Store (Harvey Norman) Gave My Order to Someone Else (Possible Fraud?)

LHappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 17:18
Last edited 24/12/2017 - 22:46 by 1 other user

Hey guys, just in a bit of a difficult situation at the moment and looking for some advice.

I ordered something online from a store a month ago and my payment went through. The next day they called and said it wasn't in stock but I could wait for it to be in stock then pick it up. I chased them up via online chat a few weeks later and they said it was actually ready to be picked up a week ago.

I called the store and they said I had already gone to pick it up. Apparently, someone else showed my ID and after a week of back and forth, they said to go to the police.

Are there any other paths I can take to get the product / get money back? Any advice appreciated, thanks.

General Discussion

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Harvey Norman
Harvey Norman

Comments

  • Nugs on 22/12/2017 - 17:21
    +27

    ask them to show evidence of ID check

    • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 17:26
      +4

      In response to that, they said that they went through the normal procedure to confirm and check id (which was just checking license as far as I know which had my details apparently). It doesn't really answer the question but I feel like they won't give me much more without pressure from the police.

      • loke on 22/12/2017 - 17:27
        +3

        What was the value of the goods? Iis this a big retail chain store?

        • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 18:18
          +11

          370 for a Nintendo switch from Harvey Norman. It was that deal from big W the other week.

        • MikeKulls on 27/12/2017 - 09:02
          +4

          @HappyXD: mate, the real issue is someone is faking your details and supposedly has a copy of your ID. This is identity fraud and the least of your worries is a single purchase that you may have lost. Next they will be taking out loans in your name. Get some real advice from the police. I believe you can put an alert next to your name so banks don't hand out your cash.

          As for the Nintendo I'm sure HN will give you another one if you keep pushing them.

        • Quantumcat on 28/12/2017 - 00:07
          +19

          @MikeKulls: I don't think there was any identify fraud here, HN probably just accidentally gave someone the wrong order

        • MikeKulls on 28/12/2017 - 00:45

          @Quantumcat: that is possible and would be the best outcome once they work it out. But if it really was fraud it could be an issue for the OP. Someone has their ID and is using it.

        • [Deactivated] on 28/12/2017 - 12:57
          +12

          @Quantumcat is on the money.

          There's no fraud, and all the talk in this thread about fraud and theft and police is just off-beam.
          Get a grip!

          The facts just don't stack up for a fake ID, as a fraudster would need to:

          1. Source the fake ID (or nick real ID).

          2. Know that the OP has made the purchase, and know where to pick it up.

          3. Be prepared to risk using the fake ID (or real if that's the case) for just a once-off.

          There's no fraud. There's just been a cock up, that's all. Shop has a policy of checking ID - and may well have done so, but gave out the wrong item.

          CCTV won't help much - just shows someone picking up your stuff (at best). They probably ordered a towel, but got the thingy you ordered instead. There's an unclaimed package somewhere in there, with a towel in it. Maybe they went back later and picked up their own item, or sent a mate, so maybe it's no longer there. Doesn't matter: there's CCTV showing you didn't pick it up - you'd think that would be enough for a retailer…

          I judge and jury conclude that the shop is at fault. And remember the foundational principle: Things go wrong because there are idiots out there. Idiots are always involved, in everything, and every now and again we're one of them.

      • oscargamer on 22/12/2017 - 17:29
        +13

        do they have CCTV in store?

        if yes - it's easy - it won't be you on the video and the store still needs to provide you with your item

        if no cctv, not so easy, but still a store issue, not a police issue

        • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 18:18
          +2

          Yes they did and it wasn't me. Since they say it's a case of fraud I have to go to the police and they can't do anything about it.

        • oscargamer on 22/12/2017 - 18:33
          +5

          @HappyXD:

          get it in writing that they believe you collected the goods and get them to provide evidence of that, be it a scribble on a piece of paper of your driver licence number, or a record of whatever id 'you' provided (with the number of that)

          once they provide that in writing, post back here

        • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 19:35

          @oscargamer: what if they refuse? Sorry, I've never done C&C before so I don't know the normal procedure when someone comes to collect.

