Hello Dear customers,
This Practice Padlocks with 12pcs Lock Picking Kit is on sale at Tmart.com and ready to ship today. There has a video "How to Pick a Lock With Hairpins" on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuT_63Ioig. It looks like a nice gadget, hope you guys like it and just use it as a hobby tool.
Tmart has 3 coupons can be used at this time. 5%off coupon: J5 for whole store orders; US$3 off when order over US$30: BD1; US5$ off when order over US$50: BD2.
Thank you.
hmmm, yes….a "hobby tool"
Thieves aren't going to bother picking a lock. They'll just lever open a door or window, or just smash some glass.
or use bolt cutters
Can confirm. Lock picks are for locksmiths. Thieves don’t give a rats arse and use everything except lock picks. Hammers, chisels, bolt cutters, crowbars, drills, grinders or even bump keys, but seldom do they actually use picks. Picking locks is slow and time consuming, cutting the lock off with a grinder takes 10 to 30 seconds. As for buildings, faster and easier ways to get in than "picking".
Legally, you are allowed to own a lock pick set. They are not "illegal" to own, just where you carry or use them that will get you in the poop. 3am Sunday morning outside a house that isn’t anywhere near where you live, bad. Sitting at home practising your speed picking skills for a tournament, good.
Source: I'm an apprentice locksmith…
@insular: Not so much here, but yes, there is world championships that are held where they get to open locks in varying ways in different classes. They are usually held in-line with hacker and security conventions… YouTube it, it's fascinating…
I had my place broken into once. No sign of forced entry. I always thought they either picked the lock or had a key.
Unless you always change the locks when you move into a new place SOMEONE has a copy of your keys.
@bigpallooka: That was a rental. But I guess it would have saved me a world of hurt if I just asked the landlord for permission. The cops couldn't do anything, unfortunately. They simply said to go check out the local pawn shops. At least insurance covered it.
@flaminglemon: The rental agent, the owners and their drug addicted nephew probably all had keys. You were luck you had insurance. A lot of renters don't.
customs took my last set :(
Seriously? Lockpicks arent illegal though.
i got a letter saying that my package was seized due to suspected to be prohibited item
You should've complained that you really needed your Home Dentistry Kit.
They are not a prohibited item and customs have no right to withhold them. There should also have been a number or reference to appeal the decision to seize them and they would have had very little to no grouds to withhold them. That being said… "government"…
If you want a set, you can buy them at plenty of places in Australia. No customs to deal with there.
I would have challenged that. The letter would have had a number to contact them and explain your case. I had no trouble getting my set from overseas and I'm in Victoria.
Did you perhaps order them along with something else that is prohibited?
Different state to state.. I understand in some states possession of picks can be an offence.
I'm in Victoria but I would assume it would come via NSW/Sydney?
it's also relevant for how you possess them. e.g. walking around with them at 3am - yeah, nah. compared with : having them in your house and having never been charged with a criminal offence.
otherwise i would have been charged with possession of a weapon years ago - e.g. I have several chefs knives in my kitchen
I'm pretty sure in all states they are legal to possess if you have a valid excuse (eg. I got locked out of my house, my car, etc). You will only be charged if you are caught with them and have intent to use them for a unlawful activity (eg. robbing someones home or business). So if they catch you with lockpicks, a balaclava and a pair of gloves, good luck explaining that one ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_picking#Australia
https://www.lockpicksaustralia.com.au/lock-picking/legality/
@altomic: Depends on the offence and the way it is defined.
In Victoria if you were charged with "going equipped to steal" under s 91 of the Crimes Act. The prosecution would need to demonstrate that you were in possession of the relevant articles while not at your place of abode. However proof that you had with you any article made or adapted for use in committing a burglary, theft or cheat will be taken as evidence that you had it with you for such use (s 91(3))
If police had reason to search your premises, they could charge you with you were charged with Possession of housebreaking implements under s 49D of the Summary Offences Act. In this case the burden would be on you to prove that you had a lawful excuse.
