Hey everyone, so here is the story guys please help me out.
I found a guy on Facebook to renovate our kitchen. We signed a contract in November but they're was no completion date on the contract. We have paid him already 18 grand but still owe him $2300. He has no yet completed the kitchen and is complete screwing us around. So I ran Consumer business services and they found out he isn't even licensed!!!! I have no idea where to go from here. Is he legally allowed to take away our kitchen. CBS said legally he isn't even allowed to come back and finish the job. Please I would love some advice. Thank you
Unlicensed guy doing my kitchen
LJaneDoe on 16/02/2017 - 13:18
Comments
Exactly my thoughts. You need a licence to renovate kitchens?
Yes he's a cabinetmaker
You need a building licence to do any sort of building work worth over $5,000. This includes bathroom and kitchen reno.
bathroom, kitchen or laundry renovations
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Tradespeople/Home_buil…
Unlicensed builders can faced gaol time, and make your property difficult to sell (by making it hard to get an OC).
I'm in a similar position, not kitchen though - but I'm very pleased to read that they can do gaol time - but I guess this would be very rare. Fair Trading is currently preparing a case against my guy and I would love for them to give him some hard time for what he's done to me. I didnt realise that this was a possibility
Has he finished your job? If not, you will have a hard time too.
Fair Trade or even Tribunal only can enforce him to stop working on the job but unable to refund what you have paid.
Hasn't finished and I'm not expecting they will be able to get any money out of him which is why it will be great if they can get a custodial sentence
Lol why did you go on facebook to find this guy?
He had a page on there on his business
Link?
$18k is very expensive for a kitchen, you could've have gotten multiple quotes first, our one was done for around half that. I think you should contact the guy and tell him that you know he's not licensed and to stop wasting your time and see how he reacts because it is true that is is not legally allowed to come back and finish off the work.
Yeah. I think they should hire a solicitor and get that money back. Paying $18k under false pretense
I'm scared he will come and take our kitchen
Do you mean remove the work done already?
Yes
@Cherbii:
You don't have to give the contractor access to your premises, and they have no right to remove anything, especially as you have paid for the bulk of it.
I suggest you let them know you want them to complete the work ASAP so you can finalise payment of the outstanding.
Let them know, in writing where you keep a copy, that you require the work completed by (e.g.) the end of March.This approach assumes they have delivered enough work that you are in a position to be firm on the finish. If there is still a lot to be done, you will have to be a lot nicer!
Glue it to the wall so he can't take it.
It depends on the size of the area, standard of the cabinetry and fittings, value and number of the appliances etc.
Mine cost way over that.
u got ripped hard..18k for a kitchen..
Maybe its made out of gold?
It sounds like a lot my parents got a few quotes for theirs, highest was 60K!
sydney is a rip off
You cant even get much from ikea for a decent price
sydney is not a rip off. You are getting ripped off, nuff said
Sydney is well priced for kitchens but you have to shop around.
For the same equliavent kitchen NT and WA would take the cake for higher costs.
Most places quote about 7-8K for a slab of top of the line ceaserstone. Depending on how big your kitchen is, may easily take 3 slabs.
Maybe he's doing more than just cabinets. Maybe tiling too?!?
A complete kitchen make over, i.e. floor tiles, splashback, cabinets and appliances can easily up to $20k for a medium to large size kitchen depending on quality. So it's hard to tell
Individuals can be convicted for doing unlicensed work - http://www.qbcc.qld.gov.au/media-releases/conviction-12500-f…. You should contact your states department of fair trading.
I'm sure you realise now that you did not do enough research before undertaking such a big renovation. Live and learn I guess.
My answer is what I know from NSW, and I'm not an expert!
The regulations say you need a licensed builder for work over $5k.
You can become an owner/builder to conduct the renovation yourself and employ whoever you want, but you lose the protections of the building industry regulations. But it is cheaper, so it is quite routine for people to be an owner builder.
You would be responsible for the work's quality, building approvals etc, but I wouldn't be too worried about that. A kitchen is pretty simple and has few places to go dramatically wrong (as opposed to a bathroom or something).
I wouldn't be too concerned with legals/regulations.
More concerning is that you have handed over so much money before the work is completed. This rings all sorts of alarm bells for me.
In my experience it is normal to pay a small deposit, then progress invoices and maybe payments for fittings as they arrive.
That he has a lot of your money, and you haven't seen the work, is worrying."I wouldn't be too concerned with legals/regulations." There is more plumbing involved in a bathroom than a kitchen, especially where fixtures need relocation; However, unlike a bathroom, a kitchen will have a variety of electrical appliances, lights and power points; You may also have gas connections; All of which legally require a licensed person to plumb/wire/connect, in Australia.