        • Almost Banned on 22/12/2017 - 20:24
          +79

          @HappyXD: But the person committed a fraud on THEM, not on you.
          So, while it may be a case of fraud - they are the ones with the problem and they need to report it.
          In the meantime you have a simple consumer contract with them for provision of a Nintendo Switch. Since they have not provided one to you they are obliged to do so.

        • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 20:30

          @blaircam: in their mind, they are unsure of whether or not I'm trying to pull something on them and get another switch perhaps and that I'm faking this whole thing. That's why they think they are not obliged to provide me with anything and should go to police. I asked why aren't they reporting to the police and they say it's my identity that may have been faked so I'd have to be the one going to police, not them.

        • Slippery Fish on 23/12/2017 - 17:21
          +30

          @HappyXD: not your issue. Tell them that under consumer Law they MUST provide you with your goods to keep your money. Tell them being scammed is a criminal offence and THEY must wear that cost and contact the police.

          After all if you did scam them the police will come knocking lol.

        • poohduck on 24/12/2017 - 11:14

          @blaircam: Awesome answer - this sounds right

        • DangerNoodle on 24/12/2017 - 15:40
          +4

          @Slippery Fish: I agree. As they are at fault, they need to give you your items and sort things out on their end. They have your details if they need to contact you for anything but it is on them to absorb the cost and lodge the claim. For all we know, their staff probably didn't follow procedure. The amount of times I've heard staff say 'are you picking up a ps4 under Robert?', when they should be asking you for your name, ID and product just in case someone else with the same name comes in.

          Contact the ACCC and mention what happened, they will usually give you an emailed response that you can print off and bring in store to force their hand.

          Slightly different, but I did this with digimob in the city when they said they would fix my device but they ended up bricking my phone and trying to charge me for it. Brought in an email exchange from the ACCC and they had to fix it for free.

        • Hirolol on 24/12/2017 - 17:55

          @HappyXD:
          Why didn't you include that in your op or edit it in?
          Pretty sure that's a crucial part.

        • akashra on 25/12/2017 - 13:44
          +3

          @HappyXD:
          Tell them you'll be going to the police to report a case of fraud, but it will be against them for taking your money and refusing to provide the product you paid for.

          As far as you are concerned, they've been unable to provide any evidence they've given the item to another person, or who that person is, so for all you know they took your money and were planning to try this on as a scam from the start. Imagine if every store could just get away with this every time - "Oh, sorry sir, your item has already been collected". So they've just taken your money and never provide an item, in the hopes the person won't bother to chase it up.

          Yeah, nah.

          They're the ones who need to sort this out on their end and THEY need to take it to the police, not you. You've had no interaction with the fraudster, and they have all the evidence of any interaction, and you've provided evidence you are who you say you are.

        • GregMonarch on 26/12/2017 - 18:04
          +3

          @HappyXD: How on earth would someone know you had made that purchase, from that store, AND have your license!?

        • smartazz104 on 26/12/2017 - 18:09
          +7

          @GregMonarch: Inside job…

        • Wallyt99 on 27/12/2017 - 19:45
          +5

          @smartazz104: exactly… Staff member sees switch sitting there for a week and figure its not getting collected… tells mate to come in… 'licence' is flashed to put on a show for cctv. Fraud completed.

        • Zilch on 27/12/2017 - 22:26

          @Wallyt99:

          Most likely what happened

        • siresteelhell on 31/12/2017 - 21:59

          @HappyXD:
          Tell them to get F`d, THEY need to go to the cops not you…

      • ninetyNineCents on 22/12/2017 - 17:31
        +24

        Probably easiest to put in a fraud claim against your CC.

      • Ocker on 22/12/2017 - 18:04
        +48

        So someone that has a copy of your license just happened to know there was an order at that store in your name waiting to be collected.
        Bit of a stretch.

        • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 18:19
          +6

          Yes I know right! Unfortunately I don't know what I can do because it's just a he said she said thing.

        • bigticket on 22/12/2017 - 19:37
          +15

          @HappyXD: It their responsibility to hold the item in safe keeping for pickup and not give it out willy nilly. I doubt someone had a dup of your licence, but rather their id check was lacking or non-existant.

          Don't go to police, try fair trading or relevant ombudsmen in your state.

          As a last resort… chargeback.

