Not Another LED Downlight Question

Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 08:50
Last edited 24/04/2017 - 09:53

I have had some halogen MR16 lights for a while in my lounge room and I finally decided to replace them with LEDs and the halogens were going a bit dim at the end of their life. I bought some Phillips 6W LED and installed them. They all worked fine for about 3 days but one has blown already.

I've had LED down lights working fine in the kitchen for about 3 years.

So do you think one of the new bulbs blowing was the bulb itself or the fact that I just installed them in the halogen sockets without doing anything else?

Also, can I take the bulb back to Bunnings and tell them it died after 3 days? Will they replace it or do I need to contact Phillips? What's the policy on blown light bulbs generally after such a short amount of time? EDIT: Nevermind bunnings said they will replace it no worries.

Electrical & Electronics

Comments

mskeggs on 24/04/2017 - 09:29

The MR16 should be directly replaceable. Some LEDs don't support dimmer switches. If you install these and use the dimmer knob they can blow.
After just 3 days issues like temperature in an enclosed light fitting or other issues that can shorten the life of LEDs don't apply.
I think it is likely a defective bulb if the others are OK.
- Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 09:36
  
  Hmm okay thanks for the input. I know that people often talk about installing the LED transformers and things in the roof. Is that for other types of fittings?
  
  I was concerned that whilst they work, my setup was not optimal for bulb longevity and I might get short life out of these bulbs :/ or is it a case of they either work or they dont?
  
  P.S. I don't have dimmers installed.
  - mskeggs on 24/04/2017 - 09:46
    
    MR16 fittings are low voltage, so will already have the transformers installed in the roof.
    There are some cases of bulbs that won't work with switchmode transformers, but I believe the Philips lamps are not effected, as they have circuitry that simulates the load profile/resistance of a halogen.
    Maybe that is the thing you are thinking of?
    - Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 09:47
      
      Ah ok that's good to know then.
      
      Hoping just a dud bulb and bunnings can swap it over then.
    - cristtos on 24/04/2017 - 11:19
      
      Also note that the "transformers" for the incandescent are not very good for LEDs (should still work) because they are rather constant voltage
      while the LED power adaptors are more like constant current. The power adaptors for LEDs have also higher efficiency in converting the mains to the low voltage.
      my2c
John Kimble on 24/04/2017 - 09:47

I was wanting to do the same thing when one of my halogen lights blew recently; after some reading I thought it wasn't worth the effort because of the potential issues I read about. Lazy I know.

http://lightingmatters.com.au/lighting-guide-lighting-techni…

http://www.ledified.com.au/why-you-shouldnt-install-led-down…
- Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 09:52
  
  Also good info but slightly conflicting. Sounds like LEDified are trying to sell you something you may not need, which is fair enough, they are a LED installation company. As the other link states what Keggs stated above.
  
  12 Volt MR16 Lamp Compatibility
  If your existing lamps are MR16 type, then further considerations are necessary to achieve the halogen-to-LED conversion. MR16 halogen installations generally include transformers which convert 240V AC mains power to 12V AC.
  
  Fortunately, 12V MR16 LED downlight globes in the medium to high price range are supplied with electronics which convert the AC input to DC. These lights are labelled 12V AC/DC and will operate with certain halogen transformers such as iron core (magnetic ballast), and a small selection of electronic transformers.
  
  Any sparky ozbargainers?
  - John Kimble on 24/04/2017 - 09:55
    
    Yeah, I just have no idea if I have transformers in the ceiling and couldn't be bothered to check. Also didn't want to spend too much on the mid to high range LEDs.
    - Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 09:57
      
      Same, and an electrician call out to check all this stuff will be $$$!
    - John Kimble on 24/04/2017 - 09:58
      
      Yeah, I know!
      
      I live in an apartment block that was built in 1910 or something and the halogen lights do buzz quite loudly when on, so I'm not confident the wiring is up to code (maybe the previous owners fixed up just my unit?). In fact I know we are raising a special levy to rewire the whole block soon, so will try to get them to check then.
    - BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 10:21
      
      +4
      
      It's very simple and unobstrucive to check for transformers.
      
      Option 1
      Pull the globe out. If it says 12v on the under side, you have transformers.
      
      Option 2
      If the globe has GU10 prongs, it is 240 volt and no transformer.
      If the globe has MR16 prongs, it's 12 volt and has a transformer.
      
      Let me know if have more questions!
    - BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 10:22
      
      +1
      
      @Skramit:
      
      Ask me any questions and I'll try answer as best I can :)
      
      (I'm a sparky!)
      - bindtactics12 on 13/07/2019 - 16:34
        
        @BensonP: I realise its been 2+ years since this comment but I was wondering if you could help me.
        
