Will I Make My Kettle Burn with This Modification?

Ltwinwong on 14/08/2017 - 02:42
Last edited 14/08/2017 - 09:39 by 1 other user

I bought a Delonghi Kettle from German and now use it in Australia, it generates max power of 3000W, the plug is 13A. it burnt the plastic after I plugged it into normal 10A domestic socket. I am trying to find a solution to save this Kettle.

I did some research and the way to fix is to replace the plug with a 15A one, and also install on the wall a new 15A socket(But this is way too much work).

My question is that what if I replace it with a 10A plug and plug it in 10A domestic socket.

  1. Will the kettle still work (I don't mind if it generate less power as 2400W, it may just take another minutes to boil the water)?

  2. or my concept is totally wrong and it will burn out my kettle or plug?

I can't find any answer on the internet, so hoping any genius here to help. Thank you.

Electrical & Electronics

Comments

  • trustnoone on 14/08/2017 - 02:57
    +25

    I could be very wrong, hopefully someone here can correct me! But pretty sure when it says its 13A it means its pulling 13Amps and at 220 to 240 volts (13x220=2860w to 13x240=3120w), plugging it into a 10A socket means your trying to pull 13 amps through a socket rated for 10amps (essentially pulling 3000w in a cable rated for 10x240=2400w) it can't deal with the extra heat generated and burns the plastic.

    You either need to find a socket (with wall cables) rated for 15 amps (usually found for hot water systems or airconditioners) or get an electrician to make one. I don't think you can get the kettle to work at 10 amps as that would mean changing the internal circuit of the kettle?

    I could be very wrong though so I wouldn't plug it into anything (even sockets made for water heaters or airconditioners) besides a german outlet if it was me.

    • elusive on 14/08/2017 - 03:17
      +7

      I think you are correct.

      From a strict standards/regulations view, modifying the appliance to let you connect a >10A load to a 10A socket might exceed the ratings of the cables inside your walls. If you're lucky, it'll trip your breakers/fuses. If you're unlucky, it'll start a fire. Inside your walls. That usually ends up with the house burnt down.*

      The amount of current pulled by a kettle depends on the physical heating element - generally they use a simple resistive element. It's not something you can easily modify.

      To OP: you really have two options here:

      • Get an electrician to run a proper 15A cable, including an appropriate breaker, from the panel. Do not install a 15A socket on a 10A cable. Judging by the question asked, I assume you do not have the required knowledge to safely do this yourself (keeping in mind it's also illegal to do so in Australia unless you're a licensed electrician).

      or

      • Go buy a cheap kettle from Kmart, Target, Coles, whatever. It's less than $20, and there's not much you can do to make a kettle fancy anyway… power goes in, heat comes out.

      * Ok, so, realistically - drawing 13A off your standard cables/sockets would likely only result in a bit of additional heating most of the time, since it won't be running that long. But it's better not to take that chance (you're betting a lot on a $20 kettle replacement).

      • Scrooge McDuck on 15/08/2017 - 00:20

        What's 30 % more heat between friends? Surely that's less than the safety factor…

      • swen83 on 15/08/2017 - 08:41

        You aren't going to damage the cables in the walls unless the circuit breakers are the wrong size. You probably arent going to trip any breakers with this one kettle either, as most power circuits are rated at >16A.

        You may end up causing damage to the GPO and plug. Putting >10A through a single GPO will create more heat than it can handle and cause failure. One of the big reasons there was a push to ban double adaptors many years ago. Far too many kitchen fires started from using them with toaster / kettles etc.

        • eug on 15/08/2017 - 10:46

          Putting >10A through a single GPO will create more heat than it can handle and cause failure.

          The internals of a 10A and 15A GPO could very well be identical for cost purposes, since the A/N pins on a 10A and 15A plugtop are exactly the same size.

          They are in this one.

    • ESEMCE on 14/08/2017 - 09:42
      +2

      It'll probably actually be drawing 14A assuming that the 13A rating is at 220V, European standard.

      V=IR means that if you increase the Voltage to 240V, at the same resistance, you'll push a higher current.
      ~3400W

      OP the 10A rating of a socket is not a restriction, it's the recommended limit.

