Is there a Problem with OZbargainers advertising WOW Egift cards?
I just had a notification from a supplier that they can no longer list them in the Classifieds.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
Don't tell me that the 'Fun Police' have taken over OZB !!
Is There a Problem with OzBargainers Selling WOW eGift Cards?
Peck on 05/05/2017 - 19:26
Comments
For now I would rather not say, but I never had any problems with them. And so I thought that it must have been a 'blanket' ban!
OZB class it as a form of classified selling, as they are earning extra points on frequent flyers, other rewards points ..
Classifieds are strictly for personal use between members only. If you are a business and you have a good bargain to promote, please post them as deals.
No referral solicitation or the offering of personal services.Sorry but the classifieds is not designed to resell gift cards as a side business or similar, it's not designed for that. OzBargain classifieds is for users to sell personal items they no longer want. Our classifieds aren't attempting to replicate Gumtree or eBay, they aren't regulated in any sense, they are purely designed for users to sell unwanted personal items at their own risk. If users want to resell gift cards on a large scale it should be done as a business and posted as a deal, we can't cater towards 'side businesses' or similar.
These were ALWAYS our guidelines, however users were rarely reporting these listings so they were going unnoticed. As with most things on here (e.g. referrals, reps posting), people push things to the limit of what is acceptable to which we started having classifieds advertising mass amounts of goods for sale and some offering a form of business consultancy.
Ok. got it, and I can't argue with that. Now I understand why it fell outside of the guidelines. Thanks Neil, I don't mean to antagonize anyone! :)
While I agree that these classifieds were not satisfying with the clause you mentioned above, at the same time I strongly believe that this benefited many OZBargainers including me saving lots of money buying these cards from some of these trusted members.
In my opinion we should have some or the other means/ways to get these offers at the same time trust built through this forum. After all getting deals is the core motivation for being associated and lets not have this deal missed out.
Open for suggestions from other fellow bargain hunters.
"post them as deals"
If I got it correctly, members are offering discount to gain points in exchange. I am not sure how is that qualified as business to be posted as a deal.
@ash79: I think that it is the fact that people are doing it on an ongoing basis, means that it is considered as an ongoing business and not just members selling something that they have that is excess to their needs. I know that it is a fine line. But Neil,the moderator, has stated that they can post them as a deal instead of using the classifieds.
@Peck: That's exactly is my point. It is neither a business nor a classified selling personal goods. They are not authorized card sellers and I am not sure if someone can claim profit, maintain account or file taxes out of these transactions.
In true sense some of the members obsessed with collecting points transferring benefits to other members to satisfy their obsession. Does it satisfy as a deal in OZBargain without having any established business?
What I am trying to highlight is to have a new classification where such kind of discounts fits and members like me don't miss the savings out of it.
I used to advertise these woolies GC here on ozb at 7.5% off.
@Neil i want to confirm I will be able to post our gift card sales then in the "deals" section?
To be blunt - it is actually the wrong section because what we are doing is not a business. We are actually making a dollar loss on each transaction. It is recurring, yes, but not a business. It is more of a personal nature or a "hobby"
In fact, you would have a hard time registering this "business" with the ABR - because it would likely not qualify.
In light of all that, do seriously ask the mods to reconsider, or make a carve out for this, because, as you can see, many people in your community genuinely benefit - creating a "win-win".
You have to set yourself up as a business (ABN, website, details about you/company etc) and post as a deal inline with other businesses. The classifieds were only made so people can sell excess stuff and not for side businesses accruing multiple sales. See original comment.
@Neil assume for a second that you cannot get an ABN for this sort of activity, because it simply does not qualify as a "business" from an ATO perspective it is by definition a "hobby". So what happens? You end up in this purgatory where you can't post in the "classifieds" and you can't post in the "deals".
I am obviously biased because I would like to continue to post.
But the site owners / mods should listen to their membership base for once and provide a "carve out" for this sort of activity, in the interest of the greater good (or as economists like to say "pareto efficiency").
We understand your point of view however we don't want business activity in the classifieds. Anything that is not personal sales is business activity. As general advice, getting an ABN (sole trader) + a website is a very small requirement for people selling $1000s in gift cards. We do listen to feedback which is why we made the classifieds in the first place (as well as comp section + lots of other things) however we need to draw the line at personal sales. As mentioned before, it went from people selling bulk gift cards to business consultancy to non-gift card businesses selling bulk lots of stuff.