        • Presence on 22/12/2017 - 22:14
          +1

          There's lots of way this could happen. Eg. A compromised Google/Apple/MS account. Plenty of people store their IDs online, and the thief would get an email saying when pickup is. It wouldn't be hard to make a fake good enough to fool HN.

          The other option is a corrupt employee who copied his ID last time he picked up an order.

        • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 23:42
          +2

          @Presence: the problem is I never got an email to go pick up. The only reason I found out about this was contacting them via online chat. I don't know if this counts but I checked the history of my Google account and it doesn't show any unknown logins.

        • Slippery Fish on 23/12/2017 - 17:23
          +1

          @HappyXD: it's likely like my local post office, someone with a similar last name came in said I've got a pick up, then they grabbed the parcel that was your not theirs. Tell them to re-check what's left in holding and give you your bloody switch, hulk out and punch the manager in the junk and bite someone's ear off.

          You'll get a switch from home to jail at the least lol.

        • Sigiriya on 24/12/2017 - 22:46
          +5

          @Slippery Fish: You guys may not believe, once I was rushing to a airport where lot of politicians transit and a popular carrier's flight which was about to close with a check in bag. The staff at the counter told me that I cannot check in the bag because I have already checked in the bag. I told her I just walked in to the airport and it was impossible for me to check in a bag and it was the only bag I had. Then they checked with the cabin staff and apparently there is a person with my boarding pass and a checked in bag, already boarded to the aircraft.
          Long story short they organised another boarding pass and checked in my bag after verifying my ID and aircraft was waiting for me because of this drama which took quite a time to sort out. They walked me to the aircraft and a woman was sitting on my seat with boarding pass with my name on it and who checked in the bag. Ironically she was wearing a hijab. No offence, but good enough for me to freak out to think will I be getting out of the plain in one piece. Go figure how this happend on a high security airport. What is HN compared to this?

        • username999 on 25/12/2017 - 03:55
          +5

          @CX9: Wow… if the story is true…wtf!

        • [Deactivated] on 25/12/2017 - 06:18

          @CX9: obviously you are okay but I would have refused to fly and made a ruckus to leave the flight.

        • Levathian on 25/12/2017 - 20:49

          @CX9: shouldn't you report that to someone…

        • Sigiriya on 26/12/2017 - 11:23
          +1

          @Pepsii: I don't think I can come up with a such a story if you ask me to do :-)

        • Sigiriya on 26/12/2017 - 11:28

          @Lad92: I was thinking the same, but then I thought it was air line's fault which they corrected after I raise it with them. It was a serious security breach, but I don't know to whom to report it….

        • Levathian on 26/12/2017 - 13:19
          +2

          @CX9: CASA?

        • ChaLuo on 27/12/2017 - 09:48

          @CX9: Is this real. why wasn't this on the news? Was the woman who faked your identity arrested?

        • Sigiriya on 27/12/2017 - 22:48

          @ChaLuo: Not sure whether her intention was to fake my identity. I would imagine she received the boarding pass from the counter or on self check in machine and did not look at the name and just walked it in to air craft. I know it is hard to believe and she had a brief word with me and apologised when getting out of the flight and she spoke very good English so it is not that she could not read. I did not ask for her name, wondering whether she had a similar name to mine. No Police were involved. Airline staff sorted it. However it is a big red flag on the security of the airports and somebody can check in a bag and get in to a air craft with fake identify.

      • berry580 on 24/12/2017 - 19:17
        +2

        Like other people said, seller has been been hit by with fraud, not you. You ultimately didn't get the item. So you should still rightfully get you goods. If they don't play ball, lodge a case with your credit card.

        It's not fair to the store, but that's part of doing business as if someone went to the store to steal something.

      • SpendLess on 24/12/2017 - 21:09
        +2

        also telling you that they showed you ID is not good enough. You would be thinking that you would have to sign things off. I always had to when doing pick up at the stores i did pickup…BCF, dan murphy

        • D6C1 on 27/12/2017 - 21:03

          User name checks out.

      • Major Mess on 25/12/2017 - 05:01
        +1

        I had similar happen to me last week(The Good Guys). In my case someone processing in the store for pick up ticked the wrong box when they were notified to reserve the stock. They get a signature at pick up, which in my case did not exist and their was no indication of pickup in their physical record. Have you sighted their record of the signature?