Though these are all simple jobs (that many DIY people do themselves overseas), there are risks with improper wiring/plumbing/gas connections, (potentially dangerous), and all of them could void your home an contents insurance, as well as appliance warranties, should you have any problems.I would assume this unlicensed tradesman has done much of the work without engaging a licensed plumber/electrician/gas fitter to do these parts, in the absence of evidence showing otherwise.
Without seeing a breakdown of figures, it seems Cherbil may have been ripped off by the tradie, if it was $20k for labour costs alone. However, it could be $5k of labour and $15k in materials / fixtures, which if they were purchased by the OP, may be justifiable.
While we can't know the details from the post, I agree it would be a concern if their contractor is doing unlicensed plumbing/electrical.
I would be surprised if that is the case, however, as the law around licensing for builders is able to be fudged (how much is building work contributing toward $5k in value, how much purchasing cabinetry/appliances) while regulations are very black and white about electrical/plumbing trades.
So I would assume the opposite, that they did get tradies to do the regulated work.I think the OP was a bit concerned by the response they got from consumer affairs, as they grabbed their public servant pearls, swooned and said "OMG! They aren't licensed!" when using an unlicensed builder for a pretty minor job like a new kitchen is routine.
The licensing scheme was really set up in the first place to compensate people building houses who would pay a $30k deposit and the builder would go bust before construction started. Even though regulations say they need to be licensed to perform jobs over $5k in value, it is one of those regulations that isn't very useful at the margins.
The $5k limit hasn't ever been adjusted for inflation, to my knowledge, and really acts as an incentive for builders to pay their license fees into the scheme to act as insurance policy premiums for when there is a payout.I would actually suggest the smart course is to use an unlicensed contractor for lower value work if possible, and assuming you have enough common sense to oversee the work a bit, as you are highly unlikely to see any value from participating in the compensation fund that you are paying for when you choose a licensed builder.
I'm not sure what to say here - you've given him 90% of the total bill already so it's a bit late to try pedal backwards. It's a bit of a catch-22 at the moment and you don't really have much choice. It's very unlikely you'll ever see your money back even if threaten to or actually sue him and win.
$20K sounds like a lot for a kitchen. I do hope the bulk of that total price is because you've chosen luxury whitegoods and appliances.
How much of the kitchen is there left before it's complete? And how's his workmanship so far?
If you confront him about not being licensed, etc, you run the risk of p1ssing him off and he'll probably never come back.
Where possible, I believe it would be in your best interests (depending on whether he's done a good job so far) to allow him to finish the job (if he is even willing to). If not, use the $2,300 to pay a properly licenced person to finish off the rest.
bikies
… they do good kitchen renos.
Set up a secret camera, then politely go over the payment/timing/licensing issues with him again.
As long as he isn't doing your Mrs.
I am the mrs lol
Has the Mister been looking a little wistful lately?
Hahahah a little bit now that you mention it
Kind of off topic but if I wanted to renovate my own kitchen by myself would I need to be licensed? Excluding plumbing and electrical work.
In NSW you need a builders licence for work over $5k.
You can be an owner builder and take on that role, and employ tradespeople etc. to do the work.
But few kitchens would be over $5k in building work. Most of the cost is appliances and cabinets.
I wouldn't get a builder to do a kitchen reno.Yeah I mostly need to replace cabinets and tile the floors, if anyone asks I can always say that I did the tiling and cabinets separately and each cost less than $5000.
Exactly. Not that anybody will ever ask.
Sounds like you made some bad choices and got burned. You may have to accept your losses and start again with a more well planned approach.
$18k is a bit more than I would write off as a lesson. I think you need to pursue this.
You have paid most of the money. I think you should keep on pushing to get your kitchen done and try not to cause as minimal friction until it is done, which may be hard as he seems to be making it difficult, but work with it as if you tell him that he cant complete the work until he registers as a builder than your $ may be gone, but just get it finished ASAP and then complain…
How is it looking so far though?
It's looking not bad. But does that mean the kitchen has no warranty ?
If it's looking good so far that is a good thing. The appliances would have warranty if they are new, they are the easiest thing for warranty as you could bypass the builder and go to the manufacturer/distributor if they are faulty and as for the kitchen itself, I have a feeling you will know there is stuff wrong before it is finished… maybe a door is too loose/tight etc etc.
If you let it run its course you will be in a better position than if the builder thinks you are going to make a big deal out of stuff or become rude/arrogant or snarky.
Good-luck with it, though with any reno there will be issues, so keep up your good attitude :)
Depends what in the kitchen you are referring that has warranty.
Appliances = Store you bought it from.
Installation of appliances = respective to whomever installed them e.g. plumber/electrician (these guys should be licensed!!!)