        Recently replaced 3 downlights in my room from Halogen to LEDs.
        
        They worked fine for the first two days, but now the one in the middle wouldn't come on. I have tried interchanging the bulbs, still the middle fitting is the one with the issue. All are using the same transformer - PoweRun Electronic Transformer 410-60.
        
        However, when I plug the halogen into the fitting, it works, but LED does not. None of the other fittings have this issue. Baffling!
    - cristtos on 24/04/2017 - 11:20
      
      @BensonP: (disclaimer should follow)
  - BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 10:17
    
    +3
    
    Yeah this sounds right.
    
    More expensive globes are generally better. I wouldn't spend less than $15-$20 a globe. The Phillips ones are great.
    
    I've installed many a downlight and only changed the HUGE old transformers (Maybe 5% of time). This isn't because of incompatibility, but more for energy loss. Heat is power lost.
    - Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 10:27
      
      Thanks Benson, so in your experience, if my globes are running fine for a few days and one has gone, is it likely just a faulty globe or would it possibly indicate a supply/transformer issue too?
      
      With all the "potential" issues around swapping in LEDs and transformers etc, just makes me nervous that the other ones will blow soon too and I'll have wasted a lot of $$$ and effort.
    - John Kimble on 24/04/2017 - 10:35
      
      Thanks for the info BensonP! Just checked and I have MR16 12v halogens in mine.
      
      So you would recommend against these? So cheap! This is OZB! How can you tell me to spend $15 to $20 on one globe!? That would be $60 all up :(
      
      https://www.bunnings.com.au/osram-7w-led-dimmable-warm-white…
    - BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 11:04
      
      @Skramit:
      
      I'd say faulty globe. Rare, but it does happen. I've ran LEDs off iron core transformers at my house for 3 years and blew 1 globe out of about 20.
      
      If you are really worried, buy half a dozen and replace your most used lights for a month or two to see how they go. If they continue to blow, you might need new transformers.
      
      Also, make sure you choose dimmable globes if they are on a dimmer. Standard globes will blow on dimmers.
    - BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 11:06
      
      +1
      
      @John Kimble:
      
      I can't say if they are good or not. Lights depend on person to person. Some like 2700-3000k in a kitchen, some like 6000k.
      
      I get it. You're on a budget. I would say these will do the job for you without breaking the bank.
      
      (I take no responsibility for bad quality downlights or colour temperatures that you don't like.)
      
      Go to Beacon lighting. They are overpriced, but at least the globes are on display and you can buy elsewhere ;)
    - Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 11:17
      
      +1
      
      @BensonP:
      
      These are the bad boys I bought. http://www.philips.com.au/c-p/8718696678985/led-spot
      
      They are dimmable but I dont have dimmers connected.
      
      So just say another one hypothetically blows sometime in the next few months, should I get a sparky out to check out my transformer/wiring?
    - sky blu on 24/04/2017 - 13:14
      
      Hi BensonP, can you please link to some photos of 'HUGE old transformers' that may not work with LED downlights.
    - Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 18:20
      
      @BensonP: Hey I just swapped in the new globe and it's also not working. Would I assume the Transformer has blown? The other light on the same switch still works….
      
      Do I need a sparky to replace the transformer?
    - BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 19:05
      
      @Skramit:
      
      Firstly, take a working globe (one that DEFINTELY lights up) and plug it into the 'non working' transformer.
      
      Secondly, what kind of lead do you plug the globe into? Is it one of these? Or is it the porcelain one with the two little screws each side? I've had MANY of the screw type fail due to dirty contacts inside.
      
      You could try pulling out and reinserting the globe a few times to 'clean' inside.
      
      Otherwise, it could be the transformer and LEGALLY you would need an electrician to play with 240v AC installations
    - Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 19:44
      
      @BensonP: Its the first type - a lead. I can just see the black box it connects to in the ceiling.
      
      Is it bad to be using that light switch for the other working light if the transformer has packed it in?
      
      I've swapped all the lights around and all globes working. The socket lead must be dead :(
    - BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 19:54
      
      @Skramit:
      
      Nah you can keep using the light switch.
      
      If you are 100% sure the globes all work on different transformers, you'll need a sparky.
      