    • [Deactivated] on 16/08/2017 - 00:43

      You can find 15A and more rating cable at auto stores or electronic stores. Example: jaycar

      • doctordv8 on 18/08/2017 - 09:28

        Can't say I have ever seen 3 core 10 or 15a Domestic or Commercial grade AS' 240v cable at any Auto store, nor would I expect or want to. Automotive wiring Standards and Building Standards are two very different Standards.
        Jaycar - maybe, but with distinctly separate Automotive and Building applications and are kept separate. Don't get confused by this - for the inexperienced budding tinkerers - & bush mechanics excepted, lol.

    • IMFrugl on 17/08/2017 - 08:24

      Calculation is not quite right. 13 A is the max the plug handles, but at 3000W/240V, Current= 3000/240=12.5A. The element resistance is 240/12.5=19.2 ohms.

      Used in Australia, a 19.2 ohm element will draw 230/19.2= 12A. This is too high for the standard 10A plugs, so yes, it will melt over time. It is also a potential fire hazard. It will draw 230x12=2760W. Our mains voltage has a +10, -6% tolerance, so at worst case, 252V maximum the current is 13.1A at 3307W - way exceeding the 10A plug rating - real fire risk.

      It will need to have an independent 15A plug and a 15A wall socket (think A/C, bathroom heaters, electric stove points).

      Edit - also to clarify, using a 10A plug does not mean it will limit the current to 10A, the appliance will still try to draw the full power, but the plug and socket becomes hot as it's own contact resistance and terminals starts acting like a mini heater.

      • eug on 17/08/2017 - 10:57

        Used in Australia, a 19.2 ohm element will draw 230/19.2= 12A. This is too high for the standard 10A plugs, so yes, it will melt over time.

        Do note than the active and neutral pins on a 15A plug are identical to the pins on a 10A plug, so the current-carrying capacity are identical. It has been suggested that the earth pin is larger mainly to avoid people plugging in a 15A device into the wrong circuit which would cause nuisance tripping.

        • doctordv8 on 18/08/2017 - 09:32

          The larger Earth Pin difference is not to avoid nuisance tripping, it is to prevent overloading. Tripping is only the result where such devices are fitted, and were not around as standard many years ago, when the larger pin was created.

        • eug on 18/08/2017 - 10:13

          @doctordv8:

          The larger Earth Pin difference is not to avoid nuisance tripping, it is to prevent overloading.

          OK I should probably correct my last post. I was referring to nuisance tripping in the sense of e.g. someone plugging in a 15A device plus a kettle into a domestic circuit.

          In any case that wasn't the main point, which was replying to IMFrugl's post saying that 12A will melt a 10A plug. That is not true - a 15A plug uses the same pins as a 10A plug so it will have the same current-carrying capacity.

    • mubd1234 on 17/08/2017 - 08:47
      +2

      I think OP is using a travel adaptor and that's what they're describing as 'melting'. Many of them (usually the cheap Chinese ones you find in $2 shops or on eBay) can barely handle 1000 watts, let alone 3000.

      13 amps is an overload, but probably is OK to use - after all, the wiring behind the wall is likely able to handle at least two 10 amp appliances from a single wall outlet (with two plug sockets). 10 and 15 amp sockets are usually identical other than the ground pin, which is slightly larger in the 15 amp socket.

      But for insurance and peace of mind purposes, probably best to either upgrade the wiring or buy a new kettle.

  • D C on 14/08/2017 - 04:26

    Buy a new kettle.

    The kettle is always going to try and draw 13A, you can't get around that.

    Putting in a 15A socket just for the kettle is a bit silly, as you say. Never mind you need to run new cabling, it's usually rated for 20A but derated because it's in the walls to 15A or so.

    Could be worse, you could have moved to the USA. With their 120v stuff your kettle would be drawing 25 amps (out of their 10A sockets), and probably instantly trip the breakers. There's a reason Americans don't have kettles in the their kitchens.

    In electrical stuff high amps is bad because it causes heat in the wiring, so our 240V 10A kettles are safer than if the Americans tried to match it by using 120V 20A kettles (they'd need heavier wiring all round).

    • fantombloo on 14/08/2017 - 08:32
      +7

      With their 120v stuff your kettle would be drawing 25 amps 

      Unfortunately false. Since it's a simple resistive element the same kettle would draw half the current and quarter of the power, about 750 watts . Power = voltage squared divided by resistance. In this case resistance remains the same.