Cabinets = Cabinet maker duh.and so on so forth.
The kitchen appliances will have their supplier's warranties.
The cabinetry may have warranties depending on whether it was custom made or bought in from a supplier.
The assembly is warranted by the contractor you hired. A licensed builder belongs to a compensation scheme for shoddy work. An unlicensed builder does not.Bear in mind, I can't think of any circumstance where poor workmanship on a kitchen would have a result via pursuing a builder via the compensation scheme, unless the builder just disappeared without doing the work. If the issue is less than major, the protection offered via licensing itself is small (different if you are building a house or something more major).
So if you can come to an arrangement where the work gets completed to your satisfaction, you will likely be fine.
However, before making final payment ensure you have all paperwork for the appliances (paid in full) and that you closely inspect the cabinetry for any issues, and raise them before paying. You need to assume anything you discover later will only be fixed at your expense.might have issues insuring the kitchen later
Why? you need to insure your kitchen separately? Most insurances these days cover replacement cost or just a nominated bldg cost anyway. I haven't seen insurance companies asking for individual bldg certificates on who installed the kitchen or bathroom or the corner tv cabinet.
what sort of claim would one make on the kitchen? and when you do, what sort of documents to they ask about a 'room'? i.e My bathroom flooded due to leak in the roof…. am I supposed to figure out who built my bathroom 15 years ago and provide documentation before they'll act?
PS: I've made several claims in the past for bathroom and kitchen leaks. Insurance companies typically don't pay to fix the source of a plumbing leak but will pay for any damage the leak causes. They have never asked for any builder info.
@gimme: you provide whatever the insurance company asks for, if you have a problem with that, talk to them about it.
Yeah, I'd be taking this path too. I'd also make up a forthcoming cerebration that you are having at home. Say it's on Mar 27 and need the kitchen finished.
We told him we want it finished before my sons birthday in March
I've gone to the trouble of logging in at work to agree with hell0's comment. Your number 1 priority is getting the kitchen done. If you kick up a fuss now, post on his facebook page, send angry letters/texts etc, he is not going to finish the job - no matter how in the right you are.
Put you concerns on his Facebook page.
That is a good idea… By posting on his page will let everybody know what he is doing with people and how bad is his business being unlicensed and so. But the thing is; he can hide/delete those posts or comments from his page and posting on his page would bring no result for the kitchen completion i guess?
If your experience with shitty tradespeople will be anything like mine, they'll simply delete your post then threaten to sue you.
Counter sue, tradies with no license and report to Fb that he try to hide helpful factual review
if his page is setup as a business page then write a review.Reviews cannot be deleted or hidden.
wait till the job is finished and give him 1 star .lol
How is he screwing you around?
Alot of information is missing here, in terms of % completion, what % do you think this guy is at ? Just talk to the guy, and ask him to finish the work before you make the final payment.
Usually you pay a deposit upfront of 10-20%, then pay the balance on completion. I've always done it this way and as long as both parties understand what is required of them, you should never have an issue.
What is he doing now that's screwing you around?
Exactly, i'd like to hear the WHOLE story, not just the bit we are being told.
For all we know, the Cabinet Maker is just waiting for the stone tops after the templates were sent in (sometimes a 4 to 6 week wait)
Lol ozbargain people thinking 20k for a kitchen is expensive. You obviously have poverty kitchens with non gloss, non soft close stock dimensions Bunnings cabinets, no glass splash back, poverty appliances, fake granite laminate, rubbish tiles, one PowerPoint, no tiling.
If this is what the OP is getting for 20k, then ok I understand. But kitchens add up quick when you dint have cousin Vinny doing the job, cash in hand with trade contacts.
Tell me about it, I just bought a 8K ring for my dishwasher and keeping her happy has so many ongoing costs. Even had to take her out for Valentines day.
Classic dishwasher, female joke.
spot on! 18k is not expensive for an avg kitchen.
Legally he needs a license, "Not having the time" is not an excuse.
"I'm a good driver, I just don't have a license because I don't have the time blablabla"
"I'm a good shot, I don't need a gun license blablabla"
I think the above spells most of it out.
If you are going to spell it out, best to make sure your spelling is correct.
So your a Women
So what?
So they have sweetnipples?
"So your a Women, who found a Cabinet maker on Facebook (of all places) and you are asking for legal advise on Oz Bargains…
I think the above spells most of it out."Wow. Lets play a game, who can find the most errors in this sentence. I've found the following:
So,* Comma needed
you're*
woman*
woman* No capital W
cabinet* No capital C
advice*
OzBargains*Plus the obvious error that you're a chauvinistic pick.
Let me guess, you're the cabinet maker?
just have to say….love your post!