      Unless you have a multimeter to confirm…
    - Skramit on 24/04/2017 - 20:04
      
      @BensonP: legend thanks heaps. Saved me returning a non faulty globe… haha
      
      As a strange aside, the lights in the next room don't have a "shimmy" when I turn them on. Same globes I put in as the ones in question above. The set of lights with the broken socket have a kind of shimmy when turning them on. Would this be due to a diffeeent type of transformer?
jackofspade on 24/04/2017 - 12:43

It's probably not compatible with your existing transformer. Best to get the RETROFIT one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Philips-Master-LED-MR16-440-Lumen…
Ocker on 24/04/2017 - 13:35

Suggest that in the event you are using the old (heavy) iron core transformers then you replace them with transistorised units. A good choice is the Redback brand and will cost you about $8 each at Bunnings.
You should be able to replace the transformer by accessing it by removing the whole light fitting (it will clip out)- no need to go into the roof cavity
- BensonP on 24/04/2017 - 19:56
  
  As long as you're an electrician.
  
  You can't legally change transformers (unless they are they plug in one's) without a licence.
Yola on 25/04/2017 - 12:20

I had all my halogen bulbs, approx. 40 replaceable with LED for free as part of a government program. I am in also in Melbourne. It was done by an electrician and they are all still working at least 12 months later. Here is a link to just one company doing this https://www.energymakeovers.com.au/can-i-have-free-lights/.
StuffnStuff on 25/04/2017 - 12:36

+2

Long gone are the days of when a Bulb was a bulb where you plugged it in and it just worked with or with our a dimmer ! I've converted all my GU10 bulbs after finally finding a dimmable solution that actually worked. The MR16 12V ones are more complex, some of the electronic transformers will not work as the load from the LED globe is too small ie they do not output power unless they detect a load of over 10W so with most LED's being under they fail to light up. Even when you find one that works a dimmable solution just adds even more complexity to it.
I'm sure as technology advances compatibility issues will disappear.
It amazes me how the so called "long life" led bulbs that meant to have 10-15 year life span only come with a 1-2 year warranty yet still fail after 2 years or degrade in colour clarity or fade in brightness….. yet we are paying a big premium over the old incandescent bulbs for his convenience. Before changing to LED I worked out that the power saving payback time would be about 2-3 years….but that was assuming the bulbs lasted 10-15 years. If they really did last 10-15 years companies would go bust !. There's a great video on youtube called "The light bulb conspiracy" that reveals why things suddenly stop working !
sghetti on 27/04/2017 - 11:29

+1

I'll just add my recent experience with changing to LED MR16 globes.

I replaced all of the halogen globes left in our house with new LED globes from Costco (6W MR16). All was going well until I hit a blown halogen light (part of the reason I was replacing them). Upon plugging the new LED globe in, it flickered constantly. Tried another globe to make sure if wasn't a faulty LED, same thing. Tried a working halogen and it worked.

Also found another downlight where upon turning it on with an LED plugged in, it had a high pitch buzzing noise, after 30 so seconds the LED started to flicker slowly and progressively got faster.

Spoke to a mate who's a sparky and does a lot of work for us and he advised it's the transformer that the downlight plugs into. It just lies in the ceiling and if the house is relatively new (within the last 10 years or so) it should just plug into a 3 pin powerpoint plug in the roof. Went to bunnings and bought 2 new transformers to replace the dodgy ones, the LED's worked perfectly afterwards. My mate advised me that they were either cheap and nasty transformers that couldn't handle the low wattage that the LED required and tried to pump through too many watts. Or they were on the way out and weren't operating properly.

As they just plug into powerpoints, we didn't need an electrician. If the transformer is hardwired then you need an electrician.

The next step will be to replace the entire downlight with a nice new fitting, they have 10w downlights that have the driver/transformer built in now and they are supposed to be much more efficient, but at $15-20 each it's going to be a costly exercise to replace 40+ downlights. If I understand correctly, even though the LED is only 6w, most transformers run at 10-40w, so may still be drawing a minimum of 10w.
- Skramit on 27/04/2017 - 11:32
  
  Great advice, thanks mate. I have got a sparky coming round tonight to investigate. We had another blown one on the same switch last night. So I think the transformers all need replacing. I'll get the sparky to do it, i don't mind paying for electrical work as DIY makes me nervous on that front.
  - sghetti on 27/04/2017 - 11:57
    
    Honestly, I'm not a very 'handyman' person. When you pull the downlight out and the fitting off the ceiling, you should be able to pull on the plug that you plug the globe into. The transformer should just be laying in the ceiling and eventually come out, if you follow the cable back into the ceiling with your hand it should just be plugged into a powerpoint (no wiring required).
    
    Would save you a hell of a lot of money compared to getting an electrician out, isn't that why we're all here? :)
    
    If you can't find a powerpoint plug at the end of it, it could be hardwired, which then requires an eletrician to unwire the current transformer and wire in the new one. But as my mate advised me, he'd be really surprised if that was the case with any house built roughly 2000 and beyond.

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