      • D C on 14/08/2017 - 15:04
        +2

        Yeah you're right, Mr Ohm's laws still applies even in the land of freedom. I'll claim an early morning brain fade.

        Still, a 3000 watt load on an American socket would be an interesting sight.

      • [Deactivated] on 15/08/2017 - 23:05

        Oops, dumb comment here. Please ignore

    • ESEMCE on 14/08/2017 - 09:39
      +1

      thevova is correct, even if confusingly so..
      V=IR
      If you halve the voltage, (240->120V) then at the same resistance, you'll halve the Current flow.

    • Diji1 on 14/08/2017 - 09:50
      -1

      There's a reason Americans don't have kettles in the their kitchens.

      Nice invented fact.

      • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 14:08

        That reason is drive-thru Starbucks.

        • Scrooge McDuck on 15/08/2017 - 00:14

          Which is also the reason for the prevalence of diabetes.

        • Unrvl on 16/08/2017 - 09:41

          well when your starbucks coffees are $1 each over there.. yeah its no wonder people dont make their own coffees.

        • fantombloo on 17/08/2017 - 07:30

          @xEnt:

          starbucks coffees are $1 each over there..

          Another invented fact

      • D C on 14/08/2017 - 15:09
        +6

        Nice invented fact.

        Nice fact - yes, invented - no.

        Americans really don't use electric kettles.

        They mostly use stove-top ones, like your great-grandma used.

        • elgrande on 15/08/2017 - 12:22
          +1

          I must admit I did read a news article about this a few months back..

        • veej on 16/08/2017 - 16:53

          I heard they mainly use a microwave, pot on the stove etc to boil water. Kettles aren't really a thing in the US and a lot of people have coffee machines.

        • jlogic on 16/08/2017 - 23:50

          http://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2017/03/10/americans-dont…

          LOL that is something new I learnt today.

        • retiredfeline on 17/08/2017 - 00:35

          That probably explains why they have horrible tea bags containing tea blended to work with tepid temperatures.

      • Zodiacmindwarp on 15/08/2017 - 15:24

        It's 99.9% fact

    • retiredfeline on 14/08/2017 - 14:57

      Others have replied. In your defense you may be thinking of smart loads like autosensing power supplies where the converter has to draw twice the current to supply the same power.

      • D C on 14/08/2017 - 15:12

        Nah. I was just being dim, much like how @OP's kettle would perform if used in the States.

        Most days I know how resistive loads work.

    • Plug on 15/08/2017 - 17:09
      +1

      D C on 14/08/2017 at 04:56 said "There's a reason Americans don't have kettles in the their kitchens". This is nothing to do with tripping breakers or starting fires. It's because they'd take longer to boil due to inadequate power supply.

  • whooah1979 on 14/08/2017 - 06:43
    +19

    I bought a Delonghi Kettle from German and now use it in Australia, it generates max power of 3000W, the plug is 13A.

    some kettle you got here. ours generates no power.

    • retiredfeline on 14/08/2017 - 08:27
      +2

      OP should connect his power generating kettle to a power drawing kettle. No house wiring modification required, and perpetual hot water. :) :) :)

      • Scrooge McDuck on 15/08/2017 - 00:28
        +2

        It's one of those fancy German steam turbine/boiler combo units.

  • Euphemistic on 14/08/2017 - 06:51

    New kettle. By the time you stump up for a 15A wall socket you probably could have bought 3 or 4.

    Do not under any circumstance put a 10a plug on that kettle - recipe for fire. You can't get 3000w out of a standard socket without overloading it, max is 2400w.

    Perhaps an alternative would be to replace the element in the kettle with a 2400w version, but again cost vs new kettle will probably end up with a new kettle.

    • Diji1 on 14/08/2017 - 09:52
      -2

      Yeah but some (most? all?) modern houses use 15A circuits in any case.

      • Euphemistic on 14/08/2017 - 10:30
        +1

        Nope. Houses are wired for 10A power points. The total for the circuit will be enough for several points to run at once, but not though one point.

        15A power point circuits are usually only installed for garages where high were tools are required, or to be able to plug a caravan in at home. There would typically only be one point on that circuit, not half a dozen like normal 10a points.