      • edgar28 on 27/12/2017 - 11:42
        +1

        Harvey norman in my place usually photocopied my ID as proof (even if it's a 5 dollar stuff)

        • solidussnake on 28/12/2017 - 06:01

          For privacy laws HN should only be copying licences if its for Finance applications only, storing them im pretty sure is illegal

      • siresteelhell on 31/12/2017 - 21:57

        Id be claiming BS, because if they checked "your" licence, they would have seen it wasnt you. They were defrauded, not you…

      • CheapskateQueen on 02/01/2018 - 23:19

        What was the result of this?

        I actually bought Nintendo switch for my friend for pick up with HN. Didn't realize they needed ID check on pick up (blonde moment) which meant I had to get it which was impossible. Anyway she went and picked it up herself no trouble. Never mentioned any ID check or whether they questioned her at all. I mean i had forwarded her the receipts but whose to say my email didn't get hacked?

    • drsplodge on 28/12/2017 - 00:31
      +2

      HN need to report to police. After all they are the ones with the video evidence…

      If the video evidence is suddenly gone…. smells like inside job…

      Someone faking your ID and knowing you bought from that exact store is a 1 in a million chance….

  • mattelinc on 22/12/2017 - 17:29
    +3

    What retailer is this? Is it your signature that signed off on it?

    I do C&C orders often and they are anal AF. I would tell the store to get your item.

    • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 18:55

      HN.i would have to ask about a signature. Is that normal procedure?

      • fossilfuel on 22/12/2017 - 19:28
        +1

        I know stores like Bing Lee and target require a signature for CC, just like signing a parcel from startrack. Double check with HN if they have a signature.

        • Tuftsdude on 24/12/2017 - 19:04

          They do take signatures, they took one when I picked up my SNES.

  • No on 22/12/2017 - 17:50
    +10

    They have to supply the goods and they haven't.

    If you paid by CC ring up and threaten to do a charge back. If that doesnt get there attention do the charge back, its fairly easy.

      • oscargamer on 22/12/2017 - 19:06
        +42

        hhmmm…. you don't have the item !

        • berry580 on 24/12/2017 - 19:19
          +1

          I couldn't put it better myself. Lol

      • Cheapascents on 22/12/2017 - 19:55
        +10

        forget about them item for now, and just try to get your money back, because right now you can say you're short of $370 or short of the nintendo product your bought.

  • PissLUR on 22/12/2017 - 17:53
    -1

    Name and shame.

  • benderz on 22/12/2017 - 17:57
    +8

    Very unlikely that id was shown, so the store accidentally gave your order away or they messed up with stock and decided that it's easier to say the order is fulfilled.

    I wouldn't be messing around too much with them. Report it to your bank as fraudulent and do a charge back if necessary. What company is this btw?

    • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 18:49
      +2

      HN

      • minniethemoocher on 23/12/2017 - 13:58
        +1

        Or perhaps they got your order and someone else’s mixed up. It especially can happen when everyone’s names and orders are listed on the same sheet. Maybe ask them to check the sheet that was signed.

    • bchliu on 27/12/2017 - 14:29
      +2

      There are always CCTVs pointed at the Cashiers in all HN (Don't ask, but I know for a fact..) and technically it is even good enough quality to check what denomination of notes are used for a transaction as an example. This actually can prove one way or another that the cashier (usually the photocentre or equivalent with the locked store room for online sales) actually did the check of the ID or not.
      I think the bigger problem is making sure that the OP's own ID isn't compromised at the moment. It is rather scary if they know enough of your details to do a License ID and know what they have ordered online through HN. If it is a human error by the Cashier, then the OP can sleep easier and I'm sure between HN / HN's Insurance / Bank / ACCC can work it out.

  • 87percent on 22/12/2017 - 17:59
    +4

    Everytime I've showed my DL when picking up an item, they always write it down

  • myusername on 22/12/2017 - 18:06
    +3

    name and shame

    probably one of the staff

  • Ocker on 22/12/2017 - 18:51

    Simply demand proof the item was collected, and by whom. If they cannot or will not provide the information then it is a case of fraud.

    • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 18:57

      If it a case of fraud doesn't mean it'll involve the police?