@cqbman: The citations in both those articles are fairly woeful. They don't cover all Australian jurisdictions. They don't cover all the offences within each jurisdiction. They also don't point out the fact that, at least in the two Victorian offences I've identified, the burden of proof is reversed.. that is the mere possession of the items is evidence of all the elements of the offence.
@simulacrum: I'd better get rid of my screw drivers and baseball bat then. They're both necessary for my hobbies, like how lock picks would be to locksport.
I'd like to think the police aren't stupid and won't waste anyone's time going after hobbyists.
@simulacrum: "Going equipped to steal". I am no lawyer, but as I understand it, that it has to be bundled with other break/enter items (hammer/bolt cutters, balaclava, etc…) and reasonable grounds (being 20km from your usual home at 3am) that you are in the process of or about to commit an offence (looking in someone's windows @ 3am). The same could be said for a knife at the same time of night under the same circumstances, but they are not "illegal" in your own house.
Having lock picks in your house is NOT illegal (even in VIC) and the only reason police would have to search your house is if you were suspected as having committed or about to commit a crime, in which case, you deserve to have the book thrown at you for having lock picks. Police don’t search the home of innocent people and a would have a hard time getting a search warrant for a "set of lock picks" with no other evidence as to their intended use.
@eug:
I like to think they're not stupid too. But, unfortunately some of them clearly are. Other's aren't stupid but do want to look like thy're making arrests to their superiors.
I think the difference for the purposes of s 91 would probably be that screw drivers and baseball bats are not "made or adapted for use in committing a burglary, theft or cheat", whereas lockpicks arguably are. s 49D, even more problematically, doesn't define what "implement of housebreaking" means.
Both offences are too broadly drafted in my opinion and open for abuse.
@simulacrum: Have there been cases where innocent people have been arrested for possessing lockpicks at home, or are you just scaremongering?
"Going equipped to steal". I am no lawyer, but as I understand it, that it has to be bundled with other break/enter items (hammer/bolt cutters, balaclava, etc…)
As a general rule you start with the plain meaning of the words of the legislation. So in this instance the words of s91 indicate possession of any article (singular) is sufficient. It might have been reinterpreted and elaborated on at common law, but I'm not familiar enough with any case law on this offence to comment.
and reasonable grounds (being 20km from your usual home at 3am) that you are in the process of or about to commit an offence (looking in someone's windows @ 3am).
With most offences, you are sort of right - it is necessary for the prosecution to prove the necessary mental state (eg. intent) to make out the offence.
However in this instance the way the offence is defined in the statute is that if you have in your possession "any article ", it is assumed that you have it in your possession for such a use. So if you were charged under s 91, all the prosecution would have to prove is:
The third bit would be the trickiest, but if the judge was old and curmudgeonly enough it seems quite likely they could make it out.
The same could be said for a knife at the same time of night under the same circumstances, but they are not "illegal" in your own house.
Again its the wording of the act. I can't be bothered looking it up but from memory you need to be "carrying" the weapon (ie on the street) without "lawful excuse" (ie you're not a chef going to work or a fisherman on your way to the pier with your fishing gear).
Having lock picks in your house is NOT illegal (even in VIC)
If it is an "implement of housebreaking" (and again I'm not familiar enough with the case law to know whether it is settled in Victoria) it most certainly IS illegal and punishable by up to 2 years imprisonment.
and the only reason police would have to search your house is if you were suspected as having committed or about to commit a crime, in which case, you deserve to have the book thrown at you for having lock picks.
If possession of housebreaking implements is indeed an offence, then perhaps they could apply for a warrant if they had reasonable grounds to suspect that offence was being committed? Not familiar enough with this stuff to comment with any confidence.
Police don’t search the home of innocent people and a would have a hard time getting a search warrant for a "set of lock picks" with no other evidence as to their intended use.
You may be right.. I'm not familiar enough with police procedure to comment, all I can speculate on is whether in theory it is possible to commit an offence by possessing lock picks, based on the legislation.