        • D C on 14/08/2017 - 15:18

          He's probably thinking of the breakers (16A, or the old 15A fuses). Or heard somewhere the house wiring is rated for 15A (de-rated from 20A or whatever was used).

  • onetrickpony on 14/08/2017 - 07:03
    +5

    Kettle burn, power point burn, house burn …. expensive winter heating.

    • BensonP on 14/08/2017 - 07:13
      +3

      Actually the kettle would be the last thing to burn, as it's actually rated for 3000W.

      So the PowerPoint would go first, followed by the wiring/house. Eventually the fire would engulf everything ;)

    • Euphemistic on 14/08/2017 - 07:14

      Actually the kettle is unlikely to burn as it is rated for the power it is going to draw. Although once the house is on fire the kettle probably won't survive.

      • CookieJacker31 on 14/08/2017 - 21:19
        +7

        But the water would be boiled.

        • Euphemistic on 14/08/2017 - 21:30

          And unfortunately mixed with fire retardants added from a big red truck outside.

        • Scrooge McDuck on 15/08/2017 - 00:32
          +5

          @Euphemistic:

          We prefer fire learning difficulties. 🙂

        • Euphemistic on 15/08/2017 - 06:54
          +4

          @Scrooge McDuck: sorry, my bad. Mixed with fire learnant diificultants.

  • BensonP on 14/08/2017 - 07:12
    +19

    Sparky here.

    Everyone is 100% correct.

    Go buy a new kettle, my friend. :)

    • nocure on 14/08/2017 - 08:56

      Would an RCD trip first?

      • BensonP on 14/08/2017 - 09:26
        +5

        Only if the current drawn on the active doesn't equal the current on the neutral.

        In other words, the active would have to make contact with the earth to trip the RCD.

        Edit: Not necessarily earth, but a path other than the neutral. (99% of the time it's earth.)

      • Brouw3r on 15/08/2017 - 11:01

        You're confusing an RCD (safety switch) with a fuse (circuit breaker). Fuses trip when the current is too high (13A may be too low to trip), RCDs trip when the active is different to neutral, ie, it's going somewhere else (like through you!).

  • manshrew on 14/08/2017 - 08:41
    +16

    Not a sparky here.

    Still go buy a new kettle.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 15/08/2017 - 00:38
      +3

      Scrooge here.

      Sell me your house for a discount and move back to Germany to use your kettle there.

  • pantsparty on 14/08/2017 - 08:49
    +1

    For the risk why bother, just buy a new kettle - they are much cheaper than repairing fire damage

  • fruit on 14/08/2017 - 08:54

    Nothing can possibly go wrong

  • theHMASfriendship on 14/08/2017 - 09:10
    +5

    Someone who once met a guy who I think was a sparky here.

    Go kettle a new buy.

  • Ryanek on 14/08/2017 - 10:32
    +7

    I have a feeling it's posts like these that explain the hike in my insurance premiums.

    • retiredfeline on 14/08/2017 - 14:58

      Or rather the ones who burnt down the house before thinking of posting.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 15/08/2017 - 00:34

        Might want to update your agreed value OP.

  • tsunamisurfer on 14/08/2017 - 12:50
    +8

    On the news tonight : Ozbargainer's house is engulfed in flames after putting in a 10A plug into a 15A device after knowing that a 13A plug burned.

    The occupant lost $20k worth of Eneloops and Xiaomi headphones and pens.

    • bdl on 14/08/2017 - 19:22
      +1

      …complained of price hike before coupons were applied.

    • dufflover on 15/08/2017 - 15:30
      +1

      … and originally claimed bikies targeted the house

  • AlienC on 14/08/2017 - 13:47

    Where do you live so we can track this story when it goes on the news.. just a suburb is ok.

  • Word on 14/08/2017 - 15:25
    -2

    jaycar.

  • bdl on 14/08/2017 - 19:21

    Damn, are German GPOs >10A?

    • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 20:16

      16A apparently

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE…

      • bdl on 14/08/2017 - 21:23

        Damn.

        • D C on 15/08/2017 - 05:08
          +2

          You missed a perfectly good "hot damn!" comment.

