaide and drove it back to Brisbane.
    On the way a rock flew up from the road and pierced the condenser.
    I didn't hear or feel anything but by the time I was home it was obvious that the A/C had failed.
    It's a well known issue on those cars and you can even buy a stone guard to protect it.

    • +3

      Those cars? V8 Caprice and Peugeot RCZ have nothing in common lol

      • They both have a condenser that is situated in such a position to be vulnerable to damage from stones thrown up from the road.
        [Apologies to the intelligent readers for having to spell it out to the not so intelligent].

        • +2

          I'm with OP, you should have made your point clearer.

          3/10

        • -1

          @Mrgreenz: Tell your mother, she might care.

  • +2

    Watch this video from the ABC's Checkout program. https://youtu.be/uNyGUqrKBjQ

  • I've never understood why people would trust anything that a used car dealship says.. there is a stereotype for a reason!!

    Did you have the car inspected prior to purchase? If so, what was their advice on the A/C issue? Did they state that it had been caused due to damage to the condenser?

    It seems that you took on the liability for these issues.

    A clause in a contract is meaningless (for you) if it's not well defined. IMHO the dealership will claim that they solved the issue and you have no way to prove that they didn't. "He said she said scenario". See the earlier statement about defining the issues at the beginning.

    I'm sorry that you are having to go through all of this. I've been there before, many times with many issues (not just cars). It's an important lesson to learn though.

    • +3

      Hmm, I think I will take it to court if I have to. I am pretty sure I would win given the fact the repairs have failed consistently within the same time-frames each time. We will see, though!

      • IMHO the only people who will win if you take it to court are the lawyers.

        I don't understand why people spend so much energy fighting after the fact, instead of learning from the mistake and avoiding the same scenario in the future.

        If you knew something was wrong, surely an RACQ (or a similar company) pre-inspection checks that would have clarified what was actually needing to be fixed.

        • +1

          So much time? It's $800 and I've spent like 2 hours max since I heard about the cost 24 hours ago haha.

          I dunno about you but I'm not making $400 an hour

        • -1

          @OGnelz:

          Getting lawyers involved will cost you both time and money.

          I don't understand why you wouldn't get a pre-purchase inspection done by a third party. It's a small upfront cost that can avoid a large headache later on.

          You accepted the risk when you purchased the car knowing that it had issues. Then you agreed to the purchase when you drove the car from the dealership.

          While you are sitting waiting for a solution at the dealership, you will probably see other disgruntled customers who are also unhappy with the risk they accepted, that turned into an expensive problem later on. Used car dealers are not only used to this, they plan for it.

          As others have already said, spend your time/money getting the car assessed by a specialist. I'd want to know what caused the issue so I know what other issues are likely to happen in the future.

          Or call up ACA, hold up a sign in front of the business, write another forum post about how you purchased a used car (100k) that turned out to be a lemon. People may be surprised to hear that this happened and appreciate the PSA.

        • +1

          @thom: the loser in a civil dispute pays all lawyers fees, so if they win, it's free

  • +2

    Tell them you'll stand in front of their dealership holding up a sign "Dodgy sellers selling lemons" until they fix your car

  • I think the issue is repair 3 and what happened subsequently. If there really was an audible leak from inside the car then it's still going to the evaporator or associated connections. The fact it took longer to fail would tend to indicate "something" had changed.. The condenser is normally mounted near the water radiator and a leak there would not normally be audible inside the car.

    One possible scenario is the 3rd party repairer has realised that they stuffed up repair 4 but now want to recoup some of their costs by billing you for a condenser. It's also true that any A/C Specialist should have checked for leaks when they did the repair and used some coloured dye to indicate slow leaks etc.

    It could of course be the condenser but the fact that a hissing was audible inside the car makes me wonder….

    What to do? Frankly take to an AC specialist and get a leak test done. Get it in writing and see where you go with that. Hopefully you will avoid the 3rd party repairer in so doing though.

    All very frustrating but this is a small hiccup relative to a fun car like the RCZ.

    • +1

      Thanks for the tips. I agree, the car has been super pleasant to drive, and honestly the air con isn't a huge issue in and of itself.

      But alas, if I don't sort this out within my warranty I'll be out of pocket which is bs considering the circumstances.

  • +11

    Buying a Peugeot with close to 100k is just a fancier way of flushing cash down the drain.

    100% I'll be negg'ed for this. Sorry Peugeot car owners.

    • Have a +1 to make you feel better for all those neg votes your comment has accumulated.

      In all seriousness though my ex-inlaws bought a new Peugeot in Brissy from a mob that starts with a Z and ends in an s. Similar experience but not with aircon though. More like it couldn't drive up a hill without stalling. Extras? Yeah nah what a pig's breakfast.

      • Starts with a Z and ends in an s alright ;)

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