      • omgitzrick on 22/12/2017 - 19:06
        +11

        Why are you worried about going to the police?

        • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 19:15

          I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I will inevitably go to them but I feel like it's a long process and I may not get the item in the end. Was meant to be a gift.

        • No on 22/12/2017 - 19:26
          +8

          @HappyXD: I don't think its you who should be going to the police. The item was stolen from the store, its never been in your possession.

      • oscargamer on 22/12/2017 - 19:06
        +5

        ffs - just ask them to provide evidence of you collecting or get them to provide the item

      • nobarginsarehere on 27/12/2017 - 22:09

        The cops dont even want to come to a car crash unless the damage is > $2000 (or people are hurt / intoxicated), why would they care about a switch lol

  • oscargamer on 22/12/2017 - 19:42
    +27

    i think this is a troll thread

    you paid for an item you haven't received

    TALK TO THE FxxxG STORE

  • PissLUR on 22/12/2017 - 19:43
    +2

    Harvey Norman C&C.

    Two different employees are required to complete a C&C.

    First person is someone who checks your order, performs id check, grabs the item and takes it to the checkout.
    and
    Second person is the cashier at the checkout.

    Can you get the names of these two? and check with them perhaps.

    • Wallyt99 on 27/12/2017 - 19:52

      This wasnt the case when I purchased something. One person only.

  • garetz on 22/12/2017 - 19:46
    +10

    I have 2 words for you, charge back.

  • chumlee on 22/12/2017 - 22:11
    +2

    There is fraud and there is negligence.

    HN say fraud, you say negligence unless they can provide proof they adequately identified the customer picking up the goods. Most retailers write down your drivers license number and expiry so ask for these and then ckmpare to your license

    Or just do a charge back

    • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 23:45
      +1

      Thanks =] I'll take that into consideration.

  • smuggler on 22/12/2017 - 23:03
    -5

    Dude if it's just a stupid gift, why are you so slow to initiate a chargeback? Why are there so many hopeless cases with money?

  • BertieBrown on 22/12/2017 - 23:14
    +4

    So, OP have you actually seen alleged ‘doppleganger’ on camera? Or is HN just saying that they saw someone other than you?

    See, here’s the thing in my mind, if I have enough of your details to set this up (I.E; fake license, order details etc etc) I’m not going to be dicking around by collecting a Nintendo switch from HN; a why bother to get my mug on camera so I can be potentially identified and b; why bother with such a small value item? Credit cards, bank accounts and the like would be the obvious target here. It just doesn’t track.

    That’s just my opinion of course, who knows maybe there is a clandestine Switch theft syndicate operating?

    • HappyXD on 22/12/2017 - 23:45

      You make fair points though. You thinking HN doing something dodge?
      And the person I saw was indeed not me. Although the footage could've been from any time.

      • BertieBrown on 23/12/2017 - 00:11
        +9

        I’m not trying to be a pain, I just find the whole story very hard to believe.

        Ordinarily I would think that when someone goes through the lengths of making fake ID’s and such they’re not collecting online orders, they’d been trying to get cash/lines of credit in your name or credit cards etc etc.

        Like I said before, in my mind it doesn’t track. If anything, I’d say (if this is all true) and you don’t recognise the person then it’s someone related to someone who knows you directly and has access to your files/devices. That’d be my guess.

        I’m no expert of course, but seriously who makes a fake drivers license sophisticated enough to easily fool people who see them regularly and then steals a switch?

        Also, I’d doubt it’s HN; I’d imagine that nobody in a swindle actively sends their targets to the police, they’d just keep trying to play them along for as long as possible.

      • bchliu on 27/12/2017 - 14:32
        +1

        Has HN shown you the CCTV footage? As I wrote above, there should be CCTV up against every cashier and should be able to roll the recording to show the actual transaction and the fraudster themselves? As I said before, just make sure your personal ID is not compromised.. That is more important than the transaction itself for now. Between you, HN, Bank and even ACCC, can work something out to compensate you.

  • thetrain on 23/12/2017 - 00:06

    Get your state Fair Trading involved as they refuse to supply you with the item you paid for.