The easiest solution that would be in the interest of users would be for OzBargain to sign up to one of these gift card providers and skip the middle man altogether (like what Cashrewards/Pricepal do with 5% off Woolworths cards). We will be looking into this as well so if anyone knows more about this please let us know.
I think you should consider working with 9race given that he can beat the 5% that others can offer or develop something similar.
9race has already told us his method. i.e. getting FF points for gift cards. Others probably could do the same. Maybe you can set up a FF/gift card exchange program of sorts.EDIT - should clarify that i have not purchased from him
correct me if im wrong, but 9race is possibly selling them for 7.5% off (with a loss of 2.5%) to get FF points possibly using an AMEX platinum, to get 3 X points
For example, if someone bought from him a $500 gift card, It would cost him $475, but would sell for $462.5 and his loss would be $12.50. On the other hand he would be getting 1425 QFF points which is valued at 1c per point or $14.25 so in reality he would be profiting $1.75 in terms of points value. But if he had used the points to book a flight in peak season, the value of the points would be more
@easternculture:
i'm sure theres no doubt he gets a good kick back but others can do the same aswell. You could even sign up for a CC with FF frequent flyer points and offer to do the same.
The whole point is both parties win from what i see.
If others want to do it and offer a better rate it would be even better!Hello yes you are correct in that I sell them for 7.5% off (with a loss of 2.5%).
There is actually no secret sauce for this transaction. What I lose in $$$, I make up in FF points earned.
The point (pardon the pun :) ) is though, we are doing this as a private transaction - in that we help the customer buy the GC at a bigger discount - and we get to charge it to our credit card. Customer wins, and I win. And everyone is happy. We are not affiliated officially with Woolies, cash rewards or entertainment book in any way.
On whether this qualifies as a business - there are several tests at the ABR website. One of which is "there is an intention to make a profit from the activity as demonstrated by a business plan (unlike with a hobby)". The qn is we are making a $ loss on each transaction (which is made up by the points gained - but points have no $ value). So, with that in mind, this activity is actually more akin to a hobby - where we are buying points (and accumulating them) for our own private use.
The easiest solution that would be in the interest of users would be for OzBargain to sign up to one of these gift card providers and skip the middle man altogether (like what Cashrewards/Pricepal do with 5% off Woolworths cards). We will be looking into this as well so if anyone knows more about this please let us know.
Has there been any movement on this? I'd love to support the site but would want an adequate discount.
Actually the normal market rate is 7.5% off with those with Reward Gateway programs getting a base of 5.5% off plus 2% off (sellers get 3 * points valued at 2.61% per $ American Express Platinum Edge ($195 annual fee) )
My seller used to do 8% but has now dropped back to 7.5% for new buyers and 7.75% for regular buyers.
@Neil - respectfully I think that is where the logic and reasoning fails. An activity does not qualify as a business simply because it fails to meet some arbitrary standard of "personal". We can't get an bonafide ABN where we lose money on each trade.
On cutting the middle man: we won't have a problem with ozb being like cashrewards etc in offering Woolies cards at 5% (and it is a good idea). But that is not the point. And that is where I think the disconnect is in the owners/mods thinking GC sellers run a "business".
I offer these Woolies GC to everyone at 7.5% off (at a loss to me) - I doubt ozb can compete with that - and that is where my value-add is.
Anyway, I think i have stated the case clearly - but understand you all have the right to run your site however you want to.
Best wishes.
I offer these Woolies GC to everyone at 7.5% off (at a loss to me)
Are you getting QFF or other rewards points with your gift card selling activities?
This itself is more profitable in terms of flights in peak season or upgrades to business class etc
Yes it is for the points - hence willing to cop the loss for the points.
Some people don't value the points and would rather buy these cards at an greater discount than 5%. So it is a "win-win".
I assumed that all of the sellers were getting 3 amex points per $1 on Platinum Edge. And even then it would be only marginally worth it. If there is a more profitable card then I would love to hear about it.
Agree this is a grey area but I feel I am now missing out on the discount of 7.5% which is not available elsewhere (and I think the point is it is not available in commercial quantities).
The same applies to JetStar vouchers. These were offered at 10% off which I do not know where I can get.
I believe it would be from some sort of membership organisation such as presidential card, ambassador card etc but I do not know which one.
Can someone please advise how to get 10% off JetStar gift cards.Thank you.
I remember somebody selling Coles gift card at 5.5%-6% off too, could somebody please remind me who it was? (I did once but somebody did that for a long period of time).
I'd like to weigh in with my thoughts too.