          I do like the child-friendly Danish sockets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:107-2-D1_-Danish_electrical_plugs-_Studio_2011.jpg, with the "please no fork in me" and the "yes fork will make me happy" versions.

        • bdl on 15/08/2017 - 08:50
          +2

          @D C: HOT DAMN!

          IN GERMANY WE BOIL WATER AT 16A. ACHTUNG!

        • D C on 15/08/2017 - 08:54
          +2

          @bdl: That's the spirit.

          Relish that 3800 watts of pure power.

          Crush those puny Australians with their measly 2400W, and pulverise those wimpy Americans with their pathetic 1800W outlets.

  • nrg2010 on 14/08/2017 - 20:27

    Sounds like the original socket was dodgy as well, shouldn't melt in such a short time.
    I'd get a new kettle. Probably cheaper than a new 15A GPO and plug,
    Also have you checked to see if your circuit breakers/RCDs are working correctly? Might save your wiring…

  • doctordv8 on 14/08/2017 - 21:48
    +1

    …..and when your house burns down……? Do not stuff around with this. That fact you are asking such questions here shows your seriously lacking in the knowledge & skills department to be considering what you are actually considering.

    Buy a new kettle, and give this one to a workshop that has standard 15A GPOs.

  • PVA on 14/08/2017 - 21:51

    Buy a new kettle, delonghi are everywhere so you'll be able to track one down.

    It's not just a 15amp plug and wallplate to change but the cabling and cct break in the power board.

  • outlander on 14/08/2017 - 21:57

    The trick you're talking about is only useful for transient loads. Kettles are a static load. They boil at full draw for up to 5 minutes.

    What will happen if you try this is the increased load will cause the metal pins to over heat, and gradually they will melt the plastic between them until there is no more plastic, and it will short together. I recommend you either change both the plug and the socket (still not totally kosher) or you get a new kettle

  • eug on 14/08/2017 - 23:02
    +2

    I would buy a new kettle.

    However, strictly speaking, I think putting a 10A plugtop on it will not burn the house down. The active and neutral pins on a 10A and 15A plugtop and socket are the same size - it's only the earth pin that's larger.

    If your wall socket is a double GPO, you can plug two normal 10A kettles in and not burn down the house - the wires behind the wall can take 20A fine. If you have anything else on the circuit, your breaker will trip though, as domestic circuits usually have a 20A breaker. So a 13A kettle won't overheat anything - just don't plug anything else into the second socket.

    15A plugtops can clamp larger diameter wires, usually up to 1.5mm2. 10A is 0.75mm2. That may or may not be a problem, depending on the wires in your kettle power cord.

    But wait, I hear - the pins inside 15A sockets might be thicker!
    Someone else wondered the same thing so he took them apart and measured the dimensions of the contacts. They were the same. It makes sense from a cost efficiency point of view - running one production line to produce one common part that can be used for both sockets makes more financial sense.

    I'm not recommending that you should wire up your kettle with a 10A plug, I'm just saying I don't think it's as catastrophic as people make it out to be, if at all.

    There's more talk about it on whirlpool.

    • Wallyt99 on 14/08/2017 - 23:20

      Assuming its only the ground thats different why not go ahead ? I mean the ground only serves to save your life in the event of say a short circuit… And its not like we are talking about an electrical appliance that contains a highly electrically conductive and fluid material…. Whats the worst that could happen ?

      • eug on 14/08/2017 - 23:27

        The larger earth pin on a 15A plugtop does not make it safer than a 10A plugtop. It also provides no protection against short circuits (that's what the circuit breakers do), only earth leakage.

        • Wallyt99 on 15/08/2017 - 09:13

          Im not a sparky… But Im pretty sure you are wrong there. It's exactly what the earth pin does - in the event that the item is shorted to the metal chassis - the earth pin provides an alternate discharge path for the electricity other than the human body.

          The breaker may or may not work fast enough to save your life. If you cop the full force (no earth) you are likely screwed.

          Why do you think that people electrocute themselves when doing DIY ???? There are breakers…. No connected earth pin though….

        • retiredfeline on 15/08/2017 - 10:04
          +1

          @Wallyt99: Short circuit doesn't mean the active is connected to the chassis. It means that the active gets connected to neutral by another path, e.g. active and neutral wires touching. In such a case there is no current through earth. That's where a fuse or overload protection saves the day.