@eug:
Have there been cases where innocent people have been arrested for possessing lockpicks at home,
No idea. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say I think it's extremely likely that your average person would ever be charged with an offence for tinkering with lockpicks at home. I've been considering getting a set myself.. It looks like a cool hobby.
or are you just scaremongering?
Nope. If I wanted to "scaremonger" I'd say something factually inaccurate. I'm just speculating what the actual legal position is based on legislation. To me it seems that both mere possession of a lockpick and carrying a lockpick outside your house might technically constitute offences in Victoria, though I'd need to look in to the case law to be sure.
@simulacrum: YAWN And so the pissing competition starts…
S. 91(1) A person shall be guilty of a summary offence if, when not at his place of abode, he has with him any article for use in the course of or in connexion with any burglary, theft or cheat.
So, in your "abode" is OK. But "use in the course of", ie: committing the offence, or "in connection" ie: has committed the crime already, not OK… Home: ok. Not home: not ok.
So in this instance the words of s91 indicate possession of any article…
So I have hammers, screwdrivers, angle grinders, bolt cutters and drills in my work truck. On your logic, I am in the possession of items that can assist in break and enter… Yeah, I would like to see that stick.
offence is defined in the statute is that if you have in your possession "any article"
Again, they have to prove "in the course of" or "in connection with". If you are skulking around at 3am in "not your neighbourhood", intent might be easy to work out. Have a bag with other items in it or wearing blacked out face/balaclava, intent. Sitting at your kitchen table picking challenge locks for practice, yeah, that has intent written all over it.
a lockpick is an article made or adapted for use in committing a burglary, theft or cheat
Yeah, and so is just about every other tool you can drag out of a home garage. A set of picks in your top draw in your garage does not make "intent". And it would be up to the prosecution to make that stick, not me to justify it. They would have to show that I had "intent" to use them in a manner that was criminal. Unlocking padlocks on your sofa is not illegal. Now, if they were in your top draw, along with house plans and photos of a "not in your neighbourhood" house and a timetable of occupants leaving the house, well, that shows probable intent.
If it is an "implement of housebreaking" it most certainly IS illegal
Again, re: hammer, crowbar, screwdriver, grinder, bolt cutters… Are these illegal? No. Not until they get used or are about to be used to commit a crime, in the process of committing a crime or are linked to a crime that has occurred. Read the legislation again.
If possession of housebreaking implements is indeed an offence, then perhaps they could apply for a warrant if they had reasonable grounds to suspect that offence was being committed…
A guy with no criminal history who enjoys lock sports is going to have his door kicked in over a lock pick set… Find me a magistrate that would sign off on that search warrant. On the flip side, anyone with criminal convictions deserves what they get for having lock picks found on them.
At the end of the day, it is up to the prosecution (not the defendant) to prove that what you had was was/is/has being/been used illegally for criminal activity. The law is soooo grey that what you're suggesting is that the police can come to your house and seize "housebreaking tools" that encompasses just about anything a home mechanic would store in his tool box.
And I reiterate eug's question, do you have one case where a person has been convicted for just owning a set of lock picks. Not a career criminal or a case with "intent" clearly the motive, but just someone getting any jail time/good behaviour bond for simply owning lock picks in their house?
And if by definition scaremongering is offing up something that is factually incorrect, this conversation would go close to it.
YAWN And so the pissing competition starts…
@pegaxs: ..We have a different view of something then we discuss the disagreement. To me this is pleasant and if I'm lucku it might tourn out that I'm totally wrong about something and I might even learn something… it's not really a competition of any kind. Personally I don't feel confronted or provoked or offended or anything of the sort and I hope you don't either. it's just a normal, civil conversation between people that don't yet agree on something and are trying to get to the bottom of it. If disagreement to you means a "pissing contest", then I can only express my regret.
So, in your "abode" is OK… Home: ok. Not home: not ok.
Correct. To make out the s 91 offence you must be outside your abode. If you are in your house you can not be charged with this offence. (the same doesn't apply to the s49D "housebreaking implements" offence)
But "use in the course of", ie: committing the offence, or "in connection" ie: has committed the crime already, not OK…
Indeed, but subsection 2 could be read as providing guidance on how to interpret "for use in the course of". It states: "Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, proof that he had with him any article made or adapted for use in committing a burglary, theft or cheat shall be evidence that he had it with him for such use."