Disclaimer: I was also a seller of the Woolies eGift Cards.
I think it is a real shame (for all parties) that this has been disallowed. I am not arguing that it does not breach the rules. I can totally see that it does, but rather I'm coming from the angle of, "what is the intention of this rule?"
In addition, the point of rules is usually to address issues such as:
- Too much admin work
- Unfair
- Illegal/Unethical
- A party loses out
As far as I can see, it should not require any additional admin work for any party, in any way except by simply increasing the count of Classified posts by 1 (multiplied by however many sellers of Woolies eGCs there may be).
It isn't anymore unfair to any party, and if anything should only create win-win scenarios (as pointed out above) where the seller benefits by effectively "purchasing" FF points, and the buyer saves by saving 2% they otherwise would not have saved. Buyers have the option of not purchasing from these sellers so that they can earn the points themselves, if they prefer.
It certainly is not illegal or unethical, especially when the intention is transparent. If you wanted to point out certain Classifieds being explicitly against the rules of their respective programs, it would be:
- Selling/Buying QFF, VFF, AMEX Points
- Selling/Buying Qantas Club Lounge passes
- Selling/Buying American Express Complimentary Flights
- Swapping Entertainment Book Vouchers
But why are these allowed here? Because it is recognised that allowing these creates win-win situations.
As per my disclaimer, I was a seller and of course, it could be argued that I may also have a biased view because I would have a personal preference to continue to sell these, which of course continues to be the case.
Finally, I was not advised of my Classified post being removed either. It simply disappeared one day. Not that mods are obliged to advise me (especially if it is deemed to actually break rules), but I just thought it would have been nice to have been advised especially seeing as I had been doing this since September 2016.
OK, let's just make this clear.
- Without specifically naming the sellers, we found that some of the sellers of gift cards were selling well into 6 digits of sale (e.g. at least $100K+ per year). This isn't just a few cards, this is a business.
- The argument that these sellers are making a loss is just untrue. Frequent flyer points and rewards can be valued (see Pointhacks at around 2c) so there is a profit benefit for the seller.
- Don't take this as official advice but in casual conversations with those familiar with tax issues, these actions constitute a business and not just a hobby especially when we are talking about $100K (at a minimum) of sales in a year.
- People were not just selling gift cards but also selling business consulting, bulk lots of items, among other things.
What's the point of the above? All of these entities are acting as businesses which should be posting as deals AND not in the classifieds as it is only for personal listings (e.g. I have a spare X to get rid off). By posting in the classifieds, they are also bypassing posting limits we have on stores. This is what was happening as we saw more of these posts sneak into the classifieds.
So again, get a free ABN, provide some contact details and a way for customers to purchase from you and post as a deal.
The argument that these sellers are making a loss is just untrue. Frequent flyer points and rewards can be valued (see Pointhacks(pointhacks.com.au) at around 2c) so there is a profit benefit for the seller.
The pointhacks valuing is just insane. The value of a rewards program comes from the rewards offered and its perceived value.
I value QANTAS points at 0.5c per point because the egift cards at Woolworths are the closest to cash equivalents that can be redeemed. This equates to a 0.5% cashback rate AFTER I spend $12000 (@1.5 pts per dollar) to obtain the necessary points to redeem one gift card. Thus to get 2% instant discount is obviously beneficial to myself. While I have my own egift supplier, this really does go against the spirit of helping members save money. But this is the mods decision..Upgrade paths for flights' redemption cost shouldn't be used as a cash equivalent because its like using RRP as how much an item is worth.
Flight upgrade paths are not as liquid as egift cards.
Very interesting to know people were selling gift cards to that amount!
Thanks Neil for that very clear explanation. I feel a bit guilty for raising the issue, but obviously others wanted clarity on the issue too, and so well done.
Thanks @Peck for bringing up this important topic. Whilst we don't agree with the moderators / site owner's reasoning, at the end of the day, it is their forum and their rules.
But at least it is good to bring up some transparency from all parties to get their views.
I'm not a seller nor a buyer…
But I do agree with the mod that the seller need to register a business to sell gift cards.
I always tempted to buy the discount GC from these sellers, but I don't trust someone I don't know and therefore I'd rather pay a bit more to buy from trusted resource (e.g. Cashreward).
If a GC seller setup a business which probably provide me a greater confidence to buy from them…
just my 2 cents.
Not a Seller. Not a Buyer.
How does this negatively affect OzBargain? What are you losing? How does this impact your day-to-day lives? Does someone else's success keep you up at night?