  • drewbytes on 23/12/2017 - 07:51
    +6

    How would someone possibly know you had an item to collect at the store? How would they get a copy of your ID? What are the chances of them looking like your photo ID? (unless it was forged). Why would someone go to all this trouble to steal an item worth $370? Somethings not right… Going to the police won't get you your item or money back, but may result in someone being charged with fraud. Contact your bank and do a charge back as others have said. The store will be required to provide all docs to the bank to prove the transaction - if they don't satisfy the bank you'll get your money back.

    • RJK on 25/12/2017 - 12:05

      As someone said, people have been asked in the past "are you here to pick up the item for SoandSo?"

      • Levathian on 25/12/2017 - 20:53
        +1

        Anyone who asks that on a high profile item is dumb as (profanity).

    • YousufEDGE on 29/12/2017 - 03:07

      My exact thought.

  • [Deactivated] on 23/12/2017 - 15:30
    +7

    Harvey Norman are the scum of the earth in retail ,
    their employees are the ones perpetuating the fraud ,
    and you're games console will be on gumtree or eBay.
    Go to the police and have them call the franchisee , so obviously theft.

    Otherwise picket the building with a large sign calling them Theives on boxing day.

    Also

    Thanks for the warning , don't forget to post on Whirlpool and all the Review sites online like Google ect.

  • eggles01 on 23/12/2017 - 17:06
    +1

    although I have not read all comments,there is one vital item that has not been commented on,there are quite a few of you state that it is not a police matter,of cause it is a police matter as there is someone out there using form/s of identity that does not belong to them,it is common theft,the store cannot investigate false identity crimes,the three ways I would approach the problem,1:go to the police and make a statement,2:contact the stores head office and make a complaint to them,3:get a statement from the store to show it was actually sent including the date and time it was sent,not going to the police you are aiding the person to do it to others and who else would this person use your identity to purchases etc and maybe the police will eventually end up at your front door and how would you feel with different debt collectors showing up demanding money connected to the item purchased by that person using your identity,

  • [Deactivated] on 24/12/2017 - 10:42
    +11

    From the info above, I imagine it's theft by staff. Does the CCTV footage clearly show someone using your name and taking your parcel?

    It's far easier to imagine that your item was sitting around unsorted for a while, a few staff asked why was the item there, no one knew and the item became unaccounted for. Someone realised that and walked out with it only for the store to realise they are a Nintendo short for an unfulfilled order and recalled a Nintendo floating around.

    The staff member who took the Nintendo then tried to conceal the opportunistic crime by claiming it was fulfilled as planned and has been collected. All loose ends within that process is now sorted. All that's missing is proof of collection.

    Enter the CCTV footage of a person possibly fitting the name on the order.

    • Blitzfx on 24/12/2017 - 12:28

      I'm trying to figure out how on earth someone knew OP had an order ready for pickup at this store AND had their ID ready on hand.
      It's either your explanation or ID theft, both of which OP needs to go to the police anyway.

      • [Deactivated] on 24/12/2017 - 13:26

        ID theft - OP is the victim and should be the one to engage police.

        Store theft - HN is the victim and should be the one to engage police.

        • Blitzfx on 24/12/2017 - 20:46
          +1

          But if HN refuse to compensate OP and not conduct an internal investigation, shouldn't OP go to the police anyway?

          Or are we assuming that HN know there is store theft? In which case they should immediately compensate OP, which they apparently aren't doing.

        • [Deactivated] on 24/12/2017 - 22:07
          -2

          @Blitzfx:
          If the store knows the theft is internal and refuses to provide OP with a refund or fulfil the order, then the store is essentially taking money and not providing promised goods. That's just a scam. Police do not get involved for that.

  • Sifter on 24/12/2017 - 10:50
    +22

    Grow a pair and handle 2 minutes of confrontation in the store talking to the manager. If you can't do that do a charge back and stop whinging. You need to stick up for yourself

    • banzini on 24/12/2017 - 15:11
      +2

      yup +1

      hold them accountable and DO NOT let them deflect the situation as your responsibility.

      If you can get to the point where you enjoy taking on these situations you will come out on top more often than not.

      • HappyXD on 24/12/2017 - 19:18
        +1

        I understand I need to confront them but HN just say that since they went through the correct procedures to confirm ID (which they havnt supplied evidence of), I have to go to police myself which I feel like is wrong because I doubt HN didn't do anything wrong.

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