That is any proof that you had such an article with you is taken as evidence of the fact that you had it on you for that use.
So in this instance the words of s91 indicate possession of any article…
So I have hammers, screwdrivers, angle grinders, bolt cutters and drills in my work truck. On your logic, I am in the possession of items that can assist in break and enter… Yeah, I would like to see that stick.
You cut off the relevant part of the quote.. "made or adapted for use in committing a burglary theft or cheat". If you have a hammer that was clearly made at a hammer factory for hammering in nails and you haven't modified or adapted it for another use it clearly doesn't meet the description. However someone could conceivably convince a geriatric judge that a lockpick was specifically "made for" opening locks that someone doesn't want you to open.. I don't think that would be the correct view, but it is possible for someone to make the argument.
a lockpick is an article made or adapted for use in committing a burglary, theft or cheat
Yeah, and so is just about every other tool you can drag out of a home garage.
A socket wrench was made for committing theft? I think that would be hard to make out, unless you've somehow adapted the wrench for that purpose. I think the argument would be easier to make out for something that is specifically designed and made primarily for overcoming security measures, with no other use.
A set of picks in your top draw in your garage does not make "intent". And it would be up to the prosecution to make that stick, not me to justify it. They would have to show that I had "intent" to use them in a manner that was criminal.
What I'm trying to say (perhaps poorly) is that the way subsection 2, to me, makes it sound almost like it's trying to define a strict liability offence (ie that the intent is presumed as long as they demonstrate that the item is specifically made or has been specifically adapted for burglary theft etc). If it was read that way, then all someone would have to prove is that you were in possession of such an item. Mind you, the more I read this the less convincing the strict liability reading seems to be.. I think you might have me on this one. But I still don't think the strict liability reading can be ruled out entirely. ss2 is really troublesome.
If it is an "implement of housebreaking" it most certainly IS illegal
Again, re: hammer, crowbar, screwdriver, grinder, bolt cutters… Are these illegal?
If they are implements of housebreaking, then possession of them without lawful excuse constitutes an offence. I doubt anyone would call these items implements of housebreaking because that is not their primary use.
No. Not until they get used or are about to be used to commit a crime, in the process of committing a crime or are linked to a crime that has occurred. Read the legislation again.
We're talking about s49D of the Summary Offences Act now. I've read it again and I'm not seeing anything relating to "the process of committing a crime". To me it looks like if you are in possession of whatever the prosecution can prove is "an implement of housebreaking", then you are guilty unless you can prove that you had a lawful excuse. On the basis of other offences I'm sure being a locksmith would be a lawful excuse. Perhaps one could argue that if you proved you were a locksport enthusiast that might also be a lawful excuse.
At the end of the day, it is up to the prosecution (not the defendant) to prove that what you had was was/is/has being/been used illegally for criminal activity.
Perhaps for s91 of the Crimes Act. But not on a plain reading of s49D of the Summary Offences Act. Under the 49D offence all the police must prove is that you were in possession of a thing, and that thing was a "housebreaking implement" (whatever that means). The onus is then on the defendant to prove lawful excuse.
The law is soooo grey that what you're suggesting is that the police can come to your house and seize "housebreaking tools" that encompasses just about anything a home mechanic would store in his tool box.
Not really familiar enough with Criminal law to comment on what "housebreaking implement" is. but here's what some lawyers say about the equivalent NSW offence (which is fairly similar): http://bit.ly/2jXMfzZ
And I reiterate eug's question, do you have one case where a person has been convicted for just owning a set of lock picks. Not a career criminal or a case with "intent" clearly the motive, but just someone getting any jail time/good behaviour bond for simply owning lock picks in their house?
Nope. Again.. I think its extremely unlikely that anyone would be charged, let alone convicted. But its fun to take apart legislation. To me it still seems that under s49D, technically if someone can prove that a lockpick is a housebreaking implement, then you might be guilty of an offence just for possessing one unless you can prove you had a lawful excuse.
