Hi guys again,
So another close incident, similar to before, who would be at fault this time?
In Vaucluse, I was looking up the street(towards my right) to turn left. At the same time, the driver in the video going east did a U-turn across double lines. However, he was already on the road and I am technically meant to give way to him?
Given he came from a completely unexpected direction - I did not notice him until the last second. Barely stopped in time.
did a U-turn across double lines
That says it all.
I've got to say though, your peripheral vision is pretty bad if you're looking down the road for oncoming traffic but you can't see what's directly in front of you at the same time.
As I was approaching the junction the car appears stationary. Furthermore, he turned past the junction (Where you would assume someone would be potentially turning at).
It was a bit of a blind junction (in my opinion), so my focus was looking at oncoming traffic.
the car that did the u-turn is doing an illegal u-turn.
100% the car doing the U-turn is at fault. In the act of doing something illegal (U-turn across double lines) he could have caused impact.
Had he done an illegal U-turn 400 metres up the road and then you still failed to take care in the turn it wouldn't be the case - but in this case it was because of his/her careless and illegal driving that you were almost impacted.
+1
I could understand how he could've not seen it coming.
He checked both sides, clear.
He noticed the car stopped waiting to turn right (into his street).
And once he was clear, he started to make the turn…. and believing the other car should've been turning right as well.
The car turning right would've blocked his vision of incoming cars as well.
And if there were to be an impact from an incoming car, the car turning right, would shield his car.
Overall… pretty crappy move by that illegal driver.
That's why I'm extra careful on the roads.
But still, I got rear-ended badly couple weeks ago and there was nothing I could do.
The law is rarely black and white with these things. Even though he was doing an illegal U-turn you are meant to only proceed when safe to do so. It would probably be more his fault than yours, but you are still likely to cop something yourself. This is why people need insurance complanies so they can argue things out. The thing to also keep in mind is that cars have blind spots due to the car's frame so you need to bobble a bit to make sure you aren't missing something. People's brains are designed to follow patterns and anticipate; so the "tiger" doesn't eat you whilst you are analysing the situtation. It does mean we tend to act without having all relevant information and things go wrong when something happens we aren't anticipating. Glad you stopped in time.
The car doing the U-turn would definitely be at fault. It was not a safe U-turn. They'd fail the P's test if they U-turned like that. Officially the steps are:
1) Turn on left indicator and stop on the left shoulder of the road.
2) Turn right indicator on.
3) Check mirrors + head check.
4) Wait until it is safe.
5) Perform U-turn and stop on the other side of the road.
6) Turn on right indicator.
7) Check mirrors + head check.
8) Wait until it is safe.
9) Enter the traffic.
The BMW/Mini in the video did none of the steps, whilst the OP did nothing wrong.
In theory the OP could legally drive into traffic. The Mini would have legally been required to stop on the side of the road after performing a U-turn (ie. somewhere behind OP's car).
It would be difficult for them to justify in court how their U-turn would be considered safe. Especially since they should have noticed a car at intersection with turn indicators.
In Victoria, the road rules state that people doing u turns have to give way to EVERTYONE. This is mostly derived from national road rules.
Illegal or not; the person doing a U-Turn gives way to EVERYONE.
The OP was also at a Give Way which means he has to give way to EVERYONE too
Categorically not true - U-Turn has to give way to everyone. One hundred percent.
So someone at a "Give Way" does not have to give way?
Right.
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…
"The road that ends is marked by a line in the centre of the road and Give Way or Stop signs or lines. If you are facing the stop or give way signs or lines you must give way to all vehicles on the continuing road."
The mini was a vehicle on the continuing road, the OP has to give way.
@Drew22: Vehicle was performing a U-Turn and is thus not on the continuing road. They give way before entering the continuing road.
@Drew22: From https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r… under the intersections part.
Intersections without lights, signs or lines
At intersections without traffic lights, signs or road lines:
You must give way to any vehicle entering or approaching the intersection from your right
if you are turning right, you must give way to oncoming vehicles going straight through the intersection or turning left [this is what OP was doing] (except if they are using a slip lane).
@ThithLord:
The OP was at a T-Intersection and not an intersection, you'll see that the rules for them are different.
The mini was on the continuing road, direction of travel is irrelevant as the OP has to give way to all traffic.
Which cereal box did you get your driver's license from?
From what I read on
NSW legislation
69 Giving way at a give way sign or give way line at an intersection (except a roundabout)
(1) A driver at an intersection (except a roundabout) with a give way sign or give way line must give way in accordance with this rule.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
Note 1. Give way line and intersection are defined in the Dictionary, and roundabout is defined in rule 109. This rule also applies to T-intersections—see the definition of intersection.