        • eug on 15/08/2017 - 10:38
          +1

          @Wallyt99:

          in the event that the item is shorted to the metal chassis - the earth pin provides an alternate discharge path for the electricity other than the human body.

          Greenpossum has addressed that. The point is, the marginally larger earth pin on a 15A plugtop provides no more protection than the earth pin on a 10A plugtop, which was what Wallyt99 was exclaiming about. Both will trip the RCD in the event of leakage.

    • BensonP on 15/08/2017 - 06:06

      15A plugtops can clamp larger diameter wires, usually up to 1.5mm2. 10A is 0.75mm2. That may or may not be a problem, depending on the wires in your kettle power cord.

      10 amp socket outlets should be wired in 2.5mm and 4mm for 15 amp.

      • ty2050 on 15/08/2017 - 07:41

        Not Upto, minimum is 1.5mm2. 10A can be wired in lower and 4 mm2 is to much for a single 15a outlet.

        • BensonP on 15/08/2017 - 07:55

          The 15 amp can technically be wired in 2.5mm cable, but it has to be on a 16 amp circuit breaker. Sometimes a 15 amp load can pull a touch more, and this can cause nuisance tripping of circuit breakers.

          As for other powerpoints, they absolutely cannot be on 1.5mm2!

          I have a copy of the AS3000 wiring rules in front of me. The minimum is 2.5mm with a 13 amp breaker. (16 amp breaker is also permitted.)

        • ty2050 on 15/08/2017 - 08:08

          @BensonP:

          2.5mm2 can be wired in a 20A breaker For a 15A outlet. I wasn't talking about the subcuit only the extension lead out of the appliance can be
          1.5mm2 so settle down.

      • eug on 15/08/2017 - 10:22

        I was talking about the plugtop, not outlet.

  • ty2050 on 15/08/2017 - 07:29
    +1

    Sparky here the cable in your house is protected by the circuit breaker the cable will not over heat as long as the circuit breaker is working.
    RCD should not trip unless there is a fault. The plug on the kettle is rated for 15A probably but the outlet is certainly not. DO NOT use the outlet. Upgrade the outlet and plug, or new kettle simple.

  • sghetti on 15/08/2017 - 10:12
    +2

    Pro ozbargain tip. Save 99.95% on a new house and buy a new kettle.

    • eug on 15/08/2017 - 10:48

      A new house might be $500,000. 0.05% of that is $25,000. What kind of solid gold kettle are you suggesting the OP buy? :)

      • kuepper on 15/08/2017 - 14:57

        May want to check your calculations sir … try $250.

        • eug on 15/08/2017 - 15:01

          Sorry sir, you're right! I shouldn't mathemagics on the fly. That's still a pretty expensive kettle though!

        • sghetti on 11/09/2017 - 12:23

          @eug: I have expensive tastes

  • Dr Techno on 15/08/2017 - 10:34
    +1

    just buy a new kettle…. save the headache

  • jerjergege on 15/08/2017 - 11:15
    +3

    Off topic fun fact!

    In the UK
    There is a time called TV Pickup, during the addbreak of popular TV shows, people would go make tea, and cause a massive surge in power draw, sometimes causing blackouts which led power companies having to increase the supply at certain times.

    The largest power draw was:

    2800MW 4 July 1990 - England v West Germany FIFA World Cup semi-final penalty shootout

    not sure if it caused a power outage or not.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

  • elgrande on 15/08/2017 - 12:23
    +1

    Does boiling water from the german kettle taste nicer than your $15 kmart spectacular?

    • smux on 24/08/2017 - 11:12

      It would be a lot more satisfying knowing that you blasted that water with extreme amounts of power, and the time saved not waiting for water to boil is priceless of course

  • Zodiacmindwarp on 15/08/2017 - 15:20

    I deal with this at work quite often. Your kettle does not have a "Compliance With Australian Standards" number. Therefore is not suitable for use in Australia.

    • eug on 15/08/2017 - 15:23
      +2

      Like the millions of tourists who visit Australia with their non-AS-compliant phone and laptop chargers? :)

    • smux on 24/08/2017 - 11:13

      But it's German engineered, that had to count for something 😉

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