And if by definition scaremongering is offing up something that is factually incorrect, this conversation would go close to it.
meh.. If someone is scared by a bit of legislative analysis I'd say they are rather too easily scared.
@simulacrum: SIGH ok… here we go again, I'll dance with you…
49D: (1) A person must not, without lawful excuse, have an implement of housebreaking in his or her custody or possession.
What is a "implement of house breaking."?? It does not say "lock picks" and I put to you that a hammer is MORE of a house breaking implement of break-in's than a set of lock picks. Lock picks have little to no other use than to bypass locks, sure, but then again, a hammer can certainly be "adapted", as so too can a "socket wrench" all be it easier to explain at 3am kneeling next to a car 20km from home why you have said "socket wrench."
Fortunately for our society, picking your own locks at your own kitchen table for fun/education/skill improvement is a totally legal endeavour.
"Yes officer, I have these picks so I may learn the skill of lock picking as I wish to engage in understanding/employment in locksmithing and/or for the fun of security locksports/challenge locks. By the way, thanks for kicking my door in with your house breaking jack boot…"
Again, even under this 49D, I would say that your lawful excuse still exists. I also suggest, probably to your disbelief, that a hammer can be "adapted" to break into houses. And from my very limited experience so far picking locks, it is a lot less likely that any "house breaker-innerer" would waste time learning, let alone using lock picking techniques when there are faster, more "adaptable" tools at their disposal that require less of a learning curve and are faster… Hell, a "socket wrench" would get you into most houses faster than a lock pick set. This isn't the movies or video games here.
So, rule 49D and 92(whatever) the fact remains. It would have little to no effect on what you do in the privacy of your own home. Just about any tool can be "adapted" for "housebreaking" and the law is so vague that it would be easy enough to circumvent it (or abuse it if you were the police.) with a reasonable explanation.
PS: dont try that one with police at 3am 3 suburbs away… "Yes, Officer, these are my picks, but I am just indulging in some challenge locks before bed time…"
And cause i know we all like stupid laws here… how's this one for you to start a debate over, in the same section 49 you so longingly cling too…
SUMMARY OFFENCES ACT 1966 - SECT 49
Existing remedies preserved
Nothing in this Division shall in any way limit or abridge any other civil or criminal proceedings in respect of pigeons.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/soa1966189…
So, section 49 appears to be all about the rights of homing pigeons… Nice.
What is a "implement of house breaking."??
As I said in my response. Frustratingly the statute doesn't define it. I'd need to run a search of some case law to get guidance (though the law firm I linked earlier provides some guidance, without any citations unfortunately)
My guess would be that either it is something manufactured for the purposes of housebreaking or something that has already been adapted for housebreaking (I think the law firm I linked to earlier suggested a bent coathanger).
Again, even under this 49D, I would say that your lawful excuse still exists.
In my opinion an interest in locksport should provide a lawful excuse, Whether someone could convince a geriatric judge that it doesn't is a different question. In either case the onus would be on the accused to prove that he had a lawful excuse.
Being a professionally locksmith almost certainly would be a lawful excuse (the same way that beig on your way to a place of employment where knives are a tool of your trade is a lawful excuse for carrying a knife on the street).
It's fairly poorly drafted as legislation goes but I might do a search for some case law when I can be arsed lol.
@pegaxs: Yeah I noticed that! Both destruction of homing pigeons and entering premises in pursuit of homing pigeons are separate offenses! The way legislative amendments acrete over time can be funny that way. And s49 (along with others) is under "Division 5 - Tattooing of Juveniles" lol
@simulacrum: One of my favorite things too do when I'm scrolling through laws on AUSTLII is to start clicking the "previous" or "next" button until you get to the weird shit. ie: interfering with homing pigeons in Section 48. and like you said, finding out that its under a really weird or obscure division…
I love reading laws, but no way would I ever be a lawyer, and I know they make this shit messy just to make themselves seem smarter…
Now, if only I could find that weird one where it was something like, "bathing on the 3rd Sunday of the month under a full moon in tepid water will net you 12 penalty points." I know it's in there somewhere…
Good for unlocking those pesky public toilet loo roll holders to turn the roll the right way around.
the hero we need
The eternal questions is… "What is the right way around…" he may turn out to be the villain to some… :D
O:)
based on the patent, it's with the roll to the front ;-)
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/patent-shows-right-way-to-…
@shakoo: Thank god!! Bookmarked for later "In your FACE!!" discussions.