Note 2. For this rule, give way means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision—see the definition in the Dictionary.
(2) Unless the driver is turning left using a slip lane, the driver must give way to a vehicle in, entering or approaching the intersection except:
(a) an oncoming vehicle turning right at the intersection if a stop sign, stop line, give way sign or give way line applies to the driver of the oncoming vehicle, or
(b) a vehicle turning left at the intersection using a slip lane, or
(c) a vehicle making a U-turn.
Whats the difference between a T-Int and a intersection?
Here you go, there is even a nice little picture for you.
http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/inte…
"At T intersections the vehicle travelling on the road that ends must give way to any pedestrians crossing or vehicles travelling on the road that continues unless otherwise signposted."
@Drew22: In all states, driver doing a U-Turn must give way to everyone. It's the rules, mate. I'm done here
@ThithLord:
And in all states the driver at the end of a T Intersection must also give way to everyone.
Jesus, you're thicker than the second coat of paint.
You must start your U-turn from the marked lane nearest to the centre of the road or, if there are no lane markings, the left of the centre of the road.
Before starting the U-turn you must make sure it is safe: check mirrors and blind spots and that you have a clear view of any approaching traffic.
You must not begin your U-turn unless you can make the turn without
unreasonably obstructing traffic. Give way to all vehicles and pedestrians and signal before you start to turn.
So
1) He did not make his turn from the correct lane - as you can see a car pass on the right. So a car indicating right on the left lane, could just be merging into the next lane. Assuming he DID turn at the junction (and not past the junction across the double lines) - the assuming would be he is going to turn right into the street I was on, and hence it would be safe for me to proceed. How would you know, in that situation, that a driver would be doing a U-turn instead of a right turn? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't.
2) He is supposed to give way first, before even starting his turn. I was approaching traffic and he did not check.
Even looking at what is stated regarding right turns:
Right turns
When turning right:
Signal right.
Move as close to the centre line as possible.
When turning on a multi-lane road, turn right from the right lane or a lane with an arrow pointing right. Turn right when it is safe.
In marked lanes, you must stay in the same lane as you go from one road to another.
You must give way to pedestrians crossing the road into which you are turning.
@Drew22: I cannot for the life of me understand why someone performing an illegal U-Turn gets right of way. Sounds like you're the one who is a few tools short of a shed.
@sky blu:
That is your interpretation, but the letter of the law does not say that.
Would you rather not stay on the safe side?
Not go through the hassle of justifying your point?
Not have to go without your car?
Live with a car that's been crashed and repaired?
Personally I'd take an extra 3 seconds, and play it safe.
@Drew22: I don't disagree, however the point of discussion here is "Who would have been at fault?" and of course we determine it in theory based on road rules (which may also differ slightly depending on the applicable state we are in).
The OP barely stopped in time and avoided impact. Put yourself in this scenario: you stop at the T-junction, check traffic of the lane you are turning into (give way), even give it another extra 3 seconds, yet the collision happens with the mini. When you review your dashcam footage at home, you realise that the mini has done an illegal U-turn. Now my questions are:
@sky blu:
Yes, I look both ways when entering a road.
There is a little thing called self preservation.
All well being in the right, but what good is it when you're dead?
You need to be aware of your entire surroundings.
hate to be the advocate of the devil, yes i agreed to all the above, BUT………if the OP had driven into the passenger side of the mini, i GUARANTEE you that the mini's insurer (assuming they have that) would state that the U turn had been completed and had no bearing on the collision as the mini was now fully in the lane the OP is turning into, therefore the OP should give way to the mini…..
my 2c
You were at a Give Way, you would have been at fault because you failed to give way regardless of the other person doing an illegal U turn.
The other did an illegal turn, but that still doesn't give you the right to drive into them.
Had an issue a few years ago, someone drove into my parked car, and argued that since I was very slightly outside the parking spot it was my fault.
I ended up winning
It'll be your fault if you hit each other.
When you're going/turning onto the main carriageway, you must give way to all vehicles regardless of what they're doing. You also have that Give Way sign where you must give way to all vehicles.
Other drivers could be doing something illegal like that U-turn or zig-zagging up the road - you must still give way.
no you're not meant to give way to him as he/she was making an illegal U-turn. I would've beeped at him non-stop if I were you.But good on you for noticing it even at the last moment or it will be an inconvenience for you if you prang the car even though they are at fault.