Fascists, indoctrinated into rigid-mindedness by statist-run education & media. Freedom-haters. Above all - SEETHINGLY JEALOUS of all those who are more successful than you.
RECAP
Step 1. Stop others from doing it, especially on a technicality.
("These were ALWAYS our guidelines, however users were rarely reporting these listings so they were going unnoticed.") USERS RARELY REPORTING - perhaps benefitting them?Step 2. Steal the idea & do it yourself.
("The easiest solution that would be in the interest of users would be for OzBargain to sign up to one of these gift card providers")Step 3. Claim it is appropriate for you to do it.
("We will be looking into this as well so if anyone knows more about this please let us know.")Step 4. Enforce by using your positions of power.
<Moderator status>Wow OzB. You people must be government employees, right?
OzB is the gift that keeps on giving. A new comedy routine every day!
I agree. It is all about fun, and not serious. OZb is not going to change anyone's lives, but chasing a deal is a happy distraction.
Too happy! Having exams today but I check ozb countless times today…
Just thought I would add my 2 cents.
I am also a seller and have respected the decision by the mods and stopped advertising gift cards in the classifieds despite not agreeing with it.
I think the decision is definitely not in the interest of Ozbargain members as the transactions benefitted both buyers and sellers, all members involved. Even if Ozbargain were to become a provider like entertainment book and cash rewards, that would have no additional benefit to members although it may generate extra revenue for Ozbargains which I am all for. Ozbargains may be able to forgo some of the profit and give members a larger discount than EB or CR. In such a situation members would still benefit from buying from one of the resellers as a greater discount can be had.
What we are doing is extracting the maximum surplus from the transaction by having those who benefit most from making the payment do it on behalf of others. This extra surplus is then shared between the 2 parties.
It is also not against the terms and conditions like selling points, which while I support as it benefits members, has potential negative impact for Ozbargain. Points use to be sold on Ebay but are no longer allowed, probably with the influence of Qantas and Virgin. The selling of gift cards is widespread and accepted.
There are a few buyers of points who take up all the supply from a large number of members, just as there are a few sellers of gift cards that meet the demands of a large number of buyers. The policy at the moment is that we are not allowed to make a post on the classifieds forum when we are willing to transact with many other members. I can understand the distinction and why the mods would not want it but there is a definite lost of benefit to members.
Thanks for the feedback.
Even if Ozbargain were to become a provider like entertainment book and cash rewards, that would have no additional benefit to members although it may generate extra revenue for Ozbargains which I am all for. Ozbargains may be able to forgo some of the profit and give members a larger discount than EB or CR.
It's actually the exact opposite which is why it may be a difficult route as it could be very costly. I believe corporations pay the gift card site to run this service for members especially for the high discount offers. Someones got to take the payments and stuff the envelopes I guess.
With the woolworths system, it's very much an automated process. The only time a person gets involved is when something goes wrong with an order (which happens occasionally). EB and CR are essentially just providing a link to the woolworths site, not too different to affiliate marketing. I can only guess at who is paying who for all of it but I've never had a problem with ordering large quantities of gift cards from woolworths at a discount. There may be some fixed cost to the organisation but the fact that tightass and cash rewards seem to promote the purchases of gift cards from through their website leads me to believe they get some benefit from it.
With other gift card programs I've had issues because they have a finite amount of gift cards and didn't want me ordering all of them.
I'll just reiterate again as I think the point has been lost.
Those gift card sellers or other businesses who were selling in the classifieds just need to register as a business (if they haven't already). Just get a free ABN, provide some contact details and a way for customers to purchase from you and post as a deal like other businesses do.
Hey @neil I just wanted to ask you, wouldn't it be against the T&Cs to resell those gift cards anyway? This mean that these guys wouldn't be able to post them as deals even if they have an ABN as they would be going against the products terms and conditions?
One other question, what happens with the guys that offer to share their corporate discount (like the Jetstar guy mentioned above), would it fall into the same category?
By the way, haven't bought, haven't sold, just asking these questions as I'm genuinely interested in where the line is drawn.
Thanks and congrats for all the great work you guys do here at OzBargain!!!
The onus is on the user to comply (or not comply) with any other company's T&Cs as well as tax & fiduciary issues arising from running the business.
We are focused on the Deal Posting Guidelines, Commenting Guidelines, Classified Guidelines as well as complying with legal issues including banned items & any legal issues with companies + terms of use.
Which supplier?