I think "roll to the back" should carry a mandatory gaol sentence…
@pegaxs: It saves on bog roll if you have a toddler or a cat. They both like to sit on the bog and hit the roll so it unravels all over the floor.
@banana365: Oh, that toddler pain… And they always look so proud, like, "look what I did for you daddy!!" My kids are past that now, but I never thought of it back in the day.
There was some guy "practising" on my side gate the other day.
Practice makes perfect
Can anyone vouch for the quality of these? Metal is strong enough to not snap/file away with use?
No and I wouldn't try as I don't want to ruin a perfectly good cyclinder. Just go to SouthOrd and get a proper set.
can confirm it gives you the ability to unlock bank vaults
And in the centre of the room there is only one thing. The card. Hmm, now how do I pick that?
A card can't be that heavy. Just use your fingers.
How to get that money out of the card? Picking it up is easy, the hard part is picking it to get the money out :)
Looks like a pretty unique gift idea. Has anyone used this kit or can recommend something similar?
Yeah I was given it as a gift because I had always wanted to learn. I think the show Burn Notice made me want to learn.
Anyway… it's fun to try and makes you feel good when you pick it but I haven't had success picking a normal lock with my newly learnt skills. Most locks are more complicated than this see-through one. Plus its 100000x harder not being able to see through obvs.
Are the tools good quality (as in don't break, work in other locks, etc)?
If video games have taught me anything it's that you'll break 5 lock picks trying to open a treasure chest.
Go to SouthOrd and get a proper set of hardened, cold forged picks. Don't potentially ruin a barrel by breaking one of these shit ones off.
@potplanty: As potplanty said. Get this kit, but only use these picks on the shitty plastic lock they give you, or on shitty cheap "practice locks". Dont use them on your good $80 Lockwood 270S70…
Once you feel more confident to actually start picking real locks (your own) with security pins and 6 pin cylinders, etc, then invest in a better set.
Mine didn't break and I tried them in a few different locks. It's not all about brute force with lockpicking. It's intricate. And I think if one did break, there are so many to chose from, you would find something comparable in the kit.
However, I wouldn't call them great quality.
@charlotto: I have two sets. My cheap Chinese "Klom" ones, that work really well and have never broken, and my mixed SouthOrd/Sparrows/Peterson for when I play with more challenging locks. And while the cheap ones are good for garbage locks, they are just made out of garbage steel and bend really easy. They are great to learn with on cheap locks, but when you start picking challenge locks or security locks, i like the feel i get from better quality picks…
Bought this kit before.
All of the picks etc. are fine and I could crack the lock….but the keys wouldn't unlock it haha
3 reports for being illegal. It's not illegal to possess lockpicks.
must be illegal if customs are taking them, i bought a $40 set from banggood last year and never received it but did receive a letter from customs….
$40 for a letter from customs - not much of a deal.
They are NOT illegal. The tools themselves are not "illegal". The manner in which they are used can be "illegal". It's the same thing as being out at 3am and walking around in someone’s garden holding a hammer. Are hammers illegal? No. Is carrying one around at 3am for no real reason in a neighbourhood that is not even close to your home, well, just maybe, it's a yes.
Here is a good page about owning lock picks in Australia:
https://www.lockpicksaustralia.com.au/lock-picking/legality/
dunno why people are negging my comment
what exactly did i do wrong here? my last set got taken by customs
Because you were lazy and just accepted it instead of challenging it.
You're not challenging the "Government" directly. You're challenging the decision made by a Government official who often and regularly get the laws wrong.
Yes, it's a part of my job.
Same price @ BangGood without a coupon…