Interesting. Am I the only one who pays a small deposit ($1k) and the rest upon completion of a kitchen?
ITT: people making blanket statements and then linking to state-specific information
Fool be you for paying so much up front. Usually 20% or 25% deposit to cover cost of materials and then balance on completion. All you can do is complain to fair trading
Can do in here too buddy.
why don't you get a licenced trader and ask how much to complete the unfinished work if he asked about what happened with the bloke that started the job just say you cannot talk about it as it is now going before the courts, best of luck
Some details
- This person you contacted is a cabinet maker, did you engage them just to build and install a kitchen?
- Or to demolish and remove an existing kitchen as well?Now from a technical point of view, i.e. legal.
You would need to obtain a building permit for engaging in works over the value of 5000.
However, if you were to have gotten a cabinet maker to basically project manage all that and obtain the building permit, it would be definitely over 18k.Most likely they would have gotten you to get an owner builder permit your self pay all the associated fees. Put all the associated trades under your name. And you probably would have gotten to the same point and still had no extra legal standing, i.e. you would have to provide your own home owners warranty, you would have to still pursue him to finish off his work the same way.
Sadly with most tradesman, you have to prepare to be disappointed, and then disappointed further.
The price for a kitchen varies heaps. Heaps of people could say that you could get a cheaper kitchen. Of course you can, but it is difficult to say without seeing your joinery that you were getting ripped off. 18k sounds about right for a decent kitchen.
Decent could relate to your bench tops, the finish of joinery, is it something expensive like timber veneer, stainless steel, 2pack etc, there is also the hardware, drawer runners, custom drawer inserts etc, your appliances, the cost of moving services. There is heaps of variables!
You should approach this cabinet maker and ask them when you should expect it to be complete first? Have they walked away from the job or they just haven't come back?
It's also common for tradesman to get non trade clients to put so much money up because they don't have a relationship yet with you, and don't want to outlay too much on a job that they don't know if they see money for.
Ask him to finish the kitchen off asap otherwise just sue the fool.
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/About_us/News_and_even…
The problem is not just around the fact that he won't finish, if the modifications cause an issue then you may not be covered by your insurance company and it might need to be disclosed if you are selling your house but you probably need to investigate that. You might be able to sue this guy to get your money back and get the work done by a real builder.
I normally go through these guys to get any work done.You can request people quote for a job.
http://www.masterbuilders.com.au/Whats not finished in your kitchen?
Where is the pic of the kitchen?
In my experience when looking to buy property, I think a lot of work done to places are done via unlicensed tradesmen. If they are providing a permit on what they're doing, then on the permit they will list you as the builder (owner-builder) which has some implications when you sell your place. This might protect them from providing you with certain warranties as well.
This is all going off memory when I was buying and selling, and I haven't bothered googling to confirm, but in VIC the implication is if you sell your place within 6 years (I think). Because any significant renovations (over some value I can't recall) requires a permit and if there is no permit, or the permit lists you as the builder carrying out the work, it falls under what they call "owner-builder". That means if you sell your place within 6 years, you must include an owner-builder report (137B report) in the section 32. If you don't and the buyer wants to rescind on the contract for whatever reason (even if they change their mind), they can if they find out you should have included this report and didn't. There are also some warranties you have to provide if you sell your house for any work you carried out as owner-builder (up to a certain number of years). Actually I think the 137B report is a way of protecting you against this but I can't really remember.
How is this enforced? Unless you claim the newly installed kitchen as a selling point in your home couldn't you just say it was there when you bought the house? I understand they could probably dig up photos from previous sales, but couldn't you just counter by saying they must have been old photos?
If there was a permit obtained for the kitchen renovations, then this will come across if the buyer's conveyancer/solicitor does a search for any permits obtained on the property. If no permit obtained, I agree the buyer will probably be oblivious to this. However with things like verandah's and house extensions, its more obvious to the buyer.
Never so much up front. Payment for materials first. 20% or so. Balance on completion or if agreed too. Progress payments.
OP - you got some random off Facebook? I reckon you wanted someone to work to a price rather than to a standard and as such it's now come back to bite you in the ass and you regret taking him on. You made your bed, now lie in it.
Soapbox much?
(profanity) much
I dont know how it could cost so much but also why people dont realise they are getting ripped.
Everyone who is wondering !!!!! We bought marble stone top benches which was half the price we paid the cabinet maker. So 18k isn't very expensive. Where are you guys all coming from lol?
Depends on the quality of the marble. Was the marble from the same cabinet maker? Since you are in Adelaide, you might wish to check out Adelaide marble House in Kent Town - great selection, service and reasonable pricing for customized work.
Isn't licensed to do what exactly? Is he a